IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2020-01-20
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00:00:11 <rptr> yeah. choochoo does that, but it's not that good :/ i mean it's impressive that it does even what it does i suppose
00:00:25 <FLHerne> i.e. its purpose is to connect towns with roads, and to make profit only in order to build more roads
00:00:27 <rptr> maybe i should scrap what i have, read all of choochoo and try to improve upon it
00:00:35 <rptr> i am basically copying choochoo with some differences and using superlib
00:00:52 <rptr> i like that in an AI though
00:01:00 <rptr> i wrote one that turns the world into water
00:01:09 <rptr> i figured you can combine that with ShipAI
00:01:26 <rptr> unfortunately ShipAI can't make enough money to remove more than 10 tiles of land a year. lol
00:01:38 <rptr> Version 6: now with fewer roads
00:01:45 <rptr> i like that network though
00:01:54 <FLHerne> [the odd gaps are tunnels/bridges, probably]
00:02:22 <rptr> what i'm doing, that i think ChooChoo is not, is saving all stations and networks, so that later i can see. ok i want to add this station to the fold, well it seems there's a network, let's add to it. while choochoo seems do something similar, but once it has finished a network task-
00:02:32 <rptr> i think it basically forgets its whole network. but maybe i'm wrong. i didn't read it all
00:02:42 <rptr> tbh i like an AI that goes crazy
00:02:51 <rptr> supposedly AdmiralAI and DictatorAI are good
00:03:26 <rptr> i tried both but they didn't exactly blow me away. i mean if we are talking AIs making more money than players, you should just have it make longtrains+longlines
00:04:08 <FLHerne> That way leads to "build airports in diagonally-opposite corners of the map, ..."
00:04:20 <rptr> well, if it was just making a difficult one
00:04:41 <rptr> airports should be banned from AI anyway :P
00:04:54 <FLHerne> IMO, there's a point in OTTD where making money optimally becomes a daft goal
00:06:31 <rptr> well once you have more money than you can spend it stops mattering
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00:14:49 <rptr> hm. i should try a straight clean game against an ai
00:15:08 <rptr> supposedly LudiAI is good
00:15:38 <FLHerne> Samu spent a lot of time running head-to-head AI comparisons to see which one would "win"
00:15:47 <rptr> yeah i saw some website about that. mousetail.nl
00:15:53 <FLHerne> (in terms of money, I think, or rating)
00:16:07 <rptr> wow. that's so nasty! ludiai or admiralai used the other AIs road network! :P
00:16:19 <rptr> there is one big road connecting 3 cities. and 1 of them made it, the other one is leeching. nice
00:17:52 <FLHerne> <Samu> WormAI 1st, RailwAI 2nd, LuDiAI AfterFix 3rd, NoNoCAB 4th, SnakeAI 5th, ShipAI 6th, CivilAI 7th
00:19:04 <rptr> oh. i'm not testing worm. railwai though
00:20:53 <rptr> 1well for me trAIns is kicking ass in the early game
00:22:35 <rptr> but civilai is the nicest
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00:28:17 <supermop_Home> any good 1.10 games going on?
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00:54:43 <rptr> ok. LudiAI went crazy from one moment to the next, bought 200 planes, and is leading
00:57:19 <hythlodaeus> we should implement carbon emission caps to balance planes ahah
01:10:00 <rptr> make an ai to grief all plane users :D
01:10:12 <rptr> planes are so "OP" while boats suck :( poor boats
01:13:09 <supermop_Home> boats are for making your map look pretty
01:29:07 <hythlodaeus> boats are even gonna suck more once depth gets implemented
01:29:29 <hythlodaeus> which is why it is also a good opportunity to rebalance them
01:48:08 <supermop_Home> boats have the advantage of unlimited scaling of capacity per tile
01:49:01 <supermop_Home> unlike trains, they cannot crash
01:49:33 <supermop_Home> so a 1 tile wide canal between two points can carry as many boats as you care to build
01:50:19 <supermop_Home> whereas a train service would need at least two tracks, stations, and still need at lead some headway gap between trains
01:50:53 <supermop_Home> and planes need a slot in the landing pattern
01:52:52 <supermop_Home> but a canal can carry as many boats as your cpu can handle
01:53:48 <dwfreed> sounds like a bug in boats, imo
02:01:26 <rptr> not a bug, presumably it's for performance reasons
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09:10:55 <andythenorth> so weathered wagons? o_O
09:10:59 * andythenorth thinks probs not?
09:12:10 <andythenorth> random, or over time? :P
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09:29:38 <Pikka> I meant "probs probs not" :)
09:30:17 <Pikka> a little bit of colour variation is nice, expecially in grey metal
09:30:23 <Pikka> much easier to do in 32bpp ;)
09:35:01 <andythenorth> want to finish this version someday :P
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10:17:47 <andythenorth> yes, don't do it, silly idea? o_O
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11:46:54 <peter1138> Mmm, I skipped breakfast again because I wasn't, mostly because I just grazed ALL WEEKEND :(
11:47:03 <peter1138> I'm literally 4 kg heaiver...
