IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2020-10-14
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00:04:55 <TrueBrain> {{#if:{{{post|}}}&}} <- isn't that a noop statement? :o
00:09:28 <TrueBrain> in fact, it is broken :)
00:09:31 <TrueBrain> why do I find broken templates ....
00:09:48 <TrueBrain> funny, tt-forums fixes the broken URL :D
00:15:59 <TrueBrain> owh, redirects are not implemented :(
00:21:34 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #8123: "Unable to find local depot" on dead-end tram tracks (regardless of location) https://git.io/JfcIn
00:25:18 <TrueBrain> cool, a cycle in templates :D
00:39:31 <TrueBrain> {{other languages|en=NewTowns|pl=NewTowns}}{{-}} <- seems soneone was already doing what frosch is now doing :)
00:47:57 <TrueBrain> one weird way of avoiding a switch :)
01:07:13 <TrueBrain> lol, he exported "Requests for Deletion" page :D
01:21:57 <TrueBrain> right .. enough for one day .. it currently takes 25 seconds to render 1171 pages .. not too shabby :)
01:22:23 <TrueBrain> owh, and I can parse 1171 pages without error .. in the migration a few things need to be fixed however, but that is not my department :D
01:31:29 <Eddi|zuHause> <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause is #3 on the list of nick renames :D Gratz! <-- that must be from way back when i had daily disconnects
01:33:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i remember researching dbus commands to manually disconnect IRC before the scheduled disconnect, to avoid ghosting all the time
01:33:47 <Eddi|zuHause> that was a fairly gargantuan crontab entry :)
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08:32:48 <Afdal> My fail-safe high-speed track merges seem to be broken lately and I can't figure out why
08:32:55 <Afdal> Fix #7159: Waiting time at red one-way signals was too short
08:33:05 <Afdal> Is it possible that this is what caused this?
08:35:05 <Afdal> This track construction used to ensure that merging trains never slowed down by "unlocking" the two-way entry signal just after a train enter the path to merge with the main track
08:35:37 <Afdal> it travels just enough tiles to clear the exit signal behind it
08:36:17 <Afdal> but now the two-way entry signal doesn't seem to be responding as fast as usual or something, and it's causing trains to slow down as they approach it
08:41:30 <Afdal> My glorious, beautiful high-speed networks are no longer high-speed ;_;
08:58:59 <Eddi|zuHause> i've got no clue what's going on in the picture, but "wait time at red signal" is before the train gives up and reverses, that's got nothing to do with your problem
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08:59:40 <Afdal> isn't that animated for you?
09:00:17 <Eddi|zuHause> it is. which is part of the problem
09:01:54 <Eddi|zuHause> likely what's happening is that you got into an "evil mode". if one train ever stops, then this will ripple down forever, until you stop all trains and get a fresh start
09:02:14 <Afdal> No that's definitely not what's happening here
09:02:36 <Afdal> That's a high-speed merge that normally only allows a train to enter the main track at full speed
09:03:07 <Afdal> but the merging train is being forced to brake very briefly in rare circumstances where it didn't
09:05:00 <Afdal> I thought I was going crazy because those are the same old designs I've always used
09:05:11 <Afdal> but I think something about the game itself might have changed here
09:05:24 <Eddi|zuHause> it looks like the train merging in from the stop slows down at the curve
09:06:58 <Afdal> yeah, and it shouldn't, because that little piece of track with an exit signal is designed to "unlock" the two-way entry signal in the event that another train shows up just as the merging train has entered the merge
09:07:38 <Afdal> in effect the train entering the merge clears the exit signal and ensures the two-way entry signal stays green
09:08:17 <Afdal> but it's like the entry signal is slower than it used to be now, just slow enough to read red very briefly as the merging train enters and causing it to brake
09:09:04 <Afdal> a bypass to make old game versions read new version saves
09:10:25 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know how this was meant to work, but the entry signal (which can't be seen in the picture) seems to be red, because the exit signal is blocked by the "tail" of the same train, and the other exit signal is red because another train approaches from the straight
09:10:58 <Eddi|zuHause> so the train from the side approaches a red signal, and makes an emergency stop 1 tile ahead of the red signal
09:11:33 <Afdal> bah this is really hard to convey with words without a diagram
09:12:56 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not going to read that
09:13:29 <Afdal> there's an image so you don't have to <.<
09:14:00 <Eddi|zuHause> that image explains nothing
09:14:29 <Eddi|zuHause> it's like one of those clickbait thumbnails on youtube
09:14:59 <Eddi|zuHause> where they took a random image and put arrows and circles in to make it seem like something conspiracy-y is going on
09:15:26 <Afdal> I guess the caption is important too
09:16:16 <Eddi|zuHause> it's very possible the emergency brake thing has been changed since this picture was taken
09:16:38 <Afdal> Could it be that trains brake earlier before red signals than they used to?
