IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2020-04-12
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00:00:50 * andythenorth learns about catalysts
00:01:02 <andythenorth> chemistry is somewhat magical mystery tour for me
00:01:14 <andythenorth> all the words look similar, but the meanings are very different
00:03:48 <supermop_Home_> hmm we have a bag of French oak chips
00:04:03 <supermop_Home_> maybe i will 'barrel age' this soup stock i'm making
00:04:52 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 opened pull request #8082: Fix #8081: Check for waypoints when removing docking tiles https://git.io/JvhNB
00:06:04 <frosch123> "oak chips" does not sound edible
00:07:14 <andythenorth> this new economy is basically new Extreme
00:07:22 <andythenorth> everything goes everywhere, just less ugly
00:07:34 <andythenorth> which food cargos are most important?
00:10:11 <NGC3982> did you just say that the importance of cheese "depends"?
00:10:33 <glx> no the most important food
00:10:35 <NGC3982> what has the world come to
00:15:11 <frosch123> i thought it was weird, that the moon was only one type of cheese
00:19:31 <supermop_Home_> andythenorth i wish there were some reversed coke ovens
00:19:59 <supermop_Home_> so i can have the coal drop on the right and the coke loading on the left
00:20:43 <andythenorth> rotterdam objects
00:23:13 <NGC3982> i really like how people can create so much dynamics in lego
00:23:29 <NGC3982> doesnt even look blocky
00:26:40 * andythenorth wonders about industries with 8 required input cargos
00:33:36 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8082: Fix #8081: Check for waypoints when removing docking tiles https://git.io/JvhAu
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08:46:58 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh merged pull request #8082: Fix #8081: Check for waypoints when removing docking tiles https://git.io/JvhNB
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09:52:31 <TrueBrain> I found so many eggs in my fridge .. unbelievable. Like I put them there or something
10:10:06 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] TrueBrain commented on pull request #3: Add: first version of bananas-api https://git.io/JvjIl
10:28:51 <Eddi|zuHause> * andythenorth wonders about industries with 8 required input cargos <-- use it very very sparingly. like one single industry. in one single economy.
10:30:19 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: what? no. must have been the easterbunny
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10:43:38 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] TrueBrain commented on pull request #3: Add: first version of bananas-api https://git.io/JvjLm
10:53:48 <andythenorth> TrueBrain did you hoard all the eggs?
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10:55:38 <TrueBrain> YES, YES I DID \o/ :D
10:57:05 <Samu> great fix glx, better than I imagined :)
11:08:30 <andythenorth> player nicknames are in inverse proportion to skill
11:08:47 <andythenorth> 'pro' and 'killer' always have < 48% (global average) WR
11:08:58 <andythenorth> 'Iamnoob' is guaranteed purple player (70%)
12:23:29 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #8047: Add: Buttons to select script profile in the AI/GS configuration window https://git.io/JvjqO
12:23:29 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
12:27:58 <Wolf01> <andythenorth> player nicknames are in inverse proportion to skill <- rule of L
12:28:32 <Wolf01> Applies to height, cars, names, money
12:28:33 <andythenorth> "xX_Pro_Winner_Assassin_Sniper_Kill_Xx"
12:28:36 <andythenorth> rushes to front, dies
12:28:56 <andythenorth> we name ourselves what we want to be, not what we are
12:28:59 <andythenorth> I am not in the north :P
12:29:30 <Wolf01> xX_ _Xx is even more explicit of skillness
12:29:36 * andythenorth doesn't particularly want to be in the north
12:29:41 <andythenorth> Wolf01 you are Northern?
12:29:46 <andythenorth> but yet you are south of me?
12:30:11 <Wolf01> I live nearest to the equator than you, but both are in the northern emisphere
12:55:32 <SpComb> are you holding your phone in your left or right hand, facing what heading?
12:56:00 <LordAro> Wally is somewhere on this line
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12:58:25 <SpComb> raises the question of what reference point you use to define where exactly "you" are as a specific point on the surface of the earth
12:58:46 <SpComb> and when your coordinate reference system was updated to take tectonic plate shifts into account?
12:58:55 <LordAro> Dordrecht & Nijmegen are the bigger Dutch cities approximately along that line
12:58:59 <LordAro> in case you were wondering :p
13:09:45 <nielsm> but I can't think of a good way to keep baseline alignment between a floated button and the main text that isn't massively complex
13:16:43 <andythenorth> SpComb there is a detailed document from UK Ordnance Survey about co-ordinate systems
13:16:55 <andythenorth> many things to consider, including effect of tides
13:19:06 * andythenorth goes back in his hole
13:20:56 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7896: Feature: Push-buttons on storybook pages https://git.io/JvjmD
13:26:29 <TrueBrain> LordAro: lol @ "approx" .. I give you this very exact value, and you come back with "approx"
13:26:39 <TrueBrain> I am not saying I am dissapointed, but ...
13:28:57 <LordAro> i was just clicking around in google maps, couldn't be bothered to go into any greater detail :p
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13:57:22 <andythenorth> I should do chores
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14:29:35 <TrueBrain> ugh, tusd remains very unfriendly; but there are not many alternatives, sadly
14:29:42 <TrueBrain> I now finally have it up and running
14:30:08 <TrueBrain> it is returning http URLs instead of https, and I cannot change settings for that :D
14:35:58 <TrueBrain> $ python -m ape upload
14:35:58 <TrueBrain> 2020-04-12 14:35:24 ERROR Uploading failed with validation errors:
14:36:03 <TrueBrain> 2020-04-12 14:35:24 ERROR - File 'test.txt' failed validation
14:36:03 <TrueBrain> 2020-04-12 14:35:24 ERROR - test.txt: Could not recognise this file; possibly the extension is wrong?
14:48:26 <Wolf01> People have strange priorities
15:07:38 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: what's worse is that the people with strange priorities are also often the loudest ones
15:25:26 <TrueBrain> so close .... my pod cannot write a file on S3 .. so sad!
