IRC Logs | #openttd | 2020-06-11

00:40:10 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz updated pull request #8214: WIP: Refactor gfx engine's dirty block system https://git.io/JfS3n

00:44:04 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz updated pull request #8214: WIP: Refactor gfx engine's dirty block system https://git.io/JfS3n

00:49:06 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz updated pull request #8214: WIP: Refactor gfx engine's dirty block system https://git.io/JfS3n

00:57:37 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz updated pull request #8214: WIP: Refactor gfx engine's dirty block system https://git.io/JfS3n

01:00:05 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8214: WIP: Refactor gfx engine's dirty block system https://git.io/JfSbo

01:48:04 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz updated pull request #8214: WIP: Refactor gfx engine's dirty block system https://git.io/JfS3n

01:56:31 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8214: WIP: Refactor gfx engine's dirty block system https://git.io/JfSAm

03:38:47 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8214: WIP: Refactor gfx engine's dirty block system https://git.io/JfSh3

05:03:22 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on issue #8167: No error message subtitle for if house can't be replaced while building industry https://git.io/JfVeI

05:22:50 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 opened issue #8215: Industry build cost does not take into account land clear costs https://git.io/Jf9vv

08:59:35 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #8215: Industry build cost does not take into account land clear costs https://git.io/Jf9vv

10:05:39 <Timberwolf> That industry terraforming cost thing could get a bit interesting if you take method:prospecting into account.

10:25:21 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on pull request #8214: WIP: Refactor gfx engine's dirty block system https://git.io/Jf9my

10:56:02 <andythenorth> Horse needs *even more* box van wagons

10:56:08 <andythenorth> Steeltown has lots of cargos for them

10:56:19 <andythenorth> I like to use a different wagon type for each cargo

11:40:09 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] auge8472 commented on issue #8215: Industry build cost does not take into account land clear costs https://git.io/Jf9vv

11:42:22 <Eddi|zuHause> one wagon to rule them all

11:43:49 <andythenorth> I've already provided that option :P

11:47:25 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #8215: Industry build cost does not take into account land clear costs https://git.io/Jf9vv

11:57:59 <Timberwolf> At some point I need to move Road Vehicles to using sprite composition so I can handle all these cargos without lumping everyone with a 200MB grf download.

12:06:50 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #8215: Industry build cost does not take into account land clear costs https://git.io/Jf9vv

12:23:54 <arikover> andythenorth: "Horse needs *even more* box van wagons" "I like to use a different wagon type for each cargo" <-- You mean specific box vans for specific Steeltown cargos? Would they look totally different depending on the cargo?

12:24:13 <andythenorth> I tried that, it's weird :)

12:26:13 <arikover> Are there other van types besides "normal box" and "sliding wall"?

12:27:03 <andythenorth> there's also 'roof + sides slide'

12:27:24 <andythenorth> I didn't do roof + sides slide

12:27:27 <Eddi|zuHause> historically, there's different liveries for company-owned wagons

12:27:47 <andythenorth> so one option is just a colour variant

12:31:17 <FLHerne> arikover: There are vans where the body slides longitudinally on springs

12:31:29 <FLHerne> To reduce impact forces when shunting

12:31:47 <FLHerne> And banana vans, with steam heating

12:32:18 <FLHerne> And of course now there are refrigerated vans

12:32:27 <Eddi|zuHause> a predecessor for modern refrigerated cars were "fish wagons" which had an ice storage

12:33:22 <FLHerne> And conflats, which look like old vans but are really containers on flat wagons

12:34:18 <andythenorth> conflats could be done as earlier gen intermodal

12:34:27 <andythenorth> currently it makes some fixed assumptions about ISO containers

12:34:32 <andythenorth> but that could be changed

12:36:31 <andythenorth> also the current vans switch from 33% width doors to 100% width doors

12:36:40 <andythenorth> but that could be split into two tech tree branches

12:38:57 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8214: WIP: Refactor gfx engine's dirty block system https://git.io/Jf9Zj

12:40:28 * andythenorth could graft on horse forever

12:45:25 <arikover> andythenorth: So would they be random variations of the same vehicle (ID), or totally different vehicles?