09:18:04 <Eddi|zuHause> i still don't understand how that ever meant to achieve the thing it says it tries to achieve
09:19:28 <Afdal> then I have failed at making that article readable -_-
09:19:52 <Afdal> maybe it's time for a rewrite
09:21:16 <Eddi|zuHause> that's a problem i've always had with the coop stuff. it's always written in a way that assumes it's the only correct way to play the game. "do this. no exlpanation, as all other things are wrong."
09:21:46 <Afdal> lol I don't even play on openttdcoop servers much :)
09:23:16 <Afdal> But isn't it nice when your trains don't need to brake? Imagine a whole network where trains never have to brake ;y
09:24:02 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. but i'd much rather have timetables to achieve that
09:24:29 * Afdal doesn't see how you can achieve that with timetables
09:24:45 <Afdal> oh I guess with a low-density network timetables could do that
09:25:34 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think the current way timetables are implemented you can manage that on a larger network
09:26:19 <Eddi|zuHause> i tried doing that on a maglev line i once built which had one single merge in it. (two lines A-B and A-C merging)
09:26:37 <Eddi|zuHause> and then i still had to halve the number of trains, or it would break occasionally
09:27:18 <Afdal> Yeah I like to -pack- my networks with trains. A super dense network that never slows down is a beautiful thing
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09:41:36 <LordAro> but you also like to play with breakdowns turned on? you are a very unusual player :)
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09:42:22 <Eddi|zuHause> everyone here is an "unusual" player
09:43:20 <Eddi|zuHause> if you make a list of 10 things that players "usually" do, every person you ever meet will violate at least one of those things
10:03:04 <Afdal> well, I think I've figured it out
10:03:14 <Afdal> Looks like it might be a newGRF bug
10:03:52 <Afdal> this train set author might have made their trains ever so slightly larger than full-tile increments
10:04:07 <Afdal> because I can't reproduce this with base train engines
10:05:10 <Afdal> if the trains were a bit longer than they should be, that would be triggering this too
10:07:31 <LordAro> that would show up in the depot if that were the case
10:07:45 <LordAro> trains can only be made in 1/8 increments
10:08:33 <LordAro> so if they're 9/8, that would show up in the length indicator of the train
10:08:49 <Afdal> there isn't a way to deceive that?
10:10:05 <Afdal> Well I don't know how else to explain this then
10:10:46 <Afdal> if someone checked the train set trait for double-headed train
10:10:53 <Afdal> but didn't do something else they should have done
10:11:10 <LordAro> i think you're grasping at nothing
10:11:31 <LordAro> reproduce this on a blank map, to eliminate all other variables
10:11:38 <LordAro> currently you're blaming everything except yourself
10:11:55 <Afdal> I made a test save and have been fiddling around with it
10:12:16 <Afdal> I'm comparing newgrf versions here and this seems to coincide with a change made to engine length
10:13:48 <Afdal> but not length directly
10:14:11 <Afdal> the newgrf used to always display one-tile engines as two half-tile engines, and then some clever change was made to display multi-engine trains as still having a single engine, visually
10:14:21 <Afdal> This bug coincides with that change
10:15:26 <LordAro> that does sound a bit odd
10:16:07 <LordAro> i'm not sure if there's any "implicit" spacing between engines/wagons
10:17:22 <Afdal> Is there a way to download older versions of newgrfs off Bananas
10:17:37 <Afdal> I have the luxury of still having tons of old versions of this particular train set on my hard drive
10:17:45 <Afdal> but there's a few I'm missing that would be useful to test
10:18:06 <LordAro> (unless you have a scenario that requires it)
10:18:15 <LordAro> (but obviously you have to have that version to create the scenario in the first place)
10:21:58 <Afdal> -Maglev freight engines are no longer dual-headed and have an articulated wagon instead. Power halved to compensate.
10:22:10 <Afdal> This sounds like a change that could have inadvertently affected train length
10:43:48 <Eddi|zuHause> that's a newgrf change?