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16:00:54 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] frosch123 commented on pull request #3: Add: first version of bananas-api https://git.io/Jvjs7
16:03:35 <frosch123> hmm, i wonder what's the purpose of the swagger-generated client
16:04:15 <frosch123> i am only passing json structs between backend and jinja template, so i think i do not need anything of the swagger stuff
16:05:09 <TrueBrain> as you have seen, I wrote my own swagger-generated client, but if that could have been automated, that would have made a lot of things easier :)
16:06:26 <TrueBrain> there are also generated clients that wrap everything in nice objects
16:06:34 <TrueBrain> which are a bit more friendly than JSON objects, ofc
16:06:49 <TrueBrain> but there too, it mostly adds type-checking
16:12:52 <frosch123> whenever i read sources which follow a fixed maximum line length, i think how nice code is that does not bother about line length
16:13:49 <TrueBrain> so you are that type of programmer :P
16:14:21 <frosch123> i think code formatting should fit the logic of the code. it's silly to give hard rules precedence
16:14:41 <nielsm> right try to avoid long lines but sometimes a statement works best with a long line and has no good place to break
16:19:54 <TrueBrain> why oh why is my deployment key not working .. grrrr
16:21:33 <frosch123> bananas-server is surprisingly small compared to bananas-api
16:22:28 <TrueBrain> it really is frosch123 , it really is :)
16:22:44 <TrueBrain> I was so happy with bananas-server .... I did not realise how big bananas-api would become
16:23:08 <glx> but api does a lot more checking
16:23:41 <TrueBrain> I think 50% is validation
16:23:49 <TrueBrain> possibly even 70%, tbh
16:24:08 <glx> still better than the old one accepting almost anything
16:25:17 <frosch123> pretty sure the problem is so hard, that the new one still accepts a lot of sillyness :)
16:25:51 <TrueBrain> but at least it gives means to fix them when they pop up :)
16:26:18 <TrueBrain> I absolutely hate errors I cannot reproduce locally
16:26:32 <glx> nobody likes that I think
16:28:35 <TrueBrain> add AWS in the mix, and you have like a bizilion possible issues
16:34:03 <TrueBrain> finally, I can reproduce it inside a docker :D w00p
16:35:28 <frosch123> is it the fault of pyyaml if it does not have wheel as requirement, but needs it for building?
16:36:34 <frosch123> well, i had to add wheel to requirements.txt, before pyyaml
16:36:49 <frosch123> no idea whether that's something that needs fixing in bananas_api
16:38:22 <TrueBrain> euh .. the package "wheel"?
16:38:32 <TrueBrain> that sounds like your pip did something wrong :)
16:40:02 <TrueBrain> if my memory serves me right, you only need "wheel" if you are building wheels, which you shouldn't be doing :D
16:40:25 <TrueBrain> anyway, the requirements.txt in the repo works fine in the Docker, so not sure what went wrong
16:41:05 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] frosch123 commented on pull request #3: Add: first version of bananas-api https://git.io/JvjZL
16:43:09 <TrueBrain> okay, after 10 layers of debugging: "error: cannot run ssh: No such file or directory"
16:43:20 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] frosch123 commented on pull request #3: Add: first version of bananas-api https://git.io/JvjZ3
16:44:11 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] TrueBrain commented on pull request #3: Add: first version of bananas-api https://git.io/JvjZs
16:45:32 <frosch123> he, i just c&p the readme :p
16:45:55 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] TrueBrain commented on pull request #3: Add: first version of bananas-api https://git.io/JvjZC
16:46:14 <TrueBrain> frosch123: yeah .. I guess .. if it is in the README, we might want to add it
16:46:23 <TrueBrain> Python just made this so annoying
16:47:19 <frosch123> so, next thing missing is tusd
16:47:25 <frosch123> maybe i should have used the docker :)
16:47:43 <TrueBrain> but that reminds me .. did I write in the README that youhave to install tus
16:48:13 <frosch123> no, but you also did not write that you have to install pip3
16:49:55 <TrueBrain> This API is written in Python 3.8 with aiohttp, and makes strong use of asyncio.
16:50:05 <TrueBrain> you cannot get Python 3.8 without pip these days :D
16:50:19 <TrueBrain> but I will write it down :)
16:50:49 <TrueBrain> huh, no, even more weird. .. why did youhave to install pip3?
16:50:53 <TrueBrain> the python3 -m venv .env
16:51:03 <TrueBrain> what kind of OS are you running over there? :D
16:51:07 <TrueBrain> I start to worry :)
16:51:24 <frosch123> pip was already installed, i just guessed
16:51:42 <TrueBrain> sorry, I am honestly curious now what you tried to do, as this is a bit weird to me
16:51:49 <TrueBrain> you have python3.8? And did python3 -m venv .env ?
16:51:54 <TrueBrain> and in that .env/bin, there was no pip?
16:52:15 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] frosch123 commented on pull request #3: Add: first version of bananas-api https://git.io/JvjZ0
16:52:41 <frosch123> no, i am on debian stable, i have python 3.7, and wanted to know whether that is an issue
16:52:56 <frosch123> and i had no issue with pip
16:53:06 <frosch123> i just named a random basic package
16:53:39 <TrueBrain> okay, now I am confused :) And no, it needs 3.8 :)
16:53:41 <frosch123> forget that i mentioned pip. replace it with "you did not mention to not run it on windows"
16:54:36 <TrueBrain> "Host key verification failed."
