IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2019-10-26
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00:44:22 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro opened pull request #7802: Fix #7733: Crash when removing a dock next to an industry without a station https://git.io/JeEYi
00:50:18 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #7801: Error messages for reaching landscaping/tree planting/tile clearing limits are not mapped to the Script API. https://git.io/JeEme
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01:05:15 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 approved pull request #7802: Fix #7733: Crash when removing a dock next to an industry without a station https://git.io/JeEYh
01:08:11 <LordAro> i bet the title screen looks ridiculous
01:08:28 <glx> hehe it should look empty
01:09:22 <NGC3982> but it scales nice and correctly
01:09:36 <NGC3982> this game is luckily above resolution
01:10:06 <glx> the game just uses what it gets
01:11:11 <glx> and a huge amount of memory for this screen size
01:14:09 <NGC3982> or do you mean GPU memory?
01:14:55 <glx> we don't use GPU directly
01:34:46 <glx> and I edited the commit message during squash
01:35:04 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #7802: Fix #7733: Crash when removing a dock next to an industry without a station https://git.io/JeEYi
01:35:05 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro closed issue #7733: Null pointer dereference in RemoveDockingTile when adjacent to industry https://git.io/Jeqr9
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01:41:36 * LordAro wonders if it's necessary to do a complete recompile everytime you recompile
01:41:46 <LordAro> everytime you change branch*
01:42:07 <LordAro> i change branch quite a lot
01:42:24 <glx> else it's not "debuggable"
01:43:00 <glx> it yells about missing pdb in link stage
01:44:49 <LordAro> glx: since you're on windows, do you want to have a go at reproducing #7646? I can't reproduce it on Linux
01:45:13 <glx> cleaning my branches, but I can check
01:59:13 <glx> debug started, downloading symbols
01:59:24 <glx> because it's a 32bit build
01:59:39 <glx> and I rarely debug in 32bit
02:02:15 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #7646: Random map generation failure crashes the game (dedicated server). https://git.io/fjPBl
02:02:35 <glx> at least there's a trace now
02:09:52 <glx> but the trace doesn't really help
02:25:31 <glx> hmm I don't want to bruteforce a failing seed
03:55:29 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 opened pull request #7805: Fix #7646: incomplete cleanup for non-threaded world generation failure https://git.io/JeE3o
03:56:03 <glx> needs more work, but the crash is fixed :)
04:51:57 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #7805: Fix #7646: incomplete cleanup for non-threaded world generation failure https://git.io/JeEsr
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08:36:12 <andythenorth> this might be bad
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09:04:47 <andythenorth> japan eh nielsm ?
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09:34:06 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro requested changes for pull request #7804: Fix: spelling/grammar in script_tile.hpp https://git.io/JeEn3
09:38:03 <andythenorth> oh LordAro is awake :D
09:51:49 * andythenorth wonders what to do today
10:56:28 <Eddi|zuHause> the same thing we do every day?
10:57:39 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on pull request #7805: Fix #7646: incomplete cleanup for non-threaded world generation failure https://git.io/JeEcG
10:58:17 <nielsm> right now mostly finishing up the vacation cage for the birds, soon need to trick them both into climbing in and stay there
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11:02:32 <andythenorth> does someone look after them?
11:02:46 <nielsm> they'll stay with my mom
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11:13:00 <andythenorth> so GitHub pages can do this
11:13:24 <andythenorth> every .md file gets rendered by Jekyll and a template of our choice applied
11:13:36 <andythenorth> but I think it's probably a bad idea
11:14:07 <andythenorth> (this is a one-click setting change in the GitHub UI btw, no other changes needed)
11:20:43 <LordAro> andythenorth: why a bad idea?
11:26:35 <andythenorth> creates a 3rd location for docs, reduce canonical-ness
11:26:43 <andythenorth> wiki, github, github pages
11:27:28 <andythenorth> I want us to turn GH Pages on so we can serve the html landscape files though
11:27:39 <andythenorth> but maybe not with a full Jekyll theme
11:28:05 <Eddi|zuHause> convert them into .md? :p
11:28:34 <andythenorth> you can, I won't
11:28:39 <andythenorth> whitespace trauma
11:29:37 <Eddi|zuHause> why do i bother starting games that i know won't run properly?
