IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2020-07-06
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01:40:31 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Hexus-One updated pull request #7607: Feature Request/WIP: Rail Planner track builder https://git.io/fjB7y
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05:36:24 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Moth-Tolias commented on pull request #7607: Feature Request/WIP: Rail Planner track builder https://git.io/JJI18
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08:33:41 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Hexus-One commented on pull request #7607: Feature Request/WIP: Rail Planner track builder https://git.io/JJIHO
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11:15:59 <Eddi|zuHause> can't you just push to it to unstale?
11:18:34 <andythenorth> I can very definitely use that as inspiration
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12:29:57 <Timberwolf> Fancy working in the Longbridge Conveyor Bridge? ;)
13:03:23 <andythenorth> Timberwolf how *do* you sprite so fast also?
13:03:41 <andythenorth> for Iron Horse 2 I was getting 2 trains done per calendar day (averaged)
13:03:48 <andythenorth> they're 8bpp and mostly copy-paste :P
13:06:07 <Timberwolf> I build everything in MagicaVoxel, then I have a bunch of stuff which renders them to sprites.
13:06:33 <Timberwolf> It does have some quality issues and the 8bpp 1x stuff is definitely way worse than hand-drawn.
13:06:46 <andythenorth> the 2x stuff looks great though
13:07:03 <andythenorth> at 8bpp, I'm not really drawing the train, I'm drawing an impression of the train
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13:07:27 <Timberwolf> I have been wondering how many outputs I'd need to correct manually to train a neural net to do it.
13:08:16 <andythenorth> from source images?
13:08:28 <Timberwolf> Not quite that ambitious :)
13:08:31 <Eddi|zuHause> there's some fun AI research papers on which subset of images you need to show to a human to tell the AI they're good/bad
13:08:57 <andythenorth> afaik, we're pretty good now at getting 3D shapes from photos?
13:09:03 <Timberwolf> Just taking the voxel renderer output and correcting things like company colours bleeding into the wrong place, etc.
13:09:07 <andythenorth> I don't know that for a fact mind :P
13:09:26 <andythenorth> you should teach it the common artefacts of a train gestalt
13:09:31 <andythenorth> windows, wheels, doors etc
13:10:35 <Eddi|zuHause> the point of the exercise is to find "dead end" AI behaviours where they think they figured it out, but it's some pathologic case that happens to be true for only a small subset of the problem
13:12:47 <Eddi|zuHause> say, if you wan to train an AI to flip a pancake in a pan. and you divide that into the first problem of "just balance the pan so the pancake stays off the floor as long as possible. the AI might decide that the optimal strategy is to fling it as high as possible, as that maximises the time it takes to hit the floor
13:14:00 <Eddi|zuHause> if you take sporadic screenshots of the AI doing its thing, and ask a human to judge whether the thing looks good or not, you can catch such "wrong" paths
13:36:53 <CornsMcGowan[m]> Eddi|zuHause: ive been pushing commits but it still has stale tag
13:38:00 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not like the tag has any real meaning anyway
13:38:21 <LordAro> CornsMcGowan[m]: it's a tag
13:38:26 <LordAro> there's nothing automatic about it
13:40:33 <CornsMcGowan[m]> andythenorth: Yeah photogrammetry works really well nowadays, but needs much higher resolutions than x1 sprites
13:40:50 <CornsMcGowan[m]> LordAro: ah i see
13:44:24 <CornsMcGowan[m]> re: bridges over bridges, is there any value that corresponds to the height of the upper part of the bridge? eg viaducts are short, girder is taller, suspension bridge is very tall
13:45:34 <CornsMcGowan[m]> time to bake some in i guess
14:09:41 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Hexus-One updated pull request #7607: Feature: Rail/Road/Tram/Canal-Planner (WIP) https://git.io/fjB7y
14:32:23 <andythenorth> that happened then :)
14:35:07 <andythenorth> haven't tried it in game
14:41:44 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Hexus-One updated pull request #7607: Feature: Rail/Road/Tram/Canal-Planner (WIP) https://git.io/fjB7y
14:47:21 <CornsMcGowan[m]> whats the go with reviving closed PRs?
14:48:11 <CornsMcGowan[m]> if aqueducts are indeed similar to tunnels then i think they should exhibit the same terraforming behaviours
14:48:15 <andythenorth> depends if it was closed as rejected, or closed due to the draining away of interest
14:48:24 <andythenorth> PRs for the second case can be re-opened
14:48:24 <CornsMcGowan[m]> closed from lack of interest it seems
14:48:33 <CornsMcGowan[m]> i will put my case forwards
14:48:35 <andythenorth> but it might well be cleaner to do do another new PR
14:49:03 <andythenorth> yeah I'd be prepared to re-open that one
14:49:30 <andythenorth> but if your solution isn't as per the original title, you might just want a new one
14:50:38 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Hexus-One commented on pull request #7078: Feature: Raise a corner of land automatically when building aqueducts https://git.io/JJLLx
14:55:23 <andythenorth> ok I can't actually re-open it, button is disabled in GH
14:55:33 <andythenorth> probably because the underlying branch has changed
14:56:05 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #7078: Feature: Raise a corner of land automatically when building aqueducts https://git.io/JJLtu
14:56:09 <CornsMcGowan[m]> seems to be just a single commit
15:05:03 <CornsMcGowan[m]> last time i asked lordaro to reopen a PR, i needed to push a new commit to it first
15:05:07 <CornsMcGowan[m]> that might be what's needed
15:05:19 <LordAro> you needed to push the *original* commit to it
15:05:28 <LordAro> if a branch has been force pushed to, it can't be reopened
15:05:40 <LordAro> (as far as github is concerned it's a new branch)
15:08:57 <CornsMcGowan[m]> samuxarick PR'ed like a billion features/changes/fixes
15:09:59 <andythenorth> quite a lot got closed
15:10:27 <CornsMcGowan[m]> yeah i don't see a single one accepted
15:10:29 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Still hoping for someone to approve #150, then we can release without known bugs :p
15:12:17 <CornsMcGowan[m]> actually i have no way of telling if the branch PR was accepted
15:13:22 <LordAro> CornsMcGowan[m]: samu is quite good at finding issues, not so good at fixing them
15:13:36 <LordAro> not in the "correct" way, anyway
15:13:47 <LordAro> tends to miss the bigger picture
15:14:21 <FLHerne> ISTR one or two of those did get merged, and turned out to cause regressions...
15:25:12 <DorpsGek> milek7: Samu was last seen in #openttd 5 days, 2 hours, 12 minutes, and 24 seconds ago: <Samu> '.gitignore'
15:25:37 <CornsMcGowan[m]> whats a regression in this context
15:25:43 <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh nvm just googled it
15:26:03 <CornsMcGowan[m]> so its a bug fix that causes more bugs
15:26:13 <CornsMcGowan[m]> or bugs caused by the introduction of a bug fix
15:26:30 <LordAro> (we also have the regression AI tests)
15:26:44 <LordAro> which try to test for other unforeseen changes)
15:29:23 <andythenorth> "#1 cause of software bugs is software changes"
15:29:31 * andythenorth abuses a google SRE statistic a bit
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15:34:11 <CornsMcGowan[m]> time to find that one line that enables bridges over bridges
15:36:46 <CornsMcGowan[m]> also: have underground canals ever been considered?
15:37:15 <andythenorth> you mean tunnels?
