IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2020-01-01
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00:41:35 <TrueBrain> Happy new year guys :)
00:53:00 <greeter> still 2019 here but happy new year to everyone when it arrives :-)
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01:11:19 <greeter> it was the merriest of christmas' here
01:11:30 <greeter> err, well, for me, i wasn't here christmas lol
01:12:49 <Markk> It's been 2020 for over an hour here now. I wonder if this is the start of the Roaring Twenties.
01:13:15 <greeter> i think it has to be the 20ies everywhere first :-P
01:13:54 <Markk> I think you have to high standards. :)
01:14:13 <greeter> i don't want these to be the roaring 20ies because i remember what came after them
01:14:36 <Markk> But I think we're heading for a new recession, unfortunately.
01:14:58 <Samu> wow factorio made it into one of the best selling games, i didn't know that
01:15:03 <greeter> that's quite possible. the last recession was more than 10 years ago so we're about due. the writing isn't much on the walls though, yet
01:15:06 <Samu> i heard you guys talking about it
01:15:08 <Markk> For me, we could wait until the 30's, but it's not up to me, it's up to the higher power. Wall Street.
01:17:26 <Markk> It's a heavy topic we don't need to go in to now. We can think about it tomorrow, when we wake up with a banging hangover. :D
01:18:18 <greeter> i won't have that problem personally
01:18:43 <Markk> That's great and same here!
01:19:00 <Samu> wasn't there a factorio dev on this chat?
01:19:28 <Markk> Then we can wake up sober and not hungover and think about the possibility of an economic crisis within the foreseeable future!
01:19:52 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 opened pull request #7888: Fix #7787: missing beep for some main toolbar buttons https://git.io/JeAA0
01:20:30 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7888: Fix #7787: missing beep for some main toolbar buttons https://git.io/JeAAu
01:21:00 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 dismissed a review for pull request #7888: Fix #7787: missing beep for some main toolbar buttons https://git.io/JeAAu
01:21:00 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #7888: Fix #7787: missing beep for some main toolbar buttons https://git.io/JeAA0
01:21:31 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7888: Fix #7787: missing beep for some main toolbar buttons https://git.io/JeAAz
01:22:06 <glx> too many similar numbers :)
01:22:11 <Markk> spnda: Seems like a very strange game.
01:22:18 <Markk> Never heard of it before.
01:22:57 <spnda> I don't think you meant to tag, ddid you?
01:23:22 <glx> I'm sure there's other places with missing beeps, but I don't want to check everywhere :)
01:23:27 <Markk> He has already left, that's why. :)
01:23:32 <Markk> spnda: Sorry about that.
01:25:04 <LordAro> Markk: it's a good game
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02:18:05 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rofl0r commented on issue #6896: game crashes on first autosave if compiled without lzo but with lzma https://git.io/JeA1Z
02:18:05 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rofl0r closed issue #6896: game crashes on first autosave if compiled without lzo but with lzma https://git.io/JeA1Z
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10:21:09 <andythenorth> so first commit of the decade?
10:30:50 <Eddi|zuHause> "fix obiwan in docs"
10:31:27 <andythenorth> 'fix copyright notice on website'
10:31:33 <andythenorth> definitely done that one before ^
10:34:20 <andythenorth> Copyright © 2005-{{ site.time | date: '%Y' }} OpenTTD Team
10:34:29 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh merged pull request #7888: Fix #7887: missing beep for some main toolbar buttons https://git.io/JeAA0
10:34:31 <andythenorth> so I guess we just need to trigger a redeploy
10:34:43 <andythenorth> [static site innit]
10:36:03 <Eddi|zuHause> fun fact: if you use instead of %Y, you can get the new year a few days early :p
10:53:33 <nielsm> depending on weekday of 1/1
10:59:07 <Eddi|zuHause> what's the dividing point? thursday?
11:00:38 <andythenorth> does OpenTTD support alternative calendar formats?
