IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2020-06-22
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00:02:07 <Speeder_> anyone know what is the industry newgrf easiest to modify to work with nml5 features?
00:02:18 <Speeder_> (like specific inputs having specific outputs)
00:11:54 <andythenorth> I doubt there are any yet
00:54:31 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison opened pull request #8233: Fix 63ccb36e: Incorrect string type for OrderBackup::name save/load https://git.io/JfN1i
00:55:40 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8233: Fix 63ccb36e: Incorrect string type for OrderBackup::name save/load https://git.io/JfN1X
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04:27:14 <supermop_Home> why is there no random rivers tool in scenario editor?
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07:19:44 <Eddi|zuHause> because you didn't write one?
07:19:55 <Eddi|zuHause> or maybe i didn't... who knows :p
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08:02:45 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh merged pull request #8233: Fix 63ccb36e: Incorrect string type for OrderBackup::name save/load https://git.io/JfN1i
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08:07:19 <arikover> hello, and good morning/afternoon/evening (timezone-friendly greetings)
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12:05:16 <andythenorth> OpenTTD for ARM on macOS then? o_OO
12:10:10 <LordAro> we already know it compiles to ARM easy enough (via android port if nothing else)
12:10:26 * andythenorth wonders what ARM Mac performance will be like
12:10:39 <andythenorth> full circle, my first computer was an Acorn A3000
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14:13:44 <andythenorth> how will we attract new players and popularity now :(
14:17:03 <Eddi|zuHause> apparently with overly dramatic music that doesn't fit the setting
14:21:14 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 merged pull request #8231: Fix #8230: Resolve ".." when opening files in .tar https://git.io/Jfb1Q
14:21:15 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 closed issue #8230: Cannot open the file when starting AI downloaded via online service https://git.io/JfbcQ
14:24:38 <FLHerne> andythenorth: It was fine on PPC Macs back in that day, nothing new
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14:54:49 <supermop_Home> I need a way more more rivers than 'many'
14:56:01 <supermop_Home> also reloading the same heightmap multiple times gives some sort of non sensical rivers in the same place
16:14:53 <supermop_Home> andythenorth those miners seem to be just standing around doing a lot of nothing
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16:39:58 <supermop_Home> i feel like coal and limestone, and potash should all be somewhat co-located?
16:40:19 <supermop_Home> iron ore would be in less sedimentary rock?
16:50:47 <andythenorth> supermop_Home plausible, not sure it works for actually generating industries reliably in current model
16:56:17 <supermop_Home> im placing by hand now
16:57:38 <supermop_Home> assuming ill put iron in mountains in one area, coal and the rest in hills or flat areas on the other side of the map?
16:59:07 <supermop_Home> according to this map there sure is a bunch of zinc in the US
17:00:25 <supermop_Home> andy: rocky ground grey in coal / limestone region, red in iron or cinnabar areas?
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17:19:20 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #6101: Hotkeys: using 2 byte language's letter in Hotkeys.cfg https://git.io/JfAQ9
17:22:51 <Timberwolf> supermop_Home: Full evil mode: coal/iron/cinnabar mines work like the tropical lumber mill. Enjoy rock planting.
17:25:54 <supermop_Home> coal mine: plant forest -> fast forward 100M years -> prospect mine
17:31:03 <supermop_Home> can industries check the flatness of their surrounding area?
17:31:15 <Timberwolf> "We have just designed a new dinosaur - would you be interested in a year's exclusive use of this reptile, so we can see how it performs before making it universally available?"
17:31:39 <supermop_Home> like pick open pit or shaft/drift based on terrain
17:34:13 <supermop_Home> or maybe having the different mines be different industries
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17:43:48 <andythenorth> industries can check flatness
17:43:55 <andythenorth> it gets unwise quickly
18:00:57 <supermop_Home> andythenorth not to allow / disallow, just to pick sprites?
18:01:53 <andythenorth> even worse, runs more often :)
18:04:23 <supermop_Home> terraform and your open pit mine becomes a deep shaft?