11:36:11 <Eddi|zuHause> it's still not even made it to the main menu
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12:24:19 <andythenorth> is it ottd time?
12:51:32 <nielsm> :( I had to catch one of the birds with a net, he couldn't be convinved to get into the cage on his own
13:29:10 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: you are aware we already run GitHub Pages right? Well, we callit Jekyll, make it a docker, and run it on our own infra ... but ... it is literally the same :P Only not the place it ispublished
13:30:25 <TrueBrain> 11:26 <andythenorth> creates a 3rd location for docs, reduce canonical-ness <- the whole reasonw e have stuff like forum.openttd.org, newgrf., grfcrawler., etc etc, is to avoid that issue, while still using different places
13:30:29 <TrueBrain> it is a very easy fix
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13:37:02 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: so are you +/-1 to GH Pages? I am +/-0
13:37:22 <andythenorth> this was just to get 2 html files published on the web without a weird intermediary service
13:37:26 <TrueBrain> no, I don't care about GitHub Pages one way or the other
13:37:31 <TrueBrain> I was just mentioning that your reasoning failed :D
13:37:55 <TrueBrain> it doesn't create 3 locations for docs :)
13:38:01 <TrueBrain> we can tackle that numerous of other ways :P
13:38:14 <andythenorth> it creates github pages and github rendered markdown
13:38:18 <LordAro> 3 locations isn't the issue, it's 3 different sources
13:38:28 <andythenorth> no it's 2 sources, one rendered twice
13:38:30 <LordAro> or at least, that's what i thought andythenorth had the issue with
13:38:48 <andythenorth> the issue is 2 locations for links from the wiki, it creates confusion
13:38:53 <TrueBrain> well, seems andythenorth talks too ambigious in his complaints :D
13:39:03 <TrueBrain> 2 locations is a solvable issue
13:39:06 <andythenorth> I often omit tedious backstory
13:39:11 <andythenorth> how do you solve two locations?
13:39:17 <TrueBrain> in fact, generating HTML is a solvable issue, in many many ways :P
13:39:28 <TrueBrain> so it is easier to just say what you would like, and we make it magically happen :D
13:40:16 <andythenorth> that is the entirety of my GH Pages question
13:40:42 <TrueBrain> do you want it on the wiki, or some location?
13:40:53 <andythenorth> the 2 linked docs *cannot* be on the wiki
13:40:57 <andythenorth> they have to travel with src
13:41:08 <TrueBrain> they CAN be on the wiki; the question more is if you want that :)
13:41:17 <andythenorth> well they cannot if we have any sense
13:41:23 <andythenorth> what's our score on sense recently?
13:41:54 <TrueBrain> well, nothing to do with sense
13:41:58 <TrueBrain> just a lack of imagination, I am afraid :)
13:42:07 <TrueBrain> we used to have more dynamic content in the wiki
13:42:12 <TrueBrain> just pages you couldn't edit via the wiki
13:42:15 <TrueBrain> but were available on the wiki
13:42:21 <TrueBrain> just a matter of perspective
13:42:22 <andythenorth> and PRs can update the wiki? o_O
13:42:40 <TrueBrain> more important question first is what the source is
13:42:50 <TrueBrain> are the landscape grids on GitHub and do they need to stay there
13:43:01 <andythenorth> we can speak only of those 2 docs, pls?
13:43:03 <TrueBrain> for example, take our NoAI API docs .. they are in the source
13:43:05 <andythenorth> ignoring all other concerns
13:43:08 <TrueBrain> yet they are not published there
13:43:10 <TrueBrain> it is like .. magic :D
13:43:22 <TrueBrain> where did you took a turn I did not take?
