IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2020-08-16
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05:49:11 <Gustavo6046> I want my buses to just roam around (no specific orders) and load/unload at the stations they will come across.
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09:23:00 * andythenorth has ordered a copy
09:23:06 <andythenorth> looks like it's only boring mode
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12:04:39 <_dp_> wtf was I debugging yesterday till 5am, can't even repro now xD
12:05:12 <_dp_> well, my save comparator can now parse VEHS so that's a plus I guess :/
12:15:37 <b_jonas> _dp_: yeah, that's most of my output at work too, better debugging tools, not fixes for the problems that they found
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12:23:21 <andythenorth> I can use the flip status of a vehicle as configuration
12:23:35 <andythenorth> so 0000 would be livery 1
12:23:56 <b_jonas> can you also use the coupled wagons as configuration?
12:23:57 <andythenorth> 1000 would be livery 2 (reversed bits, user expects to start at front of train)
12:24:06 <andythenorth> 0100 would be livery 2
12:24:13 <nielsm> you mean flip bit of first, second, third etc. vehicle in the train as bits to select livery of entire train?
12:24:24 <andythenorth> totally sane, right?
12:24:36 <andythenorth> how many values can I encode in 4 bits?
12:24:55 <andythenorth> I only want to draw 2 in most cases :P
12:25:21 * andythenorth wonders about a better way :P
12:26:17 <nielsm> steamers with tender built as separate wagon and tender chosen determines graphics and performance in some way too, and works as second bit to select livery by flip
12:26:32 <andythenorth> I'm sure V already has all this in NUTS
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12:28:46 * _dp_ actually wanted a flipped Doombringer yesterday
12:29:23 <andythenorth> flipped articulated vehicles should be a thing :)
12:30:51 * andythenorth proposes a newgrf flag that redefines ctrl-click behaviour
12:30:58 <andythenorth> if 0, flip is flip
12:31:27 <andythenorth> if 1 ctrl-click sets a bit on vehicle (lead vehicle of articulated consist), and newgrf can choose what to do
12:32:40 <andythenorth> you wanted one for the back also?
12:33:21 <andythenorth> it's not like newgrf couldn't do it
12:33:27 <andythenorth> I already have to manually handle flip anyway
12:33:39 <andythenorth> because openttd does it wrong
12:33:51 <_dp_> mostly because I just wanted two engines without wagons and before I realized it turns last wagon into a head visually
12:34:24 <andythenorth> maybe I should make a JGR feature request :)
13:00:47 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the main thing that's blocking flipping articulated vehicles is that in order to flip the whole vehicle, the parts need to change order, and that does all kind of weird stuff to functions that traverse the vehicles in the chain
13:01:40 <Eddi|zuHause> keep in mind that some people want flip to actually do what it says
13:02:59 <andythenorth> apart from "it's work" and "it fragments the existing grf base" what stops it being delegated to newgrf
13:03:12 <andythenorth> given that newgrfs can't support flip without handling it themselves anyway
13:03:49 <andythenorth> I can forsee some bad things happening if var 0x61 is being used extensively
13:04:16 <Eddi|zuHause> you need different parts of the code to traverse the vehicle in different orders
13:05:24 <Eddi|zuHause> because vehicles are now both the 3rd part in the articulated chain, and the 1st part in the vehicle chain
13:06:27 <andythenorth> I can see the problem
13:06:54 <andythenorth> container vehicles :P
13:07:21 <andythenorth> the IDs and properties of units inside an articulated consist should not be the concern of neighbouring vehicles
13:07:32 <andythenorth> but that's not going to change :)
13:08:22 <andythenorth> anyway, I have made a totally rational way to control liveries
13:08:37 <andythenorth> Horse has random 1cc/2cc livery for cargo wagons
13:08:45 <andythenorth> which can be reversed by flipping the vehicle
13:08:53 <andythenorth> but there have been a few feature requests to disable that
13:09:09 <andythenorth> which I ignored because it could be avoided using the company colour settings for wagons
13:09:19 <andythenorth> (set 1cc and 2cc same for wagons only)
13:09:24 <andythenorth> but that doesn't work with groups
13:09:45 <andythenorth> flipping the second vehicle in same-id chain toggles random on or off
13:10:03 <andythenorth> if random is off, flipping the first vehicle determines 1cc or 2cc for the whole id chain
13:10:58 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds like complete nonsense :)
13:11:02 <andythenorth> trying to control train appearance in a spec that is borderline hostile to it
13:11:06 <andythenorth> is a good meta-game
13:11:40 <andythenorth> if starting a model train simulator from scratch, blank paper, 'control appearance' would probably be near top of spec
13:11:48 <andythenorth> but we are where we are
13:12:47 <andythenorth> I could just add 1CC and 2CC variants to the purchase menu and be done with it?