15:37:25 <CornsMcGowan[m]> had a brainfart :p
15:37:33 <andythenorth> visual clipping issue with most ships
15:37:40 <LordAro> can't make it work without horrendous clip-
15:37:53 <andythenorth> tyler has just done a canal boats grf
15:37:58 <andythenorth> not sure if it's NRT or not
15:38:05 <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh the little tiny boats
15:39:21 <andythenorth> if boats are done as road vehicles, they can be articulated
15:39:33 <CornsMcGowan[m]> boats as road vehicles...
15:40:02 <andythenorth> there's also WETrail for ships as trains
15:40:38 <andythenorth> using the canal cheat, they can be routed 'across' water
15:42:14 <CornsMcGowan[m]> canal cheat :o
15:43:53 <andythenorth> I guess it's not really a cheat, just an artefact
15:44:15 <CornsMcGowan[m]> are canals just secretly all 6 rail directions overlaid
15:56:36 <CornsMcGowan[m]> <CornsMcGowan[m] "time to find that one line that "> found it
15:56:43 <CornsMcGowan[m]> lets see how glitchy this looks
16:00:28 <CornsMcGowan[m]> nvm failed an assert when i tried to build
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16:30:38 <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh so some info about bridges is stored in the map data
16:30:58 <CornsMcGowan[m]> but is designed such that only one bridge can exist per tile
16:32:33 <LordAro> you're saying the system wasn't designed for more than one bridge?
16:32:48 <CornsMcGowan[m]> the game was rigged from the start
16:33:59 <CornsMcGowan[m]> how are tunnels stored, then
16:34:15 <LordAro> much the same, i belive
16:34:23 <LordAro> they're both fairly magic about it
16:35:31 <CornsMcGowan[m]> i wonder if tunnels over tunnels were permitted in TTD
16:36:11 <LordAro> they're permitted in OTTD, if you turn the cheat on
16:36:28 <LordAro> hmm, i guess not the same then
16:37:46 <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh i just mean like, at different height (z?) levels
16:39:42 <CornsMcGowan[m]> tunnel_map.h shows tunnels are stored in m5, m6, m8 i think
16:40:14 <CornsMcGowan[m]> FLHerne: re: tunnels over tunels in TTD?
16:40:45 <FLHerne> Sorry, didn't scroll all the way down - re > are canals just secretly all 6 rail directions overlaid?
16:41:05 <FLHerne> (which is why the ship pathfinder is so damn slow)
16:42:00 <CornsMcGowan[m]> now i want to see the YAPF code
16:42:12 <CornsMcGowan[m]> but the paths are cached now right
16:42:33 <LordAro> (those come with a different set of problems, of course)
16:46:05 <CornsMcGowan[m]> okay i'm not focused enough to decipher yapf_ship.cpp
16:46:11 <CornsMcGowan[m]> even though i've implemented A* before
16:47:58 <LordAro> it's ok, A* isn't in there
16:48:13 <LordAro> i guarantee it's like no other A* you've seen before
16:48:19 <CornsMcGowan[m]> it's non-heuristic?
16:48:55 <LordAro> i imagine ships probably use manhatten distance
16:49:58 <FLHerne> I'm not sure that's true
16:50:01 <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh shouldn't they use DistanceMax instead
16:52:12 <LordAro> (disclaimer: i know very little about YAPF, other than it uses A* internally *somewhere*, and that it's template hell)
16:52:42 <CornsMcGowan[m]> ive heard of C++ templates before
16:52:47 <CornsMcGowan[m]> never learnt about them
16:54:21 <CornsMcGowan[m]> also yeah it uses a heuristic, tries to get as close as possible to the uh
16:55:37 <CornsMcGowan[m]> imo its needlessly accurate
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17:00:22 <trooper> is it ok not to release sources with grf under GPLv2?
17:00:40 <andythenorth> on request, or distributed with the grf?
17:01:17 <andythenorth> FSF has FAQs about this
17:01:23 <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh do you mean release grf as GPLv2 and then withhold the source?
17:02:11 <trooper> I asked for sources on the forum
17:02:31 <trooper> but people there say that it is ok not to release them
17:02:53 <LordAro> you don't technically have to actively release them, but you must provide them when requested
17:03:26 <andythenorth> it's mostly clear
17:03:31 <andythenorth> there is one ambiguity
17:03:44 <andythenorth> all of the examples are about modifications to GPL licensed works
17:03:50 <nielsm> basically you have to at least include instructions on how to obtain the source and ensure anyone who wants the source can get it
17:04:01 <andythenorth> I didn't find anything about original authors being obliged to provide sources
17:04:05 <andythenorth> I'm sure that's covered somewhere
17:04:09 <trooper> can I ask them to provide sources of the set?
17:04:14 <andythenorth> you can and you did
17:04:57 <trooper> all the licencing mentioned with grfs releases is a bullshit ?
17:05:03 <trooper> all the licensing mentioned with grfs releases is a bullshit ?
17:06:19 <LordAro> well that's a full blown license dispute now
17:06:28 <nielsm> if they claim to be releasing the work under GPLv2 but refuse to give you the complete sources then they are not honouring their own license
17:06:57 <nielsm> they basically offered you the usage rights under false pretense
17:07:01 <andythenorth> oh there was more argument in the thread?
17:07:17 <LordAro> andythenorth: i just kept scrolling
17:07:30 <LordAro> dunno if there's anything previous
17:07:32 <andythenorth> I read it this morning, it has changed :P
17:08:14 <LordAro> i don't know if an author can retroactively change the license of something
17:08:21 <trooper> I'm just new to the community, I started my server about a week ago
17:08:50 <andythenorth> if I've understood correctly, they've invalidly licensed as GPL v2
17:08:55 <trooper> I never thought that it is legal not to release the sources covered by GPL
17:09:26 <trooper> they just don't provide sources by request
17:09:31 <andythenorth> if it was a valid GPL v2 license they would need to provide the sources
17:09:38 <andythenorth> but the GPL v2 is invalid
17:09:48 <andythenorth> as they don't have copyright permissions to apply GPL v2
17:09:57 <andythenorth> GPL is based on copyright, even though it's copyleft
17:09:59 <trooper> so do you mean that all licensing on banana is a bullshit?
17:10:08 <andythenorth> that is a big claim to be honest
17:10:17 <andythenorth> I don't understand how you escalate to that statement
17:10:31 <trooper> I just asked for a source
17:10:42 <trooper> I don't want to use it just examine
17:11:00 <nielsm> if they claim the GRF is GPLv2 licensed then you are in your right to demand the sources
17:11:07 <trooper> banana site says the set is licensed under GPLv2
17:11:16 <andythenorth> their license sounds like it's illegal
17:11:25 <andythenorth> you can't just steal things and GPL them
17:11:29 <andythenorth> that's not how it works
17:11:30 <trooper> community says that I can't ask for the sources
17:11:46 <andythenorth> don't confuse 'community' with one dude in a thread
17:11:53 <andythenorth> that's such a fallacy
17:12:05 <andythenorth> dude / dudette / whatever / person
17:12:09 <nielsm> <andythenorth> you can't just steal things and GPL them <-- but let's not consider whether reverse-engineering a commercial product is stealing sources
17:12:30 <andythenorth> 'apparently it's ok in Germany' or something nielsm
17:12:40 <andythenorth> but anyway, distractions :P
17:12:52 <andythenorth> it looks to me like CZ set have made a silly mistake
17:13:53 <trooper> lol I just wanted to translate the road set and I don't wont to dig into nfo....
