IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2019-10-21
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00:17:58 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] kernigh commented on issue #7648: Dead keys aren't interpreted correctly when typing accented letters (Linux) https://git.io/fjPh9
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10:38:28 <peter1138> ownCloud or NextCloud?
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11:04:58 <planetmaker> it's a clear 51:49 decision :P
11:08:30 <peter1138> The ownCloud android app costs money (not much) so that's a thing going for NextCloud.
11:08:57 <peter1138> Hmm, mysqld on my NAS is too old :(
11:09:04 <peter1138> It's still called mysql for a start :p
11:09:14 <planetmaker> owncloud worked for me for years. Then I switched to nextcloud a few years ago. That also works... so cannot say negative about either really
11:14:16 <peter1138> Maybe I should see about a custom image for my NAS.
11:14:23 <peter1138> It's Linux, but something old.
11:14:39 <peter1138> Mind you, it needs to be as it's an ancient ARM system with 256MB RAM.
11:15:40 <peter1138> The fact I continued typing.
11:16:07 <peter1138> Hmm, need to sort out the NFS mount, can't change file permissions currently, let alone ownership.
11:17:57 <andythenorth> what do those cloud things do?
11:18:06 <andythenorth> are they Dropbox, without the creepy invasive privacy issues?
11:20:04 <peter1138> I'd continue using Dropbox but they closed themselves off by introducing a 3 device limit.
11:20:19 <andythenorth> if we do shut down coop redmine, I have nowhere to share screenshots :P
11:20:28 <andythenorth> it's my main use for it
11:21:40 <peter1138> Hmm, openwrt images.
11:22:43 <peter1138> That looks like a high chance of bricking :p
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12:39:23 <andythenorth> gonna clean up :P
12:43:10 <andythenorth> didn't know we had that :D
12:45:49 <peter1138> Is it lunch time yet?
12:49:39 <andythenorth> although there are supply problems here :(
12:49:43 <andythenorth> I didn't go to the shop
12:53:08 <andythenorth> (right sidebar box thing)
12:54:28 <andythenorth> the sections are a bit weird, fixing
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13:10:08 <andythenorth> eh does anyone know how to wiki? :)
13:10:14 * andythenorth knows how to google :P
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13:51:36 <planetmaker> andythenorth, openttd wiki for screenshots ;)
13:52:27 <planetmaker> I'm reasonably sure you can attach them to 'issues' in your respective github repo, too
13:52:50 <andythenorth> or...so many options :)
13:53:10 <planetmaker> yeah... somewhere in the darknet on an onion server otherwise servering grass ;)
13:53:17 <planetmaker> just to name one other :P
13:54:19 <planetmaker> that's not a place but protocol ;)
13:59:05 <andythenorth> is it just an artefact of wiki automagic?
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13:59:46 <planetmaker> yes. Category pages are automatically compiled
14:01:46 <peter1138> Okay, 1pm. This is my lunch time.
14:02:01 <planetmaker> he, indeed :) bon appetit
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14:21:54 <andythenorth> I've done some stuffs
14:22:22 <andythenorth> - gathered all the dev pages I could find, linked them from sidebar
14:22:27 <andythenorth> - redone the sidebar order
14:22:40 <andythenorth> - redirected old pages and/or marked outdated
14:22:41 <Eddi|zuHause> i've just eaten something, dunno if it was lunch
14:22:56 <andythenorth> - applied dev template to ~all dev pages
14:23:12 <andythenorth> - tidied up the intro page, it doesn't need code style linked 3 times :D
14:23:19 <andythenorth> now I want lunch :P
14:32:42 <peter1138> Lunch has been lunched.
14:36:18 <andythenorth> now that I've tidied it....