13:43:47 <andythenorth> talking to TB is the most like a RL conversation I get in irc :P
13:44:05 <andythenorth> I have a TB avatar animating in my head :P
13:44:20 <TrueBrain> but if you have the grid in the source, so on GitHub
13:44:24 <andythenorth> especially as I have no idea what anyone looks like :P
13:44:41 <TrueBrain> in general, you can do two things: publish it on a website, like we do for many other things (API, binaries, and even our website)
13:44:51 <TrueBrain> or you can have some dynamic component fetch the source to publish the result
13:44:56 <andythenorth> ok, so my backstory: (1) grid needs updated if map array changes (2) we are -1 on auto-generating docs from src
13:44:57 <TrueBrain> in mediawiki, you can use the latter more easier than the first
13:45:14 <TrueBrain> 2) is irrelevant for this story, not?
13:45:34 <andythenorth> well if it was my project, I'd delete the html files and generate from src
13:45:36 <andythenorth> src knows the bits
13:45:40 <LordAro> is (2) correct? i would've thought we would prefer autogenerating such docs
13:45:45 <TrueBrain> okay, but you just said to scope it to the two documents :P
13:46:14 <TrueBrain> LordAro: it can be fun, to autogenerate it :D Could even detect cases where we misuse bits, if done correctly
13:46:20 <TrueBrain> but it would be a project on its own, to do so
13:47:17 <andythenorth> ok so far I see the following proposals (1) do nothing, it's fine (2) turn on GH Pages (3) make those html files appear in the wiki (4) something else?
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13:47:39 <TrueBrain> 2) is not a goal, it is a solution
13:47:50 <andythenorth> I don't like it for some reason
13:47:57 <andythenorth> GH Pages is cool but weird
13:47:59 <TrueBrain> it is not about liking or not liking
13:48:05 <TrueBrain> you are not solving anything by just publishing them
13:48:07 <TrueBrain> you have a goal in mind
13:48:13 <TrueBrain> "using GH Pages" is not a goal
13:48:16 <andythenorth> that's the reason then
13:48:19 <TrueBrain> my goal is not to get in my car, my goal is to get somewhere
13:48:31 <TrueBrain> so you have a source
13:48:39 <andythenorth> we have a source
13:48:40 <TrueBrain> and you want something with it .. publish it on the wiki? is that the goal?
13:48:45 <TrueBrain> or are we solving an issue that does not exist?
13:49:09 <andythenorth> I want our docs to be Good Enough
13:49:15 <TrueBrain> because grading GH Pages on something without that something being defined is just looking for something to do :) Fine with me btw :P
13:49:25 <TrueBrain> is our wiki good enugh?
13:49:29 <andythenorth> it's better than it was
13:49:38 <TrueBrain> so if you want this in the wiki, 2 choices
13:49:40 <andythenorth> I drove a bus through the dev section
13:49:54 <TrueBrain> or add a dynamic page that shows the HTML
13:50:26 <andythenorth> we did (me and frosch) look at adding those docs to doxygen, but it wasn't trivially done
13:50:41 <TrueBrain> you are thinking too complex :)
13:50:53 <TrueBrain> those docs on that page, are not what they look like :P
13:51:11 <andythenorth> oh I see, you mean you have control of a webserver? :P
13:51:47 <TrueBrain> if you want a nice link to show those two grid pages, I am pretty sure we can make them
13:51:58 <andythenorth> this is like the last docs question I have btw, before the Great Readme Rewrite
13:52:15 <TrueBrain> but one can also wonder if the html file is the right source for this
13:52:21 <TrueBrain> as .. well .. updating it is kinda annoying :D
13:52:22 <andythenorth> one can, I didn't :)
13:52:29 <andythenorth> turns out rewriting README required cleaning up all the destinations for links first :D
13:52:56 <TrueBrain> basically, what I tried to say in the start of this conversation: where/how things are published, we can fix that, really, we can
13:53:01 <TrueBrain> we have been doing that for 15+ years :)
13:53:14 <TrueBrain> not much is what it seems .. we link all kind of different pieces of information together
13:53:23 <TrueBrain> just state what you would like, and we make it happen :)
13:54:16 <andythenorth> I have all the power? :o
13:54:50 <andythenorth> I would like a cookie :P
13:55:28 <TrueBrain> as many cookies as you would like
13:55:32 <TrueBrain> anything else sir? :D
13:55:45 <andythenorth> I would like 2 urls that the 2 html files appear on, rendered as html in the browser
13:55:56 <TrueBrain> but no, really; if you tell me that those two HTMLs stay in the source, and you want them properly in the wiki, we can make that happen
13:56:34 <andythenorth> but it relies on unknown 3rd party service, not usually a wise idea
13:56:51 <andythenorth> the result is achieved
14:01:07 <TrueBrain> I will fix that properly some day :P
14:03:19 <TrueBrain> there, even fixed the links
14:08:19 <andythenorth> so do we actually want monthly dev posts?
