IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2020-06-21
⏴ go to previous day
01:07:38 *** Gadg8eer has joined #openttd
01:11:38 <snail_UES_> is there any easy way to figure out a GRF’s ID?
01:11:50 <snail_UES_> or do I have to ask the developer?
01:16:30 <FLHerne> snail_UES_: You can see it in-game
01:17:18 <FLHerne> snail_UES_: Or `grfid` will tell you
01:17:26 <snail_UES_> ohh in the newGRF settings… got it
01:17:30 <FLHerne> Which is part of the grfcodec tools iirc
01:19:22 <FLHerne> And I think it's shown on BaNaNaS?
01:22:38 *** Gustavo6046 has joined #openttd
01:25:10 *** Gustavo6046 has joined #openttd
01:53:46 *** Gustavo6046 has joined #openttd
01:58:52 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd
03:23:00 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd
03:50:25 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd
05:01:50 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd
06:25:06 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd
08:14:27 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro requested changes for pull request #8231: Fix #8230: Resolve ".." when opening files in .tar https://git.io/JfNtV
08:15:24 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8231: Fix #8230: Resolve ".." when opening files in .tar https://git.io/JfNtw
08:31:55 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd
08:33:12 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
08:49:09 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd
09:20:14 <nielsm> hm, that long post written on AIs yesterday makes me think, maybe it would be okay to add a setting to (individual) AI players to allow them to cheat
09:21:44 <nielsm> e.g. so those decoration road vehicles ones can just give themselves money, or allow an AI to get around local authority restrictions
09:22:17 <nielsm> allow AI authors to use the classic "can't make it smart so just give it an unfair advantage" trick
09:23:09 <andythenorth> aren't they supposed to write a GS for decoration vehicles?
09:23:28 <nielsm> yeah that's been my argument previously too
09:23:32 <nielsm> "but I want to use another GS as well!"
09:23:51 <andythenorth> [repeat for every 'but use GS' case]
09:24:18 <LordAro> nielsm: wasn't "the original AI cheats" a huge reason for getting rid of it in the first place?
09:24:30 <LordAro> personally i don't really think the decoration AIs should exist
09:24:51 <LordAro> (i've not seen the post)
09:25:27 <andythenorth> maybe we should give AIs access to the GS API?
09:25:32 <andythenorth> then they could cheat as deity
09:25:38 <andythenorth> and do GS things
09:25:58 <nielsm> I'd want the player to give permission to an AI to cheat
09:26:09 <nielsm> i.e. a checkbox next to the starting date offset setting
09:26:30 <andythenorth> potato / potato for me
09:26:39 <andythenorth> I think the interesting thing is giving them unlimited powers
09:27:21 <LordAro> good thoughts in that post
09:27:37 <LordAro> i'd be perfectly happy with bundling an AI (SimpleAI?) with OTTD though
09:28:16 <nielsm> two challenges with bundling an AI: suddenly it's our job to maintain it
09:28:28 <nielsm> and someone will definitely come screaming "unfair competition"
09:28:41 <LordAro> sure, but in a way that's easier to do when it's bundled
09:28:49 <LordAro> there's plenty of AIs on bananas that just don't work
09:29:06 <andythenorth> so we've got some kind of curated list?
09:29:15 <LordAro> even AroAI has still has a potential crash if you have the right set of GRFs, iirc :)
09:30:22 <LordAro> nielsm: SimpleAI is the only AI i'm aware of that doesn't just go "all out" when trying to build stuff
09:30:23 <nielsm> it should perhaps also be easier to make an AI not crash, somehow
09:30:30 <LordAro> and it mimics the original
09:30:59 <LordAro> automatically restart the AI (as if reloading the game) on crash, perhaps?
09:31:09 <andythenorth> also, co-operative multi-tasking for GS? o_O
09:31:12 <LordAro> things would no doubt get stuck in a loop though
09:31:13 <andythenorth> 1980s comes to say hi
09:32:24 <andythenorth> what is the actual blocker to running n GS in one game?