14:37:23 * andythenorth thinking about how we can help newbie contributors (people who can code, but might have wtf? moment when approaching OpenTTD src)
14:41:50 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Ansbaradigeidfran commented on issue #7648: Dead keys aren't interpreted correctly when typing accented letters (Linux) https://git.io/fjPh9
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15:59:00 <peter1138> Oof, known bug? o_O
16:00:05 <Eddi|zuHause> we fixed that in master
16:00:16 <nielsm> it's only present in 1.9.3
16:00:22 <nielsm> and we're probably not making a 1.9.3
16:00:58 <nielsm> unless someone wants to devise a way to make a client-only-fixes release that's network compatible
16:01:39 <Eddi|zuHause> just silently replace the downloadable binaries with same-version ones :p
16:02:46 <Eddi|zuHause> or add another version part that will be ignored for network checks, to allow such hotfixes in the future
16:03:47 <nielsm> if we'd had a way to release client-only-fixes then 1.9.3 might not even have happened, the mac crash from bad utf8 from a server was the main reason for that imo
16:12:26 <planetmaker> I always wonder what people think when writing e-mails like "Could you please tell me if the version of Openttd 1.9.2 (or 1.9.3) is compatible with Mac OS Catalina and works in 32 bits ?". It would be faster to download and (try to) start...
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16:46:24 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on issue #7648: Dead keys aren't interpreted correctly when typing accented letters (Linux) https://git.io/fjPh9
16:51:29 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on issue #7648: Dead keys aren't interpreted correctly when typing accented letters (Linux) https://git.io/fjPh9
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17:21:48 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Ansbaradigeidfran closed issue #7648: Dead keys aren't interpreted correctly when typing accented letters (Linux) https://git.io/fjPh9
17:21:48 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Ansbaradigeidfran commented on issue #7648: Dead keys aren't interpreted correctly when typing accented letters (Linux) https://git.io/fjPh9
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17:25:43 <andythenorth> FLHerne: can you remember what approx date your Horse server game started?
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17:47:36 <FLHerne> andythenorth: I think it was 1930
17:50:01 <supermop_work> i think that's right
17:51:08 <andythenorth> hmm that invalidates my theory :P
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17:51:55 <andythenorth> I was considering deleting all of Horse before 1930, because it's boring
17:52:03 <andythenorth> and then nerfing the 1930 stuff
17:52:32 <planetmaker> he... why is the early stuff boring?
17:52:58 <andythenorth> not sure, but it is
17:53:16 <andythenorth> progression is quite hard in OpenTTD
17:53:21 <supermop_work> i usually start 1970 or 85 because i think im just going to do a quick game to test if a certain idea for a commuter line works
17:53:21 <andythenorth> there's really no scope for it
17:53:35 <supermop_work> and then get distracted by steeltown stuff
17:53:46 <supermop_work> but sometimes i start 1890s
17:54:03 <supermop_work> which i find equally fun
17:54:48 <supermop_work> there are very few pre 1900 trains in horse, but they work fine
17:55:14 <andythenorth> every game, I'm just waiting tick-tock for 1960 trains to appear
17:55:16 <supermop_work> i think the whinging you'd get removing them wouldn't be worth whqtever you think the gain would be
17:55:21 <andythenorth> the early trains are so dull
17:55:27 <supermop_work> then start in 1960
17:56:06 <supermop_work> there is always someone who wants to start with Rocket
17:56:21 <supermop_work> you basically already did the work
17:56:59 <Eddi|zuHause> [21.10.19 17:52] <andythenorth> and then nerfing the 1930 stuff <-- but wouldn't that make the problem worse?