12:45:39 <andythenorth> random is 1CC / 2CC already

12:46:04 <FLHerne> andythenorth: You could just make them more random :p

12:46:28 <andythenorth> the implementation is less interesting than figuring out what changes in the sprite :)

13:03:28 <andythenorth> need more steel wagons too

13:04:06 <andythenorth> there are 7 iron / steel cargos in Steeltown

13:04:50 <FLHerne> Well, there's no shortage of those

13:06:42 <andythenorth> currently there's a plate wagon, a flat wagon, and a coil carrier

13:09:53 <andythenorth> oh there's the torpedo car also

13:41:55 <andythenorth> maybe I should finish FIRS 4 and leave Horse alone :P

13:42:20 <andythenorth> or I could do NRT Road Hog

13:45:50 <FLHerne> Finally ordered a new computer

13:46:24 <FLHerne> Now I'll have fewer excuses to feel unproductive :-/

13:47:16 <andythenorth> one excuse is always enough

13:47:54 <FLHerne> Yeah, but "my laptop is slower than a dead snail" is a pretty good excuse

13:48:13 <FLHerne> It's 10x slower than whatever your FIRS build-time numbers are from

13:49:15 <FLHerne> Building Qt is a "leave it overnight" job, which makes it very easy not to bother upgrading my apps :p

13:49:44 <arikover> andythenorth: Maybe you could make a poll on the forums "What should I do next? 1.FIRS4 2.UnsinkableSam 3.CHIPS 4. NRT RoadHog"

13:50:43 <andythenorth> my new laptop is slower than my old one :P

13:50:48 <andythenorth> for certain limited cases

13:53:52 <arikover> A propos ordering new computers: does anyone here know a good place to order computer with Linux-Compatible hardware?

13:57:06 <frosch123> https://www.tuxedocomputers.com/ <- i never go around to order there, but they have favourable reviews on heise and stuff

13:57:24 <frosch123> they run their own debian or ubuntu derivate

14:02:00 <andythenorth> eh I could split up flat and bolster wagon

14:16:39 <FLHerne> arikover: I just bought a lot of bits to put together, which is probably the cheapest option

14:16:56 <FLHerne> For somewhat high-end computers, anyway

14:42:51 <andythenorth> how much are computers now?

14:44:39 <FLHerne> A Pi 4 is a perfectly adequate desktop, and that's maybe £60 with a case and charger

14:44:49 <FLHerne> I just spent about £750 on parts for mine

14:44:50 <andythenorth> it's not bad when compared to e.g. Photoshop, which is £0.50/day

14:45:00 <FLHerne> Which I expect to last probably five years or so

14:45:10 <andythenorth> how much did you sell the old parts for?

14:45:59 <FLHerne> Thoroughly obsolete, so they'll stay on the shelf in case I need them

14:46:12 <FLHerne> I might have got £50 or something

14:46:26 <frosch123> andythenorth: i arrived at something like 0.40€/day

14:47:22 <andythenorth> we value computers in interesting ways

14:47:27 <frosch123> mainboard, cpu, ram are approaching 10 years

14:47:45 <andythenorth> I use mine for ~16 hours/day almost every day

14:48:16 <frosch123> oh, i also got lucky with the displays

14:48:18 <andythenorth> I have a transit van that will cost me £2500 / year just on purchase price, excluding tax, insurance, diesel

14:48:29 <andythenorth> the van is used average 2 hours most weeks

14:49:02 <frosch123> andythenorth: how much on coffee? :p

14:49:05 <andythenorth> just diesel costs almost as much as the computer :P

14:49:14 <andythenorth> coffee, £0.35 per pod, 5-6 pods a day

14:49:15 <FLHerne> That sounds like hiring a van might be easier

14:49:34 <andythenorth> hiring is all good until you have a sick kid etc

14:49:54 <andythenorth> I didn't own a proper vehicle until I was 40 years old

14:51:45 <supermop_Home> andythenorth ditch the pods? coffee $ can go pretty far on even very fancy coffee

14:52:12 <andythenorth> when I buy ground coffee in bags, I use too much

14:52:23 <andythenorth> even with a small cafetiere

14:52:53 <supermop_Home> acaia one has served me well over 5 years, no issues

14:53:09 <andythenorth> there was a lifecycle analysis of coffee pods vs grounds

14:53:26 <andythenorth> if the pods are actually recycled, they're the most ethical solution currently

14:53:45 <andythenorth> you can get precise dose beans machines though

14:54:22 <supermop_Home> i feel like that assumes the user is using their beans in a deliberatelt imprecise manner?