09:32:52 <nielsm> just implementing it I think
09:33:14 <LordAro> also all existing GSes would fall apart if there were competing ones?
09:33:22 <LordAro> i don't see the benefit?
09:33:27 <nielsm> though the GS API allows lots of things that make me nervous of the question "but what if two scripts tried doing this at the same time?"
09:33:48 <andythenorth> well they wouldn't
09:33:55 <andythenorth> they would have an execution order
09:34:00 <nielsm> "almost at the same time"
09:34:23 <andythenorth> what if 2 newgrfs both provide cargos?
09:34:29 <andythenorth> that tends to break
09:34:31 <LordAro> what would be the benefit of having 2 GS at once?
09:34:34 <nielsm> there may be some problems with goals and storybook
09:34:51 <andythenorth> LordAro because the content API evolution is pretty much dead now
09:35:06 <andythenorth> ~everything is diverted to 'do it in GS'
09:35:07 <LordAro> (i also ask what the benefit of having 2 (separate) industry GRFs at once is, tbh)
09:35:09 <andythenorth> but GS is useless
09:35:20 <andythenorth> daylength -> 'fixed in GS'
09:35:25 <andythenorth> economy -> 'fixed in GS'
09:35:32 <nielsm> the issue is players/server admins that want feature X from one GS and feature Y from another GS, and don't have the programming skills to manually smash them together
09:35:33 <andythenorth> town growth -> 'fixed in GS'
09:35:48 <andythenorth> but when I proposed merging all the GS I got told that's stupid
09:35:56 <LordAro> i'm not sure anyone has claimed that daylength is fixed by GS
09:36:12 <andythenorth> there's a GS now that does most of what most daylength users want
09:36:26 <andythenorth> spec was extended recently for it
09:37:00 <andythenorth> but if we gave AIs access to GS API, problem automatically solved?
09:37:23 * andythenorth must eat breakfast :D
09:37:29 <LordAro> that's a rather large oversimplification
09:37:40 <andythenorth> they're the easiest to pick holes in :)
09:37:52 <LordAro> well we already give "AIs" access to the GS API
09:37:59 <LordAro> we call them GameScripts
09:38:27 <LordAro> if you want multiple things to have access to GS API, say that
09:38:34 <LordAro> conflating the two just confuses things
09:40:31 <LordAro> exposing the GS API to the admin port might make things a bit more interesting
09:40:39 <LordAro> no idea how that would work though
09:40:45 <andythenorth> the question 'how could the AI be allowed to cheat' is also really interesting
09:41:02 <LordAro> my answer to that is a flat "no", tbh
09:41:24 <andythenorth> well that shortens the discussion at least
09:41:42 <LordAro> AIs do not get access to anything that (noncheating) human players do
09:41:57 <andythenorth> so....GS servers, via admin port? o_O
09:42:13 <LordAro> people have always complained that the adminport is too limited
09:42:28 <andythenorth> it's a radical proposal
09:42:30 <LordAro> i'm not actually sure what it does, tbh
09:43:45 <andythenorth> so our imagination won't be limited by reality :P
09:43:52 <nielsm> you can get some basic statistics on the game, and send/receive small json(-ish?) datasets to the running GS
09:44:09 <nielsm> from what I've gathered
09:44:22 <nielsm> but yes "what can adminport do?" is one of those things where the documentation is terrible
09:44:55 <nielsm> the docs on the wiki basically says "you can send packets to the admin port!"
09:45:04 <nielsm> "and get packets in return!!"
09:45:51 <andythenorth> so in addition to concerns about squirrel execution time, we could also add network latency :D
09:46:32 <andythenorth> there is something really appealing about having the game controlled by an external process / server
09:46:37 <andythenorth> it's kind of mad
09:47:01 <nielsm> libopenttd that contains the full simulation engine
09:47:14 <nielsm> so you can build an AI that connects as a player
09:47:21 <nielsm> or a GS that connects as admin
09:47:27 <nielsm> and write it in whatever you want
09:48:03 <nielsm> and allow the adminport to accept arbitrary game command packets, as long as they can be executed as deity
09:49:49 <LordAro> yeah, but with no names or anything
09:49:53 <LordAro> just use the enum numbers :p
10:07:14 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd
10:22:13 *** Progman has joined #openttd
10:31:10 <FLHerne> LordAro: The benefit of multiple GSs in-game is to allow combining GSs that do orthogonal things
10:31:36 <FLHerne> (and thus allow GSs that do something interesting but limited in scope)
10:32:22 <FLHerne> Right now you can't use a goal script and also a script that builds roads between towns
10:32:44 <FLHerne> So someone made an AI that builds roads between towns instead, but then it runs out of money and people want it to cheat...
