IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2020-05-27
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00:02:21 <TrueBrain> hmm, the androidport doesn't really make changes in the network code; so that would mean there is a connection problem. I wouldn't be surprised if connecting to a random port towards AWS is blocked by some providers. Comes back to: we should port this to HTTPS :)
00:04:54 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
00:05:17 <milek7> you need to get access to bananas webinterface, and change it there
00:09:43 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: it sounds a lot like this other guy who claimed it was a DNS problem
00:12:52 <glx> mobile internet provided often bad things, more than non mobile ones
00:14:11 <glx> (insert "do" somewhere above)
00:37:13 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause : yup. I still suspect cgnat is to blame here
00:37:20 <TrueBrain> But hard to diagnose
00:39:00 <TrueBrain> We need a sane person who has this issue who is willing to spend some time on it :)
00:40:04 <Eddi|zuHause> where'd you expect to find a sane person? :p
00:41:10 <TrueBrain> But yeah, this requires capturing packets :)
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00:42:06 <glx> testing via a vpn could also be an option I guess
00:42:12 <Arthur_Wang> Hi. This is the OpenTTD IRC server, right?
00:42:58 <Arthur_Wang> How do I play the game with AI competitors?
00:43:05 *** Arthur_Wang is now known as Wrench_In_The_Plan
00:43:38 <glx> download AIs using in game content thing
00:43:51 <Wrench_In_The_Plan> I've already downloaded several
00:44:07 <Wrench_In_The_Plan> And set the "Maximum no. competitors" setting in the AI settings to their maximum of 14
00:44:54 <Wrench_In_The_Plan> But when I generated a new world using the "New Game" option, I was the only company.
00:45:33 <glx> you also may need to set starting date for each AI
00:45:59 <glx> but you can force start an AI in the console
00:47:03 <glx> "start_ai" is the command
00:48:12 <Wrench_In_The_Plan> For the Game Script, which one would you recommend, if any?
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00:55:37 <Wrench_In_The_Plan> Also, what world generation settings should I use if I want a mix between size and not taking too long to save?
01:37:54 <Wrench_In_The_Plan> Also, thanks. Managed to get AI competitors up and running.
01:47:00 <Speeder_> so I applied a patch here, but had to edit it a little to compile
01:47:11 <Speeder_> but now whenever this patch create signs, it crate stuff that is nonsense
01:47:24 <Speeder_> so what is the correct way to create signs on C++?
01:48:50 <Speeder_> currently the code does this: "seprintf(sign_text, "%s", buf); DoCommandP(tile, 0, 0, CMD_PLACE_SIGN, NULL, sign_text);"
01:48:54 <Speeder_> I assume the seprintf part is wrong
01:49:15 <Speeder_> since there was a guard to prevent sprintf from compiling, and I only did a search-replace from sprintf to seprintf
02:17:45 <LordAro> Speeder_: look at other usages of it, you should be able to work out how it works and what it's doing
02:18:00 <LordAro> and more importantly, the correct parameters to give to it
02:24:52 <Gadg8eer> I installed it on my normal windows user, but it looks like it has to be installed as an admin.
02:27:34 <Gadg8eer> ...I'm getting a message that the page no longer exists.
02:27:54 <Wrench_In_The_Plan> How do I construct places where streetcars can do u-turns?
02:34:51 <glx> Gadg8eer: the page works here
02:37:07 <Gadg8eer> Temporary outage, apparently. Sorry to bother you all.
02:40:44 <glx> ply and nml steps in this wiki are outdated
02:41:09 <glx> I think you probably just need "pip install nml"
02:44:29 <glx> well "pip install nml==0.4.5" is probably better if you want to compile an old grf
02:48:05 <Gadg8eer> No, I need make because I'm trying to compile OpenGFX Mars Habitats.
02:48:40 <glx> yes but you'll need nml in wsl env
02:50:09 <Gadg8eer> So when I get to NML in the instructions I should use "pip install NML"?
02:50:12 <Speeder_> LordAro, I tried that but I don't know not even what to search for, to find other usages
02:51:02 <glx> yes and ignore ply step, installing nml will get the deps
02:52:14 <glx> and I think for opengfx+ mars you'll need a pre-0.5 version so "pip install nml==0.4.5"
02:52:26 <Gadg8eer> Can I safely ignore TortoiseHG? It's giving an error when I use "sudo apt-get install TortoiseHG"...