11:01:16 <Eddi|zuHause> no, it's fixed as "backdated gregorian calendar with year 0"
11:01:52 <Eddi|zuHause> which is at least 3 wtfs stacked on top of each other :p
11:03:08 <andythenorth> introduce 24 month calendar, daylength objective achieved :P
11:03:14 <andythenorth> just 12 new names needed
11:03:43 <Eddi|zuHause> i think we had that discussion already
11:04:58 <andythenorth> presumably timetables depend on the existing 12 months? o_O
11:05:19 <Eddi|zuHause> timetables are tick-based
11:05:23 <andythenorth> how is that realistic?
11:05:32 <andythenorth> train companies run different timetables in different months
11:07:01 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a 24h clock patch that is completely independent from daylength, that helps with timetabling oddities
11:07:24 <Eddi|zuHause> ... like the fact that you can't have padding so a timetable always starts at the first of the month
11:07:51 <andythenorth> I thought timetables were for accurately re-creating RL trains?
11:08:01 <andythenorth> it's quite common in model trains to run to a timetable
11:08:06 <Eddi|zuHause> ... but then people wanted to synchronize daylength with the clock which lead to gargantuan daylength factors
11:08:35 <andythenorth> maybe we started from the wrong point
11:08:40 <andythenorth> RL trains run to diagrams
11:09:11 <andythenorth> ooops, we're not going to rebuild the game to be a train simulator
11:09:17 * andythenorth pulls back from the cliff
11:09:20 <LordAro> andythenorth: when there's something to update, the copyright will be updated :p
11:09:41 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there's at least half a dozen timetabling patches
11:10:34 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: including one that adds diagrams
11:11:31 <andythenorth> I had an idea about rebuilding the game around a real-time clock first
11:13:20 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you should start with eliminating the original daylength of 74 ticks, which is a really awkward number because it doesn't have useful prime factors
11:13:48 <andythenorth> was it based on something esoteric but relevant at the time?
11:14:27 <Eddi|zuHause> we likely just inherited it from CS
11:15:48 <Eddi|zuHause> also, i just learned that today is CS' birthday
11:17:31 <Eddi|zuHause> also that i'm now older than he was when he programmed TT
11:17:35 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #7889: [Request] Company rating via Server Admin Port https://git.io/JeAhZ
11:18:25 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7376: More than max_no_competitors could be created in network games https://git.io/Jexfc
11:19:15 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #7550: Add: Screenshot window (& simplify the about/help DropDown) https://git.io/fjGP1
11:23:51 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7880: Fix: Remove some redundant steps during world generation https://git.io/JexfR
11:42:07 <LordAro> seems that settingsgen does not update the output file if the contents haven't actually changed, causing make to rerun the rule for every build (the ini files have been touched by git or whatever, but haven't otherwise changed)
11:42:32 <LordAro> michi_cc: any idea why e7bb220fdd8 (r22254) was necessary? :)
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12:15:13 <andythenorth> Gronk! I used it
12:15:19 <andythenorth> 400hp, 565t train
12:15:30 <andythenorth> it does travel at maximum speed though, downhill
12:25:17 <Samu> LordAro, #7376 is trying to generate the correct number of AIs in multiplayer, unless that revert did some magic
12:49:55 <LordAro> Samu: put it in the PR
12:55:50 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #7376: More than max_no_competitors could be created in network games https://git.io/JexJA
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13:00:27 <Samu> but TrueBrain insisted it should be DAY_TICKS
13:01:15 <LordAro> TrueBrain is usually right with these things
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13:04:26 <Samu> it makes the whole point of the fix useless
13:04:58 <Samu> it was a fix with checking tickly in mind
13:12:14 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #7376: More than max_no_competitors could be created in network games https://git.io/JexU8
14:16:15 <Pikka> andythenorth, maximum speed when pushed off a cliff?
14:56:06 <Wolf01> Hmmm, the year started just fine. The car doesn't start. And I need it to get to work tomorrow.
15:11:12 <Wolf01> So python 2.7 is officially dead?