17:14:17 <nielsm> are you turning this into an X/Y problem now? :)
17:14:33 <nielsm> if you want to translate then start out by offering that instead of asking for sources
17:15:35 <trooper> I don't want to wait for them to release a new version I'll do a hot fix in a new grw and send them a patch
17:15:43 <trooper> that is a usual way for opensource
17:16:13 <trooper> I did that for xUSSR set
17:17:47 <trooper> not sure why they refuse to provide nml
17:18:54 <glx> you can always use grfcodec to get NFO from GRF, but it's harder to read
17:19:31 <trooper> yep I did that and yes it is harder to read and I can't send them a patch
17:36:26 <Timberwolf> I'm never quite sure what you class as "source code" for a grf. In theory could you comply just by providing NML/NFO and PNG files?
17:37:43 <nielsm> if the development of the art involves 3D models that get rendered, and are not manually edited after rendering, then the 3D models would be the source
17:38:57 <nielsm> but GPL is very focused on software source code and is difficult to apply to other things
17:39:24 <Timberwolf> I think if you got as far as court you'd end up with a lot of arguining about 'The source code for a work means the preferred form of the work for making modifications to it.'
17:44:54 <trooper> at least it is the code they send to nml compiler
17:46:45 <andythenorth> the source is what is reasonably needed to build the project in a sensible workflow
17:46:55 <andythenorth> because GPL doesn't cover art assets, it would be a bunfight about those
17:47:14 <andythenorth> we've discussed it before, and 3D models would seem to be in scope
17:48:01 <andythenorth> but if those 3D models are on an incompatible public license (e.g. Creative Commons), there would be some caveats
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17:53:08 <trooper> they just refuse to provide any source even just sprites + nml
17:59:03 <andythenorth> I have replied in the thread, this will get resolved
17:59:06 <andythenorth> one way or the other
18:04:25 <trooper> ya I can't force them to release the sources so they will just disappear for a while...
18:05:48 <nielsm> we should add a way for ottd to load external language files for grf's
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18:08:47 <b_jonas> 1395 tons of oil? I didn't know oil well production can go so high
18:11:41 <milek7> some people don't subscribe to spirit of opensource
18:11:43 <milek7> there's so much drama and wars generated about who copied what, permissions, etc.. :(
18:11:53 <milek7> (not talking about ottd specifically)
18:13:16 <milek7> trooper: most likely it never was GPL
18:13:24 <milek7> just incorrect annotation
18:15:01 <b_jonas> but the extra zeroes always make it look bigger than it is
18:17:12 <trooper> milek7 hope they will not charge $$$ for using their GRF on my server
18:20:34 <Eddi|zuHause> trooper: thing is, if a thing is not legal, doesn't prevent anyone from doing it anyway
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18:22:15 <trooper> ya I know I know I'll just decompile their sources
18:22:28 <Eddi|zuHause> like the dude who's in charge of the police in our country, stopped a study about racial profiling because: "there can't be racial profiling because our rules of conduct forbid racial profiling"
18:23:27 <trooper> ya who cares about all these licensing bullshit
18:23:38 <trooper> just take what you can and use
18:24:49 <Eddi|zuHause> well, people should care about it, but a bunch of them don't take it as seriously as they should
18:29:13 <andythenorth> nielsm +1 to external files
18:29:28 <andythenorth> I'm not sure I ever want random language translation PRs arriving on my machine again
18:29:38 <andythenorth> it's just one extra thing to be concerned about
18:29:52 <andythenorth> I'd rather see translations provided elsewhere
18:35:13 <b_jonas> I'm adding second stops in some cities to my vac train lines to collect more passengers
18:41:01 <andythenorth> trooper I can't be arsed with the forum thread, as it will just descend into nitpick madness....
18:41:17 <andythenorth> you can't make a valid GPL claim against an invalid GPL license
18:41:52 <andythenorth> if they 'licensed' illegally, the GPL is not in effect
18:45:40 <trooper> what is in effect then?
18:45:54 <trooper> can I use their GRF on my server?
18:46:00 <andythenorth> it's complete shambles
18:46:01 <trooper> or they will ask me to pay them
18:46:19 <trooper> they include GPL with GRF what does this mean?
18:46:32 <andythenorth> in this case, nothing, if what they say is true
18:47:11 <andythenorth> it should not be distributed as GPL if it's not valid GPL
18:47:16 <trooper> what is more true a licence.txt next to grf in a tar archive or "someone" words on the tt-forum?
18:48:21 <andythenorth> I understand the question, but it's not a useful question
18:49:13 <andythenorth> GPL is based on licence.txt being trustworthy
18:49:22 <andythenorth> but it cannot enforce that license.txt is legal
18:49:40 <andythenorth> simply adding license.txt doesn't make a thing valid GPL, that would be woo
18:50:02 <trooper> tey already signed BANANA TOS
18:50:26 <trooper> where they claim that they own all sources
18:50:54 <trooper> are you trying to say that licenses mean nothing and I can just ignore them?
18:51:50 <Eddi|zuHause> frankly, if they don't have a valid license, bananas should just remove their grf and be done with it
18:51:59 <andythenorth> are you wilfully misunderstanding trooper ?
18:52:05 <andythenorth> or is it lost in translation?
18:52:31 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause I am minded the same way
18:52:44 <andythenorth> I don't know about all the bollocks around not breaking precious savegames
18:52:55 <trooper> umm removing from banana is a bad I dea
18:52:57 <trooper> umm removing from banana is a bad I dea
18:53:05 <andythenorth> TrueBrain if a grf claims to be GPL but isn't, is that a bananas takedown y|n? (sorry)
18:53:16 <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't matter if they couldn't license it gpl in the first place, or violated gpl by not responding to a source code request properly (and thus voiding the GPL)
18:53:33 <andythenorth> if we're distributing illegal content, we can be DMCAed
18:53:47 <andythenorth> it's a pain in the arse and creates admin work
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19:02:01 <CornsMcGowan[m]> fixed the jgrpp compile problem
19:02:08 <CornsMcGowan[m]> with newgrf_version being different
19:02:24 <CornsMcGowan[m]> by..hand editing the value in rev.cpp
19:05:01 <Borg> b_jonas: smooth economy on?
19:13:24 <dP> if I understand gpl correctly it's illegal to distribute stuff that has no available sources
19:13:40 <dP> more interesting problem is that it probably applies to half of bananas content xD
19:13:54 <andythenorth> it's not illegal to do that
19:14:06 <dP> andythenorth, "For example, if you distribute copies of such a program, whether gratis or for a fee, you must give the recipients all the rights that you have. You must make sure that they, too, receive or can get the source code"
19:14:25 <andythenorth> yeah, actually I think you're right
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19:15:39 <dP> andythenorth, that's kind of the whole point of copyleft :p
19:21:02 <trooper> I can't beleve my eyes
19:21:06 <b_jonas> Borg: yes, smooth economy changes is on
19:21:41 <trooper> they say You sound like we are OBLIGED to post our sources like it was MANDATORY. Quick news - we are not.
19:21:42 <andythenorth> dP what does 'has no available' mean to you?
19:21:55 <trooper> GPL Opensource ahahahaaaa muhahahah
19:22:11 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: that question is difficult to answer without context; do you perceive it as not being GPL or is it clear that it violated? :)
19:22:40 <trooper> LICENCE.txt is included in tar and can be opened ingame
19:22:58 <dP> andythenorth, well, whatever it means in gpl, it allows to provide it by request iirc but I that even if you find authors for many old grf they could still find those sources xD
19:24:07 <dP> also bananas kinda have to "make sure" whatever that means :p
19:24:11 <TrueBrain> if you as author no longer have the source of GPL code, there isn't really any issue ;)
19:24:25 <TrueBrain> GPL is about if I take your source, modify it, I have to be able to hand over the source upon request
19:24:30 <andythenorth> dP do we modify the source?