10:33:21 <FLHerne> I never really understand the objection
10:33:48 <FLHerne> If it's "players will combine things that conflict horribly and break the game"...we have grfs
10:34:22 <FLHerne> They can already do that
10:34:37 <FLHerne> They can break the GS, too
10:36:48 <andythenorth> it's nice to let different programmes write over the same memory? :)
10:39:40 <nielsm> well not strictly like that, but yeah multiple programs pulling the same objects in different directions
10:39:47 <nielsm> without any chance of cooperations
10:41:17 <andythenorth> but it's 'probably fine' right?
10:42:15 <LordAro> personally i think we should work to limit the ways players can break the game
10:49:26 <andythenorth> probably correct
10:49:32 <andythenorth> where's the sense of adventure though? :)
10:49:49 <andythenorth> newgrfs used to have to collaborate about vehicle IDs and crap
11:20:01 <andythenorth> I write variable names with very poor signal to noise ratio
11:20:08 <andythenorth> spritelayer_cargos_intermodal_container_cars
11:20:09 <andythenorth> spritelayer_cargos_vehicle_transporter_cars
11:20:20 <andythenorth> and if I don't, I get confused about what things are
11:20:42 <andythenorth> the ratio of information to noise there is probably 1:1 or less
11:25:38 * dP just found a class in my old code with methods kv, ks, kd, kl, bd, ed and el xD
11:27:58 <andythenorth> I don't think everyone reads the way I read
11:28:06 <andythenorth> my brain mostly parses the shape of the word
11:28:14 <andythenorth> I don't need to read the words usually
11:28:20 <LordAro> i don't think that's uncommon
11:28:35 <andythenorth> I have friends who definitely don't work that way
11:28:47 <andythenorth> it's one of the reasons that block caps isn't used on, .e.g road signs though
11:29:04 <LordAro> probably quite a high correlation with those that can "speed read"
11:29:07 <andythenorth> even though in pure legibility tests, some people do better with block caps letters
11:30:44 <andythenorth> I can almost scan read that
11:31:12 <andythenorth> that's nearly as fast as reading it not scrambled
11:31:20 * andythenorth saves that link:)
11:32:32 <dP> it's so meme it can be googled with just "can read"
11:33:14 <FLHerne> Some student emailed me a while ago to say he'd found a bug in my code, I'd written `wibbledmean(ltsum)` instead of `wibbledmean(ttsum)`
11:33:32 <FLHerne> I had to reply and say I had no idea what I was thinking when I wrote any of that, sorry :-(
11:34:00 <FLHerne> tbf, I was a teenager and even more clueless than now
11:37:38 <FLHerne> #1463112 Cat sitting on keyboard crashes lightdm -> marked as duplicate of 1538615: Cat causes login screen to hang.
11:38:02 <FLHerne> Cats are great fuzz testers
11:54:53 *** gooodger is now known as goodger
12:00:50 *** goodger has joined #openttd
12:05:04 *** gelignite has joined #openttd
12:11:50 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd
12:21:02 *** goodger has joined #openttd
12:33:52 <andythenorth> I am able to call modules that I haven't explicitly imported
12:33:55 <andythenorth> this is 'interesting'
12:42:08 <andythenorth> if I import a submodule, do I get the module in the namespace as a side effect?