14:08:31 <nielsm> they aren't really getting written
14:08:38 <andythenorth> I wonder if it's like a new year's resolution: well intended but not gonna happen
14:08:41 <nielsm> someone asked for them, we tried making them, it isn't working well on our end
14:09:11 <andythenorth> the approach we have isn't going to work, for multiple reasons
14:09:38 <andythenorth> they're over-engineered for what they are
14:09:51 <andythenorth> and open source can't deliver anything to a regular cadence
14:11:05 <andythenorth> apart from historical reasons, do we need news on the website at all?
14:11:10 <andythenorth> we could just use forums + reddit
14:12:05 <LordAro> i've never been fans of places that "out sourced" their release announcements
14:12:06 <nielsm> perhaps not, as long as there is an RSS/atom feed of releases I think it'd be fine
14:12:21 <nielsm> then the front page could also be devoted to showing the game instead of being a blog
14:12:51 <nielsm> at least, the news/blog don't need to be the 90% content element on the front page
14:13:05 <frosch123> andythenorth: for some reason i do not understand, news on the website are read by way more people than forums
14:13:13 <peter1138> LordAro, any riding today?
14:13:21 <LordAro> peter1138: yorkshire is cold and wet
14:13:49 <peter1138> Don't think anyone here is doing riding today.
14:14:20 <LordAro> only one rider on my strava this morning
14:14:40 <andythenorth> nielsm: I am kinda planning to....redo the website anyway :)
14:15:11 <peter1138> Something else to not finish \o/
14:16:25 <andythenorth> 1.1.16 right now
14:18:03 <andythenorth> frosch123: do you have actual numbers for forums vs website?
14:18:21 <andythenorth> needs date changed
14:19:14 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] LordAro dismissed a review for pull request #106: Create 2019-10-19-monthly-dev-post.md https://git.io/JeEr5
14:21:05 <frosch123> andythenorth: no, but i refer to pikka's fundraiser from 5 years ago
14:23:58 <andythenorth> how did news posts get written before Jekyll?
14:25:14 <andythenorth> did it require tag+release?
14:26:03 <frosch123> andythenorth: how does that matter? noone liked writing release posts before either
14:26:14 <andythenorth> I just wonder if we solved the wrong problem
14:26:44 <andythenorth> at least one objective for the website rewrite was to make it easier to add news posts
14:26:45 <glx> we switched to static for Jekyll
14:26:55 <andythenorth> so e.g. Kamnet etc could contribute
14:27:01 <frosch123> andythenorth: we transformed the problem from "few people can post news, but do not want to" to "many people could post news, but do not want to"
14:27:14 <andythenorth> actually I disagree
14:27:19 <andythenorth> I don't think the problem changed
14:27:35 <andythenorth> we previously had few people who can publish, and we currently have few people who can publish
14:27:59 <glx> yes but publishers needed to be post author too
14:28:03 <andythenorth> it was quite a lot of work, and we got a faster website and fewer weird dependencies
14:28:09 <andythenorth> but we didn't make publishing news easier
14:28:53 <andythenorth> but that's just work
14:28:59 <andythenorth> there's no result until it's published
14:29:07 <LordAro> what makes you think it should be any easier to publish?
14:29:24 <andythenorth> I am just describing current situation
14:46:25 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #7805: Fix #7646: incomplete cleanup for non-threaded world generation failure https://git.io/JeE3o
14:47:15 <glx> seems to be the right thing to do for me
15:06:19 <andythenorth> hmm enough Blitz
15:06:24 <andythenorth> what are we doing again?
