IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2020-07-01
⏴ go to previous day
00:12:01 <CornsMcGowan[m]> i forgot: whats the length of diagonal rail vs orthogonal rails?
00:12:52 <CornsMcGowan[m]> i remember somewhere mentioning the subunit counts for them being not quite 1:sqrt(2)
00:15:24 <dP> CornsMcGowan[m], 128 vs 196 iirc
00:19:44 <dP> CornsMcGowan[m], just checked, in subunits it's 192 for diagonal piece and 256 for orthogonal
00:20:20 <CornsMcGowan[m]> i initially thought 192 orthogonal and 128 diagonal
00:22:35 <dP> CornsMcGowan[m], nah, that was from profit calculator, it uses different units
00:23:10 <CornsMcGowan[m]> cm profit calc is a blessing
00:30:51 <b_jonas> this is strange, it's as if control-clicking the location button of a train window to follow the train on the main view doesn't work when I'm zoomed out to 50%. it shows the location of the train once but doesn't keep following.
00:33:58 <dP> CornsMcGowan[m], or mb it is 128 and 192, it's confusing as fuck in openttd code
00:34:13 <dP> CornsMcGowan[m], profit calc uses const tile_len = this.is_diagonal ? 128 : 192;
00:34:24 <dP> CornsMcGowan[m], I assume I understood why when I wrote that xD
00:37:39 <CornsMcGowan[m]> dP: hecc that is indeed confusing
00:40:37 <dP> like wtf, there is UpdateSpeed that returns distance and GetAdvanceDistance that returns speed
01:32:32 <Eddi|zuHause> well, obviously GetAdvanceDistance would get the Distance that should be Advanced...
01:34:18 <Eddi|zuHause> given a time unit of 1 tick, that conversion can be a noop
01:35:16 <Eddi|zuHause> (although it's probably more like 1/n tick, as the function will get called n times per tick)
01:35:30 <Eddi|zuHause> (where n varies by vehicle type)
01:37:19 <dP> Eddi|zuHause, actually I was wrong, it returns logical track length
01:37:51 <dP> Eddi|zuHause, so it is distance but not advance
01:38:17 <dP> Eddi|zuHause, but yeah, with 1 tick time frame speed is distance and distance is speed %)
01:41:22 <Eddi|zuHause> dP: there's a field of physics where they just set the speed of light (and some other constants) to 1 and do away with all the units, then E=m and some other simplifications happen
01:47:04 <dP> I finally remembered why it was 128:192, because 1 diagonal piece is 8 subtile steps, so it's 256 * 8 : 192 * 16
02:09:08 *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd
02:09:08 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir
03:56:27 <supermop_Home> now the helicopter is just hovering almost immediately above my apartment
03:56:45 <supermop_Home> for the past 20 minutes
03:59:18 <supermop_Home> presumably due to the budget vote this evening i'd guess
05:26:14 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/JJJR5
07:29:08 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd
07:41:43 *** Smedles has joined #openttd
07:47:03 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
08:03:15 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd
08:27:28 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/JJJaI
08:28:48 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/JJJaq
08:37:01 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/JJJar
08:54:39 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/JJJVI
09:00:51 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/JJJVB
09:01:39 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/JJJVz
09:02:23 <andythenorth> I read the logs for grf.farm
09:02:36 <andythenorth> but not in a way that has an exemption
09:02:40 <andythenorth> so I broke the law
09:03:14 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/JJJVw
09:03:40 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/JJJVo
09:05:03 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/JJJVX
09:06:31 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/JJJVy
09:06:45 <LordAro> andythenorth: the horror.
09:10:52 <andythenorth> it was probably your device too
09:12:03 <andythenorth> 'mostly I have been reading EU legal documents'
09:12:51 <andythenorth> maybe I should put a consent banner on grf.farm
09:12:55 <andythenorth> but it must not be intrusive
09:13:03 <andythenorth> and it must be fully informative, but not confusing
09:13:13 <andythenorth> and I can't block access to the service if consent is withheld
09:13:16 <nielsm> are you putting tracking cookies?