11:47:24 <peter1138> Hmm, did we 'fix' the restarting a savegame password issue?
11:47:57 <peter1138> I'm gonna go with no.
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13:36:44 <peter1138> Such bridge height deception.
13:38:21 <LordAro> the rail fences *almost* work
13:52:58 <Pikka> so many things *almost* work with OTTD's landscape sprites :)
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14:18:08 <hythlodaeus> Hi guys, I need a native English UK speaker who would be willing to act as a reviewer for PR #7870. I want to improve the quality of text style and writing for menus and tooltips, but I first need to have standards agreed on how to proceed before making further changes
14:19:06 <hythlodaeus> This PR can only be properly be reviewed until a set of textual guidelines is agreed on and then all modified lines are proofread
14:19:50 <hythlodaeus> so it would be nice to have a native speaker to help supervise this process
14:22:51 <LordAro> hythlodaeus: i am still of the opinion that the PR needs splitting up into separate commits
14:23:22 <LordAro> i know this results in a lot of "extra" work, but ultimately makes the whole thing much easier to review and reason about
14:23:35 <LordAro> currently it's just a massive blob of changes that no one is going to touch
14:24:17 <hythlodaeus> LordAro, I must disagree, and the reasons were elaborated. It would cause many conflicting versions of the same document and force an excruciatingly long debate on every single style change
14:24:27 <hythlodaeus> It only seems like a massive blob
14:24:52 <hythlodaeus> once a style guide is agreed upon, it will take 2 hours max to review everything
14:24:59 <LordAro> conflicting versions?
14:25:20 <LordAro> each *type* of change has a single commit, building on the previous change
14:25:35 <LordAro> still only 1 PR, and one resulting file
14:26:24 <hythlodaeus> Ok, but wouldn't it be much better to come up with a style guide instead?
14:26:39 <hythlodaeus> because then one would have to make an even larger amount of edits
14:27:26 <hythlodaeus> consider the following: one decides beforehand how capitalization will go, how titles will go, how button text will go
14:27:37 <hythlodaeus> without being necessary any extra commits for that
14:28:23 <hythlodaeus> and once all of these is agreed, changes can then be performed in a single commit along with the rewrites I've already done
14:29:48 <hythlodaeus> If I make one commit for capitalization, one commit for titles, one commit button text, etc, one will have to spend a huge and confusing amount of time going back and forth, in a labyrinth of comments until any consensus is agreed
14:30:09 <LordAro> i don't think that's true
14:30:41 <LordAro> no one will spend any real time looking at the intermediate files, and it should be relatively easy to remove/change an intermediate commit out with another, or remove it entirely
14:31:14 <hythlodaeus> then again, what would be the point for it?
14:31:46 <LordAro> preserving the history of why something was changed/added/removed
14:31:59 <LordAro> we do not want the equivalent of "Change: Some strings"
14:32:30 <hythlodaeus> if that's the sole reason, there are other ways to do that, in this case, that is why I would prefer agreeing on a style guide
14:32:56 <hythlodaeus> a style guide doc could be written, and submitted as documentation
14:33:11 <hythlodaeus> and all changes would be performed based on it
14:33:21 <LordAro> you're right, it would be better to decide on something beforehand
14:33:34 <LordAro> but i would say you need to do the above anyway
14:33:41 <LordAro> so in the meantime...
14:34:06 <hythlodaeus> frankly I'm still learning git, and glx is already tired of me asking him questions :p
14:35:08 <LordAro> that's fine, no one was born knowing how to do this stuff :p
14:36:59 <hythlodaeus> frankly agreeing on a style guide would be a first step. as of this moment the changes I've made were based on personal preferences of some people around here
14:37:18 <hythlodaeus> what I would like to know next is how could this be agreed upon and where it would be submitted to
14:37:32 <hythlodaeus> i'm not sure if a style guide would sit well on the code
14:37:47 <LordAro> something in the docs dir would be fine
14:38:39 <LordAro> but yes, perhaps that's the better idea - a PR adding a string style guide, then updating the strings themselves can follow on from that
14:40:31 <peter1138> I breakfast-lunched. I guess that's brunch? I dunno. It was, uh, salad, not a fry up.