15:06:51 <TrueBrain> the reason to migrate to Jekyll was to change the busfactor from 1 to N, as a FYI
15:07:08 <TrueBrain> not for the newspost, for the whole website ;)
15:10:46 <andythenorth> ok I may have imagined a set of conversations :P
15:11:03 <andythenorth> there is somewhat a fantasy world that exists in my head
15:11:36 <TrueBrain> there are additional benefits, as a bigger audience that can figure out how to post news, sure. But that is "extra", not the goal :)
15:12:37 <TrueBrain> and being able to collaborate on news, that was an unexpected addition too :)
15:14:01 <andythenorth> I thought we started it so Kamnet could post the release announcements :P
15:14:08 <andythenorth> the past is...gone
15:14:34 <andythenorth> does anybody know how to debug desyncs?
15:16:03 <andythenorth> is this all fine, or should I do something about consolidating them?
15:16:22 <TrueBrain> never said I knew :D
15:16:34 <andythenorth> you are not the entire channel :P
15:17:33 * andythenorth plays tanks until an answer is found
15:17:57 <TrueBrain> I ran out of games to play :(
15:18:24 <andythenorth> OpenTTD is quite good
15:26:51 <andythenorth> numbering and stuff is all wrong, but what else can go / be added?
15:31:50 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 updated pull request #7804: Fix: spelling/grammar in script_tile.hpp https://git.io/JeEOo
15:38:29 <andythenorth> do we support unicode emojis?
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16:05:03 <andythenorth> I just got killed in Blitz
16:06:20 <andythenorth> people with 'Pro_' in their username for a MMORG
16:06:27 <andythenorth> and always 47% players
16:07:15 <andythenorth> dude doesn't even track traverse :P
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16:21:06 <supermop_Home> maybe I should get my own andy-ish server
16:30:46 <andythenorth> we could play tank games on it? o_O
16:40:28 <glx> <andythenorth> do we support unicode emojis? <-- yes if the used font supports it, but it's not really cross player "safe"
16:41:44 <andythenorth> hmm, all I do today is play Blitz
17:41:43 <andythenorth> Blitz win rate today 10% :(
17:41:52 <andythenorth> this makes me quite ragey :(
17:51:17 <frosch123> hmm, i never saw anyone use EXIT_SUCCESS
17:52:00 <frosch123> c89, so it has always been there
18:04:57 <supermop_Home> are there nrt servers?
18:10:31 * andythenorth stops losing at Blitz
18:10:36 <andythenorth> and revises README
18:10:52 <andythenorth> it's now 8 links, and a list of where all the files are :P
18:11:18 <andythenorth> numbered tables of contents are very bad for linkrot
18:16:37 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_Home: servers have traditionally been very vary of newgrfs
18:18:07 <andythenorth> that's the list of where all the files are :P
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18:22:26 <andythenorth> 4.0 "Installing any 3rd party files into a 'shared' location has the advantage that you only need to do this step once, rather than copying the data files into all OpenTTD versions you have."
18:22:41 <andythenorth> 4.1 "Do NOT copy files included with OpenTTD into 'shared' directories (explained in the following sections) as sooner or later you will run into graphical glitches when using other versions of the game."
18:23:44 <andythenorth> oh, it means different things
18:24:03 <LordAro> it could be made clearer
18:27:24 <peter1138> Went to Tesco to buy loo roll and gnocchi. Came back £60 lighter :(
18:28:26 <Eddi|zuHause> that's some expensive toilet paper.
18:28:29 <LordAro> that's a lot of loo roll and gnocchi
18:28:37 <Eddi|zuHause> brexit panic drove the price up? :p
18:29:47 <andythenorth> stockpiling innit
18:30:58 <andythenorth> "Installing OpenTTD is fairly straightforward." [followed by complicated instructions]
18:31:10 <andythenorth> isn't OpenTTD download, double click to run?
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18:36:13 <peter1138> FFS, I just killed some boss on Doom. And in its place spawns... two bosses.
18:39:08 <andythenorth> I remember the first time I completed Episode 1, and did the final teleport
18:39:20 <andythenorth> then got ripped to shreds in the end game animation :)
18:39:31 <peter1138> This is Doom 2016, heh.