17:57:15 <andythenorth> no, because it removes the problem by deleting it :)
17:57:40 <Eddi|zuHause> if you "nerf" the 1930 stuff, the jump in 1960 would be even higher
17:57:58 <supermop_work> upgrading from 80kph freight to 140 kph freight is more rewarding too
17:58:23 <Eddi|zuHause> (imho, 30 years between generations is to high for me anyway, but what do i know)
17:58:47 <supermop_work> "Can't Leave Well Enough Alone" is the thenorth family motto
17:59:38 <andythenorth> just trying to address the flaws
18:01:33 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a german word for this: "Verschlimmbessern"
18:01:52 <Eddi|zuHause> roughly "in an attempt to improve things, they made it worse"
18:02:02 <andythenorth> "10 untranslatable german terms"
18:02:20 <andythenorth> I had the thought in the context of road vehicles originally
18:02:25 <andythenorth> progression is so boring
18:02:52 <andythenorth> and then if there's only one generation, it solves the daylength flaw
18:03:32 <andythenorth> progression in road vehicles is just bus -> bus -> bus -> bus
18:03:38 <andythenorth> and tram -> tram -> tram -> tram
18:03:52 <andythenorth> what's the point?
18:04:06 <supermop_work> what's the point of any of this
18:05:50 <supermop_work> the buses out here on allen street are pretty much the same as 10 years ago
18:06:12 <supermop_work> except they got LED sign on the front instead of flip dot
18:06:20 <supermop_work> and wifi on board
18:06:28 <andythenorth> that's exactly what made me think of this
18:06:42 <andythenorth> I saw a bus on my travels
18:06:56 <andythenorth> and it looked quite cool, so I thought about drawing it in the game
18:07:21 <supermop_work> they certainly are not tearing it up at 200mph weaving through traffic
18:07:26 <andythenorth> but then I wondered how it transforms gameplay
18:07:31 <andythenorth> it's just a bus, right
18:07:48 <supermop_work> load faster, otherwise nothing
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18:08:02 <andythenorth> I'm not sure what my point is, but there will be one by the end :P
18:08:11 <andythenorth> possibly the idea is to delete all progression
18:08:16 <andythenorth> one generation of vehicles
18:08:51 <andythenorth> progression makes no sense
18:08:59 <nielsm> yeah just one generation with 250 year max age
18:09:07 <andythenorth> either play for 30-90 years with vehicles that are too weak
18:09:17 <andythenorth> or play later in game with vehicles that are pointlessly OP
18:09:21 <supermop_work> more HP, so get up to speed a tick faster
18:09:57 <supermop_work> i'm happy with a few more seats, and a fancier look
18:10:00 <andythenorth> I want to figure this out before I do anything on North American Horse
18:10:04 <nielsm> if you're playing to build a neat network, the historical progression thing just gets in the way
18:10:14 <nielsm> if you're playing for a challenge it may make sense
18:10:22 <andythenorth> US RL trains are really hard to build a tech tree for
18:10:24 <supermop_work> well NA has less progression
18:10:29 <nielsm> or if you're playing for a realistic-ish layout
18:10:33 <andythenorth> historically, US trains were stronger and faster than they are now
18:11:07 <supermop_work> not really a problem though
18:11:27 <supermop_work> the player can have Acela TGVs pulling coal if they want
18:11:54 * andythenorth wonders what UKRS2 does
18:12:48 <FLHerne> andythenorth: I typically start my SP games, with UKRS2, about 1915 or 1920
18:12:56 <andythenorth> yeah UKRS 2 has backwards progression
18:13:02 <andythenorth> maybe that's why it's better
18:13:44 <andythenorth> if you want to play steam, it builds up to A4 at top
18:13:54 <andythenorth> then everything is a lot weaker and slower
18:14:02 <andythenorth> then it builds up again to class 91
18:14:14 <andythenorth> it's two sets in one grf
18:14:26 <andythenorth> so you build up, then everything is nerfed, then you build up again
18:15:50 <FLHerne> Also, the 'generations' in UKRS2, to the extent it has them, are staggered between different roles
18:15:56 <andythenorth> Horse is always just ~25% increase of HP and 10% increase of speed
18:16:27 <FLHerne> So the "new mixed-traffic engine" is fast enough to also be a light express loco at the time it comes out
18:17:02 <FLHerne> While having much more TE than the current one, and some years before the next dedicated one
18:17:24 <andythenorth> not sure I see those distinctions :)
18:17:58 <andythenorth> I would always just pick the fastest engine, up to wagon speed limit
18:18:05 <andythenorth> anything else makes for bad network flow
18:18:34 <andythenorth> or to put it a different way, I don't see different roles in UKRS 2
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18:19:00 <andythenorth> maybe engines should just be universal
18:19:51 <FLHerne> andythenorth: UKRS2 has pretty restrictive wagon speed limits, so that's an important caveat :P
18:20:15 <andythenorth> I suspect that helps the sense of interesting engine choices
18:20:50 <FLHerne> andythenorth: There are always many locomotives with a top speed >= than available wagons, so it turns into a TE<->cost tradeoff
18:21:00 <andythenorth> well not really :)
18:21:05 <andythenorth> TE doesn't do anything
18:21:11 <andythenorth> HP<->cost tradeoff?
