IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2020-07-31
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00:12:14 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz updated pull request #8285: Rewrite `OverflowSafeInt` to avoid undefined behaviour https://git.io/JJgcH
00:24:41 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8285: Rewrite `OverflowSafeInt` to avoid undefined behaviour https://git.io/JJ2cR
00:26:01 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on pull request #8285: Rewrite `OverflowSafeInt` to avoid undefined behaviour https://git.io/JJ2cz
00:26:37 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8285: Rewrite `OverflowSafeInt` to avoid undefined behaviour https://git.io/JJ2ca
00:29:37 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8285: Rewrite `OverflowSafeInt` to avoid undefined behaviour https://git.io/JJ2cw
00:35:51 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8285: Rewrite `OverflowSafeInt` to avoid undefined behaviour https://git.io/JJ2cd
00:36:52 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8285: Rewrite `OverflowSafeInt` to avoid undefined behaviour https://git.io/JJ2Ce
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00:54:14 <supermop_Home_> well now no one is here to see it
01:16:04 <Eddi|zuHause> what are we looking at?
01:25:20 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8285: Rewrite `OverflowSafeInt` to avoid undefined behaviour https://git.io/JJ2W3
03:00:05 <supermop_Home_> Eddi|zuHause the rgb values of the 5th shade of each cc, shaded by rendering in vray with neutral lighting
03:01:16 <supermop_Home_> basically, could you have rendered 32bpp sprites that evoke the same feeling as the 8bpp sprites, if you limit the rendering materials to colors in the DOS palette
03:02:30 <supermop_Home_> so you might end up with shades not in the palette, but the hues would at least be consistent
03:06:11 <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't understood a word of what you just said
03:07:24 <supermop_Home_> its more of a style approach i guess
03:08:27 <supermop_Home_> just force oneself to use the same set of colors when modeling items to render as one would when drawing pixels
03:08:43 <supermop_Home_> rather than just rendering and maybe clamping to the palette after the fact
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09:59:19 <andythenorth> better livery table...??
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11:50:26 <_dp_> andythenorth, blue background looks meh
11:51:08 <andythenorth> strictly it should be grey, but grey is so boring
11:52:08 <_dp_> otherwise it just blends with color rects and liveries
11:56:08 <_dp_> also you have 2 grey examples but no white :p
11:57:25 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not immediately obvious what the different liveries are supposed to show
11:59:36 <andythenorth> it's quite a BAD FEATURE
11:59:48 <andythenorth> I'm not sure it's anything other than confusing
12:00:05 <andythenorth> but I don't like the provided method for liveries in the newgrf spec :)
12:04:38 <_dp_> not sure I like the color but it works
12:05:07 <Eddi|zuHause> now the column separators disappear
12:05:25 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause good point thanks
12:05:32 <andythenorth> I think the blue can even be lighter maybe
12:05:42 <andythenorth> I'm using DOS palette colours for no good reason :P
12:11:03 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz updated pull request #8285: Rewrite `OverflowSafeInt` to avoid undefined behaviour https://git.io/JJgcH
12:12:46 <andythenorth> we could just do newgrf liveries
12:12:55 <andythenorth> but I don't really want to be involved in spec change :P
12:13:09 <andythenorth> and nobody has ever proposed an implementation that convinced anybody else
12:15:47 <milek7> huh, month ago I bought 4K monitors
12:16:16 <milek7> now I bought 1080p laptop and I'm already annoyed at yagged fonts :P
12:16:17 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: what problem is that meant to solve?