18:40:30 <andythenorth> [OS X]: "To run the original soundtrack, you will need TiMidity and Freepats"
18:44:44 * andythenorth is playing the soundtrack now :P
18:44:49 <andythenorth> without any extra stuffs
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19:23:32 <frosch123> is osx still a thing?
19:23:48 <andythenorth> I've updated the wiki a bit
19:23:54 <andythenorth> first I had to learn how to install OpenTTD :P
19:24:19 <frosch123> the last days i have seen multiple yt talks where people talk about windows, linux, android, and either mac or ios, but never both
19:25:14 <andythenorth> well it's easy for us, ios is not a thing
19:28:57 <frosch123> someone inserted the first paragraph without deleting the others
19:29:21 <andythenorth> I somewhat improved the macOS guide
19:29:38 <frosch123> does osx have the bootstrap gui?
19:29:41 <TrueBrain> If you need to explain an installer, something else went wrong
19:30:03 <andythenorth> is the first-run experience all just a bit crap? :)
19:30:12 <andythenorth> I never noticed because I 'make run'
19:30:19 <andythenorth> and I've had the TTD graphics for 15 years :P
19:30:53 <andythenorth> Using OpenGFX base graphics: Consult the OpenGFX Readme for further instructions.
19:31:08 <andythenorth> could be more user friendly?
19:31:30 <frosch123> on windows and linux opengfx installs by default
19:32:01 <frosch123> i think the whole page is silly. noone will find that page before playing the game
19:32:29 <frosch123> it's probably okay to have a "how to install original basesets", but the rest is superfluous
19:33:27 <andythenorth> it's very long and complicated imho
19:33:33 <frosch123> so: 1. Installations -> run the installer 2. How to play with original basesets -> if you are an old fart and want your childhood memorises, copy these files to the locations as mentinoned in readme 4.2
19:33:44 <andythenorth> and special case for mac users?
19:33:51 <glx> yeah linux version has a bootstrap to get opengfx
19:34:04 <andythenorth> mac users just get a 'files not found' error
19:34:12 <glx> and windows installer has the option to download it
19:34:40 <glx> because nobody implemented that to the macOS version :)
19:34:52 <andythenorth> and we don't bundle gfx because? filesize? release cycle? hassle?
19:34:59 <glx> remember we have no real macOS dev
19:35:32 <glx> we don't bundle it because it's useless to include it in each upgrade
19:35:54 <glx> once it's installed you don't need it, and you can upgrade it from the game
19:36:49 <frosch123> lol, did you see the last sentence of the "introduction"?
19:37:35 <frosch123> i think that originally refered to basesets for windows/dos palette. but somone changed it to platforms win/osx/linux
19:39:16 <andythenorth> ha ha, I fixed 'Mac OS X' to 'macOS' there without noticing it's all nonsense :)
19:39:40 <andythenorth> frosch123: are you fixing it? o_O
19:40:19 <frosch123> no, i just assume you will delete it :)
19:41:37 <andythenorth> but I feel it adds nothing :P
19:46:58 <andythenorth> and why would I move the config file?
19:47:16 <andythenorth> the mac disk image doesn't even include a config file
19:48:09 <frosch123> every now an then people want a stand-alone installation on a usb drive they can use at work
19:48:24 <andythenorth> that's covered somewhere in there
19:48:31 <frosch123> they usally care about locations
19:48:45 <andythenorth> nah there's no .cfg in the bundle
19:49:00 <glx> I said the "default" one :)
19:49:17 <glx> ie not existing and using default values
19:49:46 <andythenorth> I am just trying to figure out how to explain that the config file needs to be moved
19:50:01 <andythenorth> I don't really understand the instructions in README very much
19:50:05 <andythenorth> and I never install OpenTTD
19:50:42 <andythenorth> me writing the instructions is blind leading blind :)
19:56:27 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Wirdal commented on issue #7592: Road vehicles don't balance between multiple loading bays https://git.io/fjlL0
20:08:27 <andythenorth> so all platforms except mac have an installer?
20:08:34 <andythenorth> so README could just say 'run the installer'?
