IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2020-05-28
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00:03:25 <supermop_Home> the all black coveralls don't necessarily do much to dispel the notion that musk is some kind of supervillain
00:05:57 <Speeder_> towns can absorb all "goods" you give to them?
00:05:59 <Speeder_> or there are limits?
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00:33:42 <Speeder_> just found out I have to do some adjustement to my FIRS version O.o
00:33:49 <Speeder_> I will have to remove coal, entirely
00:51:57 <Wrench_In_The_Plan> Huh. That mention of violining earlier reminds me, I might wanna pick my own back up...
01:15:06 <Speeder_> FLHerne, Brazillian economy doesn't use rock coal
01:15:19 <Speeder_> although we do have it, it is extremely poor quality
01:15:25 <Speeder_> so there are only a few coal mines
01:15:39 <Speeder_> Brazillian steel is made with imported coal
01:15:56 <Speeder_> and thermal powerplants use diesel and other petroleum fuels
01:33:52 <Speeder_> what the function "rawin" does on GS?
02:37:05 <Eddi|zuHause> Speeder_: so add coal as an imported good from a port?
02:37:56 <Speeder_> Eddi|zuHause, I was considering doing that but... Brazil use diesel instead on powerplants, so if I adjust powerplants for example coal from port would end being kinda useless.
02:37:59 <Speeder_> But I might add coal to port anyway.
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05:20:14 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz opened pull request #8174: Cleanup: Correct typographic errors in code comments. https://git.io/JfoJd
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06:52:09 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8008: Feature: Double-click to rename vehicle https://git.io/JfoTQ
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07:18:56 <Speeder_> can scripts mess with the price of vehicles?
07:33:45 <Speeder_> can scripts trigger recession?
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09:13:23 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth approved pull request #8174: Cleanup: Correct typographic errors in code comments. https://git.io/JfoL6
09:24:57 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] kawayanslayer commented on pull request #8174: Cleanup: Correct typographic errors in code comments. https://git.io/JfoLA
09:26:33 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8174: Cleanup: Correct typographic errors in code comments. https://git.io/JfoLp
09:26:45 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #8174: Cleanup: Correct typographic errors in code comments. https://git.io/JfoJd
09:32:40 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] kawayanslayer commented on pull request #8174: Cleanup: Correct typographic errors in code comments. https://git.io/Jfotk
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12:40:12 <Gadg8eer> Is there a way to contact Michael Blunck? I need to ask a question about coding bridges in m4nfo.
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13:09:53 <Gadg8eer> I already sent him a PM like a month ago.
13:10:43 <Gadg8eer> Okay, actually, after double-checking...
13:10:59 <Gadg8eer> The message was sent about 2 weeks ago.
13:12:11 <Gadg8eer> It doesn't say when he was last online, so I don't know if he's seen my message or not.
13:12:37 <LordAro> well that's all you can do
13:12:56 <LordAro> you can try sending another one, but if he's not seen the first...
13:14:23 <Gadg8eer> I have coded everything else I intend to use in my server. Without his help, I am literally a few bridges away from the perfect OpenTTD marathon game.
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13:15:32 <Gadg8eer> Is there anyone else that can help me code bridges?
13:15:45 <LordAro> if you post on the forum, someone might be able to
13:15:55 <LordAro> though i've no idea how many people actually use m4nfo
13:22:57 <andythenorth> I considered switching, but I don't think I'd get on with the author tbh
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13:49:31 <Eddi|zuHause> MN was active in the german forum the last few days, so he should still be around
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15:31:09 <supermop_Home> i didn't find his comment in the stations post particularly helpful or insightful
15:34:09 <supermop_Home> or really apropos of anything. It did seem to kill the thread though....
15:35:42 * andythenorth has sold a lot of model trains to a dealer
15:35:50 <andythenorth> and has spent 3 hours boxing them up so far :|
15:36:11 <supermop_Home> never should have taken them out of the boxes
15:36:57 <supermop_Home> or really just build a oo mainline to the dealer and drive the train there
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17:25:47 <Wrench_In_The_Plan> Looking at the wiki now
17:26:04 <Wrench_In_The_Plan> So the option to build a statue in a town isn't just for the sake of being vain?
17:26:17 <Wrench_In_The_Plan> The wiki says that it improves a stations' rating.