12:17:02 <Eddi|zuHause> see, that's the first problem with convincing anyone :p
12:17:09 <andythenorth> some grfs appear to be what pikka calls 'survey sets'
12:17:31 <andythenorth> and they have that awful livery interface via the refits
12:19:50 <andythenorth> for Iron Horse, wagons / coaches have 2 livery choices, selected by flipping in depot
12:19:58 <andythenorth> which is odd but works
12:20:13 <andythenorth> engines cannot use that as depot-flip is not available for articulated vehicles
12:20:41 <andythenorth> so I have been exploring using company colours
12:20:59 <andythenorth> this is only just viable, as it's quite confusing
12:21:33 <andythenorth> the 1CC colour(s) have to be chosen very carefully as they must be set via groups
12:21:41 <andythenorth> and the group can't set different colours for engines / wagons
12:21:54 <andythenorth> so some 1CC choices produce awful looking wagons/coaches
12:22:09 <andythenorth> also some 2CC combos have to be banned as they look very bad
12:24:27 <andythenorth> one proposal was vehicle variants (copies of the vehicle with a different ID), so the livery is just chosen explicitly via the buy menu
12:24:31 <andythenorth> but that idea died
12:25:10 <andythenorth> I did somewhat try one vehicle per livery in the buy menu, but it's quite spammy
12:25:39 <andythenorth> a further option I could explore is to set the engine livery depending on the cargo, or on wagons in the consist
12:26:33 <andythenorth> but not all liveries look good with all colour combos, so it might still need to check company colours
12:29:18 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> also some 2CC combos have to be banned as they look very bad <-- i kinda disagree.
12:29:20 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8285: Rewrite `OverflowSafeInt` to avoid undefined behaviour https://git.io/JJ2FF
12:29:33 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause arguably it's the player's choice?
12:29:40 <andythenorth> I'm 50:50 currently
12:30:34 <andythenorth> I'm also trying offering just 'default' and 'alternative'
12:30:44 <andythenorth> rather than 4 or 5 options with more confusing rules
12:34:27 <andythenorth> ok 1 alternative is easier to understand
12:34:35 <andythenorth> another case where 'more' is not better
12:41:50 <Eddi|zuHause> "most people" will only ever see one single livery
12:42:12 <andythenorth> my audience here is probably me, Supermop and Dave Worley
13:53:17 <andythenorth> oof I hate getattr() :P
13:53:52 <andythenorth> getattr(my_obj, 'foo, None) masks a lot of errors when refactoring 'foo' to 'bar'
13:54:02 <Eddi|zuHause> and i need to finish this astroneer automation challenge
13:54:30 <andythenorth> don't use getattr :P
13:54:50 <TrueBrain> use getattr with a lot of care, yes :)
13:55:12 <TrueBrain> it also breaks a lot of linting :)
13:56:07 <Eddi|zuHause> you could, like, use a variable "foo" that contains the text 'foo'
13:57:06 <Eddi|zuHause> that would massively reduce the places that need manual touching on refactoring
13:57:32 <Eddi|zuHause> alternatively, you could use try/except like normal people
14:00:31 <TrueBrain> I love the judgement call there, a true gatekeeper remark right there :)
14:01:53 <andythenorth> I enjoy eddi critiques
14:02:42 <andythenorth> 'normally' I just pollute the parent class with attrs that only some sub-classes need
14:02:51 <andythenorth> I decided to see what happens if I don't do that
14:03:00 <andythenorth> the answer is a lot of getattr() :P
14:03:10 <andythenorth> I suspect it's worse than polluting the parent class
14:03:28 <Eddi|zuHause> design patterns are weird :)
14:03:59 <andythenorth> "self.foo = None" turns out to just be more explicit for these cases
14:04:12 <andythenorth> where all the sub-classes are similar, and only have subtle differences
14:04:14 <Eddi|zuHause> people defend them religiously as if they were the pinacle of software development, yet all of them have significant downsides
14:04:40 <andythenorth> I thought recently about how much comp sci asserts 'science' and how much of it is just fashion
14:04:50 <andythenorth> people reach to defend a pattern or practice or habit
14:04:55 <andythenorth> with empirical evidence
14:05:18 <andythenorth> but it's usually a failure of induction vs. deduction
14:05:50 <Eddi|zuHause> that's a primary source of confirmation bias
14:06:29 <Eddi|zuHause> when you go looking for empirical evidence to support the thing you already deem true, you will find it.