16:55:19 <frosch123> what is the point of using $(pwd) in mkdir? that sounds like cat |
16:55:56 <TrueBrain> what are you refering to? :)
16:56:08 <TrueBrain> mkdir -p $(pwd)/../bananas-common
16:56:30 <TrueBrain> the $(pwd) is there because the next line needs it, and it is easier to understand if they are consistent
16:56:41 <TrueBrain> so people who want to replace it with anything else, can understand those 3 should be identical
16:57:09 <frosch123> ok, i wondered whether there was magic with symlinks
16:57:21 <TrueBrain> nah; I just didn't want to make a variable out of it
17:00:16 <TrueBrain> owh, I see the Docker doesn't like IPv6 bind
17:00:18 <TrueBrain> I will fix that too
17:00:40 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] frosch123 commented on pull request #3: Add: first version of bananas-api https://git.io/JvjZP
17:07:26 <TrueBrain> hmm .. the volume mounts are no longer working here
17:09:47 <frosch123> i wonder what is running inside the docker that blocks port 80
17:10:54 <TrueBrain> the IPv6 stack in Docker is a bit wonky
17:11:43 <TrueBrain> I will push that in a second
17:12:12 <TrueBrain> euh, you can forget about the index-github-url :D
17:13:46 <TrueBrain> and there are all the fixes I found and you mentioned :)
17:14:44 <TrueBrain> need to fix bananas-server in a similar way
17:14:52 <TrueBrain> but to test your frontend, you don't need bananas-server just yet :)
17:15:31 <frosch123> i needed the secret repo, but i figured that out myself
17:15:45 <TrueBrain> you can start clean just fine :)
17:15:51 <TrueBrain> with my latest push, that even works :)
17:16:03 <frosch123> i guess "latest" is important there
17:16:13 <frosch123> it failed when the directory was just empty
17:16:15 <TrueBrain> yeah, otherwise it has issues doing the "git init" on BaNaNaS :)
17:16:19 <frosch123> maybe git init would have been enough
17:16:32 <frosch123> anyway, curl claims it works
17:16:33 <TrueBrain> although it seems there is still a bug there .. hmm ..
17:17:33 <frosch123> also nice that the last package's description says "Tahnk you for downloading my pack, have fun"
17:18:27 <TrueBrain> somehow the volume mounts dont work .. hmmmm
17:18:32 <TrueBrain> not in the way I expect them to, anyway
17:19:54 <TrueBrain> it made the mounts somewhere .. I just don't know where on my disk :D
17:21:08 <TrueBrain> if I restart my docker, I can still see the content; I just cannot find it on my disk :D
17:21:16 <TrueBrain> I have spaces in my folders
17:22:26 <TrueBrain> I run docker on another host :D
17:23:18 <TrueBrain> seems the "mkdir" is optional, but what-ever
17:24:26 <TrueBrain> frosch123: important mention: tusd on local systems runs on another port; it is not forwarded by the port 80 webserver
17:24:42 <TrueBrain> in production it is a single endpoint
17:29:27 <TrueBrain> that is to say, I am still validating it, but I just uploaded the first package (OpenGFX 0.6.0)
17:29:43 <TrueBrain> it is otherwise completely empty
17:30:22 <TrueBrain> right, dinner time indeed :)
18:09:46 <Samu> minchinweb's ship pathfinder isn't what I thought it was
18:10:10 <Samu> doesn't builds locks, or aqueducts, it only works at sea level
18:10:34 <Samu> the only thing it builds is buoys :(
18:12:23 <Samu> there's 2 other AIs to take a look
18:12:37 <Samu> ShipAI and RailwAI, both use ships and canals
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18:17:40 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-server] TrueBrain updated pull request #1: Add: first version of the bananas_server rewritten in Python https://git.io/JvhXd
18:28:27 <frosch123> i like looking at diffs that remove lots of code. even if i do not understand them otherwise
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18:30:44 <TrueBrain> a good review rarely needs understanding of code :P
18:31:06 <TrueBrain> okay, wrote a very very VERY basic CLI tool
18:31:08 <TrueBrain> that can upload content
18:31:27 <TrueBrain> well, I guess I should make it able to edit too
18:31:30 <TrueBrain> just .. to be sure that works
18:31:35 <frosch123> how do you do authentication via cli? or is it dev only?
18:31:48 <TrueBrain> no, just like any frontend
18:32:04 <TrueBrain> the azure-trick, I call it :P
18:32:17 <frosch123> you ask for pw and send it to gh?
18:32:19 <TrueBrain> I setup a small webserver on localhost, ask the API to authenticate, tell the user to visit the github URL I show him
18:32:40 <TrueBrain> after GitHub flow, it redirects to localhost
18:32:42 <TrueBrain> giving me the all-okay
18:32:49 <frosch123> redirect to localhost works?
18:33:17 <frosch123> i just assumed browsers would block that
18:33:26 <frosch123> like they block file:///
18:33:40 <TrueBrain> yeah, but file:// is rather unrestricted
18:33:45 <TrueBrain> localhost not so much :)
18:34:02 <TrueBrain> anyway, it also caches your token, so you don't have to do that every time
18:34:05 <TrueBrain> just every 14 hours :P
18:42:08 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-cli] TrueBrain opened pull request #1: Add: a very basic CLI frontend for BaNaNaS API https://git.io/JvjCk
18:44:51 <TrueBrain> okay ... I think the infra is up and running
18:44:57 <TrueBrain> and everything seems to be in working order
18:46:23 <TrueBrain> well, for the HTTP part
18:46:30 <TrueBrain> I have some work to do to make it available to the ingame client
18:46:42 <TrueBrain> and I need to add callbacks so it reloads the GitHub repository when changes are made
18:49:08 <glx> oh need to rebase cmake carefully I think
19:05:13 <Samu> ShipAI author had this heap, it's great! it's faster
19:19:20 *** Jackal is now known as Guest22033
19:19:39 <Guest22033> I am long time openttd fan but now i want to play Russia empire map and i am facing error becose i have to somehow manually add extensions to game
19:19:54 <Guest22033> Can someone please help me what to do
19:21:02 <FLHerne> Guest22033: Do you have a link to this?