19:25:39 <TrueBrain> but andythenorth , why are you bring this up anyway? License discussions often only lead to weird discussions with no end, as everyone is a lawyer ;)
19:26:00 <dP> TrueBrain, well I cited gpl v2 few messages earlier, distributor of binaries have to make sure sources are available.
19:26:16 <TrueBrain> dP: and who can challenge if they don't? :D
19:26:19 <dP> TrueBrain, it may not be a real issue in case of lost source but still a violation of gpl if you ask me :p
19:26:39 <TrueBrain> violation a license the owner of that license doesn't care about, is a bit of a mute argument ;)
19:27:43 <TrueBrain> I wonder what a court will say about it ... "JUDGE! I want that I pay myself 20,000 euro in fines! This is not acceptable that I violated my own license!" :D
19:29:17 <TrueBrain> but as mention, all I saw was andythenorth walk to a firepit, put on some food, a jerrycan of gasoline, lit it, and walked away in silent :)
19:29:55 * Timberwolf is getting lost in the wormhole of autolitigation cases.
19:30:58 <Timberwolf> Looks like they generally get thrown out :)
19:31:18 <trooper> banana and ff-forum is really in a bad situation as they "distribute" illegal content
19:32:08 <TrueBrain> trooper: is that a statement, or a question?
19:32:14 <dP> TrueBrain, author of grf licensed under gpl v2 admitted the can't share sources
19:32:30 <TrueBrain> trooper: as be VERY careful, there is a HUGE difference between the license and the right to distribute
19:32:54 <TrueBrain> dP: I will read, but I am not aware the license owner has to show source :)
19:33:26 <TrueBrain> well, you would be in violation of your own license, but meh :)
19:33:34 <trooper> TrueBrain I just asked the source of GPLv2 set to make my translation
19:33:44 <trooper> and it turned into all this shit
19:34:16 <TrueBrain> trooper: that happens :) 90% of the population doesn't understand licenses, and of the remaining 10% too few give a fuck .. which is not a good state, but says a lot about how complex licenses have become :) So that is no real surprise to me, tbh
19:34:20 <TrueBrain> let me read up a bit
19:34:43 <dP> TrueBrain, yes ofc you can't force sources out of them, but main question here is about bananas
19:35:04 <TrueBrain> there you mix up license vs distribution rights :)
19:35:17 <trooper> I don't want to do any harm to bananas or ottd or other devs & authors
19:35:30 <TrueBrain> random quotes, just to give a bit of background:
19:35:36 <TrueBrain> trooper: "The problem is that you can't change the license of the content that was already released under GPLv2" <- an author can always change license
19:35:50 <TrueBrain> he is the copyright owner, he can do what-ever-the-fuck-he-wants, in basic terms :)
19:36:06 <TrueBrain> you do need permission of ALL authors btw
19:36:08 <trooper> TrueBrain to new releases
19:36:32 <dP> TrueBrain, author can change license for a new content, that doesn't make old one magically legal
19:36:38 <trooper> you can't make an free software be not free
19:36:49 <andythenorth> you can't make a not free software be free
19:36:53 <TrueBrain> dP: again, it feels like you are conflicted about license vs distribution here :)
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19:37:03 <TrueBrain> but that might be my interpretation of what you say :)
19:37:20 <TrueBrain> trooper: the binary out there will remain to have its license as it; new ones can change
19:37:29 <TrueBrain> this is not bound to "releases" in the sense we normally see releases
19:37:35 <TrueBrain> which makes it a bit .. weird
19:37:36 <dP> TrueBrain, well, mb, since I don't know the difference xD but in my eyes gpl covers distribution as well
19:37:36 <trooper> andythenorth> you can't make a not free software be free --- TRUE
19:37:42 <trooper> you need a new release
19:37:49 <TrueBrain> but they can republish their grf again with another license, with no changes what so ever
19:37:59 <andythenorth> the current grf is a copyright violation, according to the thread
19:38:19 <TrueBrain> dP: what I mean is: as long as the original author uploaded the GRF, our ToS gives us permission to redistribute their files
19:38:24 <TrueBrain> this is the right to distribute they grant us
19:38:35 <TrueBrain> this from time to time breaks if people fuck up, and upload content they do not own
19:38:45 <TrueBrain> which is why we pull down files from time to time
19:38:46 <dP> TrueBrain, our tos does, but gpl doesn't
19:39:02 <andythenorth> GPL is actually irrelevant to the bananas question
19:39:11 <TrueBrain> our ToS gives us right to distribute; it superseeds any license, if it even mentions it
19:39:26 <TrueBrain> the other content we pull down, is if content is in clear violation of a license of someone else
19:39:40 <TrueBrain> say, you take a closed-source-DO-NOT-COPY license GRF, repack it, and upload it
19:39:46 <dP> TrueBrain, if I write a tos to give myself rights to sell windows does that make it legal?
19:39:49 <TrueBrain> we will pull that down, as you are clearly in violation of the other's license
19:40:00 <TrueBrain> dP: again, distribution rights
19:40:18 <TrueBrain> the ToS gives us a (limited) distribution license for files uploaded
19:40:28 <nielsm> GPL allows anyone to redistribute the work
19:40:48 <TrueBrain> nielsm: providing source, yes :)
19:41:08 <TrueBrain> but what I am trying to say: BaNaNaS has little to do with the license of the uploaded content
19:41:40 <TrueBrain> the only exception being as I mentioned above, if an author challenge his use of his license on other content (which sadly enough happens)
19:41:48 <andythenorth> the only question for bananas: is this a copyright violation?