14:54:57 <andythenorth> precise dose beans machines ftw

14:55:07 <andythenorth> the one at work annoys me though

14:55:22 <supermop_Home> also the benefit of ground a few seconds before brewing does make a big difference vs ground a few months before

14:55:25 <andythenorth> whenever I want to use it, it's either out of water, beans, or it's full, or it's got a temporary fault

14:56:32 <supermop_Home> electric pour-over kettle, decent grinder, and a scale is probably cheaper and less bulky than that machine?

14:57:28 <andythenorth> also, being candid about it, I can afford the pods :P

14:58:22 * Timberwolf goes for the hand grinder and Moka Express option.

14:58:39 <frosch123> i have hand grinder and french press

14:59:18 <supermop_Home> i used hario hand grinder whole time i was in australia

14:59:22 <frosch123> so many methods of brewing coffee

14:59:24 <Timberwolf> I like using coffee making as an enforced break of 5 minutes, though, especially being wfh.

15:00:22 <supermop_Home> because at that time i felt there was no adequate affordable electric burr grinder, and i didn't want to pay for a 220v/50hz electric that i knew i would only use for a couple years

15:01:25 <supermop_Home> the Bodum burr grinder was cheap enough ( and stylish enough) in the US to overlook its shortcomings, but in autralia it's real cost was almost double

15:02:21 <supermop_Home> when my US bodum grinder broke, i bought a Baratza Encore and it has been amazing

15:03:18 <supermop_Home> well exceeded expectations for price and service, so much that i wish i'd bought the more expensive model as i know it'd be money well spent

15:03:22 <andythenorth> 1. hp / ton calculation displayed for vehicles (preferably based on capacity, not current load)

15:03:49 <andythenorth> 2. pop-open extended info window for vehicles (1 simple text region fed by a text cb)

15:04:13 <supermop_Home> andythenorth my pony wish is a Mahlkonig EK43 (short) and a LaMarzocco GS3 or Linea Mini

15:06:24 <frosch123> andythenorth: if the unit wouldn't be so silly, i would prefer a "time till max speed on flat track at full load" stat in vehicle details

15:06:35 <frosch123> but "5 days" sounds so stupid :p

15:07:19 <Timberwolf> I had a hire car from a garage once where that would have sounded about right.

15:07:54 <andythenorth> frosch123 acceleration time

15:08:06 <andythenorth> it's exactly equivalent to 0-60mph figure used to sell cars

15:08:38 <andythenorth> the best ones, you could change the gear ratios

15:08:40 <supermop_Home> frosch123 we could just name that as a new unit that means (openTTD units speed / openTTD Days)

15:08:53 <arikover> andythenorth: I also liked RRTy2's table MaxSpeed(NrOfCars,Grade)

15:09:13 <supermop_Home> "this train has 43 kiloFrosches"

15:09:16 <andythenorth> so real life railways have 2 metrics afaict

15:09:46 <andythenorth> drag freight has 'ruling grade', i.e what's the steepest grade this train will actually keep moving over

15:10:00 <andythenorth> but usually seems to be expressed as HP/ton, and there is a required HP/ton for any route

15:10:25 <andythenorth> the other key metric seems to be around how fast a train will regain line speed after stopping

15:10:35 <andythenorth> this is important for pax trains with frequent stops

15:11:24 <andythenorth> we don't can't probably shouldn't simulate the second metric

15:11:41 <andythenorth> acceleration rate requires some value for torque, which we don't have in the physics

15:12:41 <andythenorth> the gameplay benefit is negligible, but in theory high-speed trains often accelerate relatively slowly compared to e.g. commuter trains

15:18:34 <supermop_Home> it certainly shows up in game at times, as i find one ends up having to make absurd tight headways on commuter/local lines often

15:19:07 <supermop_Home> in that case its more about 'how fast can this 5 tile train clear this 5 tile station'

15:21:38 <supermop_Home> if the dwell time is 4-6 days (frequent with horse) and the headway 10 days (also often needed to keep up with demand) there is a real risk that many trains will just barely clear that bit of station when the next arrives

15:22:14 <supermop_Home> and 10 days is not even particularly frequent...