09:13:22 <andythenorth> no no, I just read the S3 logs
09:13:36 <andythenorth> but that stores the OS and user agent
09:13:40 <andythenorth> and those are your property
09:13:57 <andythenorth> so it's illegal to read them unless it's for one of 2 exempted causes
09:14:16 <andythenorth> 'beware of the leopard' is all I have
09:18:13 *** virtualrandomnumber has joined #openttd
09:20:14 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC
09:20:28 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd
09:22:51 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC
09:23:05 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd
09:30:14 <andythenorth> hmm vehicle engine plants are quite boring buildings
09:30:19 * andythenorth needs to draw for FIRS
09:36:25 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/JJJwb
10:19:48 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/JJJKI
10:45:57 <CornsMcGowan[m]> what IDE do you all use for OpenTTD dev?
10:47:33 <CornsMcGowan[m]> i used to use VS19 enterprise cause my university gives student licenses out, but i'm trying to get into the habit of using VSCode instead
10:48:43 <LordAro> use whatever you feel comfortable with
10:49:50 <LordAro> because i feel comfortable using it :p
10:51:22 <CornsMcGowan[m]> HAHA thats understandable
11:16:00 *** arikover has joined #openttd
11:18:55 <nielsm> vs2019 community is what I use
11:24:58 *** gelignite has joined #openttd
12:33:08 <Samu> what was the value in VCPKG_TARGET_TRIPLET x64-windows
13:09:44 <Samu> how do I ignore work project files
13:11:48 <Samu> and also 'CMakeSettings.json'
13:12:39 <Samu> when i add to ignore, it goes to .gitignore and it then becomes another changed file
13:18:50 <LordAro> Samu: there's an open PR
13:19:03 <LordAro> just ignore them for now
14:33:01 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] danchr updated pull request #8189: Update: generate Mac bundle on install rather than packaging https://git.io/Jf12c
14:34:29 <andythenorth> hmm mac cmake build still fails for me
14:34:46 <andythenorth> the cause appears to be that brew ports tree does some inappropriate things with headers
14:34:53 <andythenorth> but I tried the fix and it didn't work so far
14:34:59 * andythenorth 1st world problems
14:42:39 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] danchr updated pull request #8189: Update: generate Mac bundle on install rather than packaging https://git.io/Jf12c
14:43:57 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] danchr commented on pull request #8189: Update: generate Mac bundle on install rather than packaging https://git.io/JJJH3
15:28:06 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd
15:38:41 *** gelignite has joined #openttd
15:49:59 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
17:11:06 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd
17:30:16 *** Speeder_ has joined #openttd
17:42:48 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: at least you have your own domain :P
18:00:57 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/DorpsGek] LordAro approved pull request #24: Scheduled monthly dependency update for June https://git.io/JJJhg
18:01:19 <LordAro> TrueBrain: quick, before pyup-bot notices and makes a new PR :p
18:02:36 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/DorpsGek] TrueBrain merged pull request #24: Scheduled monthly dependency update for June https://git.io/Jfi3v
18:03:27 <LordAro> could enable it on a few other repos, perhaps?
18:03:37 <TrueBrain> yeah, but PyUp is a bit of shit
18:03:58 <TrueBrain> they keep spamming me, and be all "I NEED ATTENTION I AM SAD"
18:04:16 <TrueBrain> so I wanted to migrate to dependabot, but lets see if they added 1 PR for all deps now
18:05:31 <LordAro> and nml doesn't even have a requirements file, it's embedded in setup.py
18:05:52 <TrueBrain> the fact that things work, don't make them less wrong
18:06:06 <TrueBrain> I can wear a trashbag as tshirt
18:06:17 <LordAro> means you can install things easily
18:06:20 <TrueBrain> setup.py should never ever pin an exact version :)
18:06:33 <TrueBrain> so it isn't embedding requirements.txt :)
18:06:42 <TrueBrain> so you are wrong, and mixing up 2 things :P :P
18:06:45 <LordAro> ok, it's embedding requirements.base
18:06:57 <LordAro> which is an invention of yours, afaik
18:07:00 <TrueBrain> requirements.base is my own hack, because I am too lazy to make a setup.py :P
18:07:28 <TrueBrain> well, you don't need to do setup.py anymore these days ..
