IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2020-08-27
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20:58:46 <TrueBrain> frosch123: if you like, I found a backup of the wiki from 2009 :P :D (sorry, cleaning up stuff overhere, I find random shit :P)
21:00:20 <frosch123> is that when we got the current server?
21:00:40 <frosch123> hmm, our server is even older than my pc
21:00:49 <TrueBrain> no, but it is when we moved from a server in a university to a dedicated :)
21:00:54 <frosch123> and my current pc is the oldest pc i ever had
21:01:28 <frosch123> TrueBrain: oh right, we switched hosters
21:01:50 <TrueBrain> well, not so much switching, as that we were .. "semi" legal using a server from a cluster that nobody happened to notice :P
21:02:10 <TrueBrain> but parts of the server it moved to lives on, as the inner VM in our current setup
21:02:17 <TrueBrain> the one that is running django :D
21:02:27 <frosch123> yes, but we once had leaseweb
21:02:30 <TrueBrain> the wiki has been upgraded a few times since that time :) (and put in its own VM etc :P)
21:03:06 <frosch123> until we had 48 hours downtime somewhen... and you did not like them anymore :) or so
21:03:17 <TrueBrain> yeah ... that was "fun"
21:03:35 <TrueBrain> "no, you don't pay us enough, an engineer will be deployed when ever he feels like it"
21:03:43 <TrueBrain> "owh, the issue? Someone switched off your server by accident. We put it back on"
21:04:08 <frosch123> oi, i did not know that part
21:04:08 <TrueBrain> those are indications of: RUN! RUN!!!
21:04:28 <TrueBrain> then we hopped around a few providers for a while
21:04:33 <TrueBrain> finally landing at OVH :P
21:04:36 <frosch123> did they really say that? that it got switched off by accident?
21:04:37 <TrueBrain> which we have been for a scary long time now
21:05:00 <TrueBrain> I was -very- pissed
21:05:26 <frosch123> i wouldn't expect that you would get such a "honest" answer
21:05:47 <TrueBrain> at that time I also rented space in the same DC for my job back then
21:06:49 <TrueBrain> reading back the emails
21:07:01 <TrueBrain> they were first blaming it on the BIOS configuration, that I forgot to change it to boot on power-on
21:07:10 <TrueBrain> while .. they were responsible for that part :P
21:08:23 <TrueBrain> loosely translated: "the powersupply was in working order, but the server was powered off. A powercycle doesn't help here, and the server had to be switched on by pressing the button on the front of it. This is now done, and the server booted correctly"
21:08:36 <TrueBrain> it was even their initial first reply, I now see :)
21:09:29 <TrueBrain> "if a server is shutdown, it stays off if the BIOS is not correctly configured. You can find back these events in the logs. If you like, I can reboot the server again to check the BIOS settings"
21:09:44 <TrueBrain> (the logs showed it was not a clean shutdown .. so yeah ..)
21:10:18 <TrueBrain> so yeah, 6 months later we were migrated to another provider :)
21:10:25 <TrueBrain> good old history :)
21:12:09 <TrueBrain> owh, it was at the same time they tried to charge us for overusage on bandwidth, which were ARP requests caused by a misconfigured on their switch
21:12:16 <TrueBrain> by reading the emails, that pissed me off too :P
21:12:25 <andythenorth> we repeatedly shutdown the wrong one of our servers
21:12:31 <TrueBrain> when we cancelled, they send me a "why did you leave" survey
21:12:34 <TrueBrain> never got a reply :P
21:12:40 <andythenorth> requiring someone to run to the DC, which was up a hill, 10 mins away
21:12:59 <andythenorth> also our DC operator knocked the cable out of the rack multiple times
21:13:03 <TrueBrain> I did that plenty in my life indeed :) But that was not that time, I promise you :D
21:13:15 <TrueBrain> I used to have colocated shared-rack hosting ..