20:13:43 <LordAro> andythenorth: linux doesn't
20:14:10 <LordAro> it has an archive, or preferably "download from your friendly local package manager"
20:21:41 <frosch123> it's okay to assume that people know how to use their os
20:21:59 <frosch123> the wiki should only explain unusual things
20:22:32 <frosch123> are mac people used to have installers?
20:22:40 <frosch123> hmm, i guess most people are used to have steam :p
20:23:04 <frosch123> how did the ottd foundation go?
20:28:15 <andythenorth> I asked if it was ok to contact free software europe people
20:28:40 <andythenorth> most mac stuff is a dmg with 'drag to your disk'
20:33:04 <frosch123> ah, the damage format
20:36:59 <NGC3982> holy jesus playing factorio in 5120x1440 is a thing on it's own
20:38:30 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on issue #7592: Road vehicles don't balance between multiple loading bays https://git.io/fjlL0
20:38:31 <frosch123> you are lucky that factories usually look better in landscape layout than in portrait
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20:47:14 <andythenorth> I figure on saying less, linking more :P
20:47:24 <andythenorth> we can always add things if people find a lack later
20:49:22 <andythenorth> after 4.0 I need to rewrite more :P
20:51:50 <frosch123> do you want feedback on it? and how? or better get done with it? :)
20:52:45 <andythenorth> it's not ready for PR yet
20:52:56 <andythenorth> but general direction feedback is useful
20:53:08 <andythenorth> and any suggestions of further deletions, or important omissions :)
20:53:18 <frosch123> ok, so i won't nitpick on individual sentenes
20:53:43 <andythenorth> nah, PR better for that :)
20:53:57 <andythenorth> or just PR, fix, force-push :P
20:55:08 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on issue #7592: Road vehicles don't balance between multiple loading bays https://git.io/fjlL0
20:56:32 <frosch123> sometimes i am surprised that people added something to the readme
20:57:27 <frosch123> i guess move the "how to get some ai" to the installation section
20:57:32 <frosch123> imo delete the gs section
20:58:32 <andythenorth> I was thinking of rewriting everything about add-on content / mods
20:58:37 <frosch123> but ai installation is kind of stupid, you can't tell people to install xyz as with opengfx
20:58:38 <andythenorth> and calling it add-on content / mods
20:59:36 <frosch123> that is also fine, but ais are special since there is no default one included
20:59:56 <andythenorth> there is a thread about that
21:00:05 <frosch123> you can play ottd without newgrf or gs. but people often are confused about ais not working
21:00:31 <andythenorth> are there any AIs that work?
21:01:56 <frosch123> no idea, when people talk about ais here, they are usually developing one
21:02:55 <frosch123> new players are different to old players. new players think there is an economical challenge and ais
21:03:44 <andythenorth> top 3, pre-installed :P
21:04:22 <frosch123> make ottd phone home when an ai crashes
21:04:34 <frosch123> they pick the least-crashing ones
21:04:49 <andythenorth> just use a tracking pixel
21:04:58 <andythenorth> load a 1px png from a remote url
21:05:04 <andythenorth> no personal data
21:05:15 <andythenorth> don't read the IP addresses
21:06:26 <frosch123> what makes the forums more official than the wiki?
21:07:04 <Eddi|zuHause> why would that be a valid comparison?
21:09:42 <frosch123> i didn't want to nitpick sentences, but that one appears weird
21:10:02 <frosch123> oh, i didn't know there was a 4.3
21:11:04 <frosch123> imo delete section 8 completely
21:11:15 <andythenorth> I need to fix the wiki unofficialness
21:11:20 <andythenorth> I was confused :)
21:12:14 <frosch123> as for the credits section. i would prefer a CONTRIBUTORS.md, and adding more patchers to it
21:12:42 <andythenorth> we are growing some number of files in /
21:12:46 <andythenorth> rather than /docs
21:12:58 <frosch123> yes, the interesting stuff is in /src
21:13:13 <andythenorth> isn't CONTRIBUTORS just set(every commit author)?