18:07:28 *** Eddi|zuHause has joined #openttd
18:09:59 <TrueBrain> github dependabot still doesn't allow a single PR per month, it seems
18:10:06 <TrueBrain> possibly that is an indication what I want is weird :P
18:12:33 <TrueBrain> even their own repo looks ugly because of it; it is useful, as you can see if a single dependency fails, instead of "one of these"
18:12:37 <TrueBrain> but ugh .. it gives a lot of noise
18:14:08 <Eddi|zuHause> so, i have this problem, where if i update to a kernel newer than 5.5 the network card is not recognized
18:14:19 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd
18:16:05 <TrueBrain> seems to be not coming any time soon, "grouping" in dependabot .. bah :P
18:16:48 <TrueBrain> so guess I should enable PyUp on the other repos for now ..
18:16:57 <TrueBrain> I have some more free time in a month or so
18:17:19 <TrueBrain> and I will fix setup.py's too in that case :)
18:17:31 <TrueBrain> LordAro: that btw still leaves nml should get a "requirements.txt" with known good dependencies :)
18:33:12 *** Progman has joined #openttd
18:39:42 *** y2kboy23 has joined #openttd
19:17:31 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd
19:20:57 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd
19:23:15 <CornsMcGowan[m]> hello, can somebody walk me through compiling openttd (jgrpp) on linux ubuntu?
19:26:18 <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh wow i dont even have git installed on this HAHA
19:27:33 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
19:41:50 <andythenorth> so should we use grf.farm for all grfs?
19:42:16 <andythenorth> [asking for a friend]
19:45:50 <DorpsGek_III> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
19:51:49 <FLHerne> CornsMcGowan[m]: Get the source, cd path/to/src && ./configure && make -j
19:52:00 <FLHerne> Unless JGR has the cmake patch already
19:54:18 <CornsMcGowan[m]> i went the ./configure make route
19:54:24 <FLHerne> (his git head does, but not the latest release)
19:54:30 <CornsMcGowan[m]> whats the -j argument
19:54:42 <CornsMcGowan[m]> is that same as --jobs
19:55:11 <FLHerne> For current openttd or jgr git, you want `mkdir build && cd build && cmake .. && make -j` or so
19:57:10 <FLHerne> Lets `make` run multiple processes in parallel, which unless your computer is ancient will be a lot quicker
19:59:22 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/DorpsGek] pyup-bot opened pull request #25: Scheduled monthly dependency update for July https://git.io/JJUJs
20:04:39 *** Gustavo6046 has joined #openttd
20:08:01 <CornsMcGowan[m]> ah sweet ty :)
20:12:17 <andythenorth> hmm tinfoil time
20:12:19 <frosch123> andythenorth: regular people should just just github bundles
20:12:32 <andythenorth> maybe george should do that
20:12:33 <frosch123> your speciality is hosting docs
20:12:35 <frosch123> which noone else has
20:12:46 <andythenorth> regular people should just use bananas :P
20:13:08 <frosch123> hmm, in that case... possibly george thinks you also run a compile farm
20:13:52 <andythenorth> je n'ai pas un compile farm
20:13:56 <andythenorth> name might be misleading
20:16:35 <andythenorth> ceci n'est pas une ferme
20:16:48 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/DorpsGek] LordAro approved pull request #25: Scheduled monthly dependency update for July https://git.io/JJUJj
20:18:26 <andythenorth> how do I safely give it creds?
20:19:19 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/DorpsGek] TrueBrain merged pull request #25: Scheduled monthly dependency update for July https://git.io/JJUJs
20:21:30 <TrueBrain> Make IAM user with limited rights and generate an API key. Have auto keyrotate activated and monitor the account for unusual activity :p
20:22:26 <frosch123> andythenorth: oh, wow... i did not make the relation to .farm either
21:15:15 <andythenorth> nielsm dunno, I am a bit paranoid about creds
21:15:22 <andythenorth> should I be typing them in every time I run it?
21:16:21 *** y2kboy23 has joined #openttd
21:17:34 *** b_jonas has joined #openttd
21:20:53 <nielsm> andythenorth: as TB suggests, maybe make a separate (limited permissions) account the job can run under, so if anyone does snatch the creds their abilities would be insufficient to do real damage
21:24:08 <Wolf01> Does that need to be suggested?