21:13:23 <TrueBrain> too often the cable got knocked out by others
21:13:34 <TrueBrain> lucky, if you are a bit nice, you just call who-ever you know is on-duty, and ask him to check
21:13:37 <TrueBrain> they mostly did that ..
21:13:40 <andythenorth> at least with cloud nobody mentions the cable
21:13:41 <TrueBrain> it was a 45 minute drive to the DC :P
21:13:50 <andythenorth> even though clearly sometimes AWS knock the cable out :P
21:14:04 <TrueBrain> as one thing I learned from doing shit in DCs ... befriend the on-duty staff
21:14:13 <TrueBrain> it makes your life so much easier
21:14:50 <dwfreed> cloud is just somebody else's cable
21:14:57 <TrueBrain> haha, owh, this is also a fun snippet: while LeaseWeb was sponsoring our server, we were put on "Best Effort" (with low priority)
21:15:03 <TrueBrain> so every question took days to get an answer
21:15:12 <TrueBrain> not sure that is the choice I make for "sponsorships"
21:16:26 <TrueBrain> also fun, a year later, LeaseWeb emailed me about a policy update on their servers
21:16:31 <TrueBrain> I kindly asked them to never ever email me again :P
21:16:36 <TrueBrain> yeah, I was pissed at LW :P
21:16:51 <TrueBrain> still wouldn't advise anyone to get hosted there ..
21:20:41 <TrueBrain> other fun fact: OpenTTD's mail archive goes back till the beginning of times :D
21:24:41 <frosch123> i wonder, are there more mails in the inbox or in the archive folder
21:25:04 <frosch123> 50% more in inbox :)
21:25:48 <frosch123> i guess we get more newsletters now
21:26:42 <TrueBrain> my personal mailbox is a lot cleaner :)
21:26:47 <TrueBrain> my inbox is always ~0 mails :)
21:27:13 <frosch123> same with my work inbox
21:27:36 <frosch123> inbox only contains stuff that i got as bcc, or when there is yet another email group
21:27:42 <TrueBrain> I cannot stand people who don't do that .. how do you know which emails you did not reply to? HOW DO YOU MAKE SENSE OUT ALL OF IT?!
21:28:15 <frosch123> anyway, "archive" folder starts in 2008
21:28:20 <frosch123> that is not the beginning of time
21:28:32 <TrueBrain> info@ was created in 2008 I think?
21:29:13 <TrueBrain> not sure how mail was handled before 2008 tbh
21:29:14 <frosch123> really? what was before?
21:29:36 <TrueBrain> I really do not know tbh
21:29:41 <TrueBrain> possibly not in my scope :)
21:30:18 <TrueBrain> my first email is also from 2008
21:30:57 <frosch123> wayback machine already lists @openttd in 2006
21:31:15 <frosch123> oh, but there is no info@
21:31:16 <TrueBrain> I remember when I joined in 2004 there was no shared mailbox
21:31:25 <frosch123> only individual people, and there is no tb but a tl
21:31:29 <TrueBrain> I thought I created it, but .. memory is not the best :P
21:31:52 <frosch123> so, probably your older mail is in tl@ :)
21:31:56 <TrueBrain> ah, that might explain the scope of my mailbox :)
21:32:20 <TrueBrain> my first email is a mess email to all devs :P
21:32:20 <frosch123> lol, the contact page also lists personal homepages
21:32:34 <andythenorth> so....can we get MicroProse to buy the signing certs for Apple and MS? :P
21:33:12 <TrueBrain> 2008-07-31 was the day we switched to sane hosting
21:33:19 <TrueBrain> together with Rb I redid the whole infra
21:33:24 <andythenorth> also my inbox is 42798 messages
21:33:26 <TrueBrain> meant SVN had to be done over SSH
21:33:45 <frosch123> oh, i think i have that mail somewhere
21:33:56 <TrueBrain> it was a very lengthy mail
21:34:02 <TrueBrain> as people were .. euh .. well, lets not go into that :P
21:34:04 <andythenorth> am I the only one who has 'rule: message is inbox, mark read'?