15:30:27 <andythenorth> I work around it by making the EMUs relatively high powered

15:39:14 <supermop_Home> yeah - i use mus for most everything

15:39:26 <supermop_Home> though so do train operators

15:51:36 <andythenorth> I have low confidence that we could introduce a new transport type :D

15:52:21 <andythenorth> although it would be the most lolz change we could make to ottd now

15:53:26 <supermop_Home> especially as it mostly just replicates the effect of a large station spread

15:53:47 <glx> andythenorth: belts as a road type ;)

15:54:12 <supermop_Home> with the one unique use of 'gradually distribute a large bulk delivery overtime'

15:54:24 <supermop_Home> basically doing the work of an industry for it

15:55:42 <supermop_Home> the other prototypical case of get this raw material from the its awkward location down to the port /station isn't really a proble

15:55:58 <supermop_Home> but i still dream of log flumes

15:58:07 <supermop_Home> "Would you like a year's exclusive use of this log to test it?"

15:58:53 <_dp_> rvs are kind of filling the role of super close range transportation atm, and sometimes ships

15:59:04 <_dp_> belts mb a nice alternative I guess if done right

15:59:33 <nielsm> belts and pipes are basically the same too

15:59:54 <_dp_> nielsm, not if we're talking realism

16:00:21 <supermop_Home> _dp_ there are only a few areas that _need_ belts/pipes, but i think they are attractive as an 'eyecandy that actually has a purpose'

16:01:04 <_dp_> supermop_Home, yeah, just carefult not to make "eyecandy that breaks the game"

16:01:18 <supermop_Home> nielsm i could see a belt as a 'pipetype'

16:04:25 <_dp_> it's all nice but how about fixing ships first :p

16:04:27 <supermop_Home> something that has a high per tile cost to build and maintain,

16:05:14 <supermop_Home> _dp_ what is wrong with ships?

16:07:09 <supermop_Home> ships with multiple holds would be nice

16:10:18 <nielsm> and it seems YAPF for ships still has some kind of distance limit where it will just go in a straight line towards toe destination, and eventually find itself continually bumping into a corner

16:15:12 <milek7> powerlines/pipe shouldn't have 'vehicles' at all

16:17:12 <_dp_> cargopackets moving by themselves? xD

16:17:51 <supermop_Home> though i'm not sure what powerlines would do

16:18:01 <_dp_> also would probably go well with adding routes to ui instead of shared orders

16:20:32 <supermop_Home> power boosting production or town growth could just be a 'is there an active powerplant within x tiles" or even just 'does the map produce enough power globally'?

16:20:35 <milek7> it should probably build 'network map', and distribute production immediately

16:22:01 <supermop_Home> not entirely convinced that building powerlines makes sense for a transport game, or even that it is fun....

16:22:28 <andythenorth> the unit transport type would move cargo from tile to tile at a rate

16:22:30 <_dp_> it would be a curious addition if electric engines actually consumed energy

16:22:48 <nielsm> powerlines should perhaps be something that exists and you need to build around

16:22:50 <supermop_Home> it might be interesting to be similar to transmitters

16:22:59 <nielsm> (indestructible like transmitters and lighthouses)

16:23:02 <andythenorth> is it like the rivers I always demolish?

16:23:15 <andythenorth> these days I always play with magic bulldozer

16:23:30 <supermop_Home> yeah - as objects or a 'field' for power plants / substations

16:23:55 <milek7> do these ideas slowly turning into simcity? ;d

16:24:18 <Eddi|zuHause> we used to have a rejection reason "this is not sim city"

16:25:43 <supermop_Home> _dp_ what if vehicles have fuel cost, as a portion of the running costs

16:25:47 <Timberwolf> Powerlines, belts, "biter attack" disaster type... :p

16:26:28 <_dp_> supermop_Home, you mean supplying fuel removes that cost?