13:13:00 <andythenorth> it wouldn't bloat grf much, it's a sprite recolour, so just a few extra lines and an ID
13:13:31 <andythenorth> "Open Wagon (Small) 1CC", "Open Wagon (Small) 2CC", "Open Wagon (Small) Random"
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13:41:59 <andythenorth> is there a var somewhere for 'company colour is being applied to this vehicle by a group'?
13:42:20 <andythenorth> vehicles without livery from group should continue to randomise 1cc/2cc
13:42:25 <andythenorth> vehicles in groups should not
13:42:42 <andythenorth> maybe I should allow/prevent randomisation based on tasteful colour combos :P
13:46:33 <andythenorth> ha ha genius idea
13:46:36 <andythenorth> 2 kinds of caboose
13:46:51 <andythenorth> attaching a random-colours caboose in the consist causes random colour swap
13:46:56 <andythenorth> otherwise all the same
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14:33:08 <b_jonas> why would you want random colors in first place? do you want more rainbow slugs?
14:33:35 <b_jonas> I prefer my trains to just have group colors
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15:30:43 <andythenorth> you don't want wagons to sometimes have an alternative colour?
15:32:07 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd prospect the vast majority does not want random
15:32:29 <nielsm> depends on the type of wagon, in general I think it makes more sense that wagons purchased/built at the same time should look the same
15:32:36 <andythenorth> non-random is definitely tidier
15:32:44 <nielsm> but then OTTD doesn't have wagons moving between trains
15:32:55 <andythenorth> it's quite a nuanced situation
15:33:01 <nielsm> since that's really how mixed-looking trains happen irl
15:33:15 <andythenorth> without groups in use, I set wagon colours to e.g. blue, dark blue, or pink, red
15:33:22 <andythenorth> and then the randomisation is small
15:33:40 <andythenorth> but with groups I usually have e.g. red-white, mauve-orange etc
15:33:45 <andythenorth> and the wagons look horrible
15:35:11 <frosch123> more variety for less work
15:35:23 <nielsm> actually one thing you can do is have old cargo wagons at the end (and possibly regular intervals in long trains) have brakeman huts
15:35:46 <andythenorth> frosch123 hurrah, a vote for random :)
15:36:12 <andythenorth> I could randomise to nearby company colour, instead of 1cc / 2cc
15:36:17 <andythenorth> might look less bad
15:37:11 <nielsm> containers can definitely be different each time they are loaded though
15:37:27 <andythenorth> yeah that's done already in Horse
15:38:13 <andythenorth> the number of side-channels I'm using to try and let player influence livery :P
15:38:26 <andythenorth> because I hate the spec implementation of liveries
15:41:35 <nielsm> how about instead of grouping in the purchase window there is a before-purchase callback that enumerates a list of variants available for purchase, and variants are shown in a separate list after choosing the wagpm
15:42:04 <nielsm> and each variant has a byte id that just becomes another variable
15:42:49 <andythenorth> does that differ much from current implementation?
15:43:24 <nielsm> in UI it does, perhaps?
15:43:24 <andythenorth> the UI might be less clunky :)
15:44:34 <andythenorth> can I repaint a vehicle after it is purchased?