21:34:22 <TrueBrain> ah, info@ was an alias of Belugas for the first few :)
21:35:09 <TrueBrain> accidentally, it was also the date we started with git/mercurial :)
21:35:27 <TrueBrain> and the day we deprecated openttd.com
21:35:35 <andythenorth> ah the great mercurial misadventure
21:35:40 <andythenorth> I do not miss all my mercurial repos
21:37:47 <TrueBrain> okay, I am done with a trip down memory lane :P
21:38:22 <frosch123> the plan was to move all coop repos to github. i thought i started with V stuff to get the big ones out of the way. but they exceed the github quotas :)
21:39:10 <TrueBrain> I am always curious which limits GitHub has for public projects :)
21:39:24 <andythenorth> so the coop repos are still there on the box? It's just redmine that's broken?
21:39:37 <TrueBrain> I guess git doesn't really like images :P
21:39:39 <andythenorth> git is not ideal for large binaries :P
21:39:55 <andythenorth> I thought it had improved blobs a few years ago or something?
21:40:01 <andythenorth> maybe I imagined that
21:40:13 <frosch123> andythenorth: i even have a local copy on my machine from june, though i think some weirdos started committing again
21:40:43 <frosch123> TrueBrain: well, actually, that's the size of the hg repo. i did not check the size after conversion
21:41:28 <TrueBrain> checkouts would take some time :D
21:41:45 <andythenorth> FIRS is 328MB it seems
21:42:05 <frosch123> but yeti working copy is already 4 GB, so the repo size is not that bad
21:43:31 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: while I have you here, did you read the request from me to let me know if your dev-space can be shut down? I would like to deprecate dev-spaces in favour of gist/github
21:43:45 <TrueBrain> you are one of the 3 that ... sometimes, uses it :)
21:43:49 <planetmaker> uh, no, I did not see that yet
21:43:59 <frosch123> TrueBrain: V has about 20 GB in 5 repos on devzone
21:44:12 <planetmaker> hey, it has historical value with the titlegame competitions hosted there :)
21:44:15 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: but I cannot estimate if you have something in your dev-space that couldn't be done by gist/github :)
21:44:22 <frosch123> zbase is nothing in comparison :)
21:44:30 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: I can archive that, if you like?
21:46:10 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: anyway, please look it over; by the end of next month (September) I would like to shut the dev-spaces down if possible
21:46:20 <TrueBrain> just let me know if there is any blocker or you want anything archived / redirected
21:47:59 <frosch123> i deleted the old bananas dev-vm the other day :)
21:48:14 <TrueBrain> :D It was a nice attempt to get a new BaNaNaS going :)
21:48:30 <TrueBrain> and I am still happy we found a way to make 1.5 instead of 2 :)
21:48:36 <planetmaker> aye. Just sad. Also nice goodies like frosch's or Smatz' dev space offer some marvels from times long past :)
21:49:10 <planetmaker> but I totally understand
21:49:12 <frosch123> my local disk was full last year. then i deleted all vm images that i do no longer need since i have docker. not i have plenty of space again :p
21:49:37 <planetmaker> I wonder ho many MB I use on the devspace :P
21:49:40 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: I will offline archive all dev-spaces, so we can always recover anything we want to look back at, but yeah, it is a bit sad :)
21:49:45 <frosch123> planetmaker: good point, i should crawl smatz'
21:49:51 <planetmaker> there's a wine-py36.tgz... now at 500MB+ :P
21:50:37 <frosch123> still? i deleted the big files
21:51:12 <TrueBrain> frosch123: 2.5G Jul 21 2013 OpenTTDTestServer.vdi
21:51:14 <frosch123> oh, there is another vm copy
21:51:15 <TrueBrain> you did? Really? :)
21:51:29 <frosch123> it's the same bananas test vm
21:51:42 <frosch123> created 2 weeks before the last ottd party :p
21:52:45 <TrueBrain> was that 2013? Damn ....
