IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2020-06-26
⏴ go to previous day
00:00:18 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC
00:00:31 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd
00:52:13 <Speeder_> what reddit requested?
00:52:26 <Speeder_> honestly I don't understand why there is no military stuff in openttd
00:53:00 <Speeder_> the reasoning I see on that page is literally, dangerous, according to some research.
01:09:10 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd
01:09:18 <supermop_Home> Speeder_part of it is the spirit of the game
01:10:09 <supermop_Home> part of it, is that there is no way to do any war related gameplay, so military transport is pretty meaningless
01:11:12 <supermop_Home> and at the level of abstraction that Openttd gameplay is at, materiel would really just be mostly 'Goods' or equivalent
01:12:09 <supermop_Home> so it kind of takes of the air of trying to force martial themes into a space where they are kind of alien
01:13:07 <Speeder_> what I was referring too is the "ages" thing
01:13:22 <Speeder_> the spirit of the game is avoid war themes to make it fit all ages
01:13:31 <supermop_Home> that's part of it
01:13:40 <Speeder_> problem is... there are strong suspicions this is why wars are cyclic
01:14:26 <Speeder_> adults, that didn't saw war personally, know it is bad because the generation that did saw war tells them, but they don't tell their own kids, kinda like OpenTTD spirit document.
01:15:09 <Speeder_> when the veterans all are dead, the kids that were raised not knowing about war, think war is good idea to make changes.
01:15:13 <Speeder_> and then start a real war.
01:15:14 <supermop_Home> personally i find the need to cram military stuff into an abstract world that has no war or even nations, is more disturbing that military stuff in a game about war
01:16:11 <supermop_Home> Speeder_ most of the people who decide to make war at the national level were certainly alive for at least one previous war
01:16:47 <Speeder_> supermop_Home, I am not talking about USA style of attacking random countries far away
01:16:57 <Speeder_> I am talking about major wars, civil wars, etc...
01:17:42 <Speeder_> anyway what I just said is the theory in a field named "cliodynamics"
01:18:24 <Speeder_> for example in USA internal violence spikes every 50 years or so. with one of those peaks being the civil war.
01:18:47 <supermop_Home> i'm not sure what civil war was started in a country that had no living memory of violent conflict
01:22:34 <supermop_Home> also i do not need to have been in a war to know that i do not prefer force of arms as means of enacting policy
01:24:07 <Speeder_> supermop_Home, how I explain it... when there is mounting unrest, people that lived through a civil war feel inclined to fix the situation harder without conflict, but people that didn't see a civil war might feel tempted to use violence, for example with riots or political assassination.
01:24:12 <Speeder_> then things escalate from there.
01:24:53 <supermop_Home> also most people in my grandparents generation who fought in the war did not really talk about it until very late in life - long after their children or even grandchildren were adults
01:25:41 <supermop_Home> i was already in my mid 20s by the time my grandpa was ready to talk about his time in the Philippines
01:25:53 <Speeder_> supermop_Home, you think if there was unrest and young people were calling for war, the silent veterans wouldn't tell them to cut the crap?
01:26:10 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC
01:26:29 <supermop_Home> i don't know, I've never lived somewhere where young people have called for war
01:26:33 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd
01:26:39 <supermop_Home> only where old people have called for war
01:27:45 <Speeder_> supermop_Home, I assume you live in a somewhat advanced country.
01:27:52 <supermop_Home> and of my peers who did go to war, some have become more conservative, and some more liberal after.
01:27:54 <Speeder_> in economic sens,e that is.
01:28:33 <Speeder_> supermop_Home, where are you from, if you don't mind me asking?
01:29:03 <supermop_Home> though none of my acquaintances who did go to war thought it was a good idea after they came home (not counting the one who didn't come home)
01:30:00 <supermop_Home> a place that has been to war in each of the past 8 decades
01:30:22 <supermop_Home> im going to go grab some ice cream
01:58:16 <Speeder_> nearby_station_name my nml doesn't compile because of that
01:58:20 <Speeder_> why nearby_station_name is not valid?