18:21:35 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> progression in road vehicles is just bus -> bus -> bus -> bus <-- the gameplay-relevant aspects of busses and trucks basically hasn't changed since the 1970s, when they approached the legal speed and size limits
18:21:36 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Maybe my having weight multipliers at 3 or something makes a difference there
18:21:56 <andythenorth> nah, TE literally makes no difference if you have enough HP / ton
18:22:12 <FLHerne> andythenorth: On a dense network where trains stop at signals fairly often, TE is quite important for freight trains
18:22:20 <andythenorth> if you don't have enough HP / ton, it makes the difference between numbers like 1mph uphill and 10mph uphill
18:22:31 <andythenorth> I've tested it extensively, and read the formula
18:22:40 <andythenorth> it has negligible gameplay effect
18:22:45 <andythenorth> showing it in the buy menu is misleading :)
18:23:06 <FLHerne> Hm, I'll have to experiment
18:23:28 <andythenorth> for two given trains of same weight, with different HP and TE, the one with the higher HP is always faster uphill, unless the TE on the other is so low it's on its knees
18:24:18 <FLHerne> UKRS2 express locos do have pretty low TE
18:24:29 <FLHerne> (the steam ones, anyway)
18:25:12 <andythenorth> ha, I thought I had a video of the tests, but apparently not
18:25:41 <FLHerne> Anyway, my original point: say genX is [75mph mixed, 90mph small express, 90mph big express], and genY is the same but [90, 110, 110]
18:25:58 <FLHerne> Not that UKRS2 is so tidy
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18:26:48 <FLHerne> But you tend to get the genY mixed loco earlier than the others, so it can keep up with existing express locos
18:27:01 <FLHerne> While being strictly better than one of them
18:28:00 <andythenorth> the intro dates are also quite distributed
18:28:03 <FLHerne> So you can use it in that role for a bit, or wait until the faster ones come along, or end up with an interestingly awkward mix of locos to upgrade later
18:28:21 <andythenorth> the lack of clear roles enables distributed intro dates
18:28:35 <andythenorth> enforcing strict roles in Horse also enforces clustered intro dates
18:28:46 <andythenorth> I've tried to mess them up a bit deliberately, and with random
18:28:55 <andythenorth> but they have to cluster, or the game breaks
18:29:11 <andythenorth> it's quite uninteresting :P
18:29:19 <FLHerne> I think Horse is very good as a "get out of my way, I have a network to build" set
18:29:26 <andythenorth> well it's based on NUTS :)
18:29:31 <andythenorth> only with UKRS inspired sprites
18:29:35 <FLHerne> Almost by definition, that means it can't be interesting?