14:07:19 <andythenorth> it attracts people who tend to model it as a maths problem
14:07:29 <andythenorth> due to it having quite a lot of maths-type problems
14:07:49 <andythenorth> but writing working software is often more like building a house than doing maths
14:08:28 <andythenorth> building systems at scale is nothing like building a house
14:08:38 <andythenorth> but nor is that a maths problem either
14:09:02 <andythenorth> and if you let linguists do the work, you get Perl :(
14:11:07 <Eddi|zuHause> or worse: cobol :p
14:51:37 <supermop_Home_> andythenorth i'm down for a supermop only horse release
14:51:50 <andythenorth> lot of unfinished sprites currently
14:52:04 <andythenorth> I can DM you what I have, at your risk :P
14:52:22 <andythenorth> also I stripped it down to 1 alternative livery per engine
14:52:57 <supermop_Home_> well i wasn't going to ise the EWS liveries anyway
15:01:03 <andythenorth> need an alternative gronk livery :P
15:01:15 <andythenorth> schenker is my favourite, but not until 2000s :P
15:01:34 <Timberwolf> Only problem with using TTD palette colours to build your objects is you end up with output where you may as well dither it down to 8bpp anyway, the difference is marginal.
15:02:00 <Timberwolf> (At least, unless you're on a low pixel density screen at high zoom)
15:02:36 <Timberwolf> The palette is quite good for "I already have this colour, I just want it lighter or darker"
15:03:18 <andythenorth> how's the play test going Timberwolf?
15:04:10 <Timberwolf> I have some annoying clipping bugs that really should be fixed, but I'm not sure if I want to fix it before first version or after.
15:04:36 <andythenorth> I always vote for 'later' when a set is quite new
15:04:40 <andythenorth> get it out there
15:05:01 <Timberwolf> The regular sprites when not going in to or out of a turn should be split in 3 so OpenTTD is rendering what it actually thinks it has, 3 articulated vehicles of L2/L4/L2.
15:05:23 <Timberwolf> Er, actually I just listed one of the cases where there are no clipping problems, pretend I said L3/L6/L3 :p
15:05:35 <andythenorth> sounds painful if cargo is included :)
15:05:40 <andythenorth> are you automating it?
15:05:52 <Timberwolf> Sprite stacks ftw.
15:06:34 <Timberwolf> I think I might get GoRender to do something like "only render this slice of object" rather than trying to create a million different subdivided types of train model
15:07:57 <Eddi|zuHause> Timberwolf: but isn't that exactly what i did in CETS?
15:09:31 <Timberwolf> Eddi|zuHause: I don't think I ever delved deep enough for that (I did look at how CETS did the turn switches), but it makes sense. I found the posts you wrote around the time you were prototyping that really helpful.
15:09:40 <Eddi|zuHause> Timberwolf: iirc there were a few corner cases with slopes/foundations
15:09:42 <supermop_Home_> andythenorth NSE
15:09:52 <andythenorth> supermop_Home_ doesn't work at pixel sizes :P
15:09:59 <andythenorth> have to do Extra Zoom :P
15:10:22 <Timberwolf> Yep, exactly that. Tunnels and depots, and tiles on foundations.
15:10:40 <Timberwolf> Stations on foundations are the biggest problem because it's the case where you see it for more than a split second.
15:10:43 <supermop_Home_> executive then?
15:11:02 <Eddi|zuHause> Timberwolf: iirc MB once did attempt to fix those, but he hasn't told me how he did it
15:11:21 <supermop_Home_> actually the gner 08 with the 1/3 length stripe is nice
15:11:50 <supermop_Home_> or virgin just plain red and black
15:12:23 <andythenorth> not enough pixels :P
15:12:24 <supermop_Home_> someone easily could have painted the virgin or gner liveries in the 50s
15:12:38 <Timberwolf> I'm mostly procrastinating on it because it means figuring out more alignments.
15:12:47 <Timberwolf> Alignments and me have a love/hate relationship.