03:15:15 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz updated pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/Jf9yI
03:39:14 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd
04:28:55 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz updated pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/Jf9yI
04:34:37 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz updated pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/Jf9yI
05:02:49 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz updated pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/Jf9yI
05:03:58 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/JfjCF
05:40:38 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz updated pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/Jf9yI
05:48:34 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/Jfjl8
07:33:45 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8235: Fix for 'Huge screenshot' warning being shown incorrectly https://git.io/Jfj4y
07:59:15 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz updated pull request #8224: Cleanup: Remove redundant implementation of TakeScreenshot https://git.io/JfdP1
08:03:21 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd
08:09:03 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8224: Cleanup: Remove redundant implementation of TakeScreenshot https://git.io/JfjB0
08:20:34 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC
08:20:47 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd
08:23:54 *** arikover has joined #openttd
08:26:09 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
08:36:39 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz updated pull request #8224: Cleanup: Remove redundant implementation of TakeScreenshot https://git.io/JfdP1
10:16:56 *** Maarten has joined #openttd
10:29:22 *** Progman has joined #openttd
10:42:42 *** gelignite has joined #openttd
12:09:33 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] abmyii commented on pull request #8235: Fix for 'Huge screenshot' warning being shown incorrectly https://git.io/JfjwM
12:41:03 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8235: Fix for 'Huge screenshot' warning being shown incorrectly https://git.io/Jfjol
13:33:10 *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd
13:33:10 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir
14:44:31 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
15:04:50 *** virtualrandomnumber has joined #openttd
15:07:54 *** virtualrandomnumber has quit IRC
15:15:40 *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd
15:15:41 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir
15:25:43 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd
15:31:36 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
15:41:39 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
16:00:55 *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd
16:00:56 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir
16:52:18 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd
17:26:32 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd
17:35:30 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd
17:52:57 *** andythenorth_ has joined #openttd
17:57:41 *** b_jonas has joined #openttd
18:27:25 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] duckfullstop opened pull request #8238: Update documentation to acknowledge integer type mismatch in certain admin packets https://git.io/JfjFU
18:27:37 <duckfullstop> ^ as discussed a week or two ago in this channel
18:51:24 <b_jonas> can you tell me what the settings in new world generation mean, especially "Terrain type", "Variety distribution" and "Smoothness"? I haven't seen docs for these, and there don't seem to be tooltips
18:52:22 <b_jonas> I'm trying to generate a nice starting map, with a combination of fiddling with options and startscumming, which I think is worth the time since I'll ideally spend real world days playing on the same map
18:53:52 <nielsm> terrain type: maximum height generated
18:55:03 <nielsm> variety distribution: amount of areas that are flat as opposed to high (makes flat areas in mountainous maps)
18:56:20 <nielsm> smoothness (somewhat) controls how jagged the map can be, lower smoothness can lead to more small bumps
18:58:03 <nielsm> the effect of smoothness can be difficult to see due to the way ottd terrain works
18:59:14 <b_jonas> ah yes, smoothness definitely seems to affect the edges of the continent at the oceans on each of the four map edges
19:00:18 <b_jonas> what I don't like about these generated terrains is that it puts so many transmitters on the hills. it's probably because I lowered the density of towns and industries so there's space to put those transmitters, but that's rather annoying
19:00:28 <b_jonas> I'd be happy with mountains if they weren't so full of transmitters
19:00:47 <b_jonas> is there some way to change that, short of magic bulldozering them?
19:00:58 <b_jonas> or, I guess, using the scenario editor
19:02:22 <b_jonas> I'll try the scenario editor then
19:03:04 <b_jonas> but wait, there's a "Maximum map height" option too, besides the "Terrain type". how do those differ?
19:03:33 <nielsm> I'm not actually sure how they interact
19:06:33 <b_jonas> can I somehow generate a world with the normal world generator and edit it with the scenario editor?