02:53:07 <Gadg8eer> Sorry, that's in all lowercase when I type it.
02:54:34 <glx> replace this step with "pip install mercurial"
02:58:34 <Gadg8eer> It says "Command 'pip' not found, but there are 18 similar ones."
02:59:00 <glx> ah of course pip is not installed
02:59:55 <glx> sudo apt-get install python3-pip
03:03:05 <Gadg8eer> "Package 'python3-pip' has no installation candidate"
03:03:51 <Gadg8eer> "Package python3-pip is not available, but is referred to by another package."
03:05:33 <Gadg8eer> Then why won't it install?
03:08:37 <Gadg8eer> I don't know what's wrong, I typed in exactly "sudo apt-get install python3-pip".
03:13:25 <Wrench_In_The_Plan> More of a gameplay-related question than a technical one - how do I get my trucks and buses to not travel all the way to the ends of roads?
03:13:34 <Wrench_In_The_Plan> Or do I have to construct places for them to turn around?
03:15:10 <Gadg8eer> A turn around must either be a dead end (1x1 tile) or a loop (2x2 tile).
03:15:54 <Gadg8eer> So yeah, you have to construct places to u-turn.
03:16:03 <Eddi|zuHause> they won't turn around in the middle of the road, just at the end
03:16:35 <Gadg8eer> Unless you manually click the u-turn button, but that can't be automatically done via orders.
03:17:29 <Wrench_In_The_Plan> I guess that makes sense. Otherwise everyone would be doing that.
03:18:49 <Gadg8eer> Is it now called python3-pil? Because that installed something.
03:20:35 <Wrench_In_The_Plan> Should I focus on a specific region of the map or expand as much as possible?
03:21:02 <glx> hmm maybe universe repo is not enabled by default
03:23:09 <glx> sudo add-apt-repository universe
03:24:00 <Gadg8eer> It says it's already enabled.
03:25:24 <Gadg8eer> Can you try doing it? Maybe it's not on my end.
03:25:44 <glx> maybe "sudo apt-get update" is needed on first start of wsl
03:26:16 <glx> and no I'm not planning to try wsl
03:26:39 <Gadg8eer> Alright, let's see if update works...
03:26:43 <glx> I already have msys2/mingw when I need make
03:28:20 <glx> usually before installing anything with apt the first step is always "apt-get update" but the coop wiki is missing it
03:32:18 <Gadg8eer> "pip install mercurial" still doesn't work, but "sudo apt-get install mercurial" did.
03:32:30 <Gadg8eer> Does that make sense?
03:56:20 <glx> ah yes nml is available in apt
03:59:30 <glx> oh it's pip3 not pip, silly naming, but makes sense
04:02:01 <glx> anyway not needed finally
04:26:45 <Eddi|zuHause> <Wrench_In_The_Plan> Also, what world generation settings should I use if I want a mix between size and not taking too long to save? <- i'd say 512x512 is plenty of space. i once played a game on 1024x2048 with sparse town and barely covered half the map. the smallest meaningful game i played on a 128x256 map
04:27:05 <Wrench_In_The_Plan> All right.
04:31:15 <Gadg8eer> So I'm trying to use a batch file to compile OpenGFX Mars Houses and it's not working. Here's my batch file, someone please just edit it to what it should be...
04:33:19 <Eddi|zuHause> where you wrote "PAUSE" it should have said "PROFIT" :p
04:37:05 <glx> can't you just type make in wsl shell ?
04:39:11 <Gadg8eer> "No targets specified and no makefile found."
04:39:24 <Gadg8eer> I tried cd, didn't work.
04:40:10 <Gadg8eer> I assume I need to move the source folder into a place where Linux can read it?
04:40:48 <glx> where is the actual location ?
04:40:59 <glx> you may need to adapt the path
04:41:24 <Eddi|zuHause> the working directory must be the one that contains the "Makefile"
04:41:33 <Gadg8eer> C:\TTDTools\GRFs\OpenGFX_Mars_Late_Start\opengfx-mars-houses-5a67ec641605
04:41:49 <glx> I think it should be /mnt/c/TTDTools...
04:42:28 <Gadg8eer> Where is the mnt folder?
04:42:38 <Gadg8eer> Or is that a command?