21:24:26 <nielsm> sometimes the obvious is overlooked
21:25:17 <nielsm> if you're launching the job interactively from macos, maybe it's possible to somehow store the creds in Keychain
21:26:14 <Wolf01> We are even creating a lot of google accounts to handle APIs for different things instead of just creating different projects
21:28:07 <andythenorth> there's a convention in AWS to provision limited creds
21:28:15 <andythenorth> it's this end I worry about
21:28:29 <andythenorth> I am basically taking untrusted 3rd party contributions via github
21:28:43 <andythenorth> and then potentially letting them publish to s3
21:28:53 <andythenorth> it's not a very interesting attack though :P
21:29:14 <TrueBrain> How do you think docs and website end up on AWS?
21:29:23 <andythenorth> I have general paranoia about creds
21:29:52 <andythenorth> tinfoil to the max
21:30:23 <TrueBrain> well, that can be a good thing, if it doesn't prevent you from living your life ;)
21:30:40 <TrueBrain> but OpenTTD uses a very strictly limited IAM account with API creds as a GitHub secret to publish the website
21:30:47 <TrueBrain> if the creds leak ... they can upload another website
21:31:00 <Wolf01> <TB> A magic hamster? <- this wasted me XD
21:31:07 <TrueBrain> bad? sure. a catastrophic event? Not really.
21:33:58 <TrueBrain> you are welcome Wolf01 :)
21:35:26 <Wolf01> andythenorth: purchased the crocodile... shipping from 20th august
21:41:04 <andythenorth> I do spend an insane amount of my day entering passwords
21:41:10 <andythenorth> it really makes work harder
21:41:28 <Wolf01> Me too, and I usually interchange them
21:41:56 <TrueBrain> you do know we have password managers, right?
21:42:02 <andythenorth> I won't use any autofill from my password manager because exploits have been demonstrated against them
21:42:13 <andythenorth> and the password manager requires a password
21:42:50 <Wolf01> And first I need to login on windows to use the password manager
21:43:20 <Wolf01> But usually I have it on my phone because my boss doesn't want us to use it
21:43:21 <andythenorth> I have touch ID unlock on some password managers, but that needs a password every n hours
21:43:34 <TrueBrain> I only need to know 3 passwords during my day
21:43:38 <TrueBrain> I love simplicity in life
21:44:31 <TrueBrain> people who use auto-type, need to have the Firefox / Chrome plugin installed, that adds the URL to the browser title
21:44:41 <TrueBrain> and enable auto-type based on active-window-title
21:44:48 <TrueBrain> avoids all the ... accidental autofills :)
21:45:15 <Wolf01> I need to know 3 passwords too, but I keep filling the wrong one
21:46:04 <TrueBrain> the world's real problem
21:49:33 <Wolf01> It's nice how I remember better my own passwords which I don't even need to fill every time as I have autologin or saved in browser, but the ones I fill in constantly at work are the most difficult to get right
21:50:03 <TrueBrain> brrr, save in browser
21:50:07 <TrueBrain> please don't use that :(
21:50:14 <TrueBrain> you ever notice you do not need a password to "unlock" them?
21:50:41 <Wolf01> Yes, but it's my own pc at home
21:51:01 <TrueBrain> just install a password manager :P
21:51:08 <TrueBrain> BitWarden, 1Password, ..
21:52:05 <Wolf01> I use KeePass, but only to get the passwords I don't want to save
21:53:31 <TrueBrain> use a cloud-based solution, and your world becomes a lot easier :)
21:53:44 <TrueBrain> All my passwords are in 1Password, I never have to remember any, because fingerprint :P
21:54:52 <Wolf01> I just remember them... all 143
21:55:36 <TrueBrain> if you can remember 143 passwords, they are not different enough :P
21:55:43 <TrueBrain> or you have the wrong job :P
21:56:12 <Wolf01> Seriously, and no, they aren't different enough, not the same one but I can calculate them :P
21:56:53 <TrueBrain> you should visit one of my trainingdays .. you will have a different opinion afterwards :D
21:57:04 <TrueBrain> I even managed to get HR person to leave the room to change their passwords (with KeePass)
21:58:41 <TrueBrain> I train companies on cybersecurity, one of these is a simple session where we introduce all office people to what it is about
21:58:45 <frosch123> TrueBrain: during the coffee break?