18:30:03 <FLHerne> If it required enough thought/attention to be interesting, it wouldn't be out of the way
18:30:33 <andythenorth> NARS Horse could be different
18:30:56 <andythenorth> currently my plan is to add even more roles, by having hotshot freight
18:31:22 <andythenorth> but I think it might be a disaster
18:32:03 <andythenorth> if the problem is that fixed roles make a bad set, the solution is unlikely to be 'add more roles'
18:33:59 <FLHerne> Random comment: the express-passenger-speed tank engines are too faast
18:34:56 <FLHerne> They mean you can randomly mix branch- and mainline trains, and there's never a reason to run passenger trains slower than the fastest available engine
18:37:22 <andythenorth> it's notable that later in game, the railcars all run at freight speed, by design
18:38:09 <FLHerne> I kind of like that UKRS2 almost forces mixing speeds on the same tracks
18:38:23 <andythenorth> that's my thinking for NARS Horse
18:38:23 <FLHerne> I have to build freight loops and things
18:38:30 <andythenorth> UK Horse is explicitly agains that
18:38:32 <FLHerne> But that's very not out-of-the-way
18:39:08 <FLHerne> (I do wish OTTD dealt with following trains in a less-pessimal way than "dead stop")
18:39:20 <andythenorth> UK Horse really tries hard to discourage mixing freight and pax
18:39:39 <andythenorth> but if you do mix them, the freight is unrealistically fast, so it's survivable
18:40:41 <andythenorth> merge them with the branch freight
18:41:05 <nielsm> if we could make path signals look more than one block ahead...
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18:48:35 <supermop_work> you think it would make everything run smoother but really it makes you aware how tiny the in game headways usually are
18:48:46 <supermop_work> plus side you get fun SPADs
18:57:56 <andythenorth> did we dare call the addons 'mods' yet?
18:58:10 <andythenorth> as a general name for newgrf, AI, GS etc
19:01:26 <FLHerne> I don't think a collective term would be a good idea really
19:01:43 <FLHerne> They're such different things that it would only ever be misleading
19:02:39 <planetmaker> yet all of them are add-ons :)
19:03:16 <andythenorth> if you're new to developing for openttd
19:03:29 <andythenorth> you're not going to actively look for 'newgrf', 'nogo', 'noai'
19:03:46 <planetmaker> I think it makes sense to call add-ons add-ons. ore mods, if you want
19:10:23 <andythenorth> Content APIs (modding frameworks)
19:14:41 <andythenorth> and you want to work on OpenTTD with limited prior knowledge of the project
19:14:47 <andythenorth> where do you look for some docs?
19:14:57 * andythenorth is wondering where to put links
19:15:36 <FLHerne> "Contributing to OpenTTD" seems fairly clear right at the top
19:16:44 <FLHerne> I think it could use a few links besides the "contributing.md" one
19:16:59 <andythenorth> or the links go in CONTRIBUTING at least
19:17:07 <andythenorth> the wiki is not linked currently afaict
19:17:15 <FLHerne> Also, a mention that one can contribute by creating NewGRFs rather than modifying the base game?
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19:17:31 <andythenorth> plausible yes, modding frameworks are under-mentioned
19:17:36 <FLHerne> With a link to the NML spec
19:17:50 <andythenorth> quak, I concede, wiki format is generally better for OpenTTD docs frosch123
19:17:51 <FLHerne> Or the NFO spec, or both
19:18:05 <andythenorth> due to PR - approval - yak-shave - merge cycle
19:18:15 <andythenorth> and avoidance of formatting wars in the repo
19:36:15 <glx> I finally uninstalled python 3.8 and installed python 3.7.4
19:36:21 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Is /everything/ relating to rail/road/tramtypes in NML copy-pasted in triplicate?
19:36:30 <glx> now all my pip install work flawlessly
19:36:31 <FLHerne> Or just, like, most of it :P
19:38:04 <glx> it works when using windows-2016
19:39:29 <LordAro> glx: figured it would be something like that
19:40:00 <andythenorth> FLHerne: nothing was unified, didn't even try
19:40:08 <glx> and now I'm trying pyinstaller locally, I like the idea of a self-containing exe
19:40:09 <andythenorth> it was a JFDI at the time, to make test cases
19:40:49 <glx> cx-freeze gather way too much files
19:45:48 <DorpsGek_III> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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19:54:20 <supermop_work> now i have "I got 5 on it" stuck in my head
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20:03:06 <andythenorth> supermop_work: and now so do I :(
20:03:27 <supermop_work> grab your four let's get keyed
20:04:30 <andythenorth> probably Regulate next
20:04:45 <supermop_work> you can't be any geek off the street
20:05:05 <supermop_work> you gotta be quick with the steel if you know what I mean
20:05:24 <supermop_work> step to this, i dare ya
20:08:07 <frosch123> andythenorth: so, you want to move everything to wiki now? :p
20:17:17 <andythenorth> frosch123: but do you have a link to the complaints about docs in C++ projects?