21:53:14 <planetmaker> drat, that's long time ago
21:53:19 <planetmaker> 20k and 25k parties
21:53:20 <frosch123> i baked unicorn muffins. i tried to decorate them with ottd logos. but it was too warm to make anything lasting with chocolate
21:53:28 <planetmaker> heck, I still live here :P
21:53:35 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: lolz :)
21:53:40 <TrueBrain> well, it was a nice place :)
21:53:59 <TrueBrain> if it wasn't for covid, I would say: lets do another one!
21:54:08 <TrueBrain> weren't there tt-forums meetups? Do they still happen?
21:54:09 <planetmaker> that were two very jolly parties :)
21:54:27 <planetmaker> the meetups never seemed so... international to me
21:54:40 <TrueBrain> no, just a few UK people going to the pub, basically :P
21:54:48 <TrueBrain> our parties were international :)
21:54:53 <TrueBrain> with people driving from the weirdest places :P
21:54:55 <planetmaker> best fun was to sponsor belugas to come :)
21:55:00 <TrueBrain> can't believe we did that :D
21:55:13 <planetmaker> yeah, I still consider that crazy as shit. But awesome
21:55:28 <planetmaker> Haven't heard from him in a long time
21:55:33 <frosch123> not as crazy as that danish dude who signed up the evening before
21:55:49 <TrueBrain> everyone was invited :)
21:55:50 <planetmaker> hehe, true @frosch :)
21:56:10 <TrueBrain> I remember I picked up a few Dutchies .. one I knew who he was without ever meeting him
21:56:13 <TrueBrain> it was just ... obvious :P
21:56:15 <planetmaker> I'd had to have rent a bigger venue than my flat, had we been much more
21:56:57 <planetmaker> hehe, it's a special type of people, indeed
21:57:04 <frosch123> TrueBrain: lonely nerd at the street?
21:57:15 <TrueBrain> he acted out of place, yes
21:57:36 <frosch123> anyway. the most upsetting part was the number of macs at the meeting
21:57:53 <TrueBrain> I don't even own a laptop these days ... things really have changed
21:58:14 <frosch123> also no work notebook?
21:58:26 <TrueBrain> that requires having work :D
21:59:00 <frosch123> i did not work for 3 months last year. got 1 month worth of tax returns...
21:59:04 <TrueBrain> but yeah, when this whole covid-bla is over, we really should do another .. :D
21:59:25 <TrueBrain> I am just calling it an "extended vacation" :)
21:59:57 <planetmaker> I found it somewhat daring to invite a complete crowd of strangers to my flat and even offer them to stay over night :P
22:00:17 <planetmaker> was a good choice :D
22:00:24 <frosch123> planetmaker: at first you posted your address publicly on the forum. we had to scold you for that
22:00:31 <TrueBrain> the first time I just went home at the end of the evening .. but the second time I remember I really was not up for the task :P
22:00:45 <planetmaker> really? Lol, I forgot that part :P
22:01:02 <TrueBrain> but it was great you could receive us planetmaker :) Was a great place for a bbq :P
22:01:12 <TrueBrain> wasn't it the second time bloody hot?
22:01:24 <planetmaker> was quite warm, yes
22:01:44 <TrueBrain> owh, you were THAT crazy person
22:02:01 <frosch123> not sure which. but one time i ended up with a ton of mosquito bites
22:02:05 * andythenorth puts the recycling out
22:02:11 <TrueBrain> who was the crazy person who brought beer from .. where?