18:08:39 <supermop_Home> after spending hours first fixing mountains so they don't have weird craters, and valleys so they flow down hill, then manually drawing in rivers, then placing towns (at bays on the coast, along rivers, not a city on mountain top)
18:08:57 <supermop_Home> then placing industries in sensible loctions
18:09:30 <supermop_Home> what are the chances i start the game an some newgrf thing is totally wrong
18:09:47 <supermop_Home> i'm betting on 1 in 3
18:15:16 <andythenorth> you probably have the wrong GS
18:15:31 <andythenorth> recently all my games I have forgotten that I have 10 Civil AI configured
18:15:40 <andythenorth> this has...consequences
18:15:53 <andythenorth> and I never save and restart OpenTTD so the config changes never stick
18:15:57 <andythenorth> as I always crash it
18:16:42 <supermop_Home> mine is always computer restarts over night after a few days for some update
18:16:54 <LordAro> andythenorth: i've had similar issues
18:17:39 <andythenorth> it isn't something that should be fixed :)
18:17:43 <andythenorth> special class of user :P
18:18:33 <supermop_Home> i'd like a quick scenario editor
18:19:36 <supermop_Home> basically generates everything like you were starting a new game, then quickly check to delete any stupid industries or towns, then one button to immediate begin playing
18:22:28 <andythenorth> it never occurred to me :)
18:22:41 <andythenorth> I usually generate 20-50 maps to get a new game
18:23:04 <andythenorth> some of the reasons are valid, eg. not enough coal mines or ore mines to be viable
18:23:19 <andythenorth> some are aesthetic (no port industries in tiny lakes)
18:23:22 <supermop_Home> that way you don't need to go down a rabbit hole of scenario editor time, nor do you have to save the scenario then load it
18:23:27 <andythenorth> some are stupid (some town names are a jinx)
18:23:53 <supermop_Home> stupid / distracting towns/water/industries
18:24:09 <supermop_Home> just needs like 90 seconds to fix it
18:24:38 <andythenorth> 'add more coal mines' :P
18:25:00 <supermop_Home> random industries by type also would be nice
18:25:10 <andythenorth> oh SE has no 'add random of type x' :o
18:25:14 <andythenorth> has to be placed manually
18:25:37 <andythenorth> supermop_Home probably a GS should do all this? o_O
18:25:42 * andythenorth is a terrible person
18:25:57 <supermop_Home> you can do many random (all) industries, many random towns, many random trees
18:26:18 <supermop_Home> you can also do single random town
18:26:51 <supermop_Home> single random industry of selected type - similar to towns - would be nice
18:27:18 <supermop_Home> many random and perhaps single random river would be nice too
18:28:00 <supermop_Home> or just random only (primary / secondary) industry
18:28:02 <nielsm> nah the scenario editor should also have a feature to just jump right into the game
18:28:07 <nielsm> like disk menu -> "play scenario now"
18:28:16 <supermop_Home> that's what i'm saying
18:28:49 <supermop_Home> its too much fuss now, so typically we just re-roll new games over and over again to fix these small problems
18:29:05 <nielsm> (microsoft should make some more effort to not require visual studio updates to need a system reboot)
18:29:33 <supermop_Home> where as SE -> roll game -> make small fixes -> one click to play would be nice
18:29:33 <andythenorth> I mean, fixing FIRS ports would solve 25% of my problems
18:29:44 <andythenorth> and 25% of the problems are problems only I have :P
18:30:19 <supermop_Home> it's just one button
18:31:28 <supermop_Home> (pony would be a button in disc menu for one-click load game into scenario editor)
18:31:29 <andythenorth> SE starts totally flat and empty though?
18:31:38 <andythenorth> do I miss something? :)
18:32:07 <supermop_Home> you have to click landscape - random map to then roll the map
18:32:39 <nielsm> the number of clicks to reach the map generator is too high imo
18:32:56 <andythenorth> supermop_Home no
18:33:09 <andythenorth> ~ newgame [cursor up] [enter]
18:33:46 <supermop_Home> should be option when you click scenario editor whether to start with flat land or generated landscape?
18:33:59 <supermop_Home> like who ever wants the flat land/
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18:35:48 <andythenorth> hedgehog population?
18:38:00 <glx> [18:29:06] <nielsm> (microsoft should make some more effort to not require visual studio updates to need a system reboot) <-- this requirement seems random, sometimes it doesn't need it
18:38:29 <nielsm> it seems _some_ updates need to touch some files that apparently are too system-y
18:38:30 <glx> worse thing is "shutdown is not reboot"
18:39:59 <glx> they should do like windows update with "update and shutdown"
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18:48:34 <frosch123> what is wrong with people, when they start translating the nfo specs into polish?
18:49:42 <andythenorth> that is very diligent
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19:07:57 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds like a maintenance nightmare
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19:21:50 <frosch123> because the wording of the specs is difficult, things get lost in translation
19:22:15 <frosch123> but well, maybe they get around to translating a nml tutorial
19:22:36 <frosch123> translated tutorials are way more useful than translated references
19:42:36 <glx> nfo specs are already not very clear in english, it will be worse after translation
19:45:53 <DorpsGek_III> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
20:29:49 <nielsm> dP: so what did that graph show? some kind of return on investment?