04:42:52 <Eddi|zuHause> /mnt is not a real folder
04:43:48 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a placeholder to fit the windows drive letters in, which linux has no concept of
04:44:56 <Gadg8eer> cd /mnt/TTDTools/GRFs/OpenGFX_Mars_Late_Start/opengfx-mars-houses-5a67ec641605 didn't work.
04:46:57 <Gadg8eer> Oh boy. Added /c/ but I just opened a whole other can of worms.
04:47:07 <Gadg8eer> Hold on, let me post the output.
04:48:38 <glx> ah yes, nml 0.4.5 is a pain
04:49:05 <Eddi|zuHause> that's good, though, because that means it went properly through most of the other steps before
04:49:12 <glx> and nml 0.5 will fail too because mars-houses source is too old
04:49:29 <glx> but indeed it means your setup is working
04:50:13 <Eddi|zuHause> there was a somewhat simple edit to nmlc 0.4 for the "clock" error
04:51:08 <glx> you'll get the current nml
04:51:58 <Eddi|zuHause> <FLHerne> blat.hijs: If it's just time.clock, making 0.4.5 run is trivial (`sed -i 's/time\.clock/time\.process_time/' nml/generic.py`)
04:52:38 <glx> but nml files are hidden in system files
04:55:44 <Gadg8eer> See the above warning.
04:56:00 <Gadg8eer> Should I add to my path?
04:56:16 <Gadg8eer> I remember the path thing from installing NML
04:57:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know how people would edit the path on WSL, normally you'd edit ~/.profile or something
04:57:33 <Eddi|zuHause> but there's like 20 different ways on linux
04:57:41 <glx> should be the same with wsl, it's ubuntu
04:57:54 <Gadg8eer> Huh. Well, the error from before is still showing up when I use make.
04:58:12 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, because it's still using the old nmlc
04:58:19 <Eddi|zuHause> because the new one is not in your path
04:59:23 <Gadg8eer> So then how do I add it to my path?
04:59:27 <Eddi|zuHause> what also could work is something like "make NMLC=/blah/bin/nmlc"
04:59:44 <Eddi|zuHause> but that is only a temporary measure
05:00:45 <Gadg8eer> I'd rather fix it permanently.
05:01:41 <Eddi|zuHause> i already said everything i could about how to do that
05:02:29 <Gadg8eer> Alright, then temporary it is. How do I do that? NMLC=/?
05:02:42 <Gadg8eer> Which folder do I refer it to?
05:03:05 <glx> it's NML (just checked the makefile)
05:03:21 <glx> and you can add it to Makefile.config
05:03:48 <glx> NML=/home/kidpunk/.local/bin/nmlc
05:03:57 <Eddi|zuHause> you literally posted the folder like 10 minutes ago
05:04:45 <glx> but futureproof solution would be to add this bin dir in front of $PATH
05:05:53 <Gadg8eer> How would I do that?
05:06:16 <Gadg8eer> Also, looks like there's an issue in the header, going to take a look.
05:08:00 <Gadg8eer> Looks like this is where the issue is...
05:08:02 <Gadg8eer> version: NEWGRF_VERSION;
05:08:24 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, need to reset the nml parser cache
05:08:28 <glx> this line seems right, unless NEWGRF_VERSION was empty
05:12:01 <glx> what's the output of ./findversion.sh ?
05:12:57 <Eddi|zuHause> i had this error as well after updating nmlc, it went away when i ran it with -D once
05:13:18 <Eddi|zuHause> dunno how the parser is cached usually
05:13:59 <glx> the issue here is the line seen by nmlc is probably version: ;
05:14:21 <glx> as this variable is replaced by cpp
05:15:02 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, that could be a problem, if the output is empty
05:16:00 <Eddi|zuHause> nmlc could use better error reporting
05:16:24 <Gadg8eer> It probably is empty. Tbh, I don't need to use the version system originally used, since I plan to make this usable as a "future building set".
05:17:11 <Eddi|zuHause> you still need *some* version system
05:17:37 <Gadg8eer> Is it okay to replace it with 1 since it's the first version?
05:18:29 <Eddi|zuHause> it'll probably make it compile, but you don't want to change the version manually on every commit
05:18:43 <glx> but also change the GRFID if you plan to modify it
05:19:20 <Gadg8eer> Alright. Now I'm looking at something confusing. Even though I have a graphics folder with all the needed graphics...