19:42:01 <TrueBrain> which only the original author can challenge, basically
19:42:04 <andythenorth> nobody has filed a request with us AFAIK
19:42:16 <andythenorth> we have evidence that it *is* a copyright violation
19:42:22 <andythenorth> but we haven't been asked to act
19:42:30 <TrueBrain> of course in most countries you have this concept of willfully distribution of illegal content
19:42:39 <TrueBrain> but this is not illegal content in any sense
19:43:01 <nielsm> well I suppose, for content with a copyleft license bananas ought to require the author to also upload the sources, so bananas can redistribute those as well
19:43:02 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I even disagree on that; this feels like an overreaction to people who did not understand licenses correctly
19:43:12 <TrueBrain> the best solution is for them to upload a new version with the correct license
19:43:38 <andythenorth> this is only civil law, and civil law works on the basis of remedies
19:43:40 <TrueBrain> nielsm: that is not the job of a distribution platform; but it would solve people picking wrong licenses
19:43:42 <andythenorth> there is a simple remedy here
19:43:51 <andythenorth> change the license, it was an honest mistake
19:43:58 <TrueBrain> a good addition would be to add to the web-interface a notice with these licenses: the spirit of the license is that you distribute your source code
19:45:02 <trooper> you can't change the license of the released libs
19:45:15 <TrueBrain> people make mistakes; that is part of life
19:45:28 <TrueBrain> either of two things happen: either they upload a new version with the right license, or they ragequit
19:45:28 <trooper> this is the only possible option
19:45:33 <TrueBrain> not sure if the latter benefits anyone
19:45:43 <TrueBrain> trooper: don't talk in extremes; it is pointless
19:45:49 <TrueBrain> in your opinion, it is the only possible option
19:45:55 <TrueBrain> in reality, there is a lot of grey area
19:46:03 <trooper> I used their sprites in my work
19:46:25 <TrueBrain> well, I would debate that as long as you can supply your source, you are fine ;)
19:46:30 <TrueBrain> (as long as you base it on their old work)
19:46:44 <trooper> I need to provide sources
19:47:02 <milek7> well, you probably can't use it
19:47:04 <andythenorth> you have a wide range of options
19:47:13 <andythenorth> you could remove their work from your work
19:47:15 <TrueBrain> milek7: I don't see why not, tbh
19:47:18 <milek7> GPL notice was mistake
19:47:19 <andythenorth> that is a remedy
19:47:29 <TrueBrain> milek7: their mistake; not trooper 's
19:47:33 <andythenorth> you could seek permissions from the original (third party) copyright holders
19:48:04 <milek7> TrueBrain: yep, but I don't think this shields against liability from original authors
19:48:05 <TrueBrain> "As you misunderstood licenses, would you mind if I still use your graphics for my own work"
19:48:07 <andythenorth> (totally unrelated to Bananas) - the CZ set have infringed on third party rights
19:48:19 <milek7> especially that he's now aware of invalid GPL notice
19:48:21 <TrueBrain> milek7: it becomes a bit thin; the issue below this issue is, what is "source"
19:48:36 <TrueBrain> milek7: but he acted in good faith up till now
19:49:19 <TrueBrain> see, in the end, we are not a court, and nobody is going to sue anyone for free OpenTTD gfx .. lets be real
19:49:26 <TrueBrain> so it is about community and working well together
19:49:33 <TrueBrain> shit happens, people make mistakes, bladiebla
19:49:39 <andythenorth> talking to people is the first step
19:49:40 <TrueBrain> so this is about politeness to eachother
19:49:45 <TrueBrain> they fucked up their license, sure
19:49:51 <TrueBrain> they will fix it, fine
19:50:03 <andythenorth> the CZ group may have some personal shame now as they have to talk to their third parties
19:50:03 <TrueBrain> can trooper still use their gfx? Up to them .. but if they are reasonable, they allow you to do fine
19:50:10 <SpComb> the author pretty clearly stated that they just picked GPL v2 at random without actually knowing what it means > I put it in the uploaded GRF cause I have to write there something- I really don't care about this things
19:50:11 <TrueBrain> and your source is just their binary + your modifications
19:50:31 <TrueBrain> SpComb: ironic, as they clearly do care :)
19:50:37 <trooper> my source is sprites from their binary
19:50:44 <TrueBrain> but that is the biggest takeaway: our website needs to change to not put GPL on top, and add a warning what it implies :)
19:51:10 <andythenorth> is it a default choice, or do they have to explicitly pick?
19:51:19 <TrueBrain> it is empty, you have to pick
19:51:25 <TrueBrain> first being GPL-licenses
19:51:32 <trooper> ok look if you change their license can I continue to use their sprites from old GRFs?
19:51:34 <TrueBrain> not sure what v1.5 does :P
19:51:45 <andythenorth> TrueBrain it's all fine 'choose a license' is default selected option
19:51:57 <TrueBrain> trooper: legally, a hard battle to fight either way; but explain to them why you did, and ask if they mind
19:52:11 <trooper> I don't want to bother them
19:52:16 <SpComb> how many GRFs are listed with " choose a license" as their license? :P
19:52:19 <TrueBrain> I think you already did ;) No offense meant :)
19:52:21 <andythenorth> trooper OpenTTD isn't where the decision can be made about that
19:52:38 <andythenorth> it's between CZ team, you, and the third parties whose copyright is infringed
19:52:55 <andythenorth> ideally have a better chat with them
19:53:20 <TrueBrain> be kind, don't be hostile, stay away from extremes, explain the situation, indicate the impact it would have on you if you cannot use them, and go from there
19:53:24 <andythenorth> use more smilies
19:53:31 <TrueBrain> smilies always help :)
19:53:32 <trooper> what I did wrong in the current chat?
19:53:50 <TrueBrain> and we all understand it is frustrating for both parties, so it is expected that initial replies are a bit cross
19:54:16 <nielsm> trooper: x/y problem. you want to translate, you attack the problem of getting the complete sources.
19:54:22 <dP> TrueBrain, I don't agree with your view on licenses but I like it since it means I can put into grf whatever I want as long as no one complains :p
19:54:29 <nielsm> yes it's a possible solution in some cases, in other cases it'
19:54:40 <nielsm> it's better to approach from a different angle
19:54:50 <TrueBrain> dP: that is literally how licenses work: you can do what ever the fuck you want until someone complains
19:55:00 <SpComb> but TBH shouldn't "No license" be a valid option? Then the uploader just needs to assert that they are the copyright holder / have permission from the copyright holder to upload and give bananas distribution rights, and then end users have... only their default rights? Which is maybe to use and not distribute?
19:55:15 <trooper> nielsm> I don't need complete sources I asked only NML file from the CZTR road set
19:55:30 <TrueBrain> SpComb: I agree that the current way licenses are implemented is weird, and roots back to the complains back in 2007
19:55:34 <trooper> I used NFO to get sprites
19:55:40 <nielsm> SpComb: not really, "no license" means nobody has right to use the content for anything
19:55:54 <nielsm> bananas is not useful for that kind of content
19:56:04 <TrueBrain> "No license" is unlawful, but asking for the license in the first place gives the wrong indication, I think
19:56:20 <andythenorth> there are some jurisdictions in which 'no license' is just not legal
19:56:28 <TrueBrain> as in: the whole of EU
19:56:29 <nielsm> the license at minimum should allow bananas to redistribute the unmodified work, and grant users the right to use the content within openttd and derived games
19:56:38 <SpComb> yeah, I'm not sure what your default rights to redistributed content without any license is. It would be dangerous for the ToS to take any stance on that
19:56:58 <nielsm> with no license the default rights are NOTHING
19:57:06 <andythenorth> it's definitional :)
19:57:14 <TrueBrain> the default "no license" could be defined as: only the other has a license, yes :)
19:57:18 <nielsm> if you don't have a license to a work then you are not entitled to do anything with it
19:57:18 <andythenorth> so we all agree on that at least? o_O
19:57:23 <nielsm> neither use, enjoy, or share
19:57:43 <andythenorth> I was a big fan of the WTFPL
19:57:46 <TrueBrain> and it starts with the unclarity of the word "license"
19:57:47 <andythenorth> just not safe for my kids
19:57:47 <SpComb> what kind of license does a book come with that allows me to read it?
19:58:05 <andythenorth> SpComb go in the library and photocopy it
19:58:39 <SpComb> stepping firmly into the realm of bad software copyright analogies :P
19:58:54 <andythenorth> software license is software license
19:59:03 <andythenorth> would be interesting
19:59:13 <milek7> actually, I think photocopying books in library is fine? depends on jurdistriction probably
19:59:28 <TrueBrain> milek7: it depends on your intent, in most countries :)
19:59:36 <andythenorth> yes, I just assume SpComb is in UK like me :P
20:02:05 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Hexus-One updated pull request #7607: Feature: Rail/Road/Tram/Canal-Planner (WIP) https://git.io/fjB7y
20:02:48 <TrueBrain> dP: and just to be clear on the license vs distribution: basically, our ToS adds, on top of your normal license, a specific-for-OpenTTD distribution license. The word license becomes icky here, as it means many things :P But even if you upload a custom license that says: NOBODY CAN TOUCH THIS, we can still bring it to your client, as you gave us a license for it :)
20:03:54 <milek7> trooper: keep in mind that you need to make them feel safe, that you won't download source and run away of it :P
20:03:56 <milek7> probably root of this problem is that content from trainsim community usually is heavily restricted ("all rights reserved, don't redistribute, use only in simulator X, don't modify, don't look at it wrong, contact me for permission to do anything with it")
20:04:31 <TrueBrain> dP: so if you make a ToS that gives you the rights to sell Windows and get Microsoft to sign it, yes, I am pretty sure you can sell Windows :)
20:04:33 <trooper> ya I'll take their sources and create a new game and sell it for 100000$$$$$
20:04:35 <milek7> they might fear that it leaks somewhere and they would lose access to their upstream
20:04:53 <dP> TrueBrain, ah, I think I get what you mean, since it's supposedly the author of grf who uploads it he can grant additional rights.