21:58:51 <TrueBrain> and we have some passwords we name, which most likely is one of their passwords
21:58:53 <TrueBrain> we always hit a few
21:58:58 <TrueBrain> which still amazes me till this day
21:59:14 <TrueBrain> just the simple things like: <companyname>01!
21:59:21 <TrueBrain> and you just see the reaction on people's face
22:00:00 <frosch123> good, i am safe, i use <companyname>02
22:00:21 <Wolf01> I must not continue with this argument or you'll kill me, because in my company it's just fine if we don't have the passwords written on a sticky note on the monitor
22:00:51 <frosch123> my IT shows a video from some show, where they interview people on the street abuot their passwords
22:01:43 <frosch123> like: what is your password? - the name of by pet. - oh, you have a pet? what it's name? - peter
22:01:50 <TrueBrain> that I use in trainings too frosch123 :)
22:02:04 <TrueBrain> Wolf01: yeah ... hire us for a single session; that will change :P
22:02:29 <b_jonas> frosch123: that sort of interview has a strong selection effect, because the sort of people who are sensible about their password won't tell about them to random people interviewing them in the street
22:02:37 <b_jonas> so it's like even worse than ordinary interviews
22:03:13 <TrueBrain> b_jonas: you take it too seriously ;)
22:03:23 <Wolf01> Aahha, I only use pseudo-random sequences of chars, numbers, symbols, you won't get one so easy, but I can get it knowing my algorythm :P
22:03:26 <frosch123> TrueBrain: so it was the same :)
22:04:00 <TrueBrain> Wolf01: the other VERY common one we see: when I crack your password, I can tell how many months you work at your company
22:04:04 <TrueBrain> as it is <base>01 for the first reset
22:04:06 <TrueBrain> <base>02 for the second
22:04:12 <TrueBrain> like .. really stupid
22:04:20 <milek7> passwords resets are stupid
22:04:29 <TrueBrain> what you need to tell people .. I find your password of 2 years ago .. it is <base>03
22:04:32 <TrueBrain> we are 4 resets later
22:04:37 <TrueBrain> so ...... can I guess your password now?
22:04:58 <TrueBrain> password resets are not bad; people not understanding why we use passwords are the issue
22:05:03 <TrueBrain> but the solution is simple: enable MFA
22:05:07 <Wolf01> What if I go reverse... ohh shit XD
22:06:03 <milek7> Wolf01: well, if somebody created several honeypot sites for you to register
22:06:21 <milek7> maybe they could reverse-engineer your algorithm :P
22:06:38 <andythenorth> I am imagining TB training my staff
22:06:41 <andythenorth> that could be quite lolz
22:07:05 <TrueBrain> the worst realisation of this year: people use password managers .. by adding an entry, and come up with their own password. It was such a facepalm moment, that we (IT) forgot to train our users HOW to use password managers
22:08:11 <frosch123> sometimes sites do not accept random hashes of dozens of chars, but want special chars
22:08:21 <andythenorth> those sites are annoying
22:08:23 <frosch123> then i usually isnert them manually somewhere in the hash
22:08:31 <TrueBrain> some sites still have a "max 16 chars" limit
22:08:34 <frosch123> it's easier than clicking all those checkboxes
22:08:46 <andythenorth> some shopping site, if it's a commodity thing, I just go to a different site when the password rules are dumb
22:08:52 <TrueBrain> which makes you wonder who developed it .. and if he understands hashing ...
22:09:28 <frosch123> TrueBrain: oh, the admin in 2009 send a mail: company policy requires >= 8 chars, our old sunos boxes support <= 8 chars. so you know what that means
22:09:28 <dP> I liked to use algorithm to generate passwords until I realised it depends on a keyboard layout which I change constantly xD
22:09:36 <dP> now I have a separete layout for passwords xD
22:11:20 <TrueBrain> frosch123: yeah, a known issue, sadly ..
22:12:50 <milek7> due to GDPR probably, recently there's trend for encrypting zip mail attachments
22:13:29 <TrueBrain> what ... has GDPR have to do with that?
22:14:02 <andythenorth> I broke the law this morning
22:14:11 <frosch123> i am always amazed when people send two mails, one with the zip, and a second with the plain password
22:14:12 <milek7> probably they think to protect data more
22:14:14 <andythenorth> I read the AWS S3 logs for my new site
22:14:19 <frosch123> how does that help?