05:19:44 <Gadg8eer> nmlc ERROR: Path "/mnt/c/TTDTools/GRFs/OpenGFX_Mars_Late_Start/opengfx-mars-houses-5a67ec641605/../graphics" does not exist (even after case conversions)
05:20:36 <glx> then graphics is not at the right place
05:21:03 <glx> it should be next to opengfx-mars
05:21:40 <Eddi|zuHause> probably a wrong working directory somewhere
05:22:30 <Gadg8eer> Oh. I see the issue. Everything is being directed to ../graphics/... Instead of /graphics/...
05:23:25 <Eddi|zuHause> it's probably expecting to be run in the src/ directory, but isn't
05:23:33 <glx> well for opengfx-mars, graphics is a separated place
05:24:01 <glx> so graphics must be in the same level as opengfx-mars
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05:34:54 <Gadg8eer> Now I just need to move the changes to the modified version.
05:37:08 <Eddi|zuHause> hold your horses.
05:37:26 <Eddi|zuHause> you still need to fix the path, and find out why findversion.sh is returning empty strings
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07:35:38 <Speeder_> how I create a tileid from x and y?
08:05:04 * LordAro wonders if glx & Eddi|zuHause actually sleep
08:05:24 <LordAro> Speeder_: searching for instances of "seprintf" wouls be an excellent start
08:05:53 <LordAro> learning to navigate source code is an important skill, i'm not going to spoon feed it to you
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08:27:14 <Speeder_> LordAro, I wanted to know if seprintf is the correct way to create signs in first place
08:27:47 <Speeder_> since you told me to search for them, I guess I can assume seprintf IS used to create signs after all. and that is what I needed to know.
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08:39:11 <Gadg8eer> Hey, Eddie? The NewGRF seems to work, but I'm not ignoring you. How can I check to make sure everything is okay?
08:41:32 <Gadg8eer> Eddi|zuHause: What should I look for to get find version.sh working?
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08:55:04 <LordAro> Speeder_: the fact that you're asking that question shows you don't understand what you're doing - seprintf has nothing (directly) to do with signs
09:07:56 <andythenorth> I have to stop reading the issues feed
09:08:14 <andythenorth> such a waste of fucking time
09:45:43 <andythenorth> these cost bugs :)
09:45:54 <andythenorth> I know they're not 'correct'
09:46:16 <andythenorth> but the effect on gameplay is approximately equivalent to the random errors your CPU sometimes makes
09:51:10 <LordAro> andythenorth: maybe we should add priority labels to issues
09:51:34 <LordAro> nothing more than low/medium/high/urgent
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10:30:09 <andythenorth> this always divides the same way
10:30:13 <andythenorth> me and TB in one camp
10:30:17 <andythenorth> everyone else in the other
10:30:34 <FLHerne> This way we acknowledge it's there, and anyone who feels like fixing a trivial bug can pick one up and do it
10:30:57 <FLHerne> And if anyone complains, they can vote on the bug
10:31:21 <andythenorth> we still acknowledge it's there if I close it
10:31:25 <FLHerne> (and if against all odds the bug gets notably upvoted, we know it might actually be worth fixing)
10:31:32 * andythenorth is being badly behaved
10:31:42 <andythenorth> I have had this argument maybe a dozen times now :)
10:31:49 <andythenorth> and I was given close rights a long time ago :)
10:32:39 <FLHerne> But "acknowledging" open bugs by closing them just makes the "closed" state meaningless
10:32:44 <andythenorth> I just find it fascinating. To do my actual job I have to empathise with users so I can understand what they want.
10:33:03 <andythenorth> But I have never managed to empathise with the large number of people who like keeping a longer and longer to-do list
10:33:15 <andythenorth> it's a failure on my part :)
10:33:38 <FLHerne> It's a computer, the bytes are literally free, because MS pays for them :p
10:33:54 <FLHerne> Why should the todo list not be infinite?
10:34:26 <andythenorth> how does one do it?
10:34:31 <FLHerne> The *real* to-do list of things people want fixed doesn't get shorter when you close digital issues
10:35:02 <FLHerne> So why deliberately prevent the digital one from matching the real one?
10:36:08 <FLHerne> They tend to automatically sort themselves in order of "critical" -> "two people have ever cares" over time
10:37:04 <andythenorth> like I said, I've had the argument many times
10:37:08 <andythenorth> I never convince anyone
10:37:11 <andythenorth> and nobody ever convinces me
10:37:35 <andythenorth> I think it's a binary divide about the way people's brains work
10:37:47 <andythenorth> I literally want to quit the project when the issue count gets over 100
10:37:56 <andythenorth> it's massively overwhelming and depressing
10:38:00 <andythenorth> massive public failure
10:38:30 <andythenorth> we all have our thing :P
10:41:42 <FLHerne> Why is the fact that 100 people care about different trivial inconsistencies a massive failure?
