IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2020-11-20
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19:10:04 * andythenorth stuck on silly company colour issues
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19:28:05 <andythenorth> can we have a newgrf var for 'vehicle group name contains substr [str]' returns bool or count (maybe just bool)
19:28:09 <andythenorth> I am not trolling
19:28:44 <andythenorth> would it be network safe?
19:34:59 <FLHerne> It would be, but why?
19:35:36 <andythenorth> "Coal trains (Railfreight)"
19:35:41 <andythenorth> "Coal trains (EWS)"
19:35:52 <andythenorth> "Stone trains (Freightliner)"
19:35:59 <andythenorth> look for the strings, set the appropriate livery
19:36:18 <andythenorth> I am just looking for any user-configuration point for trains
19:36:46 <andythenorth> I know cargo subtypes is the official method for adjusting train properties, but the UI sucks
19:37:11 <andythenorth> ctrl-click only offers 1 bit of configuration
19:37:21 <Wolf01> <andythenorth> look for the strings, set the appropriate livery <- fuck with translations
19:37:23 <andythenorth> and company colour settings don't work great in grops
19:37:49 <andythenorth> I started thinking about configuration via container, not instance
19:37:51 <longtomjr> Maybe there is a way to make the cargo subtypes ui better. maybe use a 2 column design?
19:38:36 <andythenorth> maybe but it would need to be n-dimensional
19:38:37 <Wolf01> <andythenorth> I know cargo subtypes is the official method for adjusting train properties, but the UI sucks <- then *someone* should address that
19:38:46 <andythenorth> subtypes are used for power, gearing, capacity, livery
19:39:23 <longtomjr> Yep, but maybe just a column for cargo type, and then whatever else the grf use the cargo subtypes for
19:39:33 <longtomjr> So you can get away with 2 columns
19:39:39 <FLHerne> Just do the UKRS2 thing and pick any suitable livery for the era
19:39:54 <FLHerne> Giving each train its own livery is pointless micromanagement
19:40:04 <longtomjr> Each group is fun though
19:40:50 <FLHerne> You could rotate them by year of build or something, if you really must have all of them
19:41:15 <longtomjr> I don't mind the cargo subgroup refit ui currently
19:41:22 <FLHerne> All class 66s built in 2000 are EWS, all the 2001 ones are Freightliner, blah
19:41:42 <longtomjr> but I agree that it could be better.
19:42:51 <andythenorth> I use the liveries to see different routes
19:42:52 <longtomjr> I am pro-liveries, I think it is fun to play with. I am however also someone that sits in the object and station menu, clicking and scrolling around for hours.
19:43:01 <andythenorth> I don't do all them realistic, it's just a side effect
19:43:12 <longtomjr> and still build terrible eyecandy
19:43:30 <longtomjr> I also don't care about having them realistic. I want them for seperate groups as well
19:43:47 <andythenorth> I already have all the engine livery options I could ever want
19:43:56 <andythenorth> it's the wagons that are puzzling
19:44:05 <longtomjr> especially in co-op infrastructure sharing games, where you run a bunch of inter city trains to the other players, and you want them all to look different because it is fun
19:44:11 <andythenorth> how about I just add colour variants of every wagon to the buy menu?
19:44:29 <andythenorth> e.g. 'box car red', 'box car blue', 'box car green'
19:44:39 <longtomjr> Can that not just be done with 2cc?
19:45:02 <longtomjr> and add a part to the description of the wagon saying what colors result in what livery looks?
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19:48:23 <longtomjr> You can just have it as cargo subtypes for the wagons, and then you can just multi-select the wagons in the refit menu
19:53:07 <andythenorth> I never use refit menu :)
19:53:12 <andythenorth> awkward I know :)
19:53:46 <andythenorth> I am trying to use side channels because I hate the official API for modifying vehicles
19:57:05 <FLHerne> Perhaps there should be an API for grfs to add extra settings per train/group/company
19:57:10 <FLHerne> Sort of extended action14
19:58:26 <FLHerne> But instead of specifying parameters it would specify a set of vehicle variables
19:59:10 <FLHerne> precedence would be train > group > [parent group] > company
20:01:05 <longtomjr> andythenorth, can you not just work around the official api for modifying vehicles since you can just generate with scripts?