17:28:26 <FLHerne> A company HQ is mostly for vanity, though :P
17:31:10 <supermop_Home> playing tto in 94, my neighbor told me that the HQ reduced maintenance - ie trains closer to the HQ had better reliability or recovered from breakdowns faster
17:31:25 <Eddi|zuHause> well, you can use company HQ to boost passenger production
17:31:41 <supermop_Home> this idea made so much sense to me that I was pretty disappointed to later learn it wasn't true
17:32:28 <supermop_Home> like Eddi|zuHause says, now i often am moving my hq to some backwater hamlet just to get the station to accept passengers
17:34:02 <supermop_Home> i think i last mentioned this at like 3 am 10 years ago when only Eddi|zuHause was humoring me, but i wished the statue was instead a 'local office' drawn in the style of the HQ, as this fits the function pretty well
17:34:30 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i definitely had that same thought
17:35:40 <supermop_Home> if the service at my local subway station is awful, the MTA building a statue of it's president out front would enrage me and make me less likely to use it
17:36:09 <supermop_Home> but a staffed office where i could lodge a complaint or get information would help
17:47:02 <Speeder_> GS can change what cargo an industry accepts?
17:48:00 <Speeder_> can newgrf do like the game already does with oilrigs and make an industry that at certain date forcibly replace another?
17:48:41 <andythenorth> you can forcibly close industries
17:48:55 <andythenorth> and you can restrict dates industries are available
17:48:59 <Speeder_> andythenorth, can I do that with GS?
17:49:00 <andythenorth> only GS can forcibly build
17:49:05 <andythenorth> and only newgrf can control the industry
17:49:07 <Speeder_> forcibly close t hat is
17:49:16 <andythenorth> GS cannot forcibly close
17:49:27 <andythenorth> also GS and newgrf cannot communicate
17:49:46 <Speeder_> lack of communication is not an issue, since it would be date based
17:49:56 <andythenorth> should be fine then
17:50:07 <andythenorth> newgrf closes industries from 19xx
17:50:13 <andythenorth> GS starts building them
17:50:13 <Speeder_> andythenorth, any idea how hard would be to update my FIRS 3 code to use 16-input limit?
17:50:18 <Speeder_> also any new art on FIRS 4?
17:50:21 <andythenorth> that would be FIRS 4 code
17:50:37 <andythenorth> yes, there's new art in FIRS 4
17:50:39 <Speeder_> FIRS4 you changed a lot of other things no?
17:51:42 <andythenorth> the biggest change is to work with updated newgrf spec for 16 cargos
17:52:04 <Speeder_> I am worried switching to FIRS4 entirely will also get me those bugs you mentioned
17:52:13 <andythenorth> it's an awkward time :)
17:52:20 <andythenorth> FIRS 4 is not finished, FIRS 3 is not up to date :)
17:52:23 <andythenorth> stuff and things
17:52:56 <Speeder_> my main issue now is that to do what I want with FIRS3 I need even more ports and farms :/
17:53:43 <Speeder_> andythenorth, by the way, I removed passenger generation from Hotels, it was breaking town growth GSes that check amount of passengers transported
17:54:07 <Speeder_> because hotels could generate passenger far in excess of the towns population, making the percentage of passengers impossible to attain
17:54:43 <andythenorth> this is a thing :)
17:55:36 <Speeder_> andythenorth, it was wobblign the entire game though. making everything skewed. wasn't fun.
17:56:14 <Speeder_> I wish there was a way to newgrf change what something makes based on date
17:56:21 <Speeder_> so hte hotel could increase production as date advances
17:56:31 <Speeder_> and ports would be able to change what they produce based on date too
17:57:43 <Speeder_> can you change CURRENCY with GS?
17:57:58 <Speeder_> for example Brazil used pounds early on
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17:59:37 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think so
18:00:13 <Speeder_> portugal had, actually, still has, is the longest running alliance in the world, an agreement with England. Brazil during 1700s was allowed to trade with both Portugal and England, and Brazil kept trading with England for a while (for example our major train stations were all built by english companies using english steel... yes they are old, and photos of our train stations look exactly like photos of london stations, quite
18:00:14 <Speeder_> funny), and BRL was introduced only in 1994
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18:01:16 <glx> currency is just a user setting
18:01:39 <glx> internally everything is in GBP anyway
18:02:52 <Speeder_> glx, I know, was wondering if GS is allowed to change it
18:03:06 <andythenorth> hotel production can easily change by date
18:03:32 <glx> GS don't change visual only settings
18:04:20 <Speeder_> andythenorth, on FIRS3 ?