16:26:36 <supermop_Home> and over time the 'fuel cost' variable changes differently for steam/diesel/electric

16:27:15 <supermop_Home> and perhaps is further changed by some commodity pricing

16:27:24 <_dp_> supermop_Home, you need an economy for that to work :p

16:28:20 <supermop_Home> _dp_ it could be pretty simple, just "is there an active powerplant?"

16:28:33 <nielsm> just a static/randomized curve of fuel prices for the game

16:28:45 <_dp_> currently running costs don't do anything good imo

16:29:01 <_dp_> either you play for money and they're irrelevant or you play for fun and they kill you

16:29:48 <supermop_Home> just something like what is cheap in 1890 is expensive in 1980 and vis versa

16:31:05 <supermop_Home> and there is a little bonus if power plants are productive -

16:31:33 <supermop_Home> so that for some games it will make sense to electrify, and for some it will not

16:34:07 <andythenorth> consistently they've had to come down in my vehicle grfs

16:34:29 <andythenorth> the lolz is that FIRS has had to widely space cargo payment rates

16:34:35 <andythenorth> so some Horse trains now make insane profit

16:35:36 <nielsm> also variable cargo payment rates?

16:36:42 <nielsm> for those it might actually make sense to tie it to total amount transported in the game

16:36:42 <andythenorth> then there could be a supply and demand economy

16:36:42 <_dp_> imo economy in openttd is so broken that I'd rather see more stuff to be removed from it than added

16:37:37 <andythenorth> there are multiple ways this can all be done

16:37:37 <andythenorth> but it's all blocked by GS

16:37:37 <andythenorth> GS makes it all impossible

16:37:37 <andythenorth> oh I said I'd get kicked if I complained about GS again :)

16:37:37 <nielsm> also to encourage players to spread across multiple cargo types

16:37:46 <andythenorth> _dp_ can complain about it instead

16:37:46 <andythenorth> maybe I can do it in newgrf already

16:37:56 <andythenorth> all this dumb 'balancing' crap

16:38:03 <andythenorth> as though it could ever be balanced

16:38:28 <andythenorth> hmm where's the newgrf cb for custom cargo payment

16:39:57 <andythenorth> wonder what else it has in scope

16:40:16 <andythenorth> I wanted to store a price factor in every tile, or station, or town

16:40:37 <andythenorth> I also wanted the grfid and vehicle ID that the cargo was unloaded from

16:42:34 * andythenorth DOES NOT NEED TO DO THIS AT ALL :)

16:44:44 <_dp_> it can be balanced but for each game mode separately, so totally shouldn't be a core game goal imo

16:45:59 <_dp_> my wishes for core game are 1) stability 2) better ui 3) configurability 4) extensibility xD

16:48:30 <_dp_> eh, could've changed 2) to usability for full-bility combo xD

16:51:42 <andythenorth> my goal is another level of timetabling

16:51:59 <andythenorth> maybe programmable signals that refit the trains passing by

16:55:19 <nielsm> multiomodal transport where you move entire containers of stuff

16:55:38 <nielsm> and can follow the same container with same design on a ship, train, and truck

16:58:03 <andythenorth> peter started a patch for it

17:04:44 <nielsm> yeah and simutrans has power lines

17:04:59 <arikover> _dp_: I remember I watched an online OTTD-Game with a "zombie apocalypse" GS running. Really funny!

17:05:00 <nielsm> and both of those are different, but inspired-by games

17:12:17 <supermop_Home> nielsm how about i can follow a pallet from container to container and a box from pallet to pallet

17:12:34 <nielsm> now you're thinking with crates!

17:13:00 <nielsm> move ur cargo while u move ur cargo

17:13:17 <supermop_Home> put coal in cardboard box -> fedex box to power plant

17:19:53 <arikover> Topic micromanagement: how about train shunting? This fork was funny: https://github.com/Palo123/OpenTTD-YPS

17:20:30 <_dp_> arikover, yeah, and I was the one who made it ;)

17:22:42 <supermop_Home> certainly made your capacity way lower

17:22:57 <supermop_Home> and encouraged you to just use MUs all the time

17:23:32 <supermop_Home> and it was too easy to leave wagons or trains with locomotive at wrong end stranded

17:23:52 <supermop_Home> and the only way to rescue them was to crash a train into them

17:24:52 <arikover> supermop_Home: and setting the orders was really boring.