15:13:10 <Timberwolf> On the one hand, what I'm doing is only possible because you can abuse xrel/yrel all over the place and OpenTTD will still render it.
15:13:17 <supermop_Home_> Timberwolf the idea is to not have to pick out all the lighter / darker shades
15:13:24 <Timberwolf> On the other... (runs screaming)
15:36:50 <supermop_Home_> though CC is not what i'd use this for
15:37:02 <supermop_Home_> just using that to test fidelity
15:38:04 <andythenorth> table? list? top trumps?
15:45:14 <supermop_Home_> i want to use it more to model buildings that are brick or concrete, with noise or displacement added, but with the hues in the spirit of the dos palette
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16:01:57 <Timberwolf> Once nice test case is recreate one of the Simon Foster sprites (or OpenGFX, I guess) using the pipeline.
16:12:15 <Eddi|zuHause> for a forest moon there isn't really all that much forest going on...
16:16:21 <andythenorth> pretty neat Timberwolf
16:19:29 <supermop_Home_> Timberwolf what are you working in?
16:33:21 <Timberwolf> MagicaVoxel for building the objects.
16:35:39 <Timberwolf> Then my own tooling for combining and rendering them (and templating NML) because I like things to go wrong during the build process and have them be my fault.
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17:16:29 <supermop_Home_> what i'm looking to do is a little different, as i am modeling furniture and buildings every day in rhino+grasshopper with v-ray, so looking for a way to make Foster-y looking renderings with the toolset i'm already using for work
17:17:51 <supermop_Home_> and hopefully if instead of using bitmap textures i use surfaces with palette colors applied, the end result after rendering and scaling will be something that doesn't look muddy or lifeless
17:20:46 <andythenorth> I frigging hate writing proper css, it's so wrong
17:21:04 <andythenorth> either inline styles on the tags, or generate the stylesheets
17:21:06 <andythenorth> don't write it :(
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17:29:03 <andythenorth> the war on inline css was the stupidest thing ever
17:29:16 * andythenorth starts a newsletter
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18:14:33 <andythenorth> I hate frigging <dl>
18:14:45 <andythenorth> because <table> is banned, have to use stupid fucking definition lists
18:15:07 <andythenorth> but they can't be styled how I want as they have very strict flow control rules
18:21:10 <_dp_> andythenorth, display:table; :p
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18:33:26 <andythenorth> le supermop_Home_ ^ c'est improve?
18:35:30 <andythenorth> this is the stupid definition list crap
18:35:51 <andythenorth> which I have to use because some dude wrote a blog post once
18:36:23 <_dp_> that's ff 79 on linux fyi
18:36:40 <andythenorth> I hate this crap :|
18:36:45 <andythenorth> maybe I have beer
18:38:22 <andythenorth> the current html fashion du jour rules are this
18:38:30 <andythenorth> 1. if you have a linear list, use a list
18:38:50 <andythenorth> 2. if you smoke crack, re-create tabular data in other structures, like nested divs, or dumb crap
18:39:07 <andythenorth> 3. if you don't smoke crack, use <table> for tabular data....EXCEPT
18:39:47 <andythenorth> 4. when the data only contains 1 set of headings and 1 set of values, in which case anyone who doesn't use <dl> is killing kittens and causing the heat death of the universe
18:40:25 <andythenorth> 5. if you have a reporting system which can generate data with headings and 1..n columns, rule 4 ruins your day
18:40:42 <andythenorth> I am definitely having beer, this is mad
18:59:10 <supermop_Home_> andy just design a printed typeset binder that you mail to the users
18:59:54 <supermop_Home_> you can mail out addenda and errata later to those who subscribe
19:00:09 <andythenorth> then the typography geeks will come after me
19:00:25 <andythenorth> oof the problem is people eh
19:00:39 <supermop_Home_> then you can spend all your time on kerning instead of drawing sprites or coding industries
19:02:10 <andythenorth> supermop_Home_ or analysing bleed on different paper stocks