22:14:34 <andythenorth> and the purpose wasn't covered by the exemptions, and I don't have consent
22:14:37 <milek7> one issue is.. guess how long it takes to bruteforce 8 digit password in pkzip encryption?
22:14:57 <andythenorth> so I violated PECR
22:15:02 <TrueBrain> frosch123: yeah .... I know right :(
22:15:08 <frosch123> andythenorth: i guess, reading them is fine. it only matters if you acutally use them
22:15:19 <andythenorth> nope, reading is accessing
22:15:32 <andythenorth> I read them to guess who had been looking at the site
22:15:39 <andythenorth> that purpose isn't allowed
22:15:50 <TrueBrain> so you had bad intent!
22:15:53 <frosch123> how good are your guesses?
22:16:11 <andythenorth> I can't actually profile anyone with the data
22:16:14 <andythenorth> but still illegal
22:16:20 <andythenorth> completely allowed under GDPR though
22:16:24 <frosch123> you can run geoip lookup
22:16:26 <TrueBrain> just say you wanted to check no weird URLs were opened
22:16:46 <frosch123> though, since i have a new isp, i actually don't know where it locates me now
22:16:51 <frosch123> previous one was like 200 km off
22:17:02 <TrueBrain> as long as it is the right country :P
22:17:15 <dP> I don't even remember which country is my ip located in xD
22:17:26 <andythenorth> IP lookup is different
22:17:44 <frosch123> oh, it's equally far away
22:18:09 <frosch123> and an absolute village i never heard about
22:18:11 <andythenorth> 'everything is awesome'
22:18:14 <TrueBrain> PECR is uk only, right?
22:18:25 <andythenorth> it's the UK implementation of the 2002 ePrivacy Directive
22:18:30 <andythenorth> you probably have your own version
22:18:30 <TrueBrain> yeah, so nobody cares
22:18:36 <TrueBrain> HE WALKED RIGHT INTO THATONE :)
22:18:48 <TrueBrain> we have AVG, which is GDPR, but translated :P
22:18:58 <andythenorth> 2002 version is a Directive not a Regulation
22:19:13 <andythenorth> so the requirement for member nations to translate to local law is different
22:19:19 <andythenorth> Regulation is more stringent / forceful
22:19:29 <andythenorth> yes, even after Brexit, EU law still reks my life
22:19:48 <TrueBrain> I am so happy so many people already say: EU and UK
22:19:53 <TrueBrain> read the best twitter thread ever btw?
22:19:55 <andythenorth> its simplifies my marketing
22:20:08 <andythenorth> we used to get tied in knots about 'our customers in UK/EU'
22:20:14 <andythenorth> UK/EU was a tautology
22:20:16 <TrueBrain> it is better than live tv, and it is still ongoing
22:20:22 <andythenorth> but nobody in UK thought they were in EU
22:21:07 <andythenorth> anyway, you should have your own PECR
22:21:16 <andythenorth> I hope OpenTTD is compliant
22:22:10 <TrueBrain> There are currently some edgecases
22:22:38 <TrueBrain> (mostly as I am getting used to AWS)
22:22:55 <andythenorth> oh you have a Dutch Telecommunications Act equivalent to PECR
22:25:34 <andythenorth> I just hope you never look what OS players use
22:26:15 <andythenorth> the client probably doesn't supply that?
22:27:54 <TrueBrain> Ah, that is what PECR is, that makes more sense
22:28:32 <andythenorth> it's illegal to access information about the terminal equipment
22:28:38 <andythenorth> except for specific purposes
22:29:00 <andythenorth> it's intended as a privacy law, but it's kind of constructed as a property law
22:29:15 <TrueBrain> in The Netherlands that law is with a completely different focus :P
22:29:45 <andythenorth> it probably still includes terminal equipment
22:29:52 <frosch123> TrueBrain: oh dear, i had a favorite brexit tweet. but it now has been declassed by far
22:30:04 <andythenorth> it has quite funny unintended consequences for network services
22:30:20 <TrueBrain> frosch123: you are welcome :)
22:30:23 <andythenorth> the 2017 draft ePrivacy Regulation even recognises that the 2002 version was, in EU speak, a fucking disaster
22:32:42 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: as far as I can see, the "Telecommunicatiewet" is really only about mobile providers really
22:33:10 <TrueBrain> we do have an "Informatieplicht", information-duty, so to say, which I thought PCRE was including
22:33:19 <andythenorth> maybe you did a better job in NL
22:33:31 <TrueBrain> the latter doesn't allow spam, spamcalls, phishing, etc
22:34:07 <TrueBrain> well, it might be in there
22:34:14 <TrueBrain> I just never heard anyone talk about it in that sense :)
22:34:45 <TrueBrain> it is about frequencies, how they are sold to companies, what to transmit (radio-programms), ..