10:44:51 <Afdal> if I could just get some transitional versions for this newgrf I could really narrow down the cause of this
10:45:04 <Afdal> but that sounds like the most likely suspect
10:45:15 <Eddi|zuHause> you should just check out the repo and do some bisecting, then
10:47:29 <Eddi|zuHause> Afdal: the place where the source code lives and all changes are recorded
10:47:53 <Afdal> I've been checkin that out
10:48:19 <Eddi|zuHause> so long as that repo is public, you can recreate all intermediate versions for your tests
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10:51:33 <Afdal> All right, I better get some sleep. Whew, what a rabbit hole
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11:03:42 <TrueBrain> RecursionError: maximum recursion depth exceeded in comparison
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11:11:15 <Afdal> Yeah, it's almost like there's an extra invisible half tile of engine at the front of the train
11:11:32 <Afdal> that explains it perfectly
11:19:46 <TrueBrain> Poor frosch, I am spamming his mailbox :)
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11:19:57 <TrueBrain> okay, all en wiki pages parse now, as do fr, nl and pl. There are some things that needs patching up in the export, but overall, it seems this wikitextparser library does what it should be doing :)
11:20:13 <TrueBrain> but our wiki is very dirty :P
12:23:57 <rptr_> hey. i compiled the game intending to work on it a bit, but only the nightgfx set is working. i also have the game installed with opengfx,but can't select it in the menu. what do?
12:39:52 <LordAro> rptr_: something weird to do with searchpaths probably. where is opengfx installed, and where is nightgfx installed?
13:01:23 <Eddi|zuHause> rptr_: how did you install it?
13:01:51 <Eddi|zuHause> rptr_: if you downloaded a zip file, you need to unpack it
13:02:04 <Eddi|zuHause> if it is a tar file, you don't need to unpack it
13:10:11 <TrueBrain> depends; do you want lunch?
13:10:31 <andythenorth> that is a good idea
13:10:35 * andythenorth hadn't thought of it
13:10:59 <TrueBrain> right, that is it, I am out of here. I had my one good idea, it is over now. Ciao all!
13:11:11 <andythenorth> also my office is my kitchen
13:11:17 <andythenorth> so I don't have to go far
13:11:23 <TrueBrain> sounds like a terrible idea :P
13:18:11 <rptr_> i installed openttd + opengfx with apt-get. then i downloaded the source from git and also built that in another dir
13:18:21 <rptr_> so that i can play both the release and from master branch
13:19:03 <LordAro> i think apt-installed version has different search paths
13:19:23 <LordAro> so you'll probably need to download opengfx again (via ingame content should be fine)
13:19:35 <Eddi|zuHause> probably /usr/share vs. /usr/local/share
13:19:43 <LordAro> search paths are often confusing
13:20:16 <Eddi|zuHause> you can probably do some symlinking to help this, or building the source with various configure options that i can't explain to you
13:20:29 <rptr_> also the introduction screen is just an empty ocean :D
13:20:45 <rptr_> yeah i am sure there is an option for that. oh well
13:20:45 <Eddi|zuHause> well, that's when it can't find the title savegame
13:33:04 <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: "configure options" what is this configure of which you speak? :p
13:44:35 <andythenorth> hmm was it lunch?
13:47:03 <TrueBrain> now go take a nap instead
13:49:59 <andythenorth> I think I'm actually going to spend 10 mins trying to address the weird hiring inequality in the tech industry
13:51:10 <andythenorth> I'm also going to eat mac + cheese
13:51:17 <andythenorth> which peter used to tell me was impossible
13:51:24 <andythenorth> as it's a non-existent food type
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14:29:26 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: which inequality? the one where fewer women are hired, or the one where fewer women apply?
14:29:57 <andythenorth> the one where employers can't find anyone to hire
14:30:05 <andythenorth> but people trying to get into the industry can't find any jobs
14:31:01 <Eddi|zuHause> there's this "minimum 3 years work experience" thing, where nobody can get any work experience
14:35:11 <TrueBrain> and this is why every sane company should invest in "juniors" or "trainees"
14:35:24 <TrueBrain> I have seen the best people grow in a few months because they were given a chance
14:35:41 <TrueBrain> for some reason, those not in the industry are a lot more motivated :D
14:42:59 <andythenorth> we used to entirely run the business on new entrants
14:43:15 <andythenorth> but then we hit a point where we couldn't sustain the mess any more, it would have sunk us
14:43:26 <andythenorth> so we banned all trainee, placement, intern, graduate jobs
14:43:36 <andythenorth> now I might have to fix that
14:43:57 <Eddi|zuHause> there might be some middle ground :)
14:44:03 <andythenorth> it's so dull sorting out all their crap though
14:44:17 <TrueBrain> there has to be a balance, yes
14:44:25 <TrueBrain> not "all" nor "none"
14:44:33 <andythenorth> previously we've had to do stuff like find them a flat (we had one living in the office)
14:44:35 <TrueBrain> like 1/4th .. or something :P
14:44:39 <andythenorth> restructure their debts
14:44:50 <andythenorth> sort out their toxic house share situation
14:45:03 <andythenorth> help them with banking
14:45:18 <andythenorth> it's very like parenting
14:45:36 <andythenorth> teach them to turn up when needed etc
14:45:50 <Eddi|zuHause> can you teach me? :p
14:48:30 <andythenorth> as I am a bad teacher
14:48:37 <andythenorth> and you are probably a bad pupil
14:48:42 <andythenorth> I do not rate our chances highly
15:10:58 <TrueBrain> meh; to render wiki pages you have to inspect all images on the page
15:11:01 <TrueBrain> that is expensive :P
15:19:24 <TrueBrain> owh, I think I can avoid it .. pfew :D
15:19:29 <TrueBrain> it is just mediawiki being weird
15:33:23 <Timberwolf> I find this really hard, even at the "entrant" level you're already fighting several years of inequality between "my parents bought me a computer and were happy with me messing about on it all day" vs. "I had to go to the library for computer access and my parents told me computers weren't for my gender/ethnicity/whatever"
15:34:36 * Timberwolf found with juniors you could get very far as long as you had at least one "team parent" they worked closely with.