17:25:32 <supermop_Home> milek7 they could, but you could get them stuck in weird ways

17:25:41 <arikover> milek7: yes they could. It was a nice feature. In fact, this feature alone was nice.

17:27:52 <supermop_Home> if a train was leading with a wagon forward and you broke up the train, it was possible to end up with the wagon with no HP as the 'train', and the locomotive as just abandoned wagons with no number or ordersen

17:28:23 <supermop_Home> then the 'train' could never move, nor could another train come to couple to it

17:29:39 <supermop_Home> as arikover says, one of the nicest features was simply running a push-pull train

17:30:37 <nielsm> just having reversible trains would be nice

17:32:39 <arikover> Trains running in reverse were limited in speed (60km/h iirc).

17:33:37 <nielsm> give caboose cars a function (allows a shunting engineer to ride on the back at increased speeds, to instruct the loco driver)

17:34:01 <supermop_Home> the shunting patch worked great for push-pull, and for things like drop off wagons at a mine, run around and pick up some already full cars

17:34:36 <supermop_Home> nielsm you could do that, so song as the caboose, driving van, etc was coded as a locomotive

17:36:00 <supermop_Home> so trains with driving van or rear loco can reverse and proceed at full speed, but a train without has to take the time to move locomotive to the other end of the train

17:36:32 <supermop_Home> so you had to allow space for head -shunts and sidings at your stations

17:36:39 <supermop_Home> it was very fun to watch

17:38:37 <supermop_Home> but i found i often ended up just building balloon loops or top-and-tailing all my freights to save time and/or space

17:39:33 <arikover> and the order management was really complicated.

17:41:02 <supermop_Home> due to tt's weird scale its actually much more spatially efficient to build a loop for a ro-ro station than the sidings (with junctions and signals) for a simple end of line shunting set-up

17:41:15 <nielsm> the transport model of transport tycoon is totally broken compared to reality and trying to impose shunting on it just causes it to make even less sense

17:41:36 <supermop_Home> indeed - it was just nice to watch the trains moving back and forth

17:42:02 <nielsm> yeah, a station manager simulator/puzzle can be fun

17:42:11 <nielsm> (I just did a bunch of shunting jobs in derail valley myself)

17:42:43 <nielsm> as is the logistics of making sure the right empty cars are at the right station at the right time

17:43:21 <supermop_Home> also in openttd the relative cost of a locomotive is low compared to tracks, wagons, and the cost of time

17:43:31 <nielsm> I'm sure zachtronics could make a programming game out of it :)

17:44:45 <arikover> supermop_Home: unless you use the daylength patch.

17:45:44 <nielsm> but really, I think 95% of the fun could be had in ottd with two features: trains that can run in reverse, if they have a compatible cab at the back end. and an option to disable magical reversing.

17:46:16 <supermop_Home> nielsm yes, that fun gem in the patch

17:46:20 <nielsm> and maybe add large depots as a feature, which could double as magical shunting yards

17:46:26 <supermop_Home> and that part worked well

17:47:06 <supermop_Home> really it should have been split out as a separate patch to start with

17:47:23 <arikover> "Train can drive in reverse at low speed unless there is a proper driving cab" and "reversing at stations is possible but takes more time"

17:48:10 <supermop_Home> yes, a time penalty to magic reverse is probably a good idea, incase a single ended train gets lost and stuck at some dead end

17:48:37 <nielsm> hmm, have stations where every second platform is replaced with a shunting track, you would never see anything actually running on those but it would speed up moving the loco to the other end for trains stopped in adjacent tracks

17:49:35 <arikover> supermop_Home: and it rewards the player that uses driving cabs

17:49:43 <supermop_Home> the other thing that the patch wasn't ever able to accomplish was splitting up EMUs at a station

17:49:50 <andythenorth> but not the player that uses railcar trailers :P

17:50:16 <supermop_Home> andythenorth just keep the trailers in the middle of consist

17:50:25 <supermop_Home> imagine that they don't have cabs

17:50:34 <arikover> except if railcar trailers can have properties "isDrivingCab: True"