20:18:14 <frosch123> what complaints? i think i am missing context
20:18:51 <andythenorth> you mentioned some movement against generated docs (and their deps)?
20:18:55 <andythenorth> or I misunderstood :)
20:19:34 <frosch123> ah, that was some vcpkg guy at cppcon
20:20:20 <andythenorth> "I have installed doxygen on a handful of projects. In hindsight, it was a waste of time. No one reads generated codedoc, yet everyone just read the code."
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20:22:12 <frosch123> andythenorth: i used doxygen a lot at work
20:22:30 <frosch123> it's good for class hierarchies and explaining stuff to others
20:23:32 * andythenorth watching, thanks
20:23:37 <frosch123> essentially there are two use-cases for doxygen: generated docs are like slides, ide display docs on the fly in popups
20:24:06 <frosch123> in the second case you actually do not run doxygen, the ide understands doxygen syntax
20:25:23 <andythenorth> video is interesting, not a problem I will ever have directly
20:25:40 <andythenorth> but I write a couple of UI libraries which are packaged for vendoring internally at work
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20:42:47 <frosch123> i guess we could include those in doxygen, so they are on docs.openttd.org
20:43:07 <frosch123> hmm, otoh, that page is likely no longer generated :p
20:43:55 <milek7> doxygen for libraries is useful
20:44:04 <milek7> not so much for standalone software when you already have editor with code opened ;p
20:44:13 <frosch123> andythenorth: that htmlpriview appears very slow though
20:44:36 <andythenorth> I just distrust external services like that
20:45:01 <frosch123> i have a browser extenstion to change mimetypes
20:45:26 <andythenorth> and landscape grid is one of the few OpenTTD docs I actually use
20:46:01 <andythenorth> it shouldn't be in wiki, and converting it to .md would be horrible
20:48:55 <andythenorth> stack overflow says 'no' for html
20:52:56 <milek7> doxygen docs typically contains extra info outside source in 'Detailed Description' section
20:53:31 <andythenorth> I am thinking this might be TWMTFLB :|
20:54:50 <glx> <frosch123> in the second case you actually do not run doxygen, the ide understands doxygen syntax <-- I wish MSVC could fully understand doxygen
20:57:21 <frosch123> andythenorth: including html in doxygen is easy
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21:02:07 <frosch123> htmlinclude reads stuff from the example path
21:02:52 <frosch123> i am not sure whether "." is a good idea, i.e. whether doxygen includes stuff from the exampels automatically
21:04:09 <andythenorth> does it generate valid html?
21:04:29 <andythenorth> doxygen said it might not, due to invalid element hierarchies
21:05:19 <frosch123> let's see what f12 says
21:06:17 <frosch123> it puts a <title> into a <div> block, is that valid?