15:13:00 <michi_cc> LordAro: I think because Visual Studio looks at modification time or something and not the contents to decide whether to rebuild.
15:15:38 <LordAro> michi_cc: but that's what make does
15:17:01 <LordAro> can't imagine VS uses the contents instead...
15:17:21 <michi_cc> Ah, I don't mean the settingsgen step, I mean the EXE build step after it. I faintly remeber there to be a problem that VS would rebuild the EXE every time.
15:18:23 <michi_cc> I'm not on my main computer right now so I can't search the old IRC logs from back then.
15:19:27 <michi_cc> It is of course entirely possible that this was VS problem that has long vanished with the current VS version.
15:29:19 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #7486: Fix: AI/GS settings with the flag SCRIPTCONFIG_RANDOM could be altered after loading from a savegame. https://git.io/Jexkf
15:47:22 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7486: Fix: AI/GS settings with the flag SCRIPTCONFIG_RANDOM could be altered after loading from a savegame. https://git.io/fjtsp
15:51:28 <Samu> _switch_mode != SM_LOAD_GAME does exactly that
15:53:06 <Samu> scripts that have yet to start will need to run throught AddRandomDeviation and SCRIPTCONFIG_RANDOM
15:53:40 <Samu> I'm not sure I understand the question
15:54:43 <Samu> _switch_mode != SM_LOAD_GAME is true for scripts that will have to start
15:57:11 <Samu> the problem was with random ai's start_date specifically
15:59:24 <Samu> while random, start_date is pushed as extra config, and deviated, and once it changed to the actual script, it would rerun the changeset again, with both the script specific settings, but this would include start_date again
16:01:47 <Samu> commit 2 added the start_date parameter to random ai (before it's actually a script) so that it could be deviated
16:02:33 <Samu> but by doing so, once the script was chosen, the changeset would run again, but now since it includes start_date, it would then be deviated a 2nd time
17:03:18 <TrueBrain> hmm .. and there have been 0 complains about the www.openttd.org migration .. I guess that is a good thing :D
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17:32:20 <TrueBrain> might be interesting
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17:40:37 <TrueBrain> hmm, LGTM fails to build because it auto-installs allegro .. lets disable allegro for it for now :)
17:43:45 <LordAro> plenty of extra CI things we can do for nml
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18:28:13 <andythenorth> Better Living Through Chemistry
18:28:18 <andythenorth> the FIRS economy I want to make
18:28:26 <andythenorth> but I'm pissing around with Horse tank wagons :P
19:04:19 <andythenorth> better than Horsing around with piss tank wagons I guess
19:06:11 <supermop_Home> half a dozen of one
19:06:49 <supermop_Home> just don't give us a new 'horse piss' economy
19:07:39 <andythenorth> urea and ammonia will feature in BLTC
19:14:48 <andythenorth> supermop_Home: 'chemicals tanker' (as now)...or 'shiny tanker' ?? :P
19:14:56 * andythenorth obsessing on names
19:22:26 <andythenorth> I tried 'Stainless Tanker' but there's a Stainless Steel cargo which is not carried by this vehicle, might be confusing
19:23:08 <nielsm> corrugated tanker, maybe?