21:13:33 <andythenorth> ie. github already does it
21:14:05 <frosch123> i think it is fine to distinguish maintainers/developers and "external" contributors
21:14:25 <frosch123> github misses the people from the svn age
21:14:38 <frosch123> github misses the people not on github
21:14:47 <frosch123> and for some reason github also missed people on github
21:15:20 <andythenorth> I have deleted section 8
21:15:50 <andythenorth> CONTRIBUTORS will conflate for my auto-complete with CONTRIBUTING :)
21:16:50 <LordAro> different email address?
21:17:03 <frosch123> my account is linked from the commit log
21:17:07 <andythenorth> I think the github index is broken
21:17:12 <frosch123> so, gh knows it's me
21:17:21 <andythenorth> if I click on your user in a commit, it says you have no commits
21:19:43 <frosch123> LordAro: indeed, that repo has a weird email address for me
21:20:00 <frosch123> users.noreply.github.com
21:20:28 <LordAro> i think that's a github default for when there isn't an email address?
21:20:40 <LordAro> you'll need the actual checkout to see the actual authors, i think
21:20:52 <frosch123> i just cloned it, to see it
21:20:58 <andythenorth> rewrite history, force push? :P
21:21:18 <LordAro> make a new repo, more like
21:21:24 <LordAro> it's otherwise untouched, right?
21:22:00 <frosch123> he, pm did a merge commit?
21:22:10 <LordAro> well then, definitely a new repo required :p
21:22:54 <frosch123> ok, reimport grfcodec then :)
21:25:04 <frosch123> all cloners are kind of here, so force-push is probably also fine
21:26:26 <frosch123> i planned to batch-convert all repos last week anyway
21:27:31 <andythenorth> most of readme is now a guide to your computer's filesystem :)
21:28:39 <frosch123> put a "if you were linked here, people want you to read section 4.2" at the top
21:34:04 <milek7> 'Under Windows 98 and lower it is impossible to use a dedicated server; it will fail to start. Perhaps this is for the better because those OSes are not known for their stability.'
21:34:21 <frosch123> we deleted the whole section :p
21:34:43 <frosch123> it all refers to old os
21:34:50 <frosch123> and i would not look for font stuff there
21:35:27 <frosch123> it's like the CERT portability guide lines
21:35:49 <frosch123> half of them are BS that must be burned with fire
21:36:14 <frosch123> working around bugs of compilers shipped in early 90's
21:36:36 <andythenorth> that section is gone :)
21:36:53 <andythenorth> not enough things get burned with fire :)
21:36:53 <andythenorth> it causes troubles
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21:51:54 <milek7> does os/2 port really still works? ;P
21:52:18 <glx> probably not tested for a long time now
21:53:39 <frosch123> last os/2 related commit seems to be from 2014
21:53:56 <frosch123> i guess the question is whehther there is a c++14 capable compiler
21:54:44 <frosch123> iirc there is one for dos, but none for win9x. so hard to extrapolate for os/2 :)
21:59:16 <frosch123> haha, i think that is the guy who contributed that fix in 2014 :p
22:01:00 <frosch123> so, i claim, he only maintains gcc to be able to play ottd
22:52:24 <supermop_Home> man all I did today was pay too much for a shirt
23:06:12 <nielsm> well, I'm just about out
23:06:14 <andythenorth> frosch123: any comments?
23:06:27 <nielsm> might not visit irc very much for the next two weeks :)
23:11:06 <frosch123> andythenorth: "adding" is troublesome
23:11:23 <frosch123> the content gui downloads stuff, but does not activate it
23:14:11 <frosch123> i guess 4.2 gets a lot shorter when deleting info about win < 7, and when putting stuff into a table
23:14:39 <frosch123> folder|win|linux|osx
23:15:41 <frosch123> aw, the readme mentions "32bpp sets" :)
23:17:39 <nielsm> well abase and zbase do exist
23:18:00 <frosch123> yes, but it is not about those
23:18:19 <frosch123> it's about the old 32bpp stuff for ottd 0.6 - ottd 1.1
23:18:24 <frosch123> deleted in ottd 1.2
23:19:40 <nielsm> yeah I wasn't around for that
23:19:56 <frosch123> you missed some drama :)
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