19:07:08 <b_jonas> the scenario editor has some of the tools from that, like the heighmap generator including rivers, random trees, random towns, random industries etc, but not the whole thing together
19:07:24 <nielsm> nope, we talked a bit about that the other day
19:07:33 <nielsm> how the editor is lacking those tools
19:07:41 <b_jonas> I'm not saying that I'm missing the random transmitter placement specifically, mind you
19:08:36 <nielsm> I'm planning to make some improvement to the trees tool, hopefully I can get some code working tonight or sunday
19:08:54 <andythenorth_> maybe landscape generation in stages?
19:09:01 <andythenorth_> map, then features?
19:09:36 <b_jonas> is there a newgrf that turns off the animation of the sea? I know the "Full animation" option in the settings menu turns it off, so that's a good workaround until that. the animation is distracting when I zoom far out, because then it just looks like the water is flashing
19:10:35 <b_jonas> also, while I'm not sure I actually want this, is there a newgrf for temperate climate that makes Steel plants require both iron ore and coal, Locomotion style?
19:12:16 <b_jonas> in the scenario editor, how do I create rough land tiles (dark green)? there's a tool to create rock tiles, but I don't see a rough land one
19:13:01 <b_jonas> ok never mind, I probably can't use the scenario editor for this
19:13:16 <b_jonas> I'll just generate a map and magic bulldozer the transmitters
19:18:17 *** virtualrandomnumber has joined #openttd
19:41:42 <b_jonas> ok, I removed most transmitters and lighthouses with the magic bulldozer, I'll try to play the map this way
19:43:47 <b_jonas> thank you for the help andythenorth_ and nielsm
19:50:12 <FLHerne> duckfullstop: Question: why are the reddit server maps so incredibly huge?
19:50:39 <duckfullstop> FLHerne: it's to try to encourage people to spread out a bit and not get on other people's toes (we have regular issues with intentional blocking)
19:51:03 <FLHerne> Yeah, but then no-one interacts and there's no point in it being multiplayer :p
19:51:15 <duckfullstop> they were made hugerer with the last infra move, S2's map in particular may be downsized soon
19:51:24 <duckfullstop> yeah, it's a fine balance
19:51:39 <FLHerne> Especially with the number of industries
19:51:59 <duckfullstop> I did screw with the settings recently, there's definitely more tweaks to come
19:52:11 <FLHerne> I mean, literally 98% of these are never going to be used by anyone
19:52:31 <duckfullstop> actually, let me tweak the staging config quickly
19:52:35 <duckfullstop> thanks for reminding me to do that
19:53:42 <duckfullstop> I've dropped the map size on S2 but S1 needs more thought
19:54:06 <duckfullstop> the problem is when you have so many clients (not to brag), the potential for abuse is so much higher
19:54:44 <duckfullstop> I've noticed an uptick in the last 4-5 months of people causing issues by intentionally blocking, then again map size won't stop abuse by those who wish to abuse
19:54:57 <duckfullstop> fairly sure lockdown's given the trolls way more free time
19:56:06 <duckfullstop> might also experiment with switching firs out for ecs, that's tbd though
19:56:15 <FLHerne> Alternate or something?
19:56:31 <FLHerne> I wouldn't mind playing with ECS more, it seems underused
19:57:01 <duckfullstop> maybe, alternating requires my new tooling to be a bit more complete
19:57:23 <duckfullstop> I don't have the time to manually twist the config regularly, laziness requires automation :V
19:58:32 <FLHerne> FWIW, the huge maps and excess industries really do put me off
19:59:35 <FLHerne> It just feels futile trying to build a network when I'll never be able to build a comprehensive network even in a small area
20:11:23 <b_jonas> as for excess industries, I wish I could pay an industry to close faster if nobody services it (eg. pay a large sum every month to guarantee that it will decrease its production if it doesn't get any service)
20:11:35 <b_jonas> sometimes a few industries really get in the way
20:12:22 <frosch123> b_jonas: no idea whether someone mentioned it already, but you can generate a normal map, save it, rename the save from .sav to .scn, and load it in scenario editor
20:14:20 <nielsm> time to try if this explodes!