20:05:03 <TrueBrain> dP: that I tried to say, yes ;)
20:05:06 <TrueBrain> clearly I failed :) :D
20:05:22 <TrueBrain> this is why it is important to us that the original author uploads the content, and why we kick content that is not uploaded by the original author
20:05:39 <TrueBrain> you give us a distribution license for your content
20:05:48 <TrueBrain> (but ONLY distribution license, and even there a very specific one)
20:06:07 <TrueBrain> so license issues are still between who-ever violated them and the owner
20:06:25 <TrueBrain> otherwise BaNaNaS cannot operate; we cannot validate every license like this :)
20:06:47 <TrueBrain> (and every distribution platform works like this btw :P It is the reason YouTube can exist!)
20:09:31 * andythenorth making dinner oops
20:10:11 <TrueBrain> well, fun fact, I figured this out when we were asking to get a license for the original gfx of OpenTTD! We assumed Atari had the license, but they only had a distribution license :)
20:10:40 <TrueBrain> meaning they could not give us a license to distribute the original graphics :(
20:11:12 <TrueBrain> they have, however, given some companies the right to use them for specific events etc :)
20:12:30 <andythenorth> are the originals orphaned somewhere legally?
20:12:35 * andythenorth has always wondered about just buying them
20:13:49 <TrueBrain> trooper: word of the wise, you are still not reading what the author of the grf is asking you. You ask for something, but you don't listen to him. He is asking why you want to use it for. Start a dialog, which is more than asking for things. Explain what you want to do with it, what great thing you are building on top of their work, make them happy and proud to be part of that. It is more likely people want to help you if you position yourself
20:14:20 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: for over 15 years I don't know of any legal way to buy TT(D) except for ebay / .. in the original box
20:14:23 <andythenorth> milek7 they're not the original art assets though
20:15:03 <TrueBrain> there have been online places you can "buy" TT(D), which never has found to be legal
20:16:41 <trooper> TrueBrain> it is useless just a waste of the time
20:16:57 <trooper> ottd community is ruined
20:17:01 <milek7> 31X Ltd was formed by Chris Sawyer in 2010 to develop TRANSPORT TYCOON for the new generation of social and mobile platforms. [..] In 2010, Chris had the opportunity of reverting the MicroProse license and decided that this would be the perfect time to re-design and master his classic game for mobiles and tablets so that it could be enjoyed both by its huge number of fans and a new generation of players.
20:17:11 <andythenorth> again, you escalate from 0-100 in no time trooper
20:17:17 <andythenorth> please, try not to :)
20:17:39 <TrueBrain> it seems he keeps forgetting the words "to me" and "in my opinion" :D
20:17:56 <trooper> it is not me who released something under GPLv2 and refusing to provide sources
20:18:14 <andythenorth> trooper ever in your life have you made a mistake?
20:18:19 <andythenorth> if not, I send you gold medal
20:18:25 <milek7> don't assume bad faith, it was never GPL, just wrong annotation
20:18:26 <andythenorth> pls give me your address
20:18:56 <nielsm> trooper: who is violating whose license?
20:18:57 <TrueBrain> milek7: yeah, we also have a very strong letter from the lawyer of CS :D
20:19:14 <TrueBrain> also a nice letter of the music artist of TT(D)
20:20:04 <trooper> nielsm> I just don't want to steal their work
20:20:21 <trooper> so I'm asking for sources according to GPL
20:20:22 <andythenorth> also V4530000 made friends with the original graphics artist
20:20:30 <trooper> I can decompile NFO and use it
20:20:43 <trooper> I respect the other authors rights
20:20:47 <andythenorth> you can't ask for sources under the GPL as I explained
20:20:48 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: his letter was like: I wouldn't mind, but I don't hold the license, so sorrrrrryyyyyyyy
20:20:51 <andythenorth> the GPL does not apply
20:21:09 <andythenorth> but that is between you and CZ and their third parties
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20:21:29 <nielsm> trooper: try asking this question instead: I would like to help you by making translations of your project. Will you let me have access to your project so I can keep up with your work and keep the translations up-to-date?
20:21:45 <nielsm> this isn't about law or semantics, it's about human relations
20:22:42 <trooper> ok nm I'll decompile, wasting to much time on this bullshit
20:22:45 <andythenorth> trooper you're confused about what bananas is
20:23:47 <trooper> what all these licenses on banana mean?
20:23:54 <trooper> all of them are bullshit
20:23:55 <milek7> TrueBrain: >and every distribution platform works like this btw :P
20:23:59 <milek7> though that might change with that silly directive digital single market article 17, no?
20:24:13 <TrueBrain> milek7: you talk about that weird country called "USA"?
20:24:25 <dP> are there any working irc logs? i've no idea where i got disconnected %)
20:24:42 <TrueBrain> milek7: ah :) Don't know :) I know the US was trying to get that part kinda different :P
20:24:46 <andythenorth> trooper again 0-100
20:24:58 <andythenorth> you go from 'one grf has wrong license' to 'all of bananas is bullshit'
20:25:06 <TrueBrain> milek7: linky? Curious now :)
20:25:07 <andythenorth> you'll probably just get kicked
20:25:08 <dP> nielsm, yeah, I used that but it stops few hours ago
20:25:24 <nielsm> dP: it's fully updated for me
20:25:31 <milek7> non-commercial are excepted, but still, I don't like it
20:25:39 <TrueBrain> milek7: ah, that bull
20:25:45 <milek7> These conditions are an implementation of "effective and proportionate measures", as claimed by service providers, to "prevent the availability of specific [unlicensed] works identified by rightsholders", acting "expeditiously" to remove them, and demonstrating that "best efforts" have been made to prevent their future availability.
20:26:40 <trooper> Ok i'll take their sources recompile and put on bananas under my name including sprites
20:26:45 <TrueBrain> well, we do "best effort" too :)
20:26:56 <andythenorth> trooper then you'll probably get removed for copyright violation
20:27:20 <trooper> thy can't provide copyright
20:27:41 <andythenorth> CZ team has violated copyright
20:27:43 <nielsm> trooper: send a nicely worded question in private message to the people authoring the CZ set, it's useless asking anyone here about it
20:27:46 <andythenorth> you doing it too doesn't help the case
20:27:48 <andythenorth> just talk to them
20:28:00 <dP> nielsm, weird, to me it just stops randomly mid-page
20:28:13 <andythenorth> nobody at OpenTTD has any remedy except to advise you to talk
20:28:55 <TrueBrain> dP: but in all fairness, it stops midsenttence here too :)
20:29:06 <TrueBrain> hard reload did fix it :o
20:29:11 <TrueBrain> page was empty too for a few tries
20:29:12 <dP> TrueBrain, hm, ctrl-shift-r doesn't do it, but opening through tor does %)
20:30:19 <trooper> andythenorth> I tried, but now I don't want to talk to them, I'll use compiled NFO, I just want to see a reasonable reaction from community on GPL violation
20:30:32 <andythenorth> it's not a GPL violation
20:30:36 <andythenorth> it's a copyright violation
20:30:39 <nielsm> trooper: THEY are voilating THEIR OWN license?