18:04:26 <Speeder_> or need the newest nml?
18:05:27 <glx> hmm we could release 0.5.3 with 0.4 compatibility
18:07:00 <Speeder_> glx, that would make me happy, specially if it allows partial move into 16 cargo
18:07:14 <andythenorth> Speeder_ any FIRS can do production by date, you'd have to write code for it
18:07:29 <Speeder_> andythenorth, can you point me in the nml docs to what I need to mess with?
18:08:18 <Speeder_> can produce query the date?
18:08:36 <Speeder_> can you change cargo types on the fly?
18:08:57 <glx> you can't change cargo type
18:09:31 <nielsm> an industry has to decide which cargo types it can consume and which it can produce at latest when it gets built
18:10:45 <glx> but then it can produce or not any cargo in the defined list
18:11:09 <Speeder_> glx, so only way to do what I want is if new nml supported my old FIRS3 code
18:11:23 <Speeder_> then I would put all cargos I want over the years, and change the multipliers
18:11:28 <Speeder_> setting some to 0 when I don't want them
18:14:45 <Eddi|zuHause> that's probably easier with the new syntax
18:15:40 <Speeder_> Eddi|zuHause, it is FIRS4 as andy said, has bugs, I don't want to use it. but it sounds like making FIRS3 support new nml would take ludicrous amounts of work, and probably make those bugs show up anyay
18:16:53 <Speeder_> if I knew more about how to make the sprites work with newest nml I wouldn't mind, but right now I don't know, so for example although FIRS did had bauxite mine officially in the past, I am reusing the clay mine, because if I restored the bauxite mine graphics I wouldn't know how to code the sprite code for NML 4.5
18:17:18 <glx> nml now support both old and new syntaxes, but warns everytime old syntax is seen
18:18:18 <Speeder_> glx, what you mean... "now" ?
18:19:21 <Speeder_> if I am done with current stuff I am doing before next release, I will then learn how to compile nml
18:21:35 <Speeder_> I am learning details of Brazil economy now, my plan is use GS to open industries at correct date
18:21:49 <Speeder_> an in correct locations
18:22:22 <Speeder_> learned some stuff I didn't knew, like the fact Brazil never had heavy coal mining, always relied on imports, and powerplants here for this reason are NOT coal-powered, they are DIESEL powered O.o
18:22:32 <Speeder_> never knew diesel commercial powerplants existed in first place
18:22:43 <Speeder_> always thought this was only for smaller business, homes and hospitals
18:25:18 <andythenorth> the FIRS 4 bugs aren't extensive, they're just not diagnosed yet
18:25:29 <andythenorth> you could probably integrate whatever fixes them later
18:25:45 <andythenorth> the bigger problem is that industry closure is missing and needs rewritten
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18:29:40 <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't heard specifically of Diesel power plants, just more generic oil
18:30:44 <Eddi|zuHause> usually for that kind of large devices you'd use the leftover stuff that you filtered the diesel out from
18:31:17 <Speeder_> Eddi|zuHause, might be too. here in Brazil diesel is banned in cars though. you are only allowed to use diesel in commercial enterprise.
18:31:23 <Speeder_> (ie: tractors, generators, trucks, etc...)
18:32:11 <Speeder_> SUVs, off-road vehicles, etc... for personal use, are all gasoline.
18:32:58 <Eddi|zuHause> well, over here, taxes are designed in a way that diesel cars only are worth it if you travel large distances per year
18:35:08 <glx> here taxes are CO2 based, so for now diesel is still less taxed
18:35:43 <Eddi|zuHause> the diesel itself is less taxed, but the diesel cars are more taxed
18:36:21 <Eddi|zuHause> so the more you drive, the less impact the car taxes have
18:36:44 <glx> a recent gasoline car can be more taxed than diesel because it generates more CO2
18:36:48 <Speeder_> heh, just found out Brazillian landowners pushed for slavery end... becuase paying wages to people was cheaper than giving food to people. you could pay them a pittance and let them get themselves screwed finding food and housing. O.o
18:37:25 <Eddi|zuHause> diesel cars also have a heavy stand currently because of the scandal about cheating emissions on the test bench
18:37:51 <Eddi|zuHause> and lots of older diesel cars are banned in cities
18:38:15 <Eddi|zuHause> because of air quality restrictions
18:38:59 <Speeder_> here the government official reason to ban diesel cars was pollution, but it is obvious this is not the real reason
18:39:23 <Speeder_> the real reason is that the government gives heavy subsidies to diesel itself, to create an economic stimulus for industries that need diesel (agriculture, transportation)
18:39:28 <glx> but most owners of very old diesel switched to less old diesel, because gasoline cars are rare on second hand market
18:39:48 <Speeder_> glx, where are you from, that gaosline cars are rare?