19:22:10 <Guest22033> i download russian empire and i think this is all i have to install
19:22:37 <FLHerne> Guest22033: You should download the relevant NewGRF files and install them to Documents\OpenTTD\newgrf
19:23:04 <FLHerne> The files from that link, you'll have to unzip first
19:23:06 <Guest22033> i put them in there but somewhere i read that i have to get ttdpatch
19:23:28 <nielsm> no, ttdpatch is not relevant for openttd
19:23:30 <FLHerne> You don't need ttdpatch; OpenTTD is fine
19:24:03 <FLHerne> (probably; I think there are a few ttdpatch saves that OTTD isn't compatible with)
19:25:18 <Guest22033> i have those files in newgrf folder but when i try to launch it says i am missing files
19:28:21 <glx> you may need to activate them manually in newgrf settings
19:29:41 <Guest22033> new grf setting says matching grf not found
19:29:47 <Guest22033> i see them in list
19:30:08 <Guest22033> matching filr not found
19:31:16 <nielsm> if you open NewGRF Settings from the main menu (not the load game/load scenario window) do the NewGRFs show as avaialble there?
19:33:33 <Guest22033> No they dont show in there list
19:33:46 <nielsm> okay then you did not put them in the correct folder
19:33:57 <glx> you restarted openttd after putting them there ?
19:34:47 <Samu> is that intended to happen?
19:36:43 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code) https://git.io/fhbqc
19:36:58 <glx> I just hope I didn't break anything :)
19:37:54 <Guest22033> Now i see them in list but how i activate them
19:38:18 <nielsm> try load loading the game now
19:39:06 <Guest22033> matching file not found [ compatitle grf found}
19:39:41 <nielsm> maybe it will work then :D
19:42:53 <Guest22033> cant load scenario becose of missing files
19:45:00 <glx> ok cmake branch still seem to work for macos
19:47:39 <FLHerne> Guest22033: Are you trying to start a normal game or a multiplayer server?
19:48:58 <Guest22033> play scenario and then i try to start russia empire
19:49:44 <Guest22033> can someone please try that russian empire scenario and tell me what i do wrong..
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19:59:55 <Guest22033> herne ootko suomesta
20:02:20 <glx> ok I tried using "find missing content online" and still 3 missing files
20:04:49 <Guest22033> mari new ships new staions bas
20:13:20 <Guest22033> can someone recommend something another very good scenarion with different trains,ships etc than stock is
20:13:27 <FLHerne> Guest22033: You need some specific older version of those grfs
20:13:39 <FLHerne> You might be able to find them on the forum somewhere
20:14:39 <nielsm> and that's (part of) why it's silly to not want your stuff on bananas...
20:21:53 <Guest22033> if i download some newfrf in game will it be avalaible for all scenarios
20:45:39 <mcbanhas> got a question, are there no plans to convert the vanilla vehicles to double livery in OpenGFX? This would be useful for identifying groups in multiplayer and such, and it should be a relatively easy thing to do.
20:46:20 <TrueBrain> I don't think there are any plans as such for OpenGFX, but contributions are always welcome; especially as it is considered this easy :)
20:46:25 <TrueBrain> good way to get started ;)
20:46:47 <mcbanhas> I'm not good with graphics, but I can give it a shot
20:48:24 <mcbanhas> I was wondering mostly if there would be an objection against it
20:48:45 <TrueBrain> you can always start it off in a new GRF, and see how people react
20:52:40 <frosch123> mcbanhas: take a look at opengfx+vehicles
20:53:03 <frosch123> all the "opengfx+" projects are exactly that. extending the original stuff with new options
20:57:39 <mcbanhas> opengfx+ projects also add a lot of additional stuff
20:58:10 <mcbanhas> I'm talking more about updating the opengfx package to support what is now a core feature
20:58:36 <frosch123> 2cc is not a core feature
20:59:26 <mcbanhas> dual liveries you mean?
20:59:39 <mcbanhas> i mean it's there by default
21:00:04 <mcbanhas> it's no part of the original TTD, but it's a core OpenTTD feature
21:00:20 <frosch123> no idea what your defintion of addon is
21:00:40 <frosch123> but dual colors are an add-on
21:00:47 <frosch123> the original vehicles can be green
21:00:55 <frosch123> while 2cc vehicles cannot
21:01:11 <frosch123> the feature set of baseset are frozen since 1995
21:01:19 <frosch123> they don't gain stuff
21:01:51 <LordAro> (new graphics excluded)
21:05:24 <mcbanhas> how does that relate with opengfx?
21:05:30 <mcbanhas> I'm not sure I'm following here
21:05:44 <LordAro> opengfx is a base set
21:06:01 <LordAro> the only things it can have are the sprites defined to be in the base set
21:08:52 <mcbanhas> my point is the base set should be compatible with a feature that is now part of the game, namely dual liveries). It's not a shiny feature per se, it's literally coded into openttd without any external downloads needed
21:09:22 <mcbanhas> and moreover it does have a practical use
21:09:46 <frosch123> but there is no argueing, there is a technical reason that opengfx will never get that feature
21:10:05 <frosch123> because that is how basesets and newgrf work
21:10:52 <frosch123> will take a few weeks, you can't summarize that on irc
21:11:48 <mcbanhas> that's a non-answer, you can't answer a question but saying "it's a technical matter and then throwing me an entire manual to read
21:12:10 <frosch123> you are asking why the wall is solid
21:12:32 <frosch123> either learn the technical stuff, or accept the short answers
21:12:38 <LordAro> NewGRF format is fixed, and has been since the late 90s
21:14:01 <mcbanhas> frosch123: that's a false comparison. I can feel that a wall is solid and simple answers on why that happens is also possible without resorting to in-depth molecular physics
21:14:41 <nielsm> baseset grf's and newgrf's are different, as far as I know
21:14:44 <frosch123> well, i can't help you then
21:14:59 <nielsm> the baseset grf is not allowed to contain anything but bare realsprites
21:15:17 <TrueBrain> lol; I did not know that :D Learn something new every day ;)
21:15:52 <nielsm> that's actually just an assumption on my part, but I'm assuming that ottd baseset graphics follows the same basic rules as original transport tycoon/ttdpatch
21:16:26 <nielsm> the newgrf format is a hacked up version of the grf spriteset format from transport tycoon, there were never pseudosprites from chriw sawyer's hand
21:16:31 <mcbanhas> that would be my assumption too, but it's not a valid reason why they cannot at some point be modified or updated
21:17:13 <mcbanhas> but OpenGFX is technically a newgrf, or at least it is downloaded as such
21:17:13 <TrueBrain> nielsm: well, there is map-stuff in grfs :P (all I kinda know about that :D)
21:17:29 <TrueBrain> mcbanhas: that is the point they are trying to make: it is not a NewGRF
21:17:37 <TrueBrain> it is for sure not downloaded as such; it is downloaded as a Base Graphics
21:17:42 <TrueBrain> wherein there are a few grfs
21:17:49 <nielsm> I don't know how 2cc is done, but if it requires using action 2/3 chains to select a sprite variation then it means invoking reproducability across network
21:17:52 <TrueBrain> but as nielsm mention, they clearly are not full-fletched NewGRFs
21:18:01 <nielsm> and then all players on a multiplayer server would have to use the same baseset
21:19:59 <glx> and opengfx can't have more "feature" than original base set
21:21:24 <nielsm> if grf container version 2 allowed multiple recolour masks in some form, to support multiple recolour layers, that could be an action-free way to support it
21:21:33 <nielsm> or maybe that would rather be a grf container version 3
21:22:47 <mcbanhas> so why was OpenGFX made this way though?