19:02:13 <_dp_> andythenorth, well, ofc, it's bloody tables :/
19:03:06 <andythenorth> I've used a table
19:03:15 <andythenorth> and the data is barely 2 dimensional
19:03:28 <andythenorth> I mean, strictly, it is 2 dimensional
19:03:32 <_dp_> I was actually curious how you fixed it untill I looked at the code xD
19:03:47 <andythenorth> every few years I try to use a dl
19:03:55 <_dp_> because I've no idea where that dl got 5px margin
19:04:04 <andythenorth> I have to remind myself that most web pages are coded by fuckwits
19:04:14 <andythenorth> and most of the 'standards' advice is given by fuckwits
19:04:25 <andythenorth> people who are neither designers, nor programmers
19:04:39 <andythenorth> oh wait, that's like me :(
19:05:05 <andythenorth> ok now we just need the url shortener in bananas
19:05:13 <andythenorth> and a link from each vehicle in purchase menu
19:05:16 <_dp_> dl is some responsibility/mobile thing iirc
19:05:40 <andythenorth> dl is an argument about semantics of 2-dimensional data about a single entity or single set of values
19:06:12 <andythenorth> + a load of bullshit about "table tag is banned" or "table tag is not accessible" or "table tag is slow to render" and other crap
19:06:32 <andythenorth> oof clearly I woke up grumpy andythenorth
19:06:47 <andythenorth> someone should kick andythenorth :P
19:07:22 <_dp_> I usually just do class="dl-horizontal" :p
19:07:35 <andythenorth> so should I put in the images for the 'replaces' 'replaced by trains'?
19:07:41 <andythenorth> also a link to tech tree :P
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19:09:09 <andythenorth> I want to format '2900hp' as '2,900hp' but that will trigger the Euro people?
19:13:57 <LordAro> needs more localisation
19:16:21 <b_jonas> you already have a thousands separator for oil quantity I think
19:19:45 <andythenorth> LordAro absence of any localisation so far :P
19:22:11 <b_jonas> it's a graphical sandbox simulation game, not a story-based one with lots of dialog. it doesn't need more i18n than an English and a Japanese version.
19:25:25 <andythenorth> are we talking about train whack?
19:25:38 <LordAro> andythenorth: there is no other game
19:28:31 <_dp_> crazy idea of the day: combine train whack with profit calculator xD
19:29:50 <andythenorth> or a calculator for how many tiles of slope you can go up before your train stops?
19:32:44 <andythenorth> anybody want to convert the ottd train physics to a python version? :P
19:32:47 <andythenorth> can't be that hard?
19:34:22 <_dp_> andythenorth, with old one it will always be 1 tile :p
19:34:51 <andythenorth> OTTD Resurection
20:07:22 <supermop_Home_> Wolf01 this has happen to me in many games when re-working signals
20:08:21 <Wolf01> You see the engineer run away as the trains stops? You must have an insane resolution screen :P
20:11:31 <supermop_Home_> i am sure this is possible in new grf
20:12:30 <supermop_Home_> "if train reverse button clicked while moving, draw fleeing engineer sprite"
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21:35:26 <andythenorth> supermop_Home_ I did some of the descriptions :P
21:35:38 <andythenorth> such backstory, such rich historical detail
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21:57:18 <Eddi|zuHause> ah finally i've managed to set up an automatted astronium miner
21:57:23 <supermop_Home_> I'M liking these andy
21:57:54 <supermop_Home_> i also like the pink stripe railfreight
22:03:16 <andythenorth> I want to show related engines on the page, or visualise some part of the tech tree or something
22:03:28 <andythenorth> it feels very easy to get lost currently
22:08:36 <supermop_Home_> well i refrained from buying sneakers today
22:09:06 <supermop_Home_> unfortunately didn't refrain from buying oxfords though
22:09:42 <supermop_Home_> let's take the trains out for a spin andy
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22:29:53 <andythenorth> supermop_Home_ grf.farm/iron-horse/dev/iron-horse-2.7.0-108-gbccd3b80.tar
22:30:18 <andythenorth> may not be there forever :P, temp url
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