22:34:58 <andythenorth> metadata about your device is your property
22:35:24 <andythenorth> using it without explicit consent is not allowed, except for specific exemptions
22:37:19 <andythenorth> it's all very silly, and will probably get replaced
22:37:53 <andythenorth> but any analytics using device information are illegal without consent
22:38:16 <TrueBrain> there is a part of what you post in the dutch law
22:38:30 <TrueBrain> but it is about using analytics to give an unfair advantage to a group of people
22:38:36 <andythenorth> I can process that data to respond to security threats or breaches
22:38:46 <andythenorth> I can use it if it's essential to delivering the service
22:38:55 <andythenorth> but I can't use it for anything else
22:39:27 <TrueBrain> here it notes that if you do, you are processing personal data
22:39:33 <TrueBrain> which .. is fine, as long as you follow the rules for that :)
22:39:46 <andythenorth> so I can incidentally do pro-active security, and find that e.g. 30% of our visits are from windows users on vulnerable IE
22:39:56 <andythenorth> but I then have to forget that information when designing the site
22:40:15 <TrueBrain> but okay, this law is meant for the communication network itself; I really wonder if it would apply for webservers tbh
22:40:36 <LordAro> computers are hard, as it turns out
22:40:38 <TrueBrain> in the NL, I mean ;)
22:40:40 <andythenorth> there are 2 EU determinations
22:40:44 <andythenorth> and a UK ICO determination
22:40:48 <andythenorth> it's quite clear
22:41:01 <andythenorth> I can use analytics to choose appropriate cypher suites for the clients
22:41:19 <andythenorth> and for delivering programmatic (javascript) changes to the design dynamically
22:41:24 <andythenorth> but not for the actual design
22:42:11 <andythenorth> I've read the EU findings, and had 2 legal counsel opinions
22:42:34 <TrueBrain> yeah, and I always wonder when NL followed EU by the letter, and when they made it more .. dutch
22:42:41 <TrueBrain> for GDPR they fucked up, and it is a 1 on 1
22:42:49 <TrueBrain> story goes they were too slow, and the EU deadline passed
22:42:54 <TrueBrain> no clue if that story is true :)
22:43:41 <TrueBrain> its funny, an explicit except is giving if you need that data to rate your effectiveness
22:44:02 <TrueBrain> so looking how many people access from Windows, is clearly within that excempt
22:44:26 <TrueBrain> but, also explicit, it must not hurt the enduser in any significant way
22:44:40 <TrueBrain> (So I cannot send you a webcam and force you to install it, basically :P)
22:45:37 <TrueBrain> yeah, funny, but it seems not as strong here as it is for you
22:46:22 <TrueBrain> you just need a good reason; not "because I wanted to know", but "because I want to make sure my Windows visitor get the best experience"
22:47:25 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: the differences are funny. PCRE says: "is given the opportunity to refuse the storage". Dutch law says: "has to give explicit concent"
22:47:27 <TrueBrain> see the difference? :D
22:48:14 <TrueBrain> yeah, the dutch law has more exempts :D Funny :)
22:51:41 <Eddi|zuHause> i've read that brexit thread earlier today, felt quite entertained and also sad about the state of the world...