21:23:03 <nielsm> because it needs to be a drop-in replacement for the original base graphics
21:23:31 <mcbanhas> i get that, but it could be that and support extra features
21:24:46 <mcbanhas> restricting it to the exact limitations of the original sounds of an arbitrary design choice
21:24:56 <TrueBrain> could would should .. but what problem are you now trying to solve? :)
21:25:09 <TrueBrain> especially given you can download any other NewGRF which does add this functionality
21:25:24 <nielsm> yes it's "arbitrary" in the sense that it could be worked around, if you made some major architectural changes and huge swathes of rewrites of the entire game
21:25:41 <glx> no, because if in network game one player is using original baseset and the other is using opengfx with added feature, desync is highly probable
21:27:16 <mcbanhas> ok, now you're stating to make sense, but are dual liveries programmed as such it is truly impossible?
21:28:02 <nielsm> mcbanhas how much do you know about newgrf programming?
21:28:14 <nielsm> do you know what action 0, action 2 and action 3 are?
21:28:18 <glx> there are newgrf to add 2cc to base vehicle
21:28:48 <mcbanhas> pretty much nothing, hence why I am asking
21:29:45 <nielsm> okay, the core idea is that the game has a base vehicle set with hardcoded values and sprite id's into the baseset
21:30:19 <nielsm> there is only support for one company recolour natively, due to the limitations of the 256 colour palette, changing the palette is not possible as that would break compatibility
21:30:46 <mcbanhas> alright, that's a reasonable answer
21:31:19 <nielsm> to implement 2cc a newgrf needs to define new or redefine existing vehicles, such that it can define callbacks that fetch appropriate sprites based on selected company livery
21:31:40 <nielsm> this fetching of sprites can be non-deterministic and invoke other behaviour
21:32:18 <nielsm> the core game design of openttd revolves around "commands", which are used whenever a player does something, and apart from that it needs to simulate the exact same things on all clients participating in a multiplayer game
21:32:33 <nielsm> if something causes two clients to end up with different simulation results, you get a desync
21:32:55 <nielsm> that something could be newgrfs doing different things on each client
21:33:54 <nielsm> so if you allowed basesets to define new vehicles using callbacks to select different graphics based on various things, and keep allowing players to use different basesets, then you could have players participating in a game where their basesets cause simulation desyncs
21:34:04 <nielsm> I hope that made sense and I didn't skip too many details
21:34:08 <mcbanhas> yeah, hence why players with have to mandatorily share the same packages if playing with newgrfs online
21:34:45 <mcbanhas> no, that was a lovely answer, in fact you went too much into detail. I got it when you explained the limits of the 256 color palette
21:35:01 <glx> every player MUST have the exact same newgrfs online for this reason
21:36:03 <glx> some newgrf can be used in "static" mode, but openttd checks they can't cause desyncs
21:36:18 <nielsm> even with basesets that use 32bpp sprites (mainly aBase and zBase) they still need to provide 8bpp sprites, and 32bpp sprites still only support one recolour layer
21:37:24 <mcbanhas> that sucks a wee bit though, because it means the base vehicle set can never be upgraded with new vehicles to match coming upgrades such as the in-progress water depth feature
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21:38:35 <glx> that's possible because we provide new graphics usually, and there's a mechanism for baseset to be able to replace them
21:39:20 <mcbanhas> what new graphics are currently included actually?
21:39:34 <nielsm> rivers/canals/waterlocks
21:39:59 <mcbanhas> oh yeah the path signals, i forgot about that
21:40:14 <mcbanhas> how are they rendered with the original TTD base set?
21:40:41 <andythenorth> we could move all the default vehicles to an included newgrf
21:40:43 <mcbanhas> are the new sprites within the OpenTTD package itself?
21:40:58 <andythenorth> but I doubt we will
21:41:07 <nielsm> is a sprite-addition set that ships with ottd
21:41:34 <glx> andythenorth: would mean openttd is responsible for the full grf ;)
21:41:51 <andythenorth> is that an upside or a downside?
21:42:31 <mcbanhas> andythenorth: would rather have an entirely new landscape over that I think
21:42:54 <glx> and including it in all openttd packages is silly because it rarely changes
21:46:03 <_dp_> are there any patches that combine normal view and minimap mode?