21:06:53 <frosch123> ah, indeed it is invalid. <div><html><head>...</head><body>
21:06:57 <frosch123> but browsers render everything :p
21:07:27 <frosch123> it just ignores <html>, <head>, <body>, and most things inside <head>
21:08:20 <frosch123> it's probably still possible to include it has a "picture" in an iframe or something
21:08:44 <andythenorth> SO had people generating iframes with javascript
21:09:26 <andythenorth> LordAro: so...website release? :)
21:18:07 <frosch123> hmm, the image thing is too fragile
21:18:21 <frosch123> so, htmlinclude would work
21:18:36 <frosch123> but we would have to make the included files include html themself
21:19:08 <frosch123> i mean we need to delete <html> <head> and <body> from the html files
21:19:18 <frosch123> so they can be included in whole
21:22:10 <frosch123> it's more work when editing it
21:22:16 <andythenorth> I think it should be left alone
21:22:24 <frosch123> unless browsers render the missing <html> also just fine :p
21:22:41 <andythenorth> I'm trying to make the best of what we already have, rather than re-engineer it :)
21:23:06 <andythenorth> if it's fragile to include, we should just leave it alone
21:27:44 <andythenorth> I've made peace with having both wiki and GH docs :P
21:27:56 <andythenorth> but some stuff is in the wrong place :P
21:29:56 <andythenorth> the rest is fine where it is :P
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22:07:50 <andythenorth> frosch123: did you write that ^^ ?
22:09:07 <frosch123> at some point i did
22:09:21 <frosch123> can't remember what happened before and after
22:09:26 <andythenorth> I think it still stands
22:09:44 <andythenorth> mind if I copy it for CONTRIBUTING.md?
22:10:32 <frosch123> but some PRs may not match it
22:10:54 <andythenorth> we can have the bunfight later
22:21:47 <andythenorth> frosch123: I'm adding a goal :P
22:21:51 <andythenorth> "- Provide a stable core for both players of the official branch, and for patchpack authors"
22:22:32 <frosch123> i am a fan of itemizations
22:22:45 <frosch123> i would add add-on developers
22:25:13 <andythenorth> already has "- Allow extending the gameplay with add-ons / mods via supported content APIs"
22:25:23 <andythenorth> but I see your point
22:36:29 <frosch123> the "privacy notice" seems to be in a weird position
22:37:37 <andythenorth> I suppose it has to follow from license
22:37:42 <andythenorth> but I could link it
22:41:22 <frosch123> i guess the "stable core for patchpacks" is a lie :p
22:41:30 <frosch123> all those c++11 migrations :)
22:42:47 <andythenorth> 'relatively stable'
22:43:08 <frosch123> [22:10] <andythenorth> we can have the bunfight later
22:43:11 <LordAro> "more stable than it would be otherwise"
22:46:35 <LordAro> "we really could do with better tests"
22:46:46 <LordAro> "but at least we have some"
22:48:12 <frosch123> did you see that factorio solved the ship-pathfinder issue?
22:48:33 <frosch123> (no ships ofc, but equivalent problem)
22:48:39 <LordAro> "areas" was one of the things that was originally suggested, iirc
22:49:06 <LordAro> turns out path cache doesn't work so well for road vehicles and sharing stations, ofc
22:49:18 <LordAro> so we could reconsider
22:49:26 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth opened pull request #7790: Doc: CONTRIBUTING.md - add official goals section, link from other se… https://git.io/JeRRP
22:49:41 <andythenorth> ^ this is of a piece with tidying up the wiki etc
22:49:41 <milek7> factorio likely has less dynamic terrain?
22:49:55 <frosch123> iirc train yapf ignores the cache near the destination, when signals matter
22:50:05 <LordAro> less dynamic, but not really to the point where they can just consider it static
22:50:11 <frosch123> rv should also ignore the cache when near the destination, so they can evaluate the occupation
22:50:14 <andythenorth> FAQ should not contain official policy / guidelines :P
22:50:34 <LordAro> frosch123: i believe that's the proposed solution that i read somewhere
22:50:58 <frosch123> milek7: no, you can also remove water in factorio, it's equaly rare as in ottd
22:53:18 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro updated pull request #7716: Add: [Script] ScriptEventVehicleAutoReplaced. https://git.io/fjplU
22:53:28 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7716: Add: [Script] ScriptEventVehicleAutoReplaced. https://git.io/JeRR9
22:55:13 <LordAro> andythenorth: line split per sentence for md docs pls
22:55:28 <LordAro> makes much easier to read
22:56:01 <andythenorth> LordAro: any particular line numbers?