10:43:18 <FLHerne> It means there are >100 players who (a) don't experience non-trivial bugs and (b) play enough to care about their pet trivial thing
10:43:36 <andythenorth> I think it's the failure to do anything about it
10:44:13 <andythenorth> also they're not 100 trivial inconsistencies also
10:44:23 <andythenorth> if it's valid as an issue, then it's serious
10:44:42 <FLHerne> In that case, I fail to see how closing the issue is a useful form of doing-about-it :p
10:45:09 <FLHerne> It doesn't go away, you just avoid looking at it
10:45:12 <andythenorth> the reason is that it means the project is making decisions about quality
10:45:23 <andythenorth> that's the thing that bugs me
10:45:33 <andythenorth> if we don't know what 'good' is, then it's futile
10:45:41 <andythenorth> this gets very Zen and The Art quickly
10:46:06 <FLHerne> There's a difference between "good" and "perfect"?
10:46:16 <andythenorth> it's a good book, hard to keep going in a lot of it though
10:46:53 <FLHerne> Acknowledging that it isn't perfect, and probably never will be, doesn't stop it being good
10:47:59 <andythenorth> making anything good means saying no to 99 out of 100 thiings
10:48:11 <andythenorth> hmm, maybe 66 out of 100 actually
10:48:34 <FLHerne> I have no objection to you closing silly feature requests :p
10:49:24 <andythenorth> I find these cost bugs very confusing, because they're clearly very serious
10:49:31 <andythenorth> and yet they make no difference to the game
10:49:46 <andythenorth> and they're not on the level of syntax or whitespace arguments
10:49:56 <andythenorth> they're clearly something that doesn't conform to the spec
10:50:01 <andythenorth> but where is the spec? :(
10:57:54 <andythenorth> I need to stop copy-pasting sprites around, it makes industries look same :)
10:58:15 <andythenorth> I am drawing new features, but there's only so many ways to draw a chimney
10:58:31 <andythenorth> or a storage tank, or a small brick building :D
11:02:16 <FLHerne> On the 'trivial feature request' front, can the dock be full-width? :p
11:02:34 <FLHerne> Now we have multi-docks-per-station, it's nice to have long quays
11:02:50 <FLHerne> But then it looks silly like in that first screenshot
11:03:18 <FLHerne> Those are one industry?
11:03:23 <FLHerne> Then yes, the gap looks odd
11:03:59 <andythenorth> it makes a nice final station, but too weird in the first screenshot
11:04:16 <FLHerne> I guess the idea is to allow a dock in the middle?
11:04:29 <FLHerne> But with large ships you'd get nasty clipping
11:04:41 <andythenorth> per the 3rd screenshot
11:05:00 <FLHerne> Demolishable industry tiles? :D
11:05:29 <FLHerne> That would probably be a trivial flag to add, if there are the bits for it...
11:05:51 <FLHerne> But 90% of people wouldn't discover it
11:05:52 <andythenorth> that is a very interesting idea
11:06:08 <FLHerne> Actually, *optional* industry tiles?
11:06:19 <andythenorth> you're right about the UI problems, but still
11:06:19 <FLHerne> Where if the tile check fails, just that tile isn't built
11:06:26 <andythenorth> also interesting
11:06:39 <andythenorth> nielsm has an unfinished patch for sub-layouts
11:06:51 <andythenorth> tiles you can build routes over :P
11:07:21 <andythenorth> nah, you'd want to terraform as well
11:08:23 <FLHerne> Hm, other problem with demolishable industry tiles would be magic-bulldozer
11:08:37 <FLHerne> Click the wrong square and your destination goes poof
11:10:21 <andythenorth> I did that in my current game :P
11:10:41 <andythenorth> I demolish a lot of industries, I can't get FIRS to build them in useful places :)
11:23:54 <milek7> from curiosity, I wanted to check number of open bugs on mozilla bugtracker
11:24:20 <milek7> it dumped 10000 and 'This list is too long for Bugzilla'..