21:46:31 <_dp_> I vaguely remember there being something but can't find anything
21:47:39 <nielsm> wow... the drum set is aggressive on this yamaha MU50 sound module
21:51:05 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: There's a set of "OpenGFX+" newgrfs
21:51:28 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: OpenGFX+ {Trains, Airports, Landscape, Trees...}
21:52:34 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Which do pretty much what you're proposing - they're similar to the original game elements while taking advantage of OpenTTD's newer features
21:52:51 <FLHerne> e.g. OpenGFX+ Airports are rotateable and climate-aware
21:53:51 <Wolf01> Needs OpenGFX+ roads now :P
21:54:07 <FLHerne> And OpenGFX+ Road Vehicles includes trams
21:55:03 <mcbanhas> I'm fiddling with the parameters for that now actually
21:57:54 <mcbanhas> I don't think OpenGFX+ trains has 2cc
21:58:01 <mcbanhas> a least as far as I can see on the parameters
22:10:28 <mcbanhas> the screenshots he posted are nuts
22:10:36 <Samu> what is xtree and xstddef ?
22:14:46 <nielsm> implementation details in microsoft's c++ standard library
22:15:23 <Samu> hmm, so they are doing the sort
22:16:22 <Samu> script list sorter uses buckets?
22:16:36 <Samu> slightly confusing, but whatever it is, it's faster
22:16:48 <mcbanhas> andythenorth: is there any place where i can see the full list of trains for Iron Horse?
22:17:19 <mcbanhas> the first post in the official thread seems out of date
22:17:55 <milek7> mcbanhas: ah, that one :D
22:18:01 <milek7> I'm always surprised of quality of his mockups ;P
22:21:10 <Samu> so that's what it's called
22:21:31 <mcbanhas> milek7: i'm wondering if that's just a mockup or if he already programmed the whole thing
22:21:35 <mcbanhas> if so it would be nuts
22:22:16 <glx> coding that would be a pain :)
22:23:49 <mcbanhas> yeah, he's envisioning a whole set of conditional orders that simply do not exist in the game yet
22:24:28 <andythenorth> speaking from very personal experience
22:24:39 <mcbanhas> I do however see his concept of fusing timetables and orders in the same window working tho
22:24:42 <LordAro> looks factorio inspired
22:24:45 <andythenorth> adding bevels and shading to everything does not a more usable UI make
22:24:58 <andythenorth> I have committed this error at least twice personally
22:25:14 <LordAro> .andythenorth { border-shadow: 5px; }
22:25:15 <andythenorth> it's a nice retro reminder of winamp though
22:25:38 <andythenorth> it's not like the current UI is usable
22:25:39 <mcbanhas> really whips the lamma's ass
22:25:44 <andythenorth> but I am used to it, so eh
22:26:35 <mcbanhas> wouldn't be bad idea to discuss some of his concepts tho
22:26:38 <milek7> he makes mockups and then searches someone to code it ;)
22:26:57 <milek7> "New World Disorder" GS is collaboration of that sort (I didn't finish coding, though)
22:27:29 <mcbanhas> he does seem to have some solutions for present problems tho
22:27:55 <glx> I think most of the devs would agree about some windows needing improvements, but hey we are coders, not UI specialists ;)
22:27:58 <mcbanhas> like I can see the way how he put orders and timetables in the same window working
22:28:09 <andythenorth> glx speak forself :P
22:28:14 <andythenorth> I am the opposite :P
22:28:30 <mcbanhas> yeah that's usually the problem with a lot of open source games
22:28:36 <andythenorth> hmm, I'm not convinced that brining "they don't work" timetables into the orders window does anything but destroy the orders window
22:28:43 <mcbanhas> they end up being made for programmers by programmers
22:29:10 <andythenorth> if I forked openttd, conditional orders and timetables would be deleted
22:29:41 <andythenorth> and everything else would be unicorns
22:29:44 <glx> at least working on the GUI side now is easier than it was some years ago :)
22:30:01 <mcbanhas> timetables are just useless for me ATM. i heard there's a patch that improves it somehow though
22:30:17 <LordAro> glx: gotta be careful with that, albert's GUI rework was about 10 years ago :p
22:30:44 <andythenorth> I added windowshade to the station window
22:31:05 <frosch123> glx: ottd 1.x was released in 2010+x
22:31:18 <andythenorth> I released child #1 in 2010
22:31:33 <glx> map array was a pain before we added accessors to it
22:31:46 <andythenorth> are we rewriting the economy then?
22:31:56 <andythenorth> I'm scared to ask, someone usually rage quits the discussion
22:33:06 <frosch123> why are there 171 people here?
22:33:12 <frosch123> all matrix zombies?
22:33:26 <frosch123> channel norm used to be 100-130
22:34:10 <TrueBrain> frosch123: how did it go with the API?
22:34:14 <TrueBrain> got it working with your frontend?
22:34:27 <frosch123> i only procrastinated
22:34:40 <TrueBrain> you think we will make the end of the month? :D
22:35:27 <frosch123> if i ignore the swagger stuff, i can finish all except the tus stuff tomorrow
22:35:39 <TrueBrain> what did you want to do with swagger? :)
22:35:39 <frosch123> the swagger stuff does not appear helpful to me
22:36:12 <mcbanhas> I think that all in all it's worthwhile to work with a UI designer like this guy to come up with a solution to improve the UI
22:36:19 <frosch123> i think i am just going to pass json dicts around, and do not do any validation
22:36:24 <TrueBrain> just look at the swagger as a way to communicate between you and me how the API should look frosch123 ; and don't give it any more attention :)
22:36:28 <TrueBrain> that is fine for now
22:36:32 <TrueBrain> build first, improve later
22:36:57 <andythenorth> mcbanhas I honestly think that's the worst thing we could do
22:37:05 <andythenorth> being polite about it, his UIs are shit
22:37:17 <andythenorth> I don't like to slag people off in the channel, it's rude
22:37:21 <andythenorth> but they're awful
22:37:37 <TrueBrain> frosch123: tomorrow I hope to finish routing the network on AWS .. if you like I can take a look at tus after that?