18:40:58 <glx> they are not so rare in use, but owners usually keep them longer
18:47:10 <andythenorth> so I think newgrf town control would be interesting
18:47:21 <andythenorth> but I don't know if it actually solves the problem I have in FIRS
18:47:27 * andythenorth looking for suggestions
18:47:57 <andythenorth> there are a set of cargos for which the destination is towns
18:48:10 <andythenorth> I almost never deliver them because they have no purpose
18:48:30 <andythenorth> AND they go to small 1 or 2 tile industries which are very hard to serve due to town layout
18:48:48 <andythenorth> additional factors
18:49:14 <andythenorth> * cdist gives no incentive to deliver them, and doesn't work so well with them
18:49:41 <andythenorth> * these cargos aren't used for any town effects
18:50:07 <Speeder_> andythenorth, what cargos are these?
18:50:22 <andythenorth> building materials, food, goods, vehicles, etc
18:53:45 <nielsm> I think what's needed is better control of what buildings appear in a town
18:54:24 <nielsm> right now there's two special rules (bits) for "is a church" and "is a stadium", and a town has at most one of each of those, I'm not sure if it tries to always have one though
18:55:00 <nielsm> a more flexible extension of that would be useful, like "should have one per every 500 pop in town" or such
18:55:28 <Speeder_> andythenorth, well, some GS do that
18:55:28 <nielsm> and some sectioning of towns into zones (maybe not as strict as simcity or transport fever zones)
18:55:40 <Speeder_> some GS in fact expects FIRS to be present, so they can control town growth using these cargos
18:55:55 <andythenorth> so the additional factor for me
18:56:02 <andythenorth> * I mostly turn town growth off
18:56:14 <andythenorth> towns that grow are toxic
18:56:21 <andythenorth> they just block space for routes
18:57:15 <andythenorth> I think more interesting might be getting cargo out for cargo in
18:57:47 <andythenorth> can newgrf houses change production?
18:57:59 <andythenorth> FIRS might have to take control of houses
19:03:54 <Speeder_> andythenorth, well... if you do that, leave that an option instead... I personally like making the towns grow
19:04:20 <andythenorth> FIRS can't control growth, only GS can do that
19:04:25 <andythenorth> I turn it off in player settings
19:04:26 <Speeder_> to me all the industry transpotation is pointless, if it is not messing wi th the population
19:04:35 <Speeder_> andythenorth, I mean, if FIRS take control of houses, make that optional
19:04:41 <Speeder_> not all players might want FIRS to mess with the houses
19:04:56 <Speeder_> or make that a separate newgrf entirely
19:05:06 <andythenorth> houses are broken with FIRS anyway, which is another reason
19:05:12 <andythenorth> I do wonder about merging all my grfs
19:05:17 <andythenorth> just have one grf
19:05:34 <andythenorth> it would simplify a lot of things
19:08:27 <Speeder_> andythenorth, what you mean houses are broken with FIRS?
19:08:47 <andythenorth> FIRS causes houses to accept weird cargos
19:08:58 <Speeder_> andythenorth, like what?