22:56:06 <andythenorth> I'm inclined to agree
22:56:19 <LordAro> 197 is where i thought of it, but there are a lot of them
22:56:43 <andythenorth> I'll see what I can do :)
22:58:18 * andythenorth wonders how that will render in some cases
22:58:33 <andythenorth> lots of very short paragraphs, where the run-on meaning might be lost between sentences :P
22:59:05 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7717: Codechange: [OSX] Use std::unique_ptr with a custom deleter to simply… https://git.io/JeRRN
22:59:14 <andythenorth> this will be a big diff :P
22:59:23 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7717: Codechange: [OSX] Use std::unique_ptr with a custom deleter to simply… https://git.io/JeRRx
22:59:48 <LordAro> andythenorth: markdown is well defined in this area - 1 line break does nothing, 2 line breaks for paragraphs
23:00:01 <andythenorth> LordAro: ok so just one newline for run-on?
23:00:08 <andythenorth> I was about to suggest that :P
23:00:14 <LordAro> just to make the diff cleaner
23:00:18 <LordAro> what were you about to do? :p
23:01:24 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7710: Fix: Fix bugs in airport finite state machines https://git.io/JeR0e
23:02:30 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7790: Doc: CONTRIBUTING.md - add official goals section, link from other se… https://git.io/JeRRP
23:02:41 <andythenorth> I was about to do 2 newlines everywhere, which was horrible
23:02:57 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7699: Fix: Possible double path separator in FiosMakeFilename https://git.io/JeR0U
23:03:02 <LordAro> andythenorth: that would be horrible, yes
23:03:15 <andythenorth> dunno if I got them all
23:03:18 <andythenorth> reading the rendered .md
23:03:29 <andythenorth> browsers should render .md :P
23:05:57 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] matthijskooijman commented on pull request #29: Add compatibility with >=pillow-6.0.0 https://git.io/JeR0Z
23:07:16 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7790: Doc: CONTRIBUTING.md - add official goals section, link from other se… https://git.io/JeRRP
23:08:13 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7790: Doc: CONTRIBUTING.md - add official goals section, link from other se… https://git.io/JeRRP
23:09:09 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro reopened issue #39: (AttributeError) "module 'PIL.Image' has no attribute 'VERSION'". https://git.io/fjEFl
23:09:09 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro commented on issue #39: (AttributeError) "module 'PIL.Image' has no attribute 'VERSION'". https://git.io/fjEFl
23:22:50 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] matthijskooijman commented on issue #39: (AttributeError) "module 'PIL.Image' has no attribute 'VERSION'". https://git.io/fjEFl
23:24:06 <andythenorth> oof is it bedtime?
23:24:23 <andythenorth> or do I need to make more changes to CONTRIBUTING?
23:29:31 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro requested changes for pull request #7353: Feature: Measure vehicle capacity utilisation efficiency https://git.io/JeR09
23:31:27 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #7573: Fix #7561: Remove assumption between power and cost https://git.io/fjnyI
23:46:00 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth updated pull request #7790: Doc: CONTRIBUTING.md - add official goals section, link from other se… https://git.io/JeRRP
23:47:34 <LordAro> oh no, a compile warning
23:47:46 <LordAro> we really should turn on -Werror for the CI
23:47:56 <LordAro> for some platforms, at least
23:49:12 <andythenorth> I am not aiding the PR count reduction goal :P
23:49:23 <andythenorth> still, it's 49, which is less than 50
23:49:29 <andythenorth> less than 50 = winning
23:49:35 <andythenorth> arbitrary goals :P
23:50:44 <milek7> -Werror means that builds would start failing with random compiler upgrades
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23:51:09 <andythenorth> probably correct, if it's only on the CI?
23:51:25 <LordAro> CI doesn't get random compiler upgrades
23:52:14 <glx> and we already know it should not be enables for macOS and linux clang :)
23:52:50 <glx> but the best would be an improved report from the CI
continue to next day ⏵