20:31:04 <dP> nielsm, yeah, total profit if it's immediately reinvested
20:31:22 <dP> nielsm, in 1 year with 100k gbp start
20:31:44 <Wolf01> Nice, new transport fever 2 patch, I wonder how many mods will break
20:32:02 <nielsm> the sawtooth shape looks a bit suspicious to me
20:32:41 <dP> nielsm, it grows with distance until you get less trains at start
20:32:51 <dP> then it drops significantly
20:37:07 <supermop_Home> three blast furnaces should be enough for a 512x512 map?
20:39:17 <dP> hm, in the end, not on start, since it's measured after 1 year with distance increasing some trains won't be arriving in time and thus income drops
20:39:51 <dP> it also ignores topology completely so trains spawn on station and can easily go at the same time
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21:32:48 <nielsm> so basically 250-350 tiles is the optimum distance to move stuff
21:34:17 <dP> nielsm, optimal distance to get money fast with sh125
21:36:35 <dP> called "200 gbp start" in chart type
21:40:10 <dP> what makes me confident that it works relatively correctly is that sh125 is the best engine for a 1 year time frame xD
21:44:11 <nielsm> trying to change it over to use a matrix widget instead of 12 individual button controls
21:45:29 <nielsm> problem is right now the window is getting sized after the "plant trees of random type" button", making it wider than the ideal width of 4 tree buttons, and then the matrix widget draws 5 buttons per row even though they don't all fit
21:45:51 <nielsm> while in the original code with individual buttons, those buttons just got to stretch proportionally
21:46:22 <dP> can't you set max items in row for a matrix?
21:46:33 <nielsm> the matrix is really weird in some ways
21:46:46 <nielsm> it also doesn't have a way to get the currently selected item, only set
21:57:34 <andythenorth> nielsm laying ground for newgrf trees? o_O
21:58:06 <nielsm> that's one of the ideas yes, at least make it slightly less pain if that ever happens
21:58:19 <nielsm> my immediate goal is really just to make some better tree tools for the editor
21:58:29 <andythenorth> I always just put it on 'random'
21:58:45 <andythenorth> if we had arbitrary regions....
21:58:52 <andythenorth> we could have ForestTypes
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22:03:25 <nielsm> once again I find that I want the GUI widget sizing to be two-stage in some way
22:03:50 <supermop_Home> i just want trees on shaded side of hills to be shaded
22:04:06 <supermop_Home> so you can actually see your pretty mountains
22:04:09 <nielsm> to support "widgets with fixed (minimum) size that force the containing window's size to a minimum" and also "widgets with dynamic size that need to scale in custom ways depending on the window's size"
22:04:31 <nielsm> I did a hack some time ago to make trees shaded
22:09:50 <andythenorth> I'm sure you did screenshots
22:10:36 <andythenorth> meh, mac is idle, but running fans and draining battery
22:10:51 <nielsm> yeah I'm very sure I took screenshots of it, but can't find them in the irc logs
22:10:51 <andythenorth> 'this will never happen with ARM'
22:11:15 <nielsm> oh or maybe I should look at 2019 logs instead of 2018 ones
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22:17:41 <supermop_Home> looks beautiful for Appalachia / upstate NY
22:19:33 <nielsm> the results look great, the way I got them is not pretty to look at :)
22:23:24 <supermop_Home> anyone here have any experience with german modular toolboxes?
22:25:36 <nielsm> toolboxes as in boxes to store hand tools for various crafting in? (my answer is no regardless)
22:25:58 <supermop_Home> Festool/systainer vs sortimo/L-Boxx vs Auer
22:26:20 <supermop_Home> nielsm exactly. both for tools and for hardware
22:37:14 <glx> that's the only thing I know :)
22:42:35 <supermop_Home> but you can buy the boxes in the system without the festool tools though
22:43:28 <supermop_Home> also hitachi and Makita also make cases compatible with that system. Bosch however uses the Sortimo L-Boxx system
22:56:56 <supermop_Home> of those festool is the most common / esteemed here, which makes me interested in the other two brands as a contrarian i guess
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23:00:53 <nielsm> (never mind that my "regular" installation is 1.10.1 and I haven't got around to update it yet)
23:07:17 <nielsm> also: time to make sure our mac builds are cross-arch once again
23:07:33 <nielsm> or make separate ones for intel and arm
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23:09:34 <supermop_Home> the idea is only as many buttons as there are trees?
23:09:53 <nielsm> that's really just a side effect of the technical changes :)
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23:10:09 <nielsm> it wasn't a goal for me
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