15:35:25 <TrueBrain> coaching is key; but that holds for any position, even MDs :)
15:35:38 <andythenorth> I don't have coaching
15:35:43 <andythenorth> I have shareholders :|
15:35:50 <TrueBrain> this was too easy :P
15:36:24 <TrueBrain> any job is 10 times harder if nobody is helping you out; but mind you, this doesn't have to be someone in the company
15:36:34 <andythenorth> I did have coaching once, we disagreed
15:36:53 <TrueBrain> coaching is a loaded term; someone with who you can talk shit over and can guide you to possible solutions :)
15:37:10 <Timberwolf> I think a big part is not trying to over-control it. We used to go with the approach of, "here is the problem, this is where you can go to find information, these are the people you can ask for help".
15:37:18 <TrueBrain> something a manager told me a few years ago .. what-ever you do, always make sure you can call someone up and say: help!
15:37:49 <andythenorth> I think we'd need to screen candidates for expectations
15:38:03 <TrueBrain> Timberwolf: it is a difficult line to walk .. not enough helping, and they spend days of doing the complete wrong thing .. too much helping, and they never learn
15:38:03 <Timberwolf> That got much better results than the sort of "you are internship level A, you can work on these training exercises until you reach level B, where we will give you some simple pre-approved tasks and instructions how you should solve them"
15:38:06 <andythenorth> the reality of product engineering is that the time is spent like this:
15:38:09 <TrueBrain> it is like a toddler :)
15:38:12 <andythenorth> 30% making the build work
15:38:18 <andythenorth> 30% answering infosec questions
15:38:27 <andythenorth> 30% in essential meetings with the rest of the company
15:38:44 <TrueBrain> you want people that are 90% efficient? That ... is a hard goal to reach :P
15:39:01 <TrueBrain> how about: 20% talking shit with your coworkers? :D
15:39:14 <andythenorth> I normalised the scale
15:39:38 <andythenorth> _some_ new entrants expect more like 100% writing glamorous code and being thanked for it by the whole company
15:39:49 <andythenorth> or maybe I just got burnt by the last couple I tried to train
15:40:00 <andythenorth> probably had another 20 that were humble and diligent
15:40:18 <Timberwolf> Heh. Definitely encountered some of those.
15:41:06 <TrueBrain> like it is pretty common in this world, a few think they are the best and everyone should bow to them .. just check Idols or whatever .. it is parents failing to teach children that failure is a normal part of life
15:41:30 <TrueBrain> "my child is the best" attitude
15:41:35 <TrueBrain> they can just fuck the right off :D
15:41:51 <Timberwolf> "I've been in your broadband comparison company 3 weeks and I've decided I want to rewrite the entire product search"
15:42:36 <TrueBrain> in a Physics class, 3rd year university, a 1st year dropped by, to tell the teacher we got it wrong: gravity doesn't pull, it pushes us down
15:42:56 <TrueBrain> doing these kind of things ... rarely ... end well ... for you .....
15:43:17 <TrueBrain> (in reality, gravity doesn't push nor pull, but let's not get into that :D)
15:43:55 <Timberwolf> In that case we used to use "how do you deal with the problem that sometimes you can get two or three Sky addons for a much lower price by randomly adding Movies to the bundle, even if the customer doesn't want Movies?"
15:44:22 <Timberwolf> The people who should actually be trusted to rewrite search already have an answer :)
15:46:18 <Timberwolf> The ones who say, "that's not possible, you can't make it cheaper by adding things" you... find some way to redirect their energy.
15:46:51 <Eddi|zuHause> <TrueBrain> (in reality, gravity doesn't push nor pull, but let's not get into that :D) <-- it kinda does both, hence you get an oblong shape from tidal forces
15:47:33 <TrueBrain> it is no force, so it cannot push nor pull :D
15:47:56 <Timberwolf> aand I realise I've just described the, "I've been playing your OpenTTD game three weeks and have the following pull request to deal with fundamental issues in the game's economic model" situation.
15:47:57 <andythenorth> isn't gravity just the effect of bending a linear surface?