14:40:35 <hythlodaeus> I would then like to know your opinion (from everyone here) on a small number of things
14:44:09 <hythlodaeus> on the matter of tooltip titles, I went through pretty every tooltip in the game, and the most recurring pattern, although not universal, is that only icon-based buttons that either have a description or a list of Ctrl+ commands have a separate title
14:44:35 <hythlodaeus> for example the tooltips for signal types
14:46:31 <hythlodaeus> I would like to ask what you think of my following proposition: all icon-based buttons with a description or Ctrl+ command list will require a title separate by a colons and a paragraph break
14:46:46 <hythlodaeus> I will exemplify:
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14:51:25 <LordAro> hythlodaeus: please put it in the issue
14:51:31 <LordAro> everything here is ephemeral
14:51:37 <LordAro> it will get forgotten
14:51:43 <hythlodaeus> I will also do it, yes
14:51:48 <hythlodaeus> thank you for the note
14:54:55 <hythlodaeus> three examples of tooltips that need a separate title vs three that don't
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14:55:43 <hythlodaeus> essentially if the button is an icon and there is a need for a description of some sort, title + colons + paragraph will be added
14:59:32 <hythlodaeus> https://imgur.com/C6uD1kG but if for example, the button is text based (non-icon) then it does not need a separate title, because it is already technically in the button itself
14:59:39 <hythlodaeus> does this make sense to you?
15:24:06 <FLHerne> hythlodaeus: It does to me at least
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16:02:13 <hythlodaeus> ok, so the second example is the following
16:03:32 <hythlodaeus> For tooltips on lists: a title + colons + paragraph is only added if there is no relevant title to the list or list column
16:04:20 <hythlodaeus> so for example, because there are no column titles on the left, the tooltips require a title to better illustrate what each column does
16:05:18 <hythlodaeus> the right example does have proper column titles above (Trains owned/Trains available) so it does not require a title on the tooltip
16:05:23 <hythlodaeus> does this make sense?
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16:45:39 <hythlodaeus> LordAro: I could create a PR as soon as I have a workable version for what I would consider a sane style guide, or I could first open an issue first and propose rules for discussion. which would you prefer?
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16:52:14 <andythenorth> peter1138: sometimes I like to have a salad, but in bread, with bacon
16:52:21 <andythenorth> not too often mind you
16:56:55 <LordAro> hythlodaeus: if you've actually got something to show, probably best as a PR
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17:27:57 <hythlodaeus> happy mlk day. had no idea it was today
17:34:47 <spnda> Is there some basic GRF NFO code somewhere? Or a tutorial?
17:37:34 <spnda> I seem to mistyped something in the url, thanks, I'll check there
17:40:06 <peter1138> I rarely eat bread.
17:40:11 <peter1138> These days, anyway./
17:43:27 <supermop_work> i had noidea i had to go to work today until 1:30 am
17:48:39 <peter1138> I was binge-watching (and eating while at it :() Netflix...
17:49:58 <spnda> "NFO file missing header lines and version info" what does this mean?`
17:50:40 <andythenorth> do you want some sample nfo? o_O
17:51:10 <spnda> I got some from a station set but I can't get it to work. I'd guess it'd sure help if I had multiple examples.
17:52:37 <andythenorth> Iron Horse is python -> nml -> nfo
17:52:56 <andythenorth> you can compile the nfo, or the nml there for comparison
17:53:08 <Eddi|zuHause> spnda: that's about the three lines at the top startibg with //
17:53:10 <spnda> So I guess you just do "grfcodec -e iron-horse.grf"
17:53:21 <spnda> Oh those comments... Kinda thought so
17:53:26 <andythenorth> give or take wrangling the paths
17:54:31 <andythenorth> I do grfcodec -e iron-horse.grf generated
17:55:28 <spnda> Ok yeah that atleast nearly compiles. Only misses a png file
17:55:36 <andythenorth> spnda: you probably know this, but you can also generate nfo from any given nml file
17:56:13 <nielsm> and you can disassemble any GRF back to NFO
18:00:18 <spnda> well, yay it shows up ingame
18:07:31 <spnda> What does "7 * 14 00 04 03 01 00" mean? I see it's a Action0 for feature 4 but I am not sure about the rest...
18:09:57 <andythenorth> I'd have to look it up :)
18:10:05 <andythenorth> it will be count of following bytes and stuff
18:12:02 <andythenorth> sprite num 7 * length action0 stations 3props 01info 00id
18:12:29 <andythenorth> so it's changing 3 props for station 0
18:12:38 <spnda> ah ok, and the info and id?
18:12:53 <andythenorth> how many stations to change
18:12:57 <andythenorth> and the id of the station to change
18:13:12 <spnda> Ah ok that makes sense. Thanks very much!
18:13:14 <andythenorth> (the ID of the first station)
18:13:26 <andythenorth> oof, I used to write this by hand :P
18:23:48 <rptr> how are your trains andy
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18:36:26 <nielsm> got transport tycoon (with world editor) running with FM music again
18:36:46 <nielsm> via the opl3lpt device :P so it's a genuine OPL3 but not quite as originally used
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18:59:41 <Eddi|zuHause> i've never heard of AM synthesis
19:10:39 <nielsm> I think that's sort of additive synth? it's just never called that
19:11:51 <nielsm> also woo mt32 version of the soundtrack playing through genuine mpu401 output, instead of dosbox emulated to a windows midi device
19:12:05 <nielsm> except, it's still sort of emulated since I'm running the game via windows me..........