22:37:43 <TrueBrain> shouldn't be too hard from what I read
22:37:58 <mcbanhas> well I mean with him or anyone else that knows about UIs
22:38:27 <andythenorth> I won't touch OpenTTD UI, it's a tar pit
22:38:51 <andythenorth> there's absolutely no possibility for deleting *any* features, no matter how bad
22:38:59 <andythenorth> which means good UI design is impossible
22:39:02 <mcbanhas> yeah but you can't think only like a programmer for these matters
22:39:08 <LordAro> i don't think that's entirely true
22:39:15 <andythenorth> mcbanhas FWIW I am a UI designer with millions of users
22:39:21 <TrueBrain> frosch123: after that we ask andythenorth or LordAro nicely to add some CSS :D
22:39:32 <LordAro> but we'd have to be pretty sure
22:39:53 <andythenorth> not bragging, I just have looked at OpenTTD UI and backed away
22:40:27 <mcbanhas> i think it should be possible to fix some things here and there without setting fire to the whole thing and starting over
22:40:40 <TrueBrain> LordAro: we really need help .. deadline is the end of this month :)
22:40:56 <LordAro> css isn't part of that deadline :p
22:41:01 <LordAro> and basic css is trivial
22:41:10 <TrueBrain> so we need someone to do it :)
22:41:16 <andythenorth> we really need to just reuse the current skin
22:41:24 <TrueBrain> and if you have seen what frosch123 's site looks like .. that basic CSS part, is needed :P
22:41:30 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: sure, I am fine with that
22:41:30 <andythenorth> we shouldn't confuse a reimplementation with a new skin
22:41:32 <TrueBrain> it just needs doing
22:41:39 <Samu> there is no Bucket Heap when I try to search for it
22:41:51 <LordAro> just for clarification - TrueBrain is talking about new bananas, andythenorth is talking about OTTD UI
22:41:53 <Samu> is it just called Bucket Queue
22:41:54 <andythenorth> frosch123 so what, the current skin needs retemplated from django templates?
22:42:10 <andythenorth> sorry mcbanhas :)
22:42:16 <andythenorth> 2x UI conversation
22:42:20 <mcbanhas> I wouldn't change the UI skin either
22:42:30 <TrueBrain> LordAro: we are? Well, I know andythenorth thinks the same about the website :)
22:42:39 <TrueBrain> we just needs some hands to make it happen ;)
22:42:40 <andythenorth> I changed track sorry
22:42:56 * andythenorth apologises to everyone
22:43:58 <andythenorth> there's a chance it might actually build for me
22:43:58 <frosch123> when you scream, you have found my easteregg :)
22:44:38 <andythenorth> you have a built-in DMCA takedown form? :o
22:44:41 <andythenorth> how does that work?
22:45:48 * andythenorth probably has old bananas skin checked out somewhere
22:45:54 <andythenorth> I changed it once
22:46:20 <mcbanhas> you're adding a new skin to bananas?
22:46:35 <andythenorth> current bananas dies at the end of April
22:46:40 <andythenorth> 'we' have to write a new one
22:47:37 *** mcbanhas_ has joined #openttd
22:48:31 <mcbanhas_> oh btw, once I have a good draft for the manual of style I'm working on, would you prefer me to submit a PR with it, or should i just put it on the wiki?
22:48:50 <mcbanhas_> I'm asking because the current coding style guide is only on the wiki itself AFAIK
22:49:38 <andythenorth> the majority of docs are on the wiki
22:49:43 <andythenorth> github docs are minimalist
22:50:22 <mcbanhas_> I began writing it on markdown for that purpose
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22:55:48 <_dp_> how to call company that takes cargo from the industry?
22:55:54 <_dp_> opposite of supplier I guess
22:59:07 <luaduck> stupid question, does OpenTTD support displaying IPv6 addresses in the console? (I think I asked this before but I lost my IRC scrollback)
22:59:34 <andythenorth> customer or consumer
22:59:53 <andythenorth> recipient, destination
23:04:12 <_dp_> Hm, interesting, industry has an owner
23:04:21 <_dp_> but it can only be OWNER_NONE %)
23:07:23 <nielsm> sounds like a feature that was never implemented
23:10:33 <frosch123> there is a second "founder" or something
23:11:01 <_dp_> lol, owner goes back to r1
23:11:11 <frosch123> _dp_: GSCargoMonitor calls them Pickup and Delivery
23:11:56 <nielsm> supply carrier, production carrier
23:13:02 <_dp_> frosch123, isn't that an act of moving cargo, not the company that does it?
23:13:25 <_dp_> I think supplier and consumer are the best terms
23:14:21 <nielsm> the transport company does not buy the cargo from the producing industry and sell it to the taking industry
23:14:26 <glx> luaduck: it should, at least dedicated server shows local IP (both v4 and v6) on start
23:14:32 <andythenorth> so I have an 800 litre inflatable hot tub on decking
23:14:38 <andythenorth> and it turns out the decking is rotten
23:14:44 <nielsm> so the transport company is not a consumer or supplier
23:14:50 <andythenorth> "Do you wish to continue y/n?"
23:15:52 <nielsm> is this one of the joys of being a homeowner?