22:52:11 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: do realise the twitter account is of an author of a book under his alias
22:52:35 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: seems our law changed in 2014 to change that part, from the strict part you have, to a more .. open form
22:54:18 <TrueBrain> yeah, from "strictly necessary" to "needed for quality or effectiveness"
22:56:09 <TrueBrain> 2015-03-11, the date the change was made in the law :)
22:56:14 <TrueBrain> I like how you can browse this online
22:56:18 <TrueBrain> they even show the diff between different versions
22:56:50 <TrueBrain> so it seems the UK stuck in the past
22:56:52 <TrueBrain> no surprise there :P
22:57:28 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: i'm treating everything i read on twitter as fictional anyway :)
23:00:35 <TrueBrain> what did I learn today? Well, that we had a shitty law till 2015, and the Dutch decided to change it into something sane. Yeah. Laws are allowed to change :P
23:06:16 *** DorpsGek_III has joined #openttd
23:06:16 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/JJUmU
23:18:41 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/JJUmz
23:29:45 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/JJUmQ
23:32:48 <TrueBrain> happy to live in a sane country
23:32:58 <TrueBrain> you should move here .. you wouldn't have this trouble :P
23:34:13 <andythenorth> is this why NL doesn't want to quit the EU?
23:34:43 <TrueBrain> no, that is because we are sane human beings :D
23:35:23 <TrueBrain> it is so easy to stab with this brexit stuff :P
23:35:39 <andythenorth> how come you don't have to implement the EU rulings?
23:35:49 <andythenorth> it's only a Directive, maybe that's why
23:36:17 <TrueBrain> I know there are 2 types of EU "rules", one you have to adapt, the other which you have to implement
23:36:23 <TrueBrain> the first is strict, the second leaves more room
23:36:36 <andythenorth> Directive vs. Regulation, or vice versa
23:36:50 <TrueBrain> but I am just repeating what people have been trying to tell me
23:36:56 <TrueBrain> I find it rather boring :P
23:37:15 <andythenorth> I have had to learn all this in the last 2 weeks :P
23:37:23 <andythenorth> the funny thing about Brexit
23:37:26 <andythenorth> well there is more than one
23:37:38 <TrueBrain> I have a basic understanding of GDPR, and that is enough law-bla for me for the rest of my life
23:37:51 <andythenorth> all our UK law is basically EU law for the forseeable future :P
23:37:58 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/JJUYI
23:38:03 <andythenorth> we wrote it all into UK statute
23:38:11 <TrueBrain> except that a lot of EU customers don't agree that it is equal :)
23:38:16 <andythenorth> and we don't have a functioning parliament or government :)
23:38:37 <andythenorth> every day should contain more lolz
23:38:45 <TrueBrain> I have heard a lot of: we want our data to be in the EU, so NOT in the UK, lately .. with the addition: we don't want to be the first in court to find out if the UK law means the same as the EU law
23:39:50 <TrueBrain> but the twitter thread earlier summarizes everything just fine :)
23:40:47 <andythenorth> ok is it time to automate my AWS deployment?
23:40:52 <andythenorth> or ad cloudfront for https?
23:41:01 <TrueBrain> cloudfront for https, yes
23:41:35 <andythenorth> tomorrow is more lolz
23:41:58 <andythenorth> was cloudfront easy or hard?
23:42:02 <andythenorth> AWS docs seem quite good
23:42:13 <andythenorth> everything worked great so far
23:44:49 <TrueBrain> CloudFront is piss easy
23:44:58 <andythenorth> I will do it while pissing
23:45:01 <TrueBrain> make certificate, add CloudFront, point to S3, add Certificate
23:45:16 <TrueBrain> for certificate you need DNS validation if it is not hosted by Route53
23:45:23 <andythenorth> it is hosted by Route53
23:45:31 <TrueBrain> it will do it for you if you press the button
23:45:39 <andythenorth> I will press the button after coffee
23:45:48 <andythenorth> then nobody can MITM my train pixels
23:45:50 <TrueBrain> the ONLY thing you might need to do, not sure, is a lambda@edge for / -> /index.html
23:45:57 <andythenorth> I read about that
23:46:05 <andythenorth> I don't rely on index pages for directories
23:46:17 <andythenorth> explicit paths to .html
23:46:30 <TrueBrain> in case you do want to add it
23:46:48 <TrueBrain> it is what OpenTTD uses :)
23:47:00 <andythenorth> my world has always been do routes in the application stack or webserver
23:47:05 <andythenorth> edge stuff is new and funky
23:47:14 *** andythenorth has left #openttd
23:49:44 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/JJUYD
23:49:45 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/JJUYy
continue to next day ⏵