15:48:03 * andythenorth did philosophy not physics
15:48:16 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: of course, gravity is a lie. it's all dipoles!
15:48:21 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: it is the more popular theory, yes, anyway, sort of, what-ever :P
15:48:37 <andythenorth> the weird thing is
15:48:37 <TrueBrain> Timberwolf: yup :D We have plenty of those :P
15:48:59 <Eddi|zuHause> Timberwolf: more like "let's rewrite this in <random hype language>"
15:49:03 <andythenorth> if you try the thing where you draw a straight line on curved sheet of paper
15:49:03 <TrueBrain> gravity is our failure of only thinking in 3 dimensions :P
15:49:27 <andythenorth> best philosophy lecture we had
15:49:39 <andythenorth> large biscuit tin, pencil, tape, sheet of A4 paper
15:49:47 <TrueBrain> but given we have a 50/50 odd we live in a simulation, nothing is relevant anyway :P
15:50:01 <Timberwolf> I did drinking and trying to fix my piece of junk car.
15:50:06 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: now you're talking like someone arguing whether it's centrifugal force or centripetal force
15:50:11 <andythenorth> Timberwolf in that order?
15:50:51 <TrueBrain> I was wondering how you would drink a piece of junk car .. :D
15:50:52 <Timberwolf> No, although the latter may have worked better if I had.
15:52:05 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure there's a very narrow band of drinkage that would let you repair cars better
15:52:10 <Eddi|zuHause> but that's easy to overshoot
15:52:32 <Timberwolf> It used to like those comedy clown car sort of breakdowns, too.
15:53:01 <Timberwolf> Like one day I left the house and the first turn I came to the passenger door swung open.
15:54:30 <Eddi|zuHause> that means either you have a very weird door lock, or you take turns very weirdly
15:56:47 <andythenorth> hmm diagonal bridges anyone?
15:56:55 <Timberwolf> It was a cold day, and what had happened was water had got into the mechanism and then iced up, so when you opened the door the spring that'd close the catch didn't move.
15:57:28 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: is this where i come up with a better, more fexible, system, that is utterly unimplementable?
15:57:53 <andythenorth> that's an empirical question
15:58:50 <andythenorth> diagonal tunnels would be rather simpler
15:58:56 <andythenorth> no newgrf spec :P
15:59:29 <andythenorth> but they wouldn't work, because the entrances would span 2 tiles
15:59:37 <Eddi|zuHause> tunnel heads have a newgrf spec
16:00:10 <Eddi|zuHause> which is mostly a "we don't implement any of that"
16:00:35 <andythenorth> maybe I should patch stations to have bigger catchment
16:00:50 <andythenorth> the diagonals is just one solution to constrained space
16:00:54 <andythenorth> there are others
16:01:08 <Eddi|zuHause> but cargodist and distant-join makes that mostly obsolete
16:04:30 * andythenorth does not play tidy coop style
16:08:29 <TrueBrain> well, "fast" .. images are not being served via nginx :P
16:09:27 <andythenorth> shall I stress test it :P
16:09:51 <andythenorth> we should make it bigger though
16:10:47 <TrueBrain> mediawiki is full of crap, I can promise you :) How it handles images .. is one of them :P
16:11:15 <TrueBrain> as Gollum failed to render that < 5s
16:11:49 <TrueBrain> that NewGRF page has almost everything .. weird lists, images in weird ways, etc
16:11:54 <TrueBrain> is a nice page to test with
16:12:08 <TrueBrain> btw, tables don't work .. at all :P They just disappear :)
16:12:53 <TrueBrain> but, this is a nice proof-of-concept, that we can write our own wiki-frontend .. it is < 400 lines of code
16:14:00 <glx> missing image in the "warning" block on coding style page
16:14:29 <TrueBrain> yeah, the export is not 100%
16:14:39 <TrueBrain> frosch has a huge list of stuff to fix for me :)
16:14:55 <glx> and the commit hook section looks weird
16:15:07 <glx> other than that it's quite good
16:15:20 <TrueBrain> yeah, "space" at the start of the line should be <pre> blocks, but .. that is difficult
16:15:28 <TrueBrain> there are also missing <p>s everywhere
16:17:05 <TrueBrain> I like the gollum way of rendering a wiki much more than mediawiki
16:17:13 <TrueBrain> full-width is just annoying these days :P
16:17:24 <TrueBrain> how things have changed :D
16:18:22 <TrueBrain> "Authors of commits since 2004 are listed on GitHub None " <- I like these bugs .. "None"? :D
16:19:37 <TrueBrain> hmm, ngrok is bouncing via US .. lets see if I can fix that ..