22:02:28 <TrueBrain> he came in with all this crazy beer
22:02:28 <frosch123> yes V brought a barrel
22:02:30 <TrueBrain> like: yeah, I took some
22:02:37 <planetmaker> I think we had some nice Czech beer ,yes
22:03:27 <TrueBrain> my favorite still is the fake 10k cake :)
22:03:39 <frosch123> seems to be the latest one
22:03:43 <TrueBrain> I like that there was never a 10k revision, and I like he faked the cake :)
22:04:01 <TrueBrain> it was incredibly mean to remove the 10kth revision btw :P
22:04:29 <frosch123> TrueBrain: it broke when rb rewrote the entire svn history some years later
22:04:41 <TrueBrain> it broke a few more times I can tell you :)
22:05:34 <TrueBrain> but we used to have a "hidden" folder with a few too many commits
22:05:43 <TrueBrain> which was also not ideal :)
22:06:02 <TrueBrain> it did learn me the internals of Subversion, and how fucked up it is :P
22:06:11 <TrueBrain> every 1k commits was also fun, as permissions broke :P
22:06:33 <planetmaker> the fun old times with svn :)
22:06:55 <planetmaker> taught me the ropes of VCS usage, though
22:09:13 <andythenorth> straw poll: do you work with any operations people, and if yes, what's their job title
22:10:41 <frosch123> my old company had no job titles. everyone made something up on the spot, when introducting someone to a customer
22:11:57 <frosch123> now i don't think i have contact with anyone who could be considered "operations"
22:12:45 <andythenorth> I prefer the made-up-on-the-spot
22:12:51 <andythenorth> but apparently it's very bad when hiring
22:13:01 <andythenorth> according to a survey my friend did of people applying for jobs
22:13:15 <andythenorth> 'use standard job titles, don't be cute or clever'
22:13:39 <andythenorth> my staff can pretty much adjust job title as needed, as long as they get it done
22:14:09 <frosch123> my current company has two branches of job titles. one for managers on level X, and one for other employees on level X. however, there is also the rule that everyone in r&d (except interns) use the name from the manager branch
22:14:25 <andythenorth> one day I will have levels and grades
22:14:28 <frosch123> so in my group, everyone is titled "xyz manager" :)
22:14:42 <andythenorth> who's terrified of badgers?
22:14:46 <andythenorth> is it the Swedish?
22:15:09 <frosch123> andythenorth: anyway. job titles are useful once the company is big enough that you do not know everyone
22:15:17 <andythenorth> there's some kind of job, like a traditional sysadmin, doing logs and devices and access audits and crap
22:15:27 <frosch123> if you know everyone, you do not need any rules. people can organise themself
22:15:29 <andythenorth> but I don't have the £80k / year that sysadmins currently demand
22:16:10 <andythenorth> for the price of a sysadmin, I can hire a CEO here
22:16:15 <andythenorth> wonder which is better value :P
22:16:52 <frosch123> at some point the admins showed the assistants how to refill the paper in the printer
22:17:23 <frosch123> but they still have to deal with the toner
22:17:28 <andythenorth> did they want to, or were they made?
22:17:43 <andythenorth> my experience of most of traditional IT is that it's a job protection scheme
22:18:41 <frosch123> no idea. at my old company IT was where you put the people you hired once, but who had trouble switching from fortran to C or something
22:18:51 <frosch123> at may new company, i do not see IT, but it mostly works
22:21:15 <andythenorth> mine mostly works, but I get to see it far too much
22:21:24 <andythenorth> due to IT mostly being compliance now
22:21:34 <andythenorth> and I have to do it
22:22:04 * andythenorth would like to hire a new friend
22:22:39 <andythenorth> I asked Truebrain but he doesn't want to read wifi logs and configure macs all day
22:22:43 <frosch123> yeah, compliance is annoying with public customers
22:22:56 <frosch123> private companies are so much easier
22:23:07 <andythenorth> they have different annoyances :)
22:23:37 <andythenorth> charities are absolutely the worst, every time I worked with them
22:23:49 <andythenorth> not all, but some
22:24:22 <frosch123> well, the funny part is that industrial software is usually huge, old and quite crappy compared to standard software
22:24:49 <frosch123> so, you can look quite good if your own software is not as old
22:26:31 * andythenorth considers a pivot
22:27:31 <frosch123> the flow seems to be: start-up with modern but few stuff => somewhat old but enough functions => huge with tons of legacy stuff where you only know whether someone uses it, if you break it and wait for bug reports :)
22:28:12 <frosch123> i moved from (3) to (2). good choice
22:29:26 <andythenorth> hmm our product went straight from 1 to 3 I think :)
22:30:02 <andythenorth> 3 happens quickly if you accept money for specific features from one customer
22:30:47 <frosch123> andythenorth: isn't all your stuff web stuff? you never developed your own gui, or your own pre-c++98 dynamic_cast, did you?