19:09:38 <Speeder_> I am using a newgrf that mess with houses... so I wonder if that is why I didn't see anythign weird FIRS related
19:11:10 <andythenorth> it might only break the baseset houses
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19:17:48 <andythenorth> supermop_Home yo, played any Horse ever? Got a question about railcars
19:25:16 <supermop_Home> andythenorth i use the railcars pretty much all the time
19:26:01 <andythenorth> building long railcars, the running costs bother me
19:26:22 <andythenorth> I tried to tune them so they're not OP in gameplay
19:26:37 <andythenorth> but a long consist of railcars seems expensive to run
19:26:54 <andythenorth> option (a): add unpowered trailer coaches, that work with the sprite magic to set cabs etc
19:27:19 <andythenorth> option (b) reduce run costs by x% for additional units after first one
19:27:35 <andythenorth> option (c) just further reduce run costs
19:28:25 <andythenorth> option (d) make pax coaches adapt to the graphics of the railcar (this would make some complex switches ridiculously insane)
19:28:26 <supermop_Home> andythenorth id prefer (a)
19:29:00 <andythenorth> I preferred (a) also, even though it messes up the buy menu more
19:29:04 <andythenorth> seems more natural
19:29:09 <supermop_Home> but the cost of a dmu consist is steep early in the game
19:29:29 <andythenorth> it's not intended
19:29:43 <supermop_Home> but i have no problem making a profit with long dmu rakes in a mature game
19:30:00 <andythenorth> but also the power gets a bit silly
19:30:11 <andythenorth> 4 tiles might be 2000hp+
19:30:39 <andythenorth> we need vehicle variants in buy menu :)
19:30:48 <supermop_Home> the total HP of a subway train is probably pretty high compared to a LIRR locomotive hauled train out to Montauk
19:31:03 <andythenorth> yes, that's valid in some cases
19:31:22 <andythenorth> if I do them as driving trailers, they could follow the railcar directly in the buy menu
19:31:31 <andythenorth> give them 50hp or something
19:31:39 <andythenorth> 'auxiliary engine for light and power'
19:31:57 <andythenorth> I think that's actually realism in some cases :P
19:33:36 <andythenorth> I think trying to adapt to normal pax coaches gets very messy in the calculation of which sprite to show
19:34:10 <supermop_Home> and there's just too many options
19:35:32 <supermop_Home> maybe the luxury car is the only case where you might want to mix it up, but i like keeping those separate as the province of special MUs and locomotives
19:35:50 <supermop_Home> one case would be the mail MUs
19:36:13 <supermop_Home> do you add another trailer for the Mail MUs?
19:45:33 <andythenorth> I'm already uncertain about whether to add 1 railcar trailer per generation (some complications) or 1 per railcar type (more buy menu)
19:46:08 <andythenorth> this would be a great case for 'variants' in the buy menu
19:46:19 <andythenorth> just add a lower cost, lower hp variant, on a + disclosure menu
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20:20:40 <nielsm> isn't it more like passenger cars used to have dynamos attached to one of the axles to provide light, effectively adding a light braking force to that axle
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20:23:47 <andythenorth> Pikka simulated something like that
20:23:55 <andythenorth> parasitic reduction of engine hp
20:25:12 <Eddi|zuHause> unless you're going for xUSSR ultra-realistic heating and powering methods, i wouldn't bother
20:25:50 <andythenorth> so shall we try patching for vehicle variants in buy menu?
20:25:57 <nielsm> the double decker passenger cars currently running on danish rails also have an air condition system that pulls so much power, that the weight of the cars is rated up (from 50 or 55 tons to 60 tons) to make up for the reduction in tractive power available to diesel-electric locos
20:26:04 <andythenorth> iirc, it's just one prop, setting a parent ID
20:26:20 <andythenorth> and a disclosure widget similar to the one used in vehicle refit menu
20:26:27 <nielsm> for the purpose of determining the timetable that is
20:27:58 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: spec-wise, you can probably get away with one prop, but feature-wise it gets more complicated
20:28:20 <andythenorth> the buy menu is simple, the auto-replace is not
20:28:32 <Eddi|zuHause> the buy menu is far from simple
20:29:00 <andythenorth> I thought that, but then I was told I was wrong
20:29:06 <andythenorth> I considered sorting and filtering
20:29:13 <andythenorth> but seems that's not a problem
20:30:01 <Eddi|zuHause> also, what about sanity checking? putting a diesel and electric version in the same group?
20:30:42 <andythenorth> one shows only in electric depots, one doesn't
20:31:17 <andythenorth> what about wagons trying to parent to engines?
20:31:56 <nielsm> should we change so depot buy lists always show all buyable vehicles, but those not available for the railtype of the depot are grayed out?
20:32:51 <andythenorth> I hate to say this, but 'setting'?
20:33:17 <nielsm> a better filtering UI for the buy menu is alwo on my wishlist
20:34:19 <nielsm> I'd love to make filter/sort conditions like order by power but hide all that cost over £30k
20:34:41 <andythenorth> do we have more UI space these days?
20:34:51 <andythenorth> optional horizontal filter stack
20:35:04 <nielsm> separate window popup?