17:50:38 <supermop_Home> A car vs B car on a subway train

17:51:26 <nielsm> arikover: actually should have flags for "cab at first end, cab at second end"

17:52:25 <supermop_Home> the EMU thing cant really be solved by the patch's approach to shunting - the left behind unit were essentially 'birthed' as a new train with no orders, and no history

17:53:08 * andythenorth must design some wagons then

17:53:15 <supermop_Home> rather the patch would have needed 'consists', which can have orders, and which can join together into one train

17:54:08 <supermop_Home> lots of rabbit holes to get lost in - which is why separating out the 'train drives in reverse' part as a separate patch might be more helpful

17:54:28 <arikover> an eyecandy way to make "mine shunting" would be to make the engine invisible while loading.

17:54:41 <supermop_Home> that is easier to define the goals of, and to plan for what siuations might arise

17:55:46 <arikover> ...and the when loading is complete *poof* the engine pops up. Meh.

17:56:36 <nielsm> yeah first thing would be to look at how actual production timetables (?) are made

17:57:12 <nielsm> it takes a bit getting used to, but SimSig can (obviously) do all the shunting stuff with splitting and merging trains, and having trains with and without power

17:57:30 <nielsm> it's just an entirely different thing too

18:33:42 <supermop_Home> no Z scale Narita Express that i can fine

18:34:36 <supermop_Home> i wonder.. how insane would trying to be a Z scale monorail be...

18:35:04 <supermop_Home> being a z scale monorail probably would be more insane

18:38:08 <supermop_Home> i imagine you'd essentially put a T scale engine inside the bodyshell

18:49:34 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #8204: cmake: make install DESTDIR="something" ignores GLOBAL_DIR option https://git.io/JfM9j

18:52:04 <andythenorth> what if *all* construction costs included the cost of clearing the land :P

18:59:17 <nielsm> actually, stuff like farmland, rough land, ...

18:59:31 <nielsm> or maybe just make the cost of clearing grass zero

19:00:36 <Speeder_> is it possible using GS to define production of a single industry?

19:00:52 <Speeder_> for example define that a certain industry should have 10x or 100x default production

19:11:01 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #8215: Industry build cost does not take into account land clear costs https://git.io/Jf9vv

19:14:19 <andythenorth> Speeder_ top tip, if you're question starts 'it is possible using GS..."

19:14:30 <andythenorth> and the end is "[anything to do with newgrf]"

19:15:26 <frosch123> Speeder_: gs are mostly about adding some type of scoring. little about changing the mechanics

19:15:46 <andythenorth> they can't change the game economy

19:16:53 <_dp_> like there is shared road payment gs that works sometimes

19:16:58 <andythenorth> can't change cargo payment

19:17:02 <andythenorth> can't change industry production

19:17:13 <andythenorth> can't reliably build types of industry

19:17:24 <milek7> you could calculate cargo payment yourself and extra money to the player, no? :D

19:17:24 <andythenorth> can't control town growth

19:17:41 <andythenorth> ha is there a magic bulldozer option? :D

19:17:43 <_dp_> can build houses, just not in exact location :p

19:18:01 <_dp_> andythenorth, since recently deity can destroy industries

19:19:37 <andythenorth> I'm kinda just complaining for effect

19:19:56 <andythenorth> TL;DR GS is great for Silicon Valley or NCG or town growth scripts

19:20:17 <andythenorth> if I could actually write GS I'd like it more

19:21:34 <andythenorth> I do have like 25 commits on Busy Bee GS

19:21:53 <andythenorth> but most of those were followed by something like "Fix: (andy broke stuff) - Alberth"

19:25:40 <andythenorth> I would like to fork Silicon Valley though :P

19:27:21 <andythenorth> hmm can GS enumerate the active newgrfs?

19:27:58 <andythenorth> could I use a non-buildable industry as a key?

19:28:25 <andythenorth> 16 in, 16 out cargos, I could encode that 'this is FIRS, version x.y.z, economy foo'

19:29:21 <andythenorth> maybe just the available industry types is enough of a unique fingerprint?

19:31:14 <_dp_> and wasn't it like a design decision to hide newgrf info?