15:45:04 <nielsm> actually have three cbs, one for enumerating the available variant ids, one for querying variant names by id, and one for selecting actual variant id from selected variant id (and other variables) at purchase time
15:46:02 <nielsm> aaaaaa big bird poop in my hair
15:46:13 <nielsm> and running down the back of my head
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16:01:27 <andythenorth> lateral approach
16:01:38 <andythenorth> rule-based company colour
16:02:22 <andythenorth> choose a colour, or open a rules UI
16:02:47 <andythenorth> 'if wagon use colour x | random choice from [options]
16:02:53 <andythenorth> if engine... etc
16:03:44 <andythenorth> this would (1) work with groups as well as non-groups
16:04:02 <andythenorth> (2) we could replace the current colours UI, which has some of the weirdest design I've ever seen for making choices
16:04:31 <b_jonas> andythenorth: yes, I want alternative colors, that's when I assigne different colors to different train groups
16:04:58 <b_jonas> I woulnd't like random, because that would make it harder to distinguish different train groups by different colors
16:05:30 <b_jonas> nielsm has a point that in reality trains are often multicolored, but this isn't reality, I want to see my trains
16:05:41 <b_jonas> and I can have different trains running on the same line, or just close to each other
16:06:35 <nielsm> something like "prototype looks different from main production run" can also be cool
16:07:20 <nielsm> if you can get the actual introduction date and compare to the purchase date
16:07:33 <b_jonas> currently I color every train that carries only engineering supplies or farming supplies or chemicals or clay to blue. that's not perfect, because then I often redistribute the engineering supplies by adding one or two flat wagon to the back of the mining trains, and those wagons aren't blue, but since the iron/scrap/coal goes to hoppers and the eng supplies goes to flat wagons with cars on them, it's
16:07:39 <b_jonas> still obvious enough which trains have eng supply wagons
16:08:03 <b_jonas> but more importantly, I have five different mines on the north mining line, and distinguish the trains serving them with four different colors
16:08:15 <b_jonas> the south train line is similar, though that currently only has two mines
16:08:21 <Timberwolf> nielsm: I think `built_during_preview` does that?
16:08:32 <b_jonas> this will get even more important when I finally extend the north train line, there are a lot of currently unused mines there
16:09:03 <Timberwolf> I've been tempted to have an alternative DP1 sprite for Deltics built during the preview window, although I'm also tempted not to end up in combinatorial switch hell.
16:09:11 <nielsm> Timberwolf that sounds like it yes
16:09:21 <b_jonas> so I color the scrapyard trains yellow, coal to gray or brown, and the mining trains chosen from red, pink, orange, and whatever the other pink color is
16:09:34 <b_jonas> but these aren't fixed, I just use whatever works for my network
16:09:53 <b_jonas> my previous network had mostly oil and goods trains, so I had colors for different oil destinations
16:11:24 <b_jonas> I'm not saying that this helps the invisible workers that switch the track swithes for the trains, it helps me
16:11:31 <b_jonas> the real trains might be different color, this is for my interface
16:13:02 <b_jonas> although the maglev tracks are probably computer-controlled, there are no invisible workers pulling switches between two 4000 km/h vacuum trains
16:13:46 <b_jonas> the steam trains in the 1960s of the game may be switched manually
16:22:36 <andythenorth> Timberwolf switch livery depending on CC choice :P
16:23:52 <andythenorth> oof this randomisation based on flip state of 2nd wagon in ID chain :|
16:23:55 <andythenorth> it's nearly brilliant
16:24:01 <andythenorth> and also very odd
16:52:00 <b_jonas> well now Sundwood will find out that it doesn't matter that they're the fourth largest city on the world map without passenger trains, they'll probably NEVER get connected to my vactrain network because they pissed me off way back when I tried to connect that scrapyard. you'll see how your NIMBY council decisions affect you now, when the other big cities will get vactrains
16:52:18 <b_jonas> they even have a hotel, won't sway me
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16:52:21 <b_jonas> map is full of hotels
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17:17:45 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Random forever
17:23:28 <andythenorth> maybe it does need a parameter
17:28:35 <andythenorth> this has no group, so the engines and wagons have different colours
17:30:49 <andythenorth> * don't use groups?
17:31:06 <andythenorth> * do engine liveries with only 1CC, and use the 2CC only for wagons?
17:31:28 <andythenorth> * use recolour sprites to remap wagon colours to my choices, not players?
17:32:26 <andythenorth> * do 'realistic' coloured wagons only?
17:33:43 <nielsm> flat and box wagons tend to be mostly brown (maybe from wear and grime) while tankers have a bit of visible variation
17:36:52 <andythenorth> this 'problem' is of my own making
17:37:04 <andythenorth> the Horse wagon colours were designed against old livery UI
17:37:11 <andythenorth> then I campaigned for group liveries :)
17:38:07 <andythenorth> and group liveries cannot split the colours by vehicle type
17:38:19 <nielsm> make wagons only use the 1cc but have the 2cc select what kind of random variations show
17:39:26 <b_jonas> andythenorth: yes, I mentioned that, I can't color the one or two engineering station flat wagon to blue
17:39:39 <b_jonas> but they luckily look different enough even in the same color
17:40:01 <nielsm> maybe the group liveries should have a flag to control whether they apply to everything, only locos, or only wagons
17:40:12 <nielsm> (and then figure out how it determines what's a loco and what's not)
17:41:02 <andythenorth> game already knows that for buy menu sort order
17:41:10 <andythenorth> and for current liveries actually
17:42:25 <b_jonas> the game knows what's an engine because if you buy a lone engine then it counts as a train, if you buy a lone wagon it isn't a train
17:46:36 <andythenorth> there are shenanigans though
17:46:42 <andythenorth> is it an engine or a railcar?