12:47:59 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #8228: Fix: Thread unsafe use of NetworkAddress::GetAddressAsString https://git.io/JfFcC
12:51:36 * andythenorth leaves the python thing alone, it works, just don't like 'works by accident' :D
13:10:26 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd
13:33:54 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC
13:34:07 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd
13:44:13 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC
13:44:26 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd
13:49:44 *** arikover has joined #openttd
15:47:53 *** supermop_Home has joined #openttd
16:18:48 *** gelignite_ has joined #openttd
16:22:47 <dP> hm, "openttd train is lost" 25300 results on google, "openttd ship is lost" - 738000 xD
16:50:23 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd
16:55:23 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd
17:19:31 *** virtualrandomnumber has joined #openttd
17:26:49 *** virtualrandomnumber has quit IRC
17:33:14 <Eddi|zuHause> well, ships do get lost much easier than trains
17:33:37 <Eddi|zuHause> and that is despite the fact that there are usually more trains
17:36:32 *** Progman has joined #openttd
17:41:47 <frosch123> yeah, players should care more about their ships
17:42:10 <Wolf01> Buoys, buoys everywhere
17:42:45 <frosch123> losing a ship is like losing 1.8*10^9 €, and noone knows where they are
17:43:04 <Wolf01> Just shut down the transponder
17:51:23 <Eddi|zuHause> that's MH370, that's a plane... :p
18:16:57 <FLHerne> I bought 10 onion bagels for 78 pence :D
18:17:42 <FLHerne> Shutting down the transponder doesn't work anymore, they're visible from even civilian satellites
18:18:32 <FLHerne> There are community projects to identify and track boats that violate fishing restrictions and so forth
18:19:52 <Wolf01> <FLHerne> Shutting down the transponder doesn't work anymore, they're visible from even civilian satellites <- good luck finding a particular ship in the ocean
18:20:25 <FLHerne> Planet Labs etc. have 5m-resolution coverage multiple times a day now
18:20:58 <FLHerne> You never have to find a particular ship from nowhere, you find it within a few hours' sailing of where it was last time
18:21:28 <FLHerne> And the vast majority of ships do have transponders
18:22:58 <FLHerne> So the one you're looking for is something that image-recognition thinks is probably a ship, but doesn't correspond to any known ships
18:23:36 <FLHerne> And a top-down view of empty ocean is pretty favourable on the false-positives front
18:24:00 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 opened issue #8232: "Huge screenshot" warning incorrect for heightmap / minimap screenshots https://git.io/JfNuu
18:24:19 <FLHerne> Not many things in the ocean look much like a ship, except maybe some islands, but they don't move so you can just flag them once
18:24:51 <frosch123> what about all that plastic junk?
18:26:10 <FLHerne> Those don't really look like a ship at all?
18:35:35 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
20:41:21 *** Gustavo6046 has joined #openttd
21:11:03 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #8231: Fix #8230: Resolve ".." when opening files in .tar https://git.io/Jfb1Q
21:12:21 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8231: Fix #8230: Resolve ".." when opening files in .tar https://git.io/JfNwv
21:23:52 <frosch123> isn't that a security issue?
21:25:32 <frosch123> ah, it cannot leave the tar
21:31:44 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] aruscher commented on issue #8221: No error message subtitle for if no bridge types available for target length < max bridge length https://git.io/JfQrI
21:39:21 <andythenorth> vehicle transporters
21:39:28 <andythenorth> need randomised trucks / cars
21:39:34 <andythenorth> and need to change by game date
21:44:12 <frosch123> not sure how many pixels are affected by game date
21:44:20 <frosch123> a car is still pretty much a car
21:44:44 <frosch123> unless you want a horse cart transporter
21:45:27 <glx> frosch123: I made sure it can't
21:46:04 <frosch123> quite a lot of magic in that function
22:16:59 <Speeder_> the opengfx+ devs have an irc somewhere?
22:17:03 <Speeder_> or they hang out here?
22:18:19 <frosch123> there has been no activity in probably 5 years
22:18:42 <DorpsGek> LordAro: Don't ask to ask, just ask
22:50:13 *** lastmikoi_ has joined #openttd
22:51:00 *** lastmikoi_ is now known as lastmikoi
23:41:20 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd
continue to next day ⏵