20:33:15 <b_jonas> frosch123: ah thanks, that might be useful
20:34:47 <b_jonas> I might try that the next time, now I'm already playing this map, and at the phase where I try to figure out how to use signals correctly
20:36:50 <b_jonas> especially path signals for the early game where some of my tracks are two-way and some are one-way and they have to merge somehow
20:44:34 <andythenorth_> duckfullstop you need a better FIRS :P
20:44:45 <andythenorth_> I haven't released a v4 preview yet
20:45:22 <andythenorth_> not sure Steeltown is suited to casual server play though
20:48:13 <TrueBrain> andythenorth_: something is following you ... it looks like a _
20:49:48 *** gelignite has joined #openttd
20:51:58 <andythenorth_> now you have given me the fear
20:52:10 <andythenorth_> it's like the white rabbit when you're on drugs
20:52:15 <andythenorth_> stuck behind your legs
20:52:21 <andythenorth_> wherever you turn, it's behind you
20:52:56 <frosch123> you mean like when there is always a ghost truelight behind you?
20:55:10 <TrueBrain> wait what where OMG NO RUN RUN RUN
20:55:23 <TrueBrain> (it is that I am too lazy to find out how to leave the channel .. but otherwise I would have :P)
20:56:13 <frosch123> you have a bot for that. try @kick truebrain_ii
20:56:25 <TrueBrain> BUT I DONT WANT TO :(
20:56:29 <TrueBrain> wait, my alter ego is still here?
20:56:32 *** TrueBrain_ii was kicked by DorpsGek (TrueBrain)
20:56:35 <TrueBrain> yeah, that helps :)
20:56:58 <TrueBrain> lol; it crashed Konversation :D Nice :)
20:58:11 <TrueBrain> 22k unread messages on that alter-ego, w00p
20:58:56 <frosch123> reply to the oldest one?
21:00:42 <TrueBrain> making a backup to install update 2004 ..
21:00:52 <TrueBrain> found out how much crap I have on disk
21:01:46 <frosch123> i hope 2004 is not a year
21:02:27 <LordAro> it would've been 2003, but they bumped it to not cause confusion with the server version
21:07:01 <TrueBrain> Windows Update doesn't show the update yet, but I have been told that the Windows 10 setup is going to install it .. lets find out!
21:07:05 <TrueBrain> what could POSSIBLY go wrong :D
21:21:31 <nielsm> and that's an editor-only tool
21:24:13 <andythenorth_> brush painting :)
21:28:06 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd
21:32:51 <frosch123> nielsm: you probably want to look for SZSP_HORIZONTAL
21:38:57 <nielsm> now I'm not sure if I should make it do drag paintbrush style, or just keep it to single clicks
21:39:30 <frosch123> shall i link the terraform drama? :p
21:39:32 <LordAro> i'd say that would be better almost entirely
21:39:48 <LordAro> as long as it doesn't repeat if you don't move
21:39:59 <nielsm> will people be angry if I improve the scenario editor tools?
21:40:10 <nielsm> and make them not-annoying to use
21:40:16 <LordAro> <insert Workflow xkcd here>
21:40:57 <frosch123> nielsm: there was some argument whether dragging should action immediately, or whether it should make a rectangle orthogonal/diagonal
21:41:07 <frosch123> and whether se and in-game should be the same or different
21:41:35 <frosch123> trunk went with making terraform orthogonal on drag, and diagonal on ctrl+drag, in both se/in-game
21:41:45 <frosch123> so, the drag-paint fanboys were unhappy :)
21:42:33 <LordAro> i feel like no one knows about the ctrl+drag feature
21:46:33 <nielsm> meh, no drag-painting for now, not in the mood to try to understand the VpStartPlaceSizing and family functions enough to add a new mode
21:47:15 <frosch123> yep, i think i tried to refactor them twice, failed twice :)
21:48:26 <nielsm> maybe the solution is not to refactor but to rewrite
21:49:36 <frosch123> i dreamed of having proper highlights when placing industries and other non-rectangular shapes
21:49:59 <frosch123> they are decided on the client
21:50:36 <frosch123> so the highlight could know which one it is going to be
21:50:50 <frosch123> or you could make a scroll-wheel select layout or similar
21:51:37 <supermop_Home> in SE, it would be nice to select layout
21:52:36 <frosch123> it could also red-highlight the tiles that fail the slope check
21:52:45 <frosch123> instead of just erroring after clicking
21:52:47 <nielsm> hm does the client decide which layout to use? is it game-random or interactive-random?