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11:31:39 <andythenorth> 9999 saying 'it eats all the RAM on my machine'
11:31:56 <andythenorth> and 1 saying 'pls stop changing dev tools so often'
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11:46:37 <milek7> same thing with KDE, GNOME, LLVM, gcc: dumps 10000 and bails out 'list is too long'
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12:30:07 <FLHerne> After they fixed the typo, yeah
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13:09:02 <Eddi|zuHause> seems like a missed opportunity to let andy have the satisfaction of closing an issue :p
13:15:42 <andythenorth> I have my own to-do list for FIRS :P
13:15:51 <andythenorth> things getting done
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15:44:49 <andythenorth> I'm having to use colour a lot to differentiate all these steel industries
15:44:56 <andythenorth> big sheds are all a bit identical :P
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16:16:36 <andythenorth> now I need to draw a factory for vehicle parts
16:16:49 <andythenorth> homage to original factory sprites? o_O
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18:01:42 <supermop_Home> andythenorth make the long one go the other way?
18:05:57 <supermop_Home> always kinda bugged me that the coke oven only goes /
18:07:54 <supermop_Home> but its probably a pain to draw \
18:14:31 <andythenorth> long one goes both ways
18:15:59 <andythenorth> was easy to do with these sprites
18:29:36 <Wrench_In_The_Plan> How do I counter rival companies buying exclusive rights?
18:29:52 <Wrench_In_The_Plan> Do I just have to buy them first or something?
18:35:21 <andythenorth> playing multiplayer or AI?
18:36:04 <FLHerne> There's a setting that simply disallows that
18:36:11 <FLHerne> Otherwise, yes, buy them first
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18:59:00 <andythenorth> things that would improve FIRS
18:59:07 <andythenorth> * custom fence sprites
18:59:17 <andythenorth> * a ground tile in-between mud and concrete
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19:16:42 <jottyfan> so now that I have created some bugfixes to the gamescript BeeRewards, I was not able to update the library in bananas tonight, because I have never done this before (and am not known as one of the gamescript providers). I've written an email about this, but I wonder if this is the correct way to do so?
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19:28:22 <jottyfan> I could not request my account to be migrated because I did never have one...
19:29:53 <andythenorth> nielsm it always was this :)
19:30:00 <andythenorth> we just don't always notice
19:30:04 <Eddi|zuHause> A: use stackoverflow :p
19:33:31 <Eddi|zuHause> then you have to ask the person who uploaded it to add you as team member, if he trusts that you are who you claim you are
19:35:15 <jottyfan> then this must have been andythenorth or albert - but I still do not remember...
19:35:39 <andythenorth> no it was whoever created Bee Rewards
19:35:46 <glx> you just need to get your github account inked to username
19:36:02 <jottyfan> then it must have been albert
19:36:04 <andythenorth> that's incorrect ^^
19:36:09 <andythenorth> it's just a mistake in the migration
19:36:16 <jottyfan> because I did never have a bananas account...
19:38:36 <jottyfan> I did only add some code to mercurial, but providing it to bananas was done by him then
19:39:09 * andythenorth never used it, must have been alberth
19:39:52 <jottyfan> ok, thank you very much
19:39:59 <jottyfan> need to get in contact with him then
19:41:36 <andythenorth> try forums, but he's mostly left the community
19:41:47 <andythenorth> I can't assign owners in bananas afaik
19:42:29 <glx> really you just need to get your github account linked to the author name
19:42:31 <Yexo> You'll need a github account anyway
19:42:43 <Yexo> Since you're already listed as author, that can be migrated directly
19:42:56 <Yexo> Whether or not you had an active openttd account before is irrelevant
19:42:59 <glx> even if you never had a bananas accout before
19:43:37 <Yexo> <andythenorth> I can't assign owners in bananas afaik <- correct, but neither can Alberth
19:43:54 <Yexo> andythenorth: and you can upload a new version right now
19:45:41 <andythenorth> I need to add some ground tiles to CHIPS
19:45:50 <DorpsGek_III> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
19:45:56 <andythenorth> Yexo I think your last message before your away time was about CHIPS :)
19:46:22 <glx> andythenorth: adding stations to nml will not be easy
19:46:39 <Yexo> andythenorth: Quite possible :)
19:46:49 <andythenorth> glx proposing doing it? :)
19:46:58 <Yexo> What's the big problem? Something with layouts in action0 vs action2 or so?