23:16:06 <andythenorth> I can live dangerously
23:16:45 <LordAro> imagine having a hot tub in England
23:16:59 <frosch123> _dp_: ottd 0.1 (pretty close to CS) already has owner as parameter to DoCreateNewIndustry, and it is only called with OWNER_NONE constant
23:17:31 <andythenorth> LordAro I don't have to imagine :)
23:17:54 <_dp_> well, I guess nobody would mind if I delete it then :p
23:18:27 <frosch123> it ottd 0.1 it is used to fill the landinfo window :p
23:18:45 <frosch123> _dp_: ottd generally used "founder", which was added later and has meaning
23:18:56 <frosch123> owner is indeed useless
23:19:13 <_dp_> yeah, I'm not touching founder
23:24:35 <_dp_> nielsm, don't think payment is absolutely necessary to be called consumer or supplier :p
23:24:53 <_dp_> also it's just a quirk of a broken openttd economy
23:27:26 <milek7> andythenorth: I don't think personal preference of bevels is really important in that discussion
23:27:31 <milek7> apart from horrid contrast on some rows, general idea certainly isn't worse than current ui
23:27:36 <milek7> with plaintext list and matrix of modification buttons (and dropdowns) stashed aside
23:28:43 <andythenorth> I have spent 20 years getting paid to argue about UI
23:29:03 <andythenorth> that order window is absolute shit, with or without bevels
23:29:21 <andythenorth> it's also one of those stupid tarpits, OpenTTD UI cannot be fixed
23:29:28 <andythenorth> hot air arguments
23:29:49 <andythenorth> it would be....different
23:30:07 *** kouett_ has joined #openttd
23:30:26 <andythenorth> we could try it for one release, remove it in the next? o_O
23:30:30 <andythenorth> Apple do that in macOS
23:30:36 <andythenorth> Feature: transparency in menus
23:30:48 <andythenorth> Feature: menus are no longer transparent, for better legibility
23:30:52 <mcbanhas_> I don't think the current UI is (that) bad, it just has some stuff that shouldn't be on top of each other
23:31:44 <andythenorth> most people confuse the UI with buttons
23:32:10 <_dp_> lmao, yeah, current UI is bad but not THAT bad...
23:33:10 <andythenorth> until we're prepared to delete things that don't work, like timetables and conditional orders
23:33:13 <mcbanhas_> incidentally I do agree we should get rid of timetables in its current form
23:33:29 <andythenorth> timetables literally doesn't work
23:33:54 <mcbanhas_> But I still would like something to have buses behave in a more civilmanner
23:34:10 * andythenorth heads towards ASD obsession about certain issues, sorry, UX is one of them
23:34:19 <andythenorth> I am not ASD according to 'test on the internet'
23:35:35 <Samu> anyone here can help me with this? https://pastebin.com/raw/UN3MguWq , on the descriptions where it says "The complexion of this operation is UNKNOWN", if anyone actually knows the complexity or Script Lists, which is using bucket sort
23:35:43 <mcbanhas_> andythenorth: btw I asked b4 if you have a list of all the trains in Iron Horse, since the one on the thread seems outdated
23:36:10 <andythenorth> that url is not permanent
23:37:45 <FLHerne> mcbanhas_: You can set "vehicles never expire", set year to 3000, and see all of them :P
23:38:02 <FLHerne> andythenorth: "1 rosters of trains for OpenTTD"
23:38:06 <_dp_> Samu, heaps are usually logarithmic, buckets are usually squared, but tf is that thing I've no idea :p
23:38:19 <andythenorth> ${'s' if len(foo) > 0 else ''}
23:38:33 <mcbanhas_> I just love your trains man, you gonna do american inspired stuff at some point?
23:38:34 <andythenorth> or alternately, the other rosters :P
23:38:44 <andythenorth> mcbanhas_ depending on death or disability, yes
23:38:49 <mcbanhas_> FLHerne: good point, thanks fo the suggestion
23:38:55 <Samu> _dp_ you have to look inside openttd code, for how ScriptList uses the buckets
23:39:08 <mcbanhas_> separate pack or same?
23:39:23 <mcbanhas_> all these look like brit stuff
23:39:36 <andythenorth> same grf, different parameter
23:40:55 <Samu> this is sorting by value, ascending, so line 543
23:42:19 <Samu> "The complexity of this operation is UNKNOWN", I typed uknown because I don't really know, it's a placeholder
23:42:41 <Samu> if you actually can figure them out, i'll appreciate
23:47:11 <mcbanhas_> very nice man, I see E-unit loco inspired stuff on the top
23:47:47 <mcbanhas_> also amtrak double decker carriages at the bottom?
23:48:59 <milek7> I was just trying to get what threw you off in that window
23:49:04 <milek7> but if 'is absolute shit' was just statement without explaination, not meant to be discussed, then.. ok
23:50:44 <andythenorth> it's very hard to explain how wrong that UI is :)
23:50:52 <andythenorth> like, it just starts wrong, and carries on
23:51:04 <andythenorth> oops router reboot time
23:52:11 <mcbanhas_> milek7: I think andythenorth means the functions provided by the user interface
23:52:19 <mcbanhas_> not necessarily how they're displayed
23:52:47 <_dp_> if flag use sort if not use sort anyway xD
23:53:04 <LordAro> i noticed that the other day
23:53:10 <LordAro> doc comment doesn't match anymore either :)
23:53:25 <_dp_> second one should probably be stable_sort judging by that comment
23:54:05 <LordAro> if indeed that's faster with "nearly sorted" data
23:54:33 <_dp_> it is in gcc but I don't think it's guaranteed by the standard
23:54:46 <LordAro> mm, i wouldn't have thought so
23:54:50 * andythenorth needs natural gas cargo
23:54:54 <LordAro> might just be easier to just remove the flag entirely :p
23:55:01 <andythenorth> Error: pipelines not found :P
23:55:07 <Eddi|zuHause> how could the standard guarantee that?
23:55:17 <_dp_> logically speaking stable_sort should be merge sort or similar
23:55:30 <luaduck> glx: ipv6 addresses show up as "172.25.0.1" in clients
23:55:49 <luaduck> not sure if that's just a quirk of my networking setup but I don't think it is?
23:56:10 <LordAro> luaduck: ipv6 certainly should work
23:56:17 <LordAro> and does in many other cases
23:56:53 <LordAro> luaduck: however, that is part of the RFC 1918 private range
23:57:01 <LordAro> are you sure you're not actually using ipv4?
23:57:13 <luaduck> 100% sure I'm connecting via ipv6
23:57:37 <luaduck> IPv4 clients have the correct addresses so it's not a bridging problem
23:59:27 <LordAro> have you any idea where the 172.25.0.1 could've come from? any part of your current network setup use anything similar?
continue to next day ⏵