20:35:25 <nielsm> horizontal extension pane is maybe better/more in line with the rest of the gui
20:35:28 <andythenorth> I would attach it like a drawer
20:37:04 <andythenorth> maybe buy menu should be hierarchical groups like station building UI and object UI?
20:37:05 <Eddi|zuHause> better visibility of new railtypes would help the "i can only buy diesel engines" faction
20:37:10 <andythenorth> only better layouts :P
20:38:38 <andythenorth> how does the tao go? flat is better than nested?
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20:59:34 <nielsm> perhaps have named groupings of vehicles? have some default groups that act by traction type (steam, diesel, electric, none) but allow newgrf vehicles to define their own, where a group is named by its string id and not a parent vehicle
21:00:41 <andythenorth> 'narrow gauge engines'
21:00:43 <supermop_Home> sometimes i convert my deport just for a quick check to see if there is a better enough electric locomotive than the diesel one i'm about to build
21:01:09 <Eddi|zuHause> people are already complaining about the horribly inconsistent groupings of stations and objects
21:01:15 <supermop_Home> to see if this next train purchase maybe justifies electrifying some track
21:01:21 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause are they? :)
21:01:57 <supermop_Home> but i feel like letting people see electric trains in a plain depot may lead to all sorts of confused reports
21:02:38 <supermop_Home> i don't think objects should go with stations
21:03:21 <supermop_Home> object is just a thing. just because someone draws an object to look like a station doesn't mean it makes more sense there than with the other thingd
21:03:22 <andythenorth> I find the same with ISR
21:03:31 <andythenorth> and I'm using a big object set and I can't find anything :)
21:03:34 <andythenorth> and the UI is weird
21:04:07 <supermop_Home> oof eddi my german is rusty
21:04:27 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_Home: this is not about mixing objects and stations. i meant each one individually
21:05:03 <supermop_Home> ooh i learns a new thing
21:05:32 <Eddi|zuHause> that's basically "IIRC"
21:05:36 <supermop_Home> sounds better tho
21:05:57 <supermop_Home> like you could maybe pronounce it
21:06:06 <supermop_Home> instead of eeerk
21:08:22 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_Home: the basic complaint is that in "best korean stations set" the "two-sided platforms" category contains matching buffer stops, but the "one-sided platforms" category doesn't, they're in a separate category
21:08:54 <supermop_Home> that's more the fault of the grf author than anything
21:09:44 <supermop_Home> isr is maybe a little too chopped up, but there is a consistent thinking to the categories at least
21:10:30 <supermop_Home> honestly i use chips a lot because otherwise ill get too distracted building the stations when i'm just trying to set up a route
21:10:44 <andythenorth> I was a big advocate of "we shouldn't do x because it will get complaints / bug reports"
21:10:48 <supermop_Home> can always come back and rebuild them later
21:11:06 <andythenorth> but complaints don't matter, the dev interaction with forums or reddit is minimal already
21:11:18 <andythenorth> and bug reports, we established this week we don't need to do anything about them at all
21:11:30 <andythenorth> which clarified my thinking
21:11:47 <andythenorth> I think we should try more things :P
21:11:59 <andythenorth> but not things that are crap :P
21:12:12 <supermop_Home> andy reaches the zen of the old timer who no longer gives a shit
21:12:13 <glx> I agree with supermop_Home on the "buffer" case, it's not our UI, it's the grf
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21:13:20 <andythenorth> content = automatically not a problem
21:13:43 <glx> category come from the grf
21:14:05 <andythenorth> I know an Apple analogy will fall flat here, but the Mac never banned Comic Sans
21:14:21 <andythenorth> even though Jobs was a typography freak and a tyrant
21:14:44 <andythenorth> software can't legislate for whether the user has taste
21:15:05 <glx> yes, but openttd just displays what the grf says
21:16:52 <andythenorth> doesn't that mean we agree? :)
21:18:34 <nielsm> you seem to be arguing for the same thing yes
21:19:55 <andythenorth> I had a bit of brain meltdown about bugs this week :P
21:20:09 <andythenorth> can't close them, and nobody will fix them :)
21:20:15 <andythenorth> so they just fill up github
21:20:36 <glx> a contributor may decide to take a look
21:20:46 <andythenorth> at work we have a way of segmenting off bugs that are valid, but no customer will encounter, or rarely
21:21:00 <andythenorth> if I close them, they actually tend to just get re-reported
21:21:17 <andythenorth> so we leave them open, and tagged in a way that's filtered out for doing actual work
21:22:25 <glx> yes, we take care of real bugs
21:22:40 <glx> other are just like feature requests
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21:24:40 <andythenorth> I'm kinda inclined to close bugs about trivial costs being wrong
21:24:51 <andythenorth> PRs would be fine, but just reporting it is pointless
21:25:06 <glx> but someone will report it again
21:25:11 <andythenorth> or like the dude who fixed 3 comment typos in a PR this morning, that's great
21:25:21 <andythenorth> but a bug report for that? waste of everyone's time
21:26:06 <andythenorth> well Samu finds similar cost issues, but makes PRs for them
21:26:18 <andythenorth> it's the difference between contributing, and making demands on others?