19:12:44 <Samu> openttd just closed itself without warning
19:13:21 <Samu> looks like memory limitation isn't enough
19:15:40 <nielsm> (I still need to patch rmusic.com to work around the stupid ra-50 missing "all notes off" support)
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20:11:01 <Wolf01> I'm still writing mine.. I'm stuck at "hello world"
20:23:36 <Samu> i wrote an ai but not from scratch
20:24:46 <spnda> Is there any more information instead of just "Attempt to use invalid ID (sprite 2)"?
20:25:45 <andythenorth> there are more verbose debug modes, not sure if it makes newgrf more verbose tho
20:26:05 <nielsm> you can enable debuglevel grf=2 to get spammed a lot
20:28:53 <spnda> nielsm: is that in openttd.cfg?
20:29:04 <nielsm> commandline or in the in-game console
20:31:37 <nielsm> in the ingame console: debuglevel grf=2
20:31:45 <spnda> ok ive done that, what now?
20:31:56 <nielsm> actually... which OS are you on?
20:32:32 <nielsm> hmm, not sure you get any output then, I don't think the console window opens if you enable debug after starting the game
20:33:14 <nielsm> right forget that, make a new shortcut to openttd.exe, edit the shortcut, to the end of the "target" field add: -d grf=2
20:33:55 <nielsm> (with a space before the -d and outside any quotes around the path to the exe file)
20:34:50 <spnda> oh heck my console is being SPAMMED
20:35:29 <nielsm> it can be a good idea to empty out your newgrf folder if you want to work on your own thing and have debug output
20:36:56 <nielsm> for development I have two sets of newgrf and content_download folders I alternate between, one set is full of all kinds of dependencies, the other set is mostly empty
20:36:59 <spnda> I have one GRF loaded right now
20:37:05 <nielsm> the empty set helps a lot on startup time and debug spam
20:37:06 <spnda> I don't see any errors though.. hmm
20:37:17 <nielsm> the full set is needed to debug all kinds of savegames
20:38:44 <spnda> Anything I should look for in this debug log?
20:39:42 <nielsm> it's probably most interesting to see what it thinks of your action2 and action1, if it's attempting to pick a wrong/invalid sprite for something
20:40:04 <nielsm> oh... wait no I read your error message wrong
20:40:18 <nielsm> "attempt to use invalid ID" that's an action 0 probably
20:40:50 <spnda> It's "2 * 14 00 14 02 01 00 08 "TRSP" 09 01"
20:41:03 <spnda> Idk, is my sprite length maybe wrong?
20:41:35 <nielsm> there is no feature 14
20:42:50 <nielsm> the id there is 00 (after 02 01) but since I don't know what it's supposed to be I can't know any more
20:44:42 <spnda> Aren't the "02 01 00" just basic identifiers, like "amount property id".
20:45:56 <nielsm> 2 properties for 1 id, the first id to change properties for is 0
20:46:31 <nielsm> and if it's saying "invalid id" that's probably the 0 that's invalid
20:47:20 <nielsm> unless it's the property 09 that probably sets which original ID to override?
20:47:30 <nielsm> the 01 there could be the invalid ID
20:47:55 <nielsm> also are you sure property 08 takes a fourcc code and not a numeric id?
20:48:15 <spnda> property 08 is supposed to be a DWord
20:49:43 <nielsm> at that point I'd be hooking a debugger up to a debug build of ottd and trace through the newgrf loader, see what it's doing
20:51:49 <nielsm> especially if it's an experimental new feature
21:10:56 <spnda> Is there maybe something I *need* to define other than Action0?
21:11:11 <spnda> I haven't defined handlers for Action1/2 yet and also haven't added them into the NFO file
21:11:40 <Eddi|zuHause> spnda: tried feeding it through nforenum?
21:12:00 <spnda> Eddi|zuHause: well that's going to complain on feature 14, isn't it?
21:12:55 <spnda> Yeah, I think it did. Got a linter error on sprite 2-4
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21:20:15 <spnda> Ok actually I had a typo and was always returning CIR_INVALID_ID.... stupid me lol
21:21:35 <nielsm> hence why hooking up a debugger is a good idea when you're debugging ;)
21:25:16 <Eddi|zuHause> spnda: there used to be some customizable data files for nforenum
21:25:24 <Eddi|zuHause> but i've never dealt with that
21:37:31 <andythenorth> brown cylindrical wagons tend towards looking like a poo
21:49:01 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i'm fairly sure some people would actually have some fun with that
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