19:24:20 <nielsm> you should be able to make a new PR from the same branch though
19:24:21 <Samu> I totally forgot about it, but I already fixed it
19:25:15 <Samu> the blabla-brach-name was force-pushed or recreated. it says
19:26:56 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick opened pull request #7890: Fix #6452: Reset only editable and visible settings from GUI https://git.io/Jexqi
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19:45:54 <DorpsGek_III> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
20:47:15 <Samu> what does openttd do when there's 2 of the same AI with the same version
20:48:14 <Samu> CivilAI-25 has a bug function GetVersion() { return 24; }
20:48:30 <Samu> GetVersion is the same as CivilAI-24
20:49:42 <Samu> openttd treats it as 24, but there's already another 24
20:50:04 <Samu> online content says there's an update
20:50:50 <Samu> no matter how many times I download, there's always an update
20:50:58 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/DorpsGek] TrueBrain opened pull request #13: Fix: check for URLs including trailing slash https://git.io/JexOO
20:52:28 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/DorpsGek] LordAro approved pull request #13: Fix: check for URLs including trailing slash https://git.io/JexOs
20:52:48 <TrueBrain> that is quick LordAro :P
20:52:59 <LordAro> TrueBrain: i just happened to look at my laptop :p
20:53:07 <LordAro> should integrate LGTM with the CI
20:53:13 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/DorpsGek] TrueBrain merged pull request #13: Fix: check for URLs including trailing slash https://git.io/JexOO
20:53:19 <TrueBrain> yeah, I was thinking the same
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20:53:32 <TrueBrain> OpenTTD really first needs CMake support to do it properly
20:53:37 <TrueBrain> other projects are easier
20:53:40 <LordAro> some code formatter would be good as well
20:53:51 <LordAro> TrueBrain: well when we branch for 1.10... ;)
20:54:12 <TrueBrain> flake8 is already running on the code, but that is a linter
20:54:14 <LordAro> i was playing around with clang-format a bit yesterday - it's still not quite flexible enough to do what we want
20:54:19 <TrueBrain> not sure there is a prettyfier?
20:54:29 <LordAro> `black` is pretty good as far as python formatting goes
20:54:47 <LordAro> it's "nice" because basically the only configuration option it has is line length
20:54:49 <TrueBrain> don't know it; let me check :D
20:54:58 <LordAro> everything else is just "no do it this way"
20:56:23 <TrueBrain> meh, black uses double-quotes instead of single-quotes
20:56:59 <LordAro> there might be an option for quotes as well
20:57:08 <LordAro> and yeah, that is a bit odd
20:57:09 <TrueBrain> you ... just ... said .... :P
20:57:36 <LordAro> it's rather less configurable than clang-format, anyway
20:57:46 <TrueBrain> the diff with DorpsGek is minor :P
20:59:01 <TrueBrain> and the quotes, I don't really care .. single or double, as long as it is the same everywhere
20:59:08 <TrueBrain> so yeah, black might be a nice addition
20:59:24 <TrueBrain> but first .. I need to migrate the rest of the stuff to AWS ... *stay focused*
21:00:42 <LordAro> there is an option for skipping string "normalisation", but not one or the other it seems
21:01:08 <TrueBrain> flake8 already makes sure they are all the same tbh
21:01:25 <TrueBrain> how do I retrigger a project on LGTM .. hmm
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21:43:44 <Samu> ---------------------------
21:43:44 <Samu> ---------------------------
21:43:44 <Samu> Assertion failed at line 227 of d:\a\1\s\src\road.h: roadtype < ROADTYPE_END
21:43:44 <Samu> ---------------------------
21:43:46 <Samu> ---------------------------
21:44:38 <spnda> just wondering, any difference in using n > 2 or n >= 3?
21:45:37 <Samu> i forget these ppl like to load bloated mods
21:46:05 <LordAro> spnda: in general? no
21:46:39 <LordAro> (technically speaking a C++ object might do different things for < & <= operators, but that basically never happens)
21:48:54 <LordAro> it hangs the client when saving a large game
21:49:12 <LordAro> (and also saves twice in several cases)
21:50:07 <Samu> newgrf is not online even
21:55:16 <spnda> anyone know if there will ever be a openttd 2.0 or will it go on as 1.11, 1.12, 1.13...
21:55:54 <nielsm> LordAro, mainly that I don't understand the implications of one or another, I think
21:56:10 <andythenorth> if it's semver, 2.0 won't happen any time soon
21:56:32 <nielsm> in my mind, there is one copy of the game data and if you do a threaded save then what happens if the game attempts to load the title screen save meanwhile?