16:22:15 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone updated pull request #8308: Feature: Add cargo filter support to vehicle list. https://git.io/JU4lE
16:24:19 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone updated pull request #8304: Feature: Show the cargoes the vehicles can carry in the list window. https://git.io/JU3kc
16:25:33 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone updated pull request #8307: Feature: Show group name as part of the default vehicle name. https://git.io/JU4lR
16:26:54 <TrueBrain> the pages currently render 3 times faster than mediawiki .. lol
16:30:37 <TrueBrain> lol, and with 33MB of RAM
16:32:02 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #8304: Feature: Show the cargoes the vehicles can carry in the list window. https://git.io/JTYEx
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17:15:52 <TrueBrain> our wiki is such a good test-case for this library :) The biggest nonsense ... and for 99% it does what it should do .. but it is very good at finding the 1% :D
17:17:41 <TrueBrain> how many lists just skip the first level,for example .. it is funny :)
17:19:36 <glx> mediawiki syntax is so weird, it's easy to write bad thing properly rendered in mediawiki itself, but wrong everywhere else
17:20:48 <glx> and it's probably worse if people used integrated wysiwyg
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19:11:52 <TrueBrain> sorry frosch123 for the massive issue :P It was easier that way :)
19:14:14 <frosch123> i think i'll create a list of what old page got mapped to which new page, and which got trashed.
19:14:38 <frosch123> but i don't think setting up redirects for all pages is useful
19:15:13 <frosch123> though if you have some crystal ball that tells the 10 most externally linked wiki pages :p
19:15:16 <TrueBrain> least we can do is a pass to rewrite all links
19:15:34 <TrueBrain> I for sure can give you a list of all entry points to the wiki :)
19:15:46 <TrueBrain> but I don't really care about keeping links intact for now
19:15:53 <TrueBrain> as long as the links on the pages work :)
19:17:22 <frosch123> TrueBrain: i hope truewiki will forbid creating pages which only differ in case
19:17:32 <glx> worst case you can redirect links to search page
19:17:34 <TrueBrain> hahahaha, I like that name :P
19:17:35 <frosch123> that's the biggest annoiance in migration
19:17:56 <TrueBrain> I was wondering if we shouldn't just lowercase files on disk, and ignore cases when the page is requested
19:18:13 <frosch123> then you have to store the real title inside the file
19:18:25 <TrueBrain> switching to Markdown you say? :P
19:18:30 <frosch123> funnily gollum had an option for that
19:18:34 <TrueBrain> but no, fixing all the links should not be difficult
19:18:47 <TrueBrain> it is just a massive calculation, but meh
19:19:49 <TrueBrain> there are so many lists that are invalid lists; those that start at level=2
19:19:50 <andythenorth> not the weird wiki markup? :o
19:20:26 <frosch123> we have two manual of style!
19:20:44 <TrueBrain> and they are totally different ... lol
19:21:04 <TrueBrain> I like the first more :)
19:21:26 <Eddi|zuHause> ... and probably both were introduced by overly enthusiastic indivuals and never officially adopted by anyone?
19:22:48 <frosch123> oh, they are actually different things...
19:22:57 <TrueBrain> I now have a list, that starts at level 1, and jumps to level 3 .. my code to fix these things fails .. hmm
19:22:59 <frosch123> the latter is about the wiki, the former about the game
19:30:41 <TrueBrain> right, solved that ..
19:31:01 <TrueBrain> okay, two "bugs" that I am unsure how to fix ... 1 is when people do <custom> in text .. mediawiki has a whitelist of tags it allows to go through HTML
19:31:06 <TrueBrain> the others it replaces with < etc
19:31:15 <TrueBrain> and the other bug is <pre> block if a line starts with spaces
19:31:26 <TrueBrain> wikitextparser doesn't help with those cases .. hmmm
19:35:38 <TrueBrain> "Unknown WikiLink Main/en/Main talk:Hotkeys"
19:35:47 <TrueBrain> those Talk pages keep popping up :D
19:36:48 <frosch123> i excluded them from the migration by default :)
19:37:07 <TrueBrain> I also saw a lot of references to "Archive"
19:37:19 <TrueBrain> but we will flush these things out :)
19:37:47 <TrueBrain> Main:Hotkeys page broke a bit with export too, I see
19:38:39 <TrueBrain> euh, just "Hotkeys" :P
19:39:04 <TrueBrain> {{merge|Hidden features|discuss=Talk:Hotkeys|date=20 September 2018}}
19:41:38 <TrueBrain> ah, parsing failed because "Main/en/{{NAMESPACE}}"
19:41:54 <TrueBrain> frosch123: seems with {{NAMESPACE}} you shouldn't prefix Main/en .. or just replace {{NAMESPACE}} with Main/en :P
19:42:45 <TrueBrain> I resolve NAMESPACE to Main, making the URL Main/en/Main :D
19:44:05 <TrueBrain> I am honestly not sure that prefixing with Main/en is a good idea btw
19:44:11 <TrueBrain> I guess it is needed to make Gollum happy?