21:27:29 <glx> for me the headquarter move issue is valid but importance is very very low
21:27:36 <milek7> filling bug is making demand?
21:30:03 <andythenorth> yes, it requires reading etc
21:30:17 <andythenorth> I see so many openttd bugs, but I don't file them, it would be bad for the project
21:31:51 <andythenorth> maybe my attitude is outdated
21:32:11 <andythenorth> when frosch was the only maintainer, reporting yet another bug could have been the thing that caused frosch to quit
21:32:18 <andythenorth> and that would have been the end of OpenTTD
21:32:52 <Eddi|zuHause> not reporting bugs to keep the bug count low is a clear case of "wrong incentive"
21:33:17 <andythenorth> not overwhelming the maintainers is a very serious concern
21:33:54 <Eddi|zuHause> but it's the job of the maintainers to filter their workload
21:34:09 <glx> it's open source, mainteners usually can filter the importance of the bug
21:34:13 <andythenorth> every bug has to be read, thought about, possibly replicated, and at minimum replied to
21:34:21 <glx> and if it's minor it will stay open
21:35:18 <FLHerne> Hm, we could have a "trivial" label for issues?
21:35:23 <milek7> I don't think there's any obligation to reply at all
21:35:36 <andythenorth> of course there is :)
21:35:55 <glx> there is a "trivial" label, it's "good first issue" :)
21:36:10 <andythenorth> it's not a legal obligation, but not replying to bug reports is very poor
21:38:03 <FLHerne> Then andythenorth can add `-label:trivial` to his bookmarks, and be happy :D
21:38:03 <andythenorth> I could be persuaded otherwise, maybe my attitude is outdated
21:38:51 <FLHerne> Eh, I agree that not replying at all is bad
21:39:22 <Eddi|zuHause> you could go "meh, let other people reply"
21:39:25 <andythenorth> maybe open source has moved on?
21:39:32 <nielsm> "good for beginners" and "not important" are two different things imo
21:39:33 <andythenorth> maybe replying is no longer a thing?
21:39:43 <andythenorth> 'not important' is a value judgement
21:39:48 <nielsm> one is "easy to solve", the other is "low impact/not worth spending time on"
21:40:03 <andythenorth> there are many things around my house that *should* be fixed
21:40:15 <FLHerne> But a reply "We acknowledge this is a real issue, but it's clearly not critical. Maybe try fixing it yourself?" or so
21:40:24 <andythenorth> like every flake of paint, and every spot of damp?
21:40:30 <nielsm> yeah a canned reply like that can also work
21:40:39 <FLHerne> andythenorth: No, replying should definitely be a thing
21:40:41 <andythenorth> I have canned replies for feature requests
21:41:00 <FLHerne> Nothing more demotivating than an unanswered <whatever>
21:41:37 <andythenorth> unlikely to attract further contributions
21:41:41 <Eddi|zuHause> there's something worse: you find someone else's question about the same thing and that was also unanswered
21:41:42 <andythenorth> unless you are someone like a James
21:43:09 <andythenorth> remember known_bugs.txt? :)
21:44:15 <andythenorth> " If you do, do not act surprised, because we WILL flame you!" < that definitely seems outdated these days
21:44:54 <glx> it's like readme, nobody reads them anyway :)
21:45:13 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds like something TrueBrain would say :p
21:45:25 <andythenorth> we all used to say stuff like that no? :)
21:45:58 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think that statement would be true
21:46:13 <andythenorth> maybe Github issues are no longer really a 'to-do' list?
21:46:32 <andythenorth> nobody uses issue trackers as a way of planning actual work do they?