21:56:39 <andythenorth> I'd bet against a 2.0 unless there's a fork
21:56:57 <andythenorth> because we pretty much guarantee savegame compatibility
21:57:08 <andythenorth> and because nobody will want to break newgrf or AI or GS APIs
21:57:18 <andythenorth> so there will never be a trigger for 2.0 under semver
21:57:22 <nielsm> imo 2.0 pretty much just means "lots of stuff changed since 1.0"
21:57:47 <nielsm> like, when cdist was added that could have been 2.0
21:57:58 <spnda> oh 1.11 is already a milestone
21:58:03 <andythenorth> I find semver too strict and religious personally but eh
21:58:48 <LordAro> nielsm: most of the SaveOrLoad calls appear to be threaded
21:58:49 <nielsm> yeah for a game 2.0 does not (and should not) mean "totally incompatible with previous versions"
21:58:54 <LordAro> except for a couple, whcih is a bit weird
21:59:11 <nielsm> it just means "very different gameplay-wise from the 1.0 version"
22:00:24 <nielsm> semver is a library versioning thing, not an application versioning thing
22:00:38 <spnda> I would say 2.0 is a lot of improvements and changes vs the 1.0 version
22:00:39 <nielsm> for applications, version numbers are purely PR
22:00:56 <andythenorth> we do major versions so we have something to talk about
22:05:48 <nielsm> what are the major milestones in ottd? the "good enough for 1.0" condition was opengfx complete, right?
22:10:41 <peter1138> Whatever was convenient at the time.
22:11:16 <nielsm> may as well do the java thing and just remove the leading 1.
22:11:32 <nielsm> internal version 1.10, PR version 10
22:11:44 <peter1138> And Chrome, and Firefox, and... yeah...
22:16:25 <milek7_> linux just bumps major version for no reason
22:21:08 <andythenorth> I had a horrible idea
22:37:53 <nielsm> so horrible it can not be spoken
22:43:38 <andythenorth> cargo subtypes are widely used to set vehicle colour choices
22:44:01 <andythenorth> but they suck because they are often a large set of menu options
22:44:25 <andythenorth> n cargos * p colour choices, possibly with x different options for different vehicles in the consist
22:45:02 <andythenorth> if there was a menu with only the subtypes, and not the cargos, it would be more usable :P
22:45:13 <andythenorth> it's horrible, and not how the implementation works but eh
22:49:20 <nielsm> a matrix selection thing?
22:49:32 <nielsm> cargos in rows and variations in columns?
22:49:44 <nielsm> and unavailable combinations are grayed out
22:49:52 <andythenorth> that's interesting, but matrixes have usability challenges
22:49:55 <andythenorth> interesting though
22:50:37 <andythenorth> the subtypes route is....hmm
22:50:46 <andythenorth> well I didn't want to use it :)
22:52:21 <nielsm> what we really need is a new GUI to customise the visual design of a train
22:52:36 <nielsm> separate from the functional design
22:52:48 <Samu> give openttd paintbrush tools
22:53:01 <nielsm> hmm... yeah actually that could work
22:53:10 <andythenorth> this last month I've tried 2 or 3 approaches to different vehicle colour schemes in Horse
22:53:15 <andythenorth> to see what works etc
22:53:28 <nielsm> depending on the cars currently in the depot, build a palette of available variations, and you can select them and "repaint" cars individually
22:53:41 <andythenorth> 'apply colour scheme'
22:54:30 <andythenorth> I previously had the idea of just grouping vehicles in the buy / auto-replace menus
22:54:40 <andythenorth> we have lots of IDs, each colour scheme can use an ID
22:54:45 <nielsm> and then you get players confused how that relates to company liveries and group liveries
22:55:07 <andythenorth> I'm kind of in favour of the groups thing again
22:55:30 <andythenorth> so a vehicle just has an optional 'parent vehicle ID' property
22:55:35 <andythenorth> then the rest is UI changes
22:55:53 <nielsm> so many bad ideas :D and I'm off to bed, work thursday and friday
22:55:53 <andythenorth> minimal newgrf change, minimal AI/GS change, minimal OpenTTD change
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