17:46:47 <andythenorth> or an electric engine?
17:46:55 <andythenorth> is it a passenger coach or a freight wagon?
17:47:04 <andythenorth> the current livery UI has all the extra crap in it
17:51:40 <andythenorth> hmm, what if we just replaced it all?
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19:25:25 <andythenorth> Horse depot sprites should maybe have text overlays
19:25:38 <andythenorth> 'ctrl-click this vehicle to change colour'
19:25:53 <andythenorth> can we increase size of depot sprites for trains?
19:25:59 <andythenorth> I need to write quite detailed instructions per vehicle
19:26:32 <andythenorth> about 400px high per train will be enough, at 2x zoom
19:26:54 <andythenorth> currently they are about 30px high at 2x zoom
19:33:34 <frosch123> i think we need a new term for BAD FEATURE. the old one is not sufficient
19:34:26 <frosch123> bad feature is not good enough, we need to go to ludicrous feature
19:35:33 <andythenorth> I am suspending judgement :)
19:41:04 <andythenorth> does nml have an XOR
19:41:19 <andythenorth> I am trying to do it by multiplying returns that are 1 or -1
19:41:24 <andythenorth> but it's not working :P
19:41:39 <frosch123> there should be a ^
19:41:56 <frosch123> blame C for using silly characters
19:42:14 <TrueBrain> Jam ... raspberry.. looonnneeessstttaaaarrrrrr
19:42:33 <TrueBrain> (In reference to the ludicrous feature)
19:42:49 <frosch123> good that you added that :)
19:43:12 <TrueBrain> For those that don't understand the reference: learn some culture
19:56:14 <andythenorth> how about a little dice icon for the wagon that randomises crap
19:56:53 <andythenorth> this is a mad interface
19:57:02 <andythenorth> first wagon in ID chain toggle 1cc or 2cc Recolour
19:57:11 <andythenorth> last wagon makes it all same, or random per vehicle
19:57:20 <andythenorth> ctrl-click is the UI
19:59:26 <b_jonas> andythenorth: or just use the refit interface to do things with specific cars other than refitting
19:59:37 <andythenorth> I hate the livery spec
20:00:02 <b_jonas> refit already has a nice interface to select specific cars, it could also do paint jobs or whatever modifications you want
20:00:30 <b_jonas> don't put little icons over cars, that'll just make the normal things more difficult to do
20:00:48 <b_jonas> especially not little icons that you have to click on
20:00:56 <b_jonas> there's a good reason why they don't have trashcan icons on them already
20:01:28 <b_jonas> plus I want to see what the train looks like in the depot window
20:02:09 <andythenorth> I think overlays are the future :)
20:10:08 <andythenorth> frosch123 BAD enough? grf.farm/images/probably_fine.m4v
20:15:59 <andythenorth> I probably really shouldn't
20:27:43 <_dp_> live on -: CityMania.org TEST Need For Speed :- server ;)
20:31:08 <andythenorth> flips the current colour of the vehicle
20:31:30 <andythenorth> that's current released behaviour
20:32:00 <andythenorth> it's about 50:50 whether I want random for a train or not
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20:41:23 <andythenorth> give me a simple counter for how many times ctrl-click has been used on a vehicle :P
20:42:55 <andythenorth> 4 bits would be enough :P
20:45:26 <_dp_> funnily enough that's probably doable with a patched server :p
20:45:42 <andythenorth> forks are the future?
20:46:10 <_dp_> forks are the present! :p
20:48:29 <andythenorth> hmm this does need vehicle overlay
20:50:33 <andythenorth> better than...? :)
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21:12:08 <Wolf01> Better than ctrl+click
21:18:44 <andythenorth> everyone seems to hate the ctrl-click
21:18:55 <andythenorth> but every other UI for livery has been rejected out of hand
21:22:24 <b_jonas> what's wrong with the refit dialog?