21:46:42 <andythenorth> we all have our own private little system, like trello or just notes
21:46:55 <nielsm> I think the issue list should contain all known, unfixed bugs
21:47:02 <nielsm> even if they are unlike to ever be fixed
21:47:13 <andythenorth> issue trackers are more like putting up a flag so other people can say '+1 I have this'
21:47:21 <andythenorth> any real work is either private, or in a PR
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21:48:40 <andythenorth> "won't fix" can be a valid label
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21:48:55 <andythenorth> then known-bugs.txt becomes a link to a filter
21:49:30 <milek7> FLHerne: personally I don't think canned response is somehow better than no response
21:50:17 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8174: Cleanup: Correct typographic errors in code comments. https://git.io/Jfooy
21:50:49 <andythenorth> not if you're the contributor
21:50:55 <andythenorth> I don't mean a bot
21:51:07 <andythenorth> the bot got deleted for some reason :P
21:51:28 <nielsm> even a canned response (triggered by a human) shows someone has looked at your report
21:51:48 <nielsm> even if the response is "looks like a bug, but don't expect a fix unless you make it yourself"
21:52:02 <andythenorth> many contributors start by finding and reporting bugs
21:52:10 <andythenorth> silence does not encourage them
22:07:29 <FLHerne> milek7: Yes, I don't mean a literally automated response
22:07:55 <FLHerne> Just a polite human one, even if it is "stock"
22:08:15 <FLHerne> andythenorth is good at writing those
22:08:29 <FLHerne> It's just that he tends to close the bug afterward :P
22:11:04 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: honestly, i think "the bot" did more harm than good
22:11:17 <Eddi|zuHause> in this project, things are not time-critical
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22:11:34 <Eddi|zuHause> it's done when it's done
22:34:40 <andythenorth> I think it's very dependent on the number of active reviewers
22:34:57 <andythenorth> when there are very few, the key thing above all is to avoid maintainer burnout
22:35:05 <andythenorth> when there are more...it's more laissez faire
22:38:54 <Speeder_> andythenorth, when you get back, and you tell me what the Iron Horse brake car does? is it useful or only for show?
22:39:14 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Yexo closed issue #7496: Crashes on start - malloc(): invalid next size (unsorted) https://git.io/fjqCX
22:39:14 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Yexo commented on issue #7496: Crashes on start - malloc(): invalid next size (unsorted) https://git.io/fjqCX
22:39:31 <andythenorth> Speeder_ only for show
22:46:09 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the usual solution for burnout is to recruit new people faster :p
22:57:39 <Speeder_> industries are composite of several buildings?
22:57:58 <Yexo> composite of several tiles
23:05:27 <nielsm> and industry has one or more tilelayouts, and a tilelayout consists of one or more industrytiles
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23:05:52 <nielsm> the same industrytile can be used many times in one layout, and across multiple layouts
23:06:08 <nielsm> I think the same industrytile can even be used in multiple different industries?
23:08:34 <Speeder_> alright, got in a catch22 situation here on my planning
23:08:45 <Speeder_> I think will be easier to solve it, by now returning to my editing of FIRS
23:08:58 <Speeder_> so... any link explaining how to easily compile NML on MSYS?
23:10:06 <nielsm> you don't even actually need to compile it
23:10:15 <nielsm> it can run as-is with just python
23:10:32 <nielsm> but it'll use a slower encoder for the graphics
23:10:51 <Speeder_> so how I install the trunk nml?
23:11:04 <nielsm> you download it and then run it
23:13:22 <FLHerne> Hm, nml in-browser with pypyjs?
23:13:45 <nielsm> upload a zip and get a compiled grf back?
23:14:03 <nielsm> not even uploading I guess
23:14:18 <FLHerne> It wouldn't work well with all these weird buildsystems though
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23:15:11 <FLHerne> By the time you've run Make or CPP or andy's python templating stack, nmlc is the easy bit :p
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23:15:48 <Yexo> to get it to work with the build stacks you need to first pack it up as an electron app again
23:16:53 <Speeder_> yay, seemly is compiling FIRS3 successfully
23:17:00 <Speeder_> glx, I think your patch from 3 days ago worked
23:32:03 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause how to recruit new people faster? :)
23:32:24 <Eddi|zuHause> how would i know? :p
23:48:43 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison opened pull request #8175: Fix #7970: Recursive faults in Windows post-crash due to event loop input https://git.io/JfoXU
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