19:44:23 <TrueBrain> but it is quiet a chore for authors to do that
19:44:51 <frosch123> "main" is only a placeholder, it will get worse :)
19:45:12 <TrueBrain> what ... are you planning? :)
19:45:18 <frosch123> anyway, when creating new pages in gollum, it suggested the "current directory" by default
19:45:48 <TrueBrain> yeah, so pages in Main/en/ don't need prefixing with it?
19:48:18 <TrueBrain> ":;Step3: Add trees: place" <- pretty sure they did not intend to make that do what it does .. but it does look pretty
19:48:45 <TrueBrain> (it is a list starting at level 2, containing 2 items, "Step 3" and "Add treees: place ...")
19:49:07 <frosch123> but... step 3 is profit!
19:49:55 <TrueBrain> it heavily confuses wikitextparser :D
19:50:18 <TrueBrain> I am pretty sure that most of what mediawiki renders is due to PHP bugs
19:51:40 <TrueBrain> I do not want to create more bugs .. I already have a few weird ones open, which the author can hopefully fix :D
19:51:56 <DorpsGek_III> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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19:52:57 <frosch123> most of the slovak translation changes are adding ^ ´ to letters
19:53:08 <frosch123> i guess previous translators didn't bother :)
19:54:44 <TrueBrain> owh, the ":;Step3: bla" is by specs .. well, sort of
19:54:51 <TrueBrain> it should be: ";Step3: bla"
20:32:56 <TrueBrain> okay, this definition list really needs a fix in wikitextparser .. it seems the regex is mixing up the order .. but I do not really understand :D
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21:01:49 <TrueBrain> HA! They render as they should :D
21:02:53 <TrueBrain> and yes, the image is still the wrong width, I know :D
21:04:01 <frosch123> where is that magnifier icon from?
21:04:59 <frosch123> table at the bottom is centered in original, thought left looks better
21:05:42 <TrueBrain> yeah, table support is not fully there
21:05:51 <frosch123> ah, you render all links in blue, even dead ones
21:07:05 <TrueBrain> yeah; it currently only tells me on console the link is dead
21:07:48 <TrueBrain> I miss a lot of stuff currently :)
21:07:57 <TrueBrain> but we will figure that out :)
21:08:12 <TrueBrain> in the issue I created are the most important things I found .. the rest are more breadcrumbs :)
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21:08:19 * andythenorth figuring out training programmes
21:08:30 <andythenorth> nobody ever taught me how to make tech
21:08:37 <andythenorth> so I have NFI how to teach others
21:08:41 <andythenorth> but then again...
21:08:47 <TrueBrain> only those we can't, teach :P
21:08:53 <frosch123> how many? employees or customers?
21:09:02 <andythenorth> paid placement employees
21:09:06 <andythenorth> new entrants to industry
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21:09:36 <andythenorth> I always find this hard, because I learnt everything for myself
21:09:54 <andythenorth> by falling on my face repeatedly
21:10:44 <andythenorth> 'lol there is a debugger in Flash, but I have written my own already'
21:10:52 <andythenorth> repeat for 10 years
21:14:47 <frosch123> well, to give the most general recommendation: external trainings with trainees from multiple companies are a waste of time / too unspecific. if you can afford it, have in-house training where trainees know about what the other trainees do
21:15:04 <frosch123> but that does not work for fresh employees
21:16:51 <frosch123> well, i guess it depends whether you want people to learn how to do stuff at your place, or whether you want someone to learn how other companies do stuff
21:20:14 <TrueBrain> still looks so much better than mediawiki imo :)
21:21:31 <frosch123> i can't say the C word, andy is here :)
21:21:55 <TrueBrain> a hover is not working, and I do not understand why not .. and I don't dare to ask :P
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21:26:17 <TrueBrain> pretty sure nobody tried UNIX :P
21:29:19 <Heiki> “The game could be slow as you could have a Virus Checker, a firewall, and much other software running in the background.” those nasty UNIX Virus Checkers
21:32:24 <TrueBrain> okay, the fact that the thumbs scale poorly is something that should be fixed in CSS, I just don't know how :)
21:32:31 <TrueBrain> I kinda refuse to open the file to find the width, as mediawiki does :P
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21:40:30 <andythenorth> I want to give people experience so they can get jobs elsewhere
21:40:48 <andythenorth> I kinda know how to train long-term employees
21:41:13 <andythenorth> it's like a work experience thing, paid
21:41:51 <andythenorth> I can't actually employ them, they won't know anything :P
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21:43:10 <frosch123> do you want to train them? or does the government force you to?