20:30:48 <TrueBrain> lets play the game: guess the age of trooper ; I am voting for 12
20:30:52 <nielsm> they are the copyright holders
20:30:58 <nielsm> they can do whatever they want
20:31:03 <nielsm> they hold the original rights
20:31:16 <trooper> ok bye bye thank you for help
20:31:17 <andythenorth> they've licensed some stuff from 3rd parties
20:31:36 <TrueBrain> if he hadn't left, it wouldn't be long before he was forcefully left ..
20:32:01 <TrueBrain> well, that was not an english sentence, but what-ever
20:33:22 <dP> TrueBrain, ok, so to continue, doesn't bananas gives users rights to request source code by distributing gpl content? what allowes it to immediately violate them?
20:33:24 <andythenorth> most things sentences are English
20:33:40 <TrueBrain> dP: that license is between owner and user
20:33:56 <TrueBrain> it is not for the distribution platform to supply that stream of information
20:34:00 <TrueBrain> it is to mediate between btw
20:34:08 <andythenorth> two meanings of 'distribute' ?
20:34:14 <andythenorth> we are just a conduit in this case
20:34:20 <andythenorth> we haven't modified the work
20:34:33 <andythenorth> we aren't causing a modified version to be transmitted to others
20:34:44 <andythenorth> we are just the post office (to use terrible analogy)
20:34:52 <TrueBrain> dP: we do have due diligence, so that is why I asked if they are asked to upload a new version with the correct license, btw
20:35:41 <TrueBrain> what to me is interesting to figure out, is if anyone else but the copyright holder can complain about a license infringement
20:36:01 <dP> TrueBrain, hm, doesn't sound very convincing ... what's the license between user and bananas then?
20:36:18 <TrueBrain> as far as I am aware, none :P
20:36:25 <andythenorth> dP try it this way
20:36:33 <andythenorth> how does bananas make us an author?
20:36:39 <TrueBrain> do you sign a license anywhere when you download content? :)
20:37:11 <andythenorth> GPL is very simple
20:37:17 * andythenorth spent a lot of time on it :P
20:37:24 <TrueBrain> owh boy, here it comes :)
20:37:42 <dP> TrueBrain, well, there is tos usually
20:37:45 <andythenorth> I had such fun with it :P
20:37:51 <dP> TrueBrain, even on bananas, there is just not a word about users xD
20:38:01 <TrueBrain> there is no user ToS, no
20:38:32 <TrueBrain> but this is mainly the point: BaNaNaS has no legal right in this whole license story
20:38:47 <TrueBrain> we pick the binary as is, and give it to someone else, as a middleman
20:38:51 <andythenorth> bananas is not an author
20:39:00 <andythenorth> GPL is about author rights
20:39:04 <TrueBrain> again, we have to make sure we are doing "best effort" to prevent illegal crap
20:39:13 <TrueBrain> so if someone uploads a movie, we have to take actions, of course
20:39:22 <TrueBrain> we have to listen to DMCA requests, and all that
20:40:16 <nielsm> as I understand it, bananas distributes content to end-users on behalf of the uploaders, it's the uploader that must have the right to grant a license to download and use the content to the end-user
20:40:24 <TrueBrain> which brings to two interesting points: 1) can a copyright owner violate his own license? (I think he cannot) 2) even if he would, do we need to take action on it before the owner asks us?
20:41:06 <TrueBrain> but why I agree'd with SpComb earlier that our license question is a weird one, as most of these license we mention are more about how to deal with contribution and attribution
20:41:07 <Borg> b_jonas: then production can be up to 2048 afair
20:41:14 <TrueBrain> which, from our platform point of view, is a weird question
20:41:26 <TrueBrain> it is more for the end-user that wants to modify it, redistribute it, etc
20:41:47 <TrueBrain> so possibly we are asking the question about "license" in the wrong light
20:42:00 <Wolf01> Wtf still talking about licenses?
20:42:04 <TrueBrain> we don't ask it for BaNaNaS, as a distribution platform, but to help others that want to do anything with it
20:42:14 <TrueBrain> Wolf01: yeah, but it got a bit mature conversation; at least, I think so :)
20:44:23 <andythenorth> one way to think about it, 'GPL' or other license fact is metadata for a bananas content
20:44:39 <andythenorth> it's not the license we are applying to it
20:44:54 <andythenorth> it's the license the author has told us they are using
20:45:11 <TrueBrain> I guess dP's point is, how far are we responsible that it should be correct
20:45:18 <TrueBrain> till what extend are we a partner in that
20:45:33 <andythenorth> depends on jurisdiction and all that bollocks
20:45:47 <TrueBrain> there is also the common-sense factor there
20:45:53 <TrueBrain> the Dutch approach: eerlijk en billijk
20:46:43 <TrueBrain> but given this situation: they just made an honest mistake; as long as the copyright owner doesn't send us a request to takedown, I don't see an ethical reason we should take action (ethical being the important word here); of course I would love to know if any of you disagree on that :)
20:47:02 <andythenorth> FWIW I would have taken the CZ set down as a copyright violation, they've self-evidenced that they have done it wrong. But I'd probably regret it.
20:47:42 <TrueBrain> what is the benefit of that course of action?
20:47:43 <Wolf01> I agree, it's the author problem to check if his stuff is used elsewhere, not the platform system/owners
20:48:00 <dP> tbh, I'm just curious how it works, not rly trying to make any point xD
20:48:24 <TrueBrain> dP: yeah, so am I :) Just making sure we are on the same page here :D
20:48:40 <andythenorth> TrueBrain I have nothing. It just seems 'correct', but also too hasty.
20:48:56 <andythenorth> I have no shame about being wrong :P
20:49:00 <TrueBrain> dP: I guess the fact you see laws being changed around this, showing it is not an easy answer
20:49:23 <TrueBrain> but the reason distribution platforms can exist atm, is that they have very little liability
20:50:00 <TrueBrain> Do I get a complain? Does it "sound" correct? Pull the content. If not, send a request for proof. Done
20:51:09 <andythenorth> oh that's why I would have pulled it, ToS violation
20:51:17 <andythenorth> but it isn't quite, on the current wording
20:51:48 <andythenorth> "You will only upload content of which you are (one of) the original author(s)." is nicely broad :)
20:52:02 <TrueBrain> saved us in the early days
20:52:13 <TrueBrain> a handful of authors REALLY did not like BaNaNaS
20:52:17 <TrueBrain> "omg, people can download my content", vibe
20:52:27 <TrueBrain> or, what I suspect: "omg, I am not getting ad revenue" :D
20:52:38 <TrueBrain> did I say that out loud? Hmm .. maybe I shouldn't have :P
20:52:46 <Wolf01> I wonder who they were... (no I don't, I know who they were)
20:52:53 <andythenorth> now you are saying your thoughts TrueBrain
20:52:59 <andythenorth> where does this lead us?
20:54:02 <milek7> from what I have seen, 'omg, people can download my content' mindset is still big in trainsim communities
20:54:11 <Wolf01> Btw, break, did anybody purchase stardock utilities on steam? Do they need steam active to run or they are just distributed and kept updated with steam?