22:31:01 <andythenorth> we did implement RSS though :P
22:35:04 <frosch123> i sold RSS as "modern feature" to a customer in 2011, who was excited about the new possibilities
22:35:36 <frosch123> i think it survived 2 years, until the customer's website was rewritten
22:36:34 <frosch123> (we had nothing to do with web stuff, we only sent the data "via xml")
22:37:08 <andythenorth> when is XML for grf happening?
22:37:43 <frosch123> it already exists. you can find it on grf.farm
22:37:48 * andythenorth looks for libaries
22:37:50 <frosch123> it even includes minigames like tw
22:38:07 <andythenorth> ok so xml json is a thing
22:38:13 <andythenorth> and we have a json-ish grf format
22:38:53 <andythenorth> or maybe it's YAML-esque
22:39:06 <andythenorth> anyway XML->YAGL->GRF
22:40:59 <frosch123> yagl is such a weird topic
22:41:23 <andythenorth> someone had a hobby
22:43:14 <andythenorth> unrelated: shall I reskin bananas at christmas?
22:43:22 <andythenorth> not redesign, just improve
22:43:37 <frosch123> people really hate the tt-forums christmas theme
22:44:13 <andythenorth> bananas animated snowflakes
22:44:21 <andythenorth> then animated bananas in July
22:44:51 <frosch123> andythenorth: if you are lucky, you can choose between bananas, eints and wiki :)
22:45:26 <andythenorth> I think I have served my time on the wiki
22:45:55 <andythenorth> is there a newgrf eints on the far horizon?
22:46:28 <frosch123> last estimate was that noone would use it, since they do not trust bots pushing to their repos
22:46:46 <andythenorth> I thought bananas could compile it as a remote :P
22:47:02 <frosch123> quite sure that will never happen :)
22:47:31 <frosch123> otherwise bananas could also compile ottd patches
22:48:03 <frosch123> and send parcels with cookies
22:48:27 <frosch123> hmm, or parcels with real bananas
22:49:10 <andythenorth> or bananas with cookies
22:49:45 * andythenorth wonders about a github pipeline that does 'git pull [remote]' and 'make'
22:50:05 <andythenorth> I just no longer want to give randoms access to arbitrary repos
22:50:19 <andythenorth> it's hard to make a risk case for it
22:50:40 <frosch123> would you be willing to approve+merge a PR before every release?
22:50:56 <andythenorth> if it was very infrequent yes
22:51:49 <andythenorth> presumably that depends on the release cycle?
22:51:50 <frosch123> like when eints creates a PR whenever it has new translations. and updates the PR whenever it has more, until it is merged. then it creates the next PR when it has new stuff again
22:52:30 <frosch123> so as long as there are constantly translators working, you would always have 1 open PR with latest translation updates, that you can merge when you like to
22:52:40 <andythenorth> reading the diffs would be defense enough
22:52:56 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
22:53:08 <andythenorth> I'm not worried about really esoteric attacks using buffer overflows or something
22:53:23 <andythenorth> just people sticking in eval() or whatever and me missing it
23:22:57 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd
23:24:06 <FLHerne> TrueBrain: We went to the London Transport Museum, not just the pub! :D
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