19:47:05 <glx> newstation specs are silly
19:47:22 <jottyfan> well, I did try to upload new content yesterday, but bananas did not allow me to add that because of the project name
19:47:25 <glx> yeah layouts on A0 while all others use A2
19:47:43 <jottyfan> I could rename the project and upload it, yes, but I think it's better to have a new version for such minor changes...
19:48:03 <glx> but newstation is probably one of the older additions I guess
19:48:23 <jottyfan> but how could I link my github account to my name? My github name still is the same as the author's name of the project
19:51:32 <jottyfan> yes, this is option that I've chosen tonight - but without migration, it seems to be more complicated...
19:52:23 <jottyfan> maybe I need more patience... :)
19:52:47 <glx> yes, just need to wait a little, it will be handled
19:53:18 <jottyfan> so thank you all very much
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20:35:51 <andythenorth> hmm CHIPS is broken
20:35:56 <andythenorth> well that's a thing to do :)
20:36:11 <andythenorth> the Makefile expects mercurial
20:36:51 <andythenorth> oh it's a big modular coop makefile :)
20:49:23 <Wrench_In_The_Plan> Uh, I'm getting this odd error...
20:49:32 <Wrench_In_The_Plan> I can't send a road vehicle to a station
20:49:36 <Wrench_In_The_Plan> Despite it looking as though I can.
20:49:57 <Wrench_In_The_Plan> I'll post a screenshot on Imgur. One second.
20:49:59 <andythenorth> is it a passenger vehicle and a freight station?
20:50:21 <Wrench_In_The_Plan> It's a freight vehicle and a freight station.
20:51:01 <LordAro> what is the road vehicle?
20:51:25 <LordAro> you've managed to perfectly obscure it in your screenshot :p
20:53:28 <Wrench_In_The_Plan> It's from the eGRVTS thingie
20:53:36 <Wrench_In_The_Plan> The Mettler Ultra with Flatbed Trailer
20:53:56 <Wrench_In_The_Plan> Maximum 20 kN of Tractive Effort
20:54:42 <Wrench_In_The_Plan> A Pitman's Articulated Flatbed Truck suffers the same issue
20:54:46 <Wrench_In_The_Plan> It can't do anything either.
20:55:26 <Wrench_In_The_Plan> Looks like the vanilla livestock vans work just fine.
20:57:40 <Eddi|zuHause> articulated vehicles cannot go in dead-end stations, only drive-through stations
20:59:13 <LordAro> that error message isn't great
21:08:46 <Wrench_In_The_Plan> So, how do I see roads that are obscured by buildings?
21:09:31 <glx> it's in the cogs dropdown
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21:12:32 <FLHerne> Or press ctrl-X, and there's a transparency toolbar
21:12:35 <Wrench_In_The_Plan> Any tips for a complete newcomer to TTD, by the way?
21:13:49 <nielsm> expand, expand, expand :)
21:14:34 <nielsm> and be optimistic about your routes, plan for growth
21:17:16 <nielsm> also, learn the hotkeys for switching building tools, it will help you build much faster
21:17:34 <LordAro> nielsm: i've never bothered learning the hotkeys
21:17:57 <debdog> the most important key is "x"
21:17:58 <andythenorth> I just hit 'A' a lot, with combo keys
21:18:01 <andythenorth> until I get what I want
21:18:28 <andythenorth> there's one hotkey that's really bad if you have the wrong window focussed, clears orders unintentionally
21:18:52 <andythenorth> I have NFI how, but highlighting the foreground window would be a usability benefit )
21:18:57 <Wrench_In_The_Plan> What's delete do?
21:19:06 <FLHerne> Close all non-pinned windows
21:19:22 <Speeder_> squirrel is proving to be quite annoying
21:21:07 <FLHerne> (it's a demo of different common/fundamental ways to set up rail signals)
21:21:44 <glx> basic rule: always use PBS, and put signal only where it's safe to wait
21:23:00 <nielsm> and "safe to wait" means, if a train stopped at the signal, would it be blocking any other trains trying to go in a different direction
21:23:10 <Wrench_In_The_Plan> Got upset a little bit.
21:23:19 <Wrench_In_The_Plan> Remembered how competing trains would crash into my trucks
21:23:27 <Wrench_In_The_Plan> Which doesn't work out very well for me.
21:23:34 <Wrench_In_The_Plan> How do I deal with them?