20:01:13 <longtomjr> or am I missing something
20:01:38 <FLHerne> longtomjr: Then the vehicle list would be ludicrously unusable instead
20:02:08 <andythenorth> FLHerne I wondered about that, extensible [something]
20:02:10 <longtomjr> I meant doing it the cargo subtype way
20:02:27 <FLHerne> (possibly this is news to anyone who's used the station list with nine million custom tiles)
20:03:59 <andythenorth> I was hopeful about just using grf parameters
20:04:10 <andythenorth> but it's very definitively not per vehicle or per train or per group
20:05:13 <andythenorth> I could modify all the engines to only use 1CC
20:05:19 <andythenorth> and then set all wagons to 2CC
20:05:33 <andythenorth> then the group livery can be used for modifications
20:05:59 <longtomjr> Or have the engines be cargo subtypes (since you only need 1 cargo type for them, since they wont have capacity in most cases), and use cc for wagons
20:07:02 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Why wouldn't the wagons just follow the loco colorscheme?
20:07:25 <FLHerne> Not necessarily the same colour, but the corresponding one
20:07:26 <andythenorth> there's a sub-genre of players who like to use grey / brown etc for the wagons
20:07:48 <andythenorth> I can make realistic wagon liveries follow realistic engine liveries
20:08:10 <andythenorth> grainflow hoppers with railfreight 37s :P
20:08:11 <FLHerne> Yeah, so "if loco is green, make wagons grey, else if loco is blue make wagons brown"
20:08:24 <andythenorth> yes, I've got that in a grf parameter currently
20:09:03 <longtomjr> RUKTS has some decent livery selection options, only using the refit. Don't think there is anything for the cargo wagons though
20:09:21 <longtomjr> tbh, I would probably like to play with my wagons gray or brown in most cases
20:09:39 <andythenorth> the challenge is how to combine 'andythenorth chooses your colours' and 'you choose your own colours'
20:09:52 <andythenorth> without groups, it's very easy to choose your wagon colour
20:10:06 <longtomjr> Iron Horse 2cc, and Iron Horse livery set
20:10:32 <longtomjr> The target group is probably different enough that 2 grfs makes sense
20:10:52 <longtomjr> Maybe you can do something smart during the build process to just output 2 grf files
20:11:46 <andythenorth> it's not really a newgrf problem, in the final analysis
20:12:05 <andythenorth> I guess all I'm trying to do is fix that group liveries doesn't support wagon colours
20:12:10 <andythenorth> I really group liveries
20:12:21 <andythenorth> and I really like being able to set wagon colours
20:12:36 <andythenorth> so I'm just trying to fix OpenTTD using newgrf
20:12:53 <longtomjr> the 1cc engine + 2cc wagon seems like a decent idea
20:13:16 <andythenorth> I'd need a grf parameter for the second engine colour
20:13:18 <longtomjr> Maybe make that a parameter
20:13:44 <longtomjr> or just have a complement color that is automatically chosen depending on the chosen color?
20:14:02 <longtomjr> it is the lukewarm compromise, but for most cases it will probably be fine
20:15:24 <andythenorth> I think the find(string) route in group name would be interesting
20:15:30 <longtomjr> Also, doing these things with parameters does not really work great with multiplayer games
20:15:44 <andythenorth> nor for most players who do not have grf developer tools enabled
20:15:50 <andythenorth> 'Freight (green)'
20:16:05 <andythenorth> 'Freight (75:13 gearing)'
20:16:18 <andythenorth> 'Freight (slower speed, reduced running cost)'
20:16:27 <andythenorth> basically a text API to modify vehicles
20:16:47 <longtomjr> I honestly don't see the benefit of that over using cargo subtypes
20:17:03 <andythenorth> well it applies to the whole group trivially
20:17:32 <longtomjr> Hmm, I think I would probably just use template replacement for that then. but I think that is a JGRPP feature
20:17:57 <longtomjr> or add it to a refit at station command
20:18:24 <andythenorth> also the text API doesn't require looking through (for example) 192 options in the refit list
20:18:37 <andythenorth> refit to station can't and won't support subtypes
20:18:40 <longtomjr> but it does require you to know it
20:18:44 <andythenorth> same as autoreplace can't and won't
20:19:41 <andythenorth> I was thinking the text API could have a cult following, like commands in text adventure games
20:19:45 <andythenorth> with cheat sheets and stuff
20:19:58 <andythenorth> I could make a cheat sheet for Horse, printable
20:21:28 <longtomjr> The way I see it is that the refit list is like an ingame cheat sheet list
20:21:42 <FLHerne> andythenorth: I still don't really understand the issue
20:21:47 <FLHerne> > without groups, it's very easy to choose your wagon colour
20:21:57 <FLHerne> How do groups change that at all?