21:46:45 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] jelly opened pull request #8328: Make openttd reproducible by not embedding timestamps in gzip https://git.io/JTOUR
21:49:37 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] jelly updated pull request #8328: Make openttd reproducible by not embedding timestamps in gzip https://git.io/JTOUR
21:50:58 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8328: Make openttd reproducible by not embedding timestamps in gzip https://git.io/JTOUF
21:51:52 <TrueBrain> that was scary quick :o
21:52:49 <frosch123> in time for a t-shirt or a tree
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22:09:30 <TrueBrain> how to tell in CSS an img should use the width/height of the image?
22:09:49 <TrueBrain> I now have images rendering as 0x0 :P
22:10:03 <TrueBrain> nope, auto doesn't work
22:10:23 <TrueBrain> I do appreciate it :P
22:11:00 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: please fix!
22:11:24 <LordAro> TrueBrain: "this is what i would try"
22:11:36 <LordAro> you didn't say what you had tried already :p
22:11:58 <TrueBrain> I was trying the things you mention :D I am willing to try anything :P
22:12:02 <TrueBrain> frosch123: no joy :(
22:12:27 <andythenorth> frosch123 I want to
22:12:31 <andythenorth> or I want to try
22:12:45 <andythenorth> not even sure why, but eh
22:13:24 <frosch123> andythenorth: how old are they? < 20, < 30, > 50 ?
22:13:43 <andythenorth> dunno, might be from non-traditional route, i.e. not 22 year old comp. sci grads
22:13:56 <andythenorth> might be retraining older, might be 9
22:14:13 <frosch123> so, inhomogen on all scales :)
22:14:41 <andythenorth> the trigger is seeing too many people saying the industry is hard to get in to
22:14:49 <andythenorth> yet nobody can hire
22:15:16 <frosch123> oh, that's just the imature schooling
22:15:25 <frosch123> there are like 50 types of engineering degrees
22:15:33 <frosch123> yet only 3 software degrees
22:15:46 <frosch123> 50 is probably an low estimate
22:15:49 <TrueBrain> wikitextparser seems to refuse to parse tables in a list .. I am not against that ...
22:15:57 <andythenorth> 'professional standards' is lolz in software
22:16:00 <andythenorth> compared to medicine
22:16:24 <andythenorth> we have a lot of hot air about science and facts, but so much opinion and emotion
22:16:26 <andythenorth> and low standards
22:16:53 <andythenorth> not that I wanted standards :P
22:16:57 <frosch123> anyway, an expert at one company, can be completely useless at another company
22:17:14 <andythenorth> I quit civil engineering because it was so constrained and you have to be chartered etc
22:17:21 <andythenorth> and it was....boring
22:17:29 <frosch123> just like a building construction engineer is useless at a car manufacturer
22:17:48 <andythenorth> unless you want a car factory built?
22:31:11 <TrueBrain> ugh, I need to insert <p> in the right places .. this will be painful ... I am sure someone else solved this :P
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22:52:52 <TrueBrain> owh, wait, Image is a parameter
22:53:01 <TrueBrain> okay, in that case only the conversion goes wrong :)
22:54:29 <TrueBrain> not sure why it becomes "File:en/.{{{", that "." in there
22:56:21 <frosch123> i may keep my page mapping, but rewrite the link-replacement with a real mediawiki parser, instead of my regexes :)
22:56:45 <TrueBrain> can I suggest wikitextparser? :D
22:58:07 <TrueBrain> style="width="100%"; border=1"
22:58:12 <TrueBrain> this is .... ugh ... that .... no
23:01:33 <TrueBrain> fixed it back to the old way, but without error
23:01:43 <TrueBrain> need to get that wiki quota!
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23:07:21 <TrueBrain> mediawiki allows way too much wrong code ...
23:07:24 <TrueBrain> tables are a mess too :)
23:07:30 <TrueBrain> I love my "--check-all" :D
23:08:01 <glx> yeah a page can be full of broken tables and still display fine
23:10:28 <TrueBrain> he is consistent in the mistake at least :D
23:11:16 <TrueBrain> the history is going to have pages that simply do not render properly
23:11:36 <TrueBrain> I will make it as minimal as possible the part that doesn't render, but this is just something that is going to happen :D
23:18:15 <frosch123> you are fluent in many languages, ru, fr, pl
23:19:30 <frosch123> hmm, the tables you fixed... i think i learned it to do like that :)
23:20:08 <TrueBrain> that was obvious :)
23:20:13 <TrueBrain> you are the only one, so it is okay :D
23:26:58 <TrueBrain> attribute name of a table .. "boarder"
23:27:53 <TrueBrain> at least we are sure that never worked :P
23:30:48 <TrueBrain> okay, I am at the M in pages of fixing tables .. enough for tonight :)
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