21:23:59 * andythenorth wonders how much makefile CHIPS really needs
21:24:10 <andythenorth> it's just a grfcodec compile, nothing fancy
21:24:14 <andythenorth> there's not even docs etc
21:24:38 <andythenorth> or we could use it as the test case for nml stations? o_O
21:25:12 <Wrench_In_The_Plan> Also, uh... How can I remove a bridge over a river without also removing the river?
21:25:12 <FLHerne> Wrench_In_The_Plan: Bridges
21:25:21 <Wrench_In_The_Plan> 'Cause filling in a body of water is expensive.
21:25:23 <FLHerne> Wrench_In_The_Plan: Demolish the ramp tiles
21:25:42 <glx> well my idea was to use CHIPS as reference to check output and syntax :)
21:25:46 <FLHerne> Well, removing the river wouldn't remove the bridge anyway
21:26:07 <FLHerne> To do anything to a bridge, do it to either of the end ramps, and it'll affect the whole thing
21:26:29 <glx> but stupid spec makes it so uneasy
21:26:45 <andythenorth> the question is whether to do a new spec
21:27:10 <FLHerne> Maybe look at however m4nfo does it?
21:27:25 <glx> I'm sure there should be a way to factorise layout code
21:27:33 <FLHerne> ISTR that has a pretty nice grf-coder-facing interface for stations
21:27:37 <glx> but for now it's hardcoded for Action2
21:27:46 <andythenorth> it has been suggested multiple times that stations are just objects with track bits
21:27:53 <andythenorth> I don't know if that holds up though
21:29:47 <glx> yeah except objects, airport tiles, industry tiles and houses use action2 for the layout, while stations put it in action0
21:30:55 <glx> at least station prop 1A uses the same format as advanced layout
21:32:05 <andythenorth> the idea would be to make a new API for stations, standardising it on what the others do
21:32:14 <andythenorth> I doubt it's that simple :)
21:32:18 <Eddi|zuHause> can we supercede station specs with a more object-like one?
21:34:21 <andythenorth> I have no useful opinion, I've never coded a station grf
21:34:28 <andythenorth> I just add graphics to the code in CHIPS
21:34:30 <glx> not sure Eddi|zuHause, stations already have an action2 for something else
21:35:13 <andythenorth> there'd have to be a new flag or something?
21:35:16 <andythenorth> then branch conditionally?
21:35:50 <glx> and I think nml could support tile layout in a more generic way
21:36:42 <andythenorth> implementing current spec in nml gives a reference against existing grfs
21:36:47 <andythenorth> a new spec does not :)
21:36:51 <andythenorth> specs are hard :P
21:37:00 <Wrench_In_The_Plan> I think I may be having too many road vehicles going to a small number of stations
21:37:34 <glx> current spec is not that bad, it's just needs work
21:38:07 <FLHerne> My housemate has decided that lockdown is the golden opportunity to take up violining :-/
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21:46:22 <andythenorth> are they good yet?
21:51:32 <nielsm> when are we adding rockets to openttd?
21:52:13 <gardas714> thanks for the link!
21:52:20 <gardas714> hopefully no explosions
21:53:40 <nielsm> it's not going anywhere if they don't get an explosion
21:53:52 <nielsm> it just needs to be in the right place
21:55:25 <glx> interior design looks so modern compared to soyouz or shuttle
22:13:44 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison opened pull request #8173: Fix: Compilation warnings in story_gui and script_story_page https://git.io/Jfr9q
22:20:55 <milek7> maybe it's too modern.. I'm not convinced to touchscreens everywhere
22:22:20 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh approved pull request #8173: Fix: Compilation warnings in story_gui and script_story_page https://git.io/Jfr9K
22:22:59 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh merged pull request #8173: Fix: Compilation warnings in story_gui and script_story_page https://git.io/Jfr9q
22:58:17 <gardas714> following a post on the forum, whoever would like to talk about a possible economic model for openttd, please join #openttd-econ
22:58:28 <gardas714> not an official effort by any means, by the way
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23:43:32 <supermop_Home> glx the shuttle is very old compared to now i guess?
23:43:56 <supermop_Home> i just joined this - it just seems to be people prodding a door?
23:46:26 <supermop_Home> i assume the launch was scrubbed and thatpeople prodding the door is not typical
23:48:51 <andythenorth> scrubbed due to bad weather?
23:49:17 <supermop_Home> weather's great in new York, should have built the pad here
continue to next day ⏵