19:31:21 <_dp_> a stupid one if you ask me though

19:31:40 <andythenorth> I don't think there were any design decisions for GS?

19:32:01 <andythenorth> as I understand it, it was just an extension of NoAI?

19:32:42 <andythenorth> if it had waited to figure out newgrf compatibility it would never be done

19:32:53 <andythenorth> as nobody here has ever proposed any workable solution to that

19:34:26 <andythenorth> should it be one GS per FIRS economy, or just one GS, and some auto-detection crap?

19:35:17 <andythenorth> I think the most important thing is to have a GS name

19:35:19 <frosch123> and i am sure you would use the same firs templating

19:35:25 <andythenorth> then figure out what it actually should do

19:36:32 <_dp_> if it's for firs it should probably iclude "firs" in name :p

19:36:47 <andythenorth> but it makes FIRS problem even worse

19:37:05 <andythenorth> already there are forums and redditors who get FIRS docks or FIRS vehicles or FIRS objects grfs

19:37:11 <andythenorth> reasonable mistake to make

19:37:26 <frosch123> andythenorth: we should rebrand "newgrf" to "firs"

19:37:57 <andythenorth> FIRS Unsinkable Iron Hog Bee Valley

19:38:40 <frosch123> teach the player how to play firs correctly

19:38:53 <frosch123> i am sure there is only one way to play it correctly

19:39:08 <andythenorth> apparently you have to setup precise timetables

19:39:15 <andythenorth> so FIRS can only be played with JGR

19:39:21 <andythenorth> otherwise industries don't produce anything

19:39:38 <andythenorth> anyway, if I stop being a dick....in FIRS Steeltown, I want to get a little medal for supplying Builders Yard and Vehicle Distributor industries with cargo

19:39:54 <andythenorth> maybe to about 5 of each, depending on map size

19:40:04 <andythenorth> ideally they'd be in the 5 largest towns on the map

19:40:13 <andythenorth> ideally the GS would ensure they exist

19:40:57 <andythenorth> unfortunately, for lolz the Builders Yard requires 4 different cargos :|

19:41:03 <andythenorth> which is horrible to put in a goal string

19:41:56 <andythenorth> "Supply at least 200t each of Cement, Pipe, Rebar, and Steel Sections to each builders yard in Fishytown, Dingville, Hillbottom, Spilsgate and Tinkletown"

19:42:23 <andythenorth> somewhat, it would be nice if an industry could indicate a satisfaction level, -16..16

19:42:47 <andythenorth> so GS can ignore internal details of industries

19:43:10 <andythenorth> but then again, then it can't show the required amounts in the goal

19:43:43 <andythenorth> other economies would have different kinds of goal

19:43:51 <andythenorth> but in all cases, I want a little medal :P

19:49:02 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 opened issue #8216: It is possible to get a "Cost: £0" float from autoreplace. https://git.io/Jf9VX

19:57:35 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #8216: It is possible to get a "Cost: £0" float from autoreplace. https://git.io/Jf9VX

20:02:55 <_dp_> andythenorth, are you trying to discourage ppl from posting silly bugs by replying with silly comments? :p

20:04:38 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #8216: It is possible to get a "Cost: £0" float from autoreplace. https://git.io/Jf9VX

20:19:40 <andythenorth> although I wouldn't rule it out in future

20:20:05 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #8216: It is possible to get a "Cost: £0" float from autoreplace. https://git.io/Jf9VX

20:22:29 <_dp_> btw, it may be worth to only show thoose income/cost things in full details as I have a suspicion they add significant render time in some cases

20:23:31 <_dp_> mb just income and transfer though

20:23:51 <andythenorth> I swear I can correlate them with fps drops

20:24:10 <andythenorth> I used to have the identical issue in flash games

20:24:22 <andythenorth> rendering moving fonts over moving backgrounds seemed to suck

20:25:54 <_dp_> may not even be as much font rendering as background redraw

20:30:00 <_dp_> train heads redraw a lot in general for some reason

21:03:20 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Nik-mmzd commented on issue #8204: cmake: make install DESTDIR="something" ignores GLOBAL_DIR option https://git.io/JfM9j

21:21:26 <glx> ok let's see how to use GNUInstallDirs cmake module