20:54:34 <TrueBrain> milek7: sounds horrible
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20:55:14 <Wolf01> I was totally happy when I found some people downloaded my first scenario on Trainz a new era
20:55:55 <TrueBrain> one of the things I dislike about certain Minecraft plugins .. you HAVE to download them from their site, FULL of ads
20:56:10 <TrueBrain> which reminds me .. back to kappa mode
20:57:47 <dP> I get minecraft but ads in openttd, seriosly? xD
20:58:10 <dP> as much as I want to somehow monetize my work around openttd I realize my best shot is probably donations xD
20:58:38 <TrueBrain> still considering adding cloud save for a fee :P
20:59:21 <nielsm> let authors add a "support the author" URL to their bananas uploads
20:59:32 <nielsm> which could link to patreon or whatever
20:59:39 <TrueBrain> so many things BaNaNaS could use
20:59:54 <TrueBrain> but, the code is all there now, for anyone to pickup :)
21:00:03 <TrueBrain> the database is schemeless, so no issue upgrading!
21:01:06 <TrueBrain> typing .. hard .. schemaless
21:01:33 <dP> TrueBrain, oh, what db does it use?
21:02:05 <andythenorth> sometimes I wish I could inject a little perspective, but I am not king, not even for a day
21:02:27 <andythenorth> and a bit of trainsim license drama seems like blah blah
21:03:55 <TrueBrain> how sweet to crosspost that of that dude :)
21:04:02 <TrueBrain> otherwise: how horrible
21:05:03 <andythenorth> kept me awake the other night after I read it
21:05:48 <andythenorth> already too many friends gone that way, and I'm only a bit over 40
21:05:59 * andythenorth must to play Tanks
21:06:17 <TrueBrain> and remind me not to be friends with you :P :P :P (sorry, I just had to :D)
21:07:08 <andythenorth> TrueBrains are gonna TrueBrain
21:07:22 <TrueBrain> nah, even I noticed it was in poor taste :(
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21:21:53 <nielsm> TrueBrain: looks like I'll have to have my bananas account migrated too
21:24:11 <frosch123> nielsm: is your username obvious?
21:26:13 <nielsm> I can't quite figure out how to get the user id to put in the authors file
21:26:20 <supermop_Home> andythenorth hard to know where to start
21:26:45 <supermop_Home> i read the post this morning
21:26:55 <supermop_Home> but then i had to do work...
21:27:38 <andythenorth> probably won't work for me :) I have to play with 'full animation' off
21:27:55 <andythenorth> no palette cycles
21:29:33 <frosch123> it creates a threadpool to make a single request, it must be good :)
21:31:45 <dP> I never really understood the point of conveyor belts in openttd, especially fake ones
21:31:56 <supermop_Home> what about real ones?
21:32:39 <frosch123> andythenorth: will you now do wetroads to ship logs downstream?
21:32:45 <dP> supermop_Home, depends, I can imagine few usecases
21:33:28 <dP> well, I guess they look cool so eyecandy is always a usecase xD
21:33:48 <andythenorth> frosch123 I might dream of it
21:34:11 <supermop_Home> frosch123 I've been meaning to make a log flume for ages
21:34:12 <andythenorth> and I probably have lots of newgrf spec admin I never finished :|
21:34:27 <andythenorth> like when we release nml 0.5.3 I have to fix the wiki back to how it was
21:34:35 <andythenorth> when are we releasing 0.5.3?
21:34:38 <andythenorth> the user is angry
21:34:53 <andythenorth> dP do you never use PIPE.grf?
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21:41:04 <dP> andythenorth, no, I have it downloaded apparently but no idea how it even works
21:42:23 <andythenorth> it's weird but good
21:44:17 <dP> well, my pump doesn't even want to leave the depot
21:44:25 <dP> and it is very weird to even write that xD
21:44:35 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: WHERE ARE YOUR PRETTY LINKS?!
21:44:44 <andythenorth> TrueBrain yair yair
21:44:55 <andythenorth> TBH I am just amazed I can upload to S3 so easily
21:45:01 <andythenorth> just drop files in the browser window
21:45:07 <TrueBrain> you amaze me every day
21:45:50 <supermop_Home> pipe could benefit from custom depot and tunnel sprites
21:46:50 <milek7> crashing fluids, then? :P
21:47:08 <supermop_Home> but would be nice if reimplemented in nrt
21:48:26 <andythenorth> it needs done in NRT
21:48:34 * andythenorth might do it in Road Hog
21:48:44 <andythenorth> but I don't know how to animate or draw it :P
21:50:20 <dP> is there any grf that implements clouds and birds as aircrafts?
21:50:27 <dP> that I could actually use xD
21:50:58 <nielsm> heliports skinned as large trees that breed birds?
21:51:08 <andythenorth> there's an object with seagulls :P
21:51:11 <dP> nielsm, yes, and mountains for cloudss
21:51:33 <nielsm> but really, GS-controlled disaster vehicles
21:51:45 <nielsm> which could also not cause disaster but just delight
21:53:03 <dP> nielsm, but disasters are just an idea when aircrafts can be done already :p
23:02:46 <b_jonas> I should now have a triple mainline going all the way to the largest oil refinery (which now produces 1500 tons per month), branching also to a double line to the city that takes all my goods, plus 3+2+4 oil refineries
23:03:32 <b_jonas> plus an all-vactrain passenger line among seven cities
23:04:18 <b_jonas> at least I hope it's triple all the way, I still have to look a bit more to find errors
23:13:14 <supermop_Home> i find that triple lines barely give you enough of a capacity increase over a regular doubled line without a lot of timetabling or luck
23:15:14 <supermop_Home> 3 tracks doesn't really give 1.5x the capacity of two tracks, but takes 1.5 times the space. 4 tracks takes twice the space but gives pretty much twice the capacity
23:17:48 <Eddi|zuHause> i was thinking he meant 3 lines in each direction
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23:20:59 <supermop_Home> well that certainly is a lot
23:21:38 <Borg> yeah... a lot too lot ;)
23:21:57 <Borg> if I have huge capacity hub.. I spread it.... try to handle 10-12k goods production from 2x factory..
23:22:11 <Borg> single station? nada... you need to split it...
23:23:01 <Borg> but :) I bet its fun to maintain such tracks...
23:23:20 <Borg> I do a lot of getto junctions. so... triple tracks would be too much to me..
23:25:40 <b_jonas> oopsie, I had a train stuck in an inaccessible depots
23:26:01 <b_jonas> yes, 3 in each directions
23:26:13 <b_jonas> the hub is a roro station that I built on the weekend
23:26:33 <b_jonas> and the mainline is quite long which means junctions don't come together too much
23:26:55 <b_jonas> and the oil rigs are grouped, except for that one huge one, so the trains serve multiple smaller ones together
23:27:12 <Borg> oh.. medium.. I usualy play 256x256 when I play alone..
23:27:28 <Borg> 128x128 too smalish ;) but I might try this one... one day
23:27:38 <b_jonas> the refinery is on the north, the large oil station is in the east
23:28:33 <b_jonas> the distance between the two is approximately 430
23:39:24 <supermop_Home> this needs yellow on it
23:43:34 <Speeder_> what cargos I can't change IDs again?
23:43:44 <Speeder_> I remember if you change IDs of some cargos the game breaks down
23:47:01 <LordAro> TrueBrain: i always assuming i'm talking to a load of 12 year olds
23:47:08 <LordAro> seems i missed quite the fun
23:59:59 <dP> crazy idea of the day: make a fully automated livestream that switches between servers and comments what's happening there with a synthesized voice
continue to next day ⏵