20:22:15 <andythenorth> the group livery enforces cc1 and cc2 for all groups in the consist
20:22:17 <longtomjr> But yes, scrolling through all the options to get what you want can be grueling (compared to just typing)
20:22:32 <andythenorth> * all consists in the group oof :)
20:22:44 <andythenorth> any other vehicle type cc settings are over-ridden
20:24:32 <FLHerne> andythenorth: But you can still set custom recolour sprites from the grf, no?
20:24:50 <andythenorth> yes, but I can't read the client's wagon colour vars
20:25:16 <andythenorth> the API will let me control player colours any way I want
20:25:22 <andythenorth> but the point is that players choose
20:25:29 <andythenorth> I mean, usually, I prefer choosing for players :P
20:25:36 <andythenorth> but setting colours is a player thing
20:25:37 <FLHerne> Wagons are generally either 'colourful' or 'brown' :p
20:25:47 <FLHerne> There's not much middle ground really
20:26:27 <FLHerne> So I think a grf-level setting for "wagons CC" <-> "wagons realistic" would work fine
20:26:50 <FLHerne> Where "realistic" means either "brown/grey" or "some livery corresponding to the loco" or whatever
20:27:06 <FLHerne> (which is kind of what you have now?)
20:27:39 <andythenorth> that's slightly outdated, I added more options since
20:28:30 <FLHerne> That seems like overkill, but ok
20:29:15 <longtomjr> Is there a rainbow mode? where each wagon gets a random color?
20:29:17 <FLHerne> That seems fine. Stop trying to solve nonexistent problems :p
20:31:14 <longtomjr> Hehe, i like that :)
20:31:28 <andythenorth> I considered making it actually rainbow cycle
20:31:31 <andythenorth> as a stupid easter egg
20:31:41 <longtomjr> Graffiti liveries would also be cool
20:31:49 <andythenorth> I can just measure position in consist mod(7)
20:32:12 <longtomjr> have every n'th wagon have a colorful graffiti look
20:32:19 <andythenorth> would need actual sprites :)
20:32:51 <longtomjr> I would settle for just having every n'th wagon colored
20:33:09 <longtomjr> but anyways, I am off to bed now. Good luck in your colorful quest. Night all!
20:54:22 <andythenorth> maybe I just remove this colour stuff :D
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22:17:00 <andythenorth> no maybe I just pick better alternate CC shades
22:17:02 <andythenorth> so it looks better
22:18:23 <andythenorth> oh I have an idea :D
22:21:38 <andythenorth> I can check lead engine CC
22:22:41 <andythenorth> if lead engine CC matches vehicle CC, it's probably in a group with group livery set
22:23:56 <andythenorth> I can infer that if they differ, player has made an explicit choice
22:24:15 <andythenorth> if they haven't, set colour according to parameter rule
22:24:20 <andythenorth> side channel trickery :)
22:36:31 <andythenorth> that will have the stupid result that if player hasn't set wagon CC, I'll over-ride their default choice :(
22:52:13 <FLHerne> You have strange concerns
22:52:31 <FLHerne> If the player hasn't set wagon CC, they probably don't care what colour their wagons are
23:06:22 <andythenorth> I guess it's about player having choice
23:06:46 <andythenorth> there will be a solution, I just need to figure out the edges
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