21:25:54 <nielsm> it's not part of the purchase UI, it's annoying to change just some of the wagons, and it's called refit instead of select variant or something like that
21:29:12 <andythenorth> the livery refit spec was mixed up with cargos for some reason
21:29:24 <andythenorth> so if there are 64 cargos in the game, it's very long menu
21:29:29 <andythenorth> just to choose a livery
21:30:25 <andythenorth> also it's called 'cargo subtypes' in the docs
21:30:39 <andythenorth> but all the realism sets call it 'livery' so we should retcon it
21:40:32 <nielsm> "vehicle variants" would encompass both cargo and livery
21:40:58 <nielsm> and moving the button to the depot might also work, maybe
21:45:19 <andythenorth> it was just going to be done on IDs
21:45:24 <andythenorth> and disclosure in buy menu
21:45:29 <andythenorth> but that idea hasn't stuck :)
21:45:51 <andythenorth> we have plenty of IDs
21:46:14 <nielsm> something about the refits available only knowable after purchase?
21:48:25 <Wolf01> <andythenorth> everyone seems to hate the ctrl-click <- that's because hides features
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21:50:22 <andythenorth> but when I draw a GUI for it, it's rejected :)
21:50:25 <andythenorth> for getting in the way
21:54:42 <Wolf01> That hides the vehicles :P
21:55:57 <Wolf01> We should raise the rows by some pixels and make space for options which are shown only if vehicles supports them
21:59:18 <andythenorth> that was rejected earlier :)
21:59:21 <andythenorth> I asked for 400 pixels
22:00:24 <Wolf01> I was writing the same thing
22:02:28 <glx> maybe use the "dropdown" thing, but in vehicle window, there's a tab with each element on different lines
22:03:08 <glx> depot window is not the ideal place I think
22:03:58 <andythenorth> it's weird that we accept modifiers all over the place
22:04:05 <andythenorth> ctrl-drag, shift-click
22:04:09 <andythenorth> even ctrl-click in depot etc
22:04:11 <nielsm> reimagine the entire purchasing and assembling trains UI
22:04:12 <andythenorth> and in operating systems
22:04:25 <andythenorth> but we think this one specific use of ctrl-click is too wrong?
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22:04:45 <andythenorth> why is it ctrl-click to flip the vehicle obviously correct?
22:04:59 <andythenorth> nielsm templates :P
22:06:17 <frosch123> andythenorth: no, it is wrong
22:06:38 <frosch123> the depot is mainly a train list, and for moving stuff between trains
22:06:47 <frosch123> it's not for designing indivudal trains
22:07:12 <frosch123> i guess the template-based train patch added a separate gui for desiging consists
22:07:34 <glx> for me vehicle variant should be an option of buy window, and in vehicle details window, it has nothing to do in depot window
22:09:00 <frosch123> the ctrl+click for reversing trains should be removed imo :)
22:09:30 <glx> yeah reversing is usually broken ;)
22:09:55 <andythenorth> ctrl-click should increment a counter :P
22:10:04 <andythenorth> anyway, the variants-in-buy-menu
22:10:10 <andythenorth> is not very representative
22:10:14 <andythenorth> due to group livery setting
22:10:25 <andythenorth> or other newgrf bollocks
22:11:05 <andythenorth> some kind of 'configure my train' window?
22:15:48 <andythenorth> the 'more random is better' that frosch123 likes is kind of the opposite of 'perfectly configure my train'
22:15:54 <andythenorth> not sure a configure UI helps there
22:17:11 <andythenorth> so maybe layered approach
22:17:55 <frosch123> yes, i am pretty much a "i build many trains, i do not design them one-by-one"-player
22:18:01 <andythenorth> proposal 1) OpenTTD (not newgrf) gains a 'random company colour per vehicle from range' option (probably tied to group, not individual trains?)
22:18:48 <andythenorth> proposal 2) something something variants, that can be chosen either (A) before purchase or (B) changed after purchase (more fun for player)
22:19:19 <andythenorth> I see no reason why newgrf should be able to forbid (1) even though some authors might disagree
22:22:21 <andythenorth> I do think it might need to have rules for different vehicles though, e.g. wagons vs. engines
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22:25:52 <glx> for a passenger train I think all wagons should use the same livery, but for a cargo train a different livery per wagon looks better
22:26:49 <andythenorth> rework of current CC livery UI then :)
22:36:27 <Wolf01> <glx> for a passenger train I think all wagons should use the same livery, but for a cargo train a different livery per wagon looks better <- even on passenger trains there should be different graffitis
22:37:06 <glx> yeah but a common color scheme for the graffiti background
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23:45:34 <andythenorth> btw nml procedures have been so useful thanks :)
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