21:53:01 <frosch123> iirc it is the interactive-random
21:53:15 <frosch123> so the funding client decides the layout
21:53:21 <nielsm> right, yeah then it could definitely be shown
21:54:19 <frosch123> * - p1 = (bit 8 - 15) - first layout to try <- ah, not quite correct
21:55:33 <andythenorth_> I thought it tried all layouts in a sequence?
21:55:45 <frosch123> still, i think the purpose of those bits were to make the test-run on the client work
21:55:50 <frosch123> so the preview is still valid
21:56:21 <nielsm> there, observe the sausages
21:56:22 <frosch123> andythenorth_: no, it tries them in a randomised order
21:56:34 <andythenorth_> that's interesting :)
21:57:49 <frosch123> hmm, again slightly off :) it picks a random first layout to try, then tries them in order
21:58:23 <frosch123> so if you have 5 hard layouts, followed by 2 easily placed layouts, the first easily placed one is way more likely that the other
21:59:32 <andythenorth_> related: I can't decide if large layouts would be good or not
21:59:46 <andythenorth_> I removed them from FIRS because they don't get placed
21:59:53 <andythenorth_> I also can't remember if they looked good
22:00:30 <frosch123> there are some kids who play on entirely flat maps
22:00:36 <supermop_Home> they look good, but a map covered in the same huge aluminum mill everywhere is od
22:01:09 <supermop_Home> sheds, outbuildings, piles of stuff should be fields?
22:05:29 <supermop_Home> nielsm trees look good
22:06:16 <supermop_Home> off to get beer
22:07:17 <andythenorth_> FLHerne kind of is a 1:1 fiddle yard
22:07:33 <andythenorth_> FIRS quarries used to be huge
22:07:43 <andythenorth_> and required all flat :P
22:09:21 <andythenorth_> 9x6 fruit plantation
22:10:38 <andythenorth_> a 'big' FIRS industry now is 5x4
22:10:50 <andythenorth_> but most stations I build are 6 or 8 TL
22:16:50 *** Yourself has joined #openttd
22:18:52 *** Yourself is now known as Yourself_
22:20:22 <andythenorth_> I could maybe push them to 6x5
22:25:48 <frosch123> ttd industries are quite dense
22:25:56 <frosch123> real ones have a lot of roads on site
22:26:17 <andythenorth_> I did have gapped industries, but I removed them
22:27:01 <andythenorth_> if I had higher capacity wagons, I could use shorter trains :P
22:27:03 <frosch123> yes, but those were with grass?
22:27:05 <andythenorth_> then it would all be chibi
22:27:12 <andythenorth_> those were gapped with grass yes
22:27:18 <frosch123> what if there were tram tracks and heqs vehicles?
22:27:34 <frosch123> owned by the industry, not player-accessible
22:27:56 <andythenorth_> just as sprites?
22:28:16 <andythenorth_> nielsm has that branch for sub-layouts
22:28:23 <frosch123> yes, essentially: less building, more industry-owned infrastructure tiles
22:28:50 <andythenorth_> I think for really big layout yes it would be better to repeat a smaller layout 2 or 3 times, and have roads
22:29:07 <andythenorth_> I don't know if I like really big layouts
22:29:20 <andythenorth_> also Will They Build? :D
22:30:21 <nielsm> the major issue with sub-layouts is if they fail to build it's difficult to roll back, or you can't figure out whether it would be possible to build
22:31:04 <andythenorth_> I could do a similar thing in the compile, but more pre-baked
22:45:56 <b_jonas> I have the feeling that this layout will cause problems and I'll have to debug it later
22:56:25 <Speeder_> nml5 with old syntax support is not released as package yet?
continue to next day ⏵
