IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2019-10-07
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00:01:59 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] abmyii updated pull request #7752: Prevent sounds being produced by inactive industries https://git.io/JeZlF
00:06:17 <Eddi|zuHause> "official debian packages" and "up to date" doesn't really fit in the same sentence
00:06:40 <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: debian unstable*
00:07:44 <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: i don't think that helps much :p
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00:13:32 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] abmyii commented on pull request #7752: Prevent sounds being produced by inactive industries https://git.io/JeCor
00:24:48 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #7752: Prevent sounds being produced by inactive industries https://git.io/JeCo9
00:25:24 <glx> I fear to suggest another rebase
00:26:20 <Eddi|zuHause> just squash all the commits?
00:27:05 <glx> he already failed to squash commits
00:27:20 <glx> everytime he rebases, it just adds a new commit
00:28:00 <glx> and now the commit checker fails
00:28:55 <Eddi|zuHause> he made merge commits instead of rebasing?
00:29:17 <glx> no he somehow created empty commits
00:29:35 <glx> and duplicate commits too
00:32:13 <_dp_> crazy idea of the day: make mmorpg in openttd xD
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00:40:28 <Eddi|zuHause2> we used to have a wwottdgd
00:49:02 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] abmyii commented on pull request #7752: Prevent sounds being produced by inactive industries https://git.io/JeCKt
00:52:37 <Thedarkb> I might host my own repo with up to date openttd debs
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01:00:03 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #7752: Prevent sounds being produced by inactive industries https://git.io/JeCKs
01:00:53 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] abmyii commented on pull request #7752: Prevent sounds being produced by inactive industries https://git.io/JeCKc
01:04:54 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #7752: Prevent sounds being produced by inactive industries https://git.io/JeZlF
01:10:17 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7752: Prevent sounds being produced by inactive industries https://git.io/JeCKC
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01:19:36 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] abmyii updated pull request #7752: Prevent sounds being produced by inactive industries https://git.io/JeZlF
01:21:34 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] abmyii commented on pull request #7752: Prevent sounds being produced by inactive industries https://git.io/JeCKB
01:22:04 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] abmyii commented on pull request #7752: Prevent sounds being produced by inactive industries https://git.io/JeCK0
01:25:04 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #7752: Prevent sounds being produced by inactive industries https://git.io/JeCKu
01:31:36 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #7752: Prevent sounds being produced by inactive industries https://git.io/JeCKg
01:33:58 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] abmyii updated pull request #7752: Prevent sounds being produced by inactive industries https://git.io/JeZlF
01:36:20 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] abmyii commented on pull request #7752: Prevent sounds being produced by inactive industries https://git.io/JeCKV
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01:43:24 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #7752: Prevent sounds being produced by inactive industries https://git.io/JeCK6
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11:46:39 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] abmyii updated pull request #7752: Prevent sounds being produced by inactive industries https://git.io/JeZlF
11:49:18 <peter1138> ttps://i.redd.it/0nji0y55q0r31.png
11:49:27 <peter1138> Oh, andy isn't here.
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15:30:45 <supermop_work> what about configurable start date
15:31:12 <supermop_work> so you can start in july not january
15:31:55 <supermop_work> (if you have a low snowline then you could have fames that would later get snowed in at game start?
15:31:58 <Eddi|zuHause> same issue, we don't have useful ui for inputting dates?
15:32:11 <supermop_work> the timetable start date UI?
15:33:05 <supermop_work> i end up using that 10s to 100s of times per game, its certainly useable of not perfect
15:37:54 <supermop_work> maguey plants in Oaxaca, Joshua trees in Joshua tree?
15:38:09 <supermop_work> newgrf trees should be slope aware
15:39:23 <Eddi|zuHause> the tree problem could be addressed with a shader?
15:39:55 <supermop_work> shade tree by some amount based on slopr
15:40:55 <supermop_work> or better slope averaged over some amount of neighbors
15:42:22 <supermop_work> heightlevel is good for changing forest type but not shading for contour
15:58:03 <nielsm> we don't have any general "remap slightly briighter/darker" pallettes do we
15:58:10 <nielsm> which probably makes that difficult
15:58:18 <nielsm> could maybe support it on 32bpp blitters
15:59:06 <nielsm> is there even a canonical sun position in the game?
15:59:58 <supermop_work> but it is disobeyed in a few places in the original and ogfx sets
16:02:10 <nielsm> ESE is probably most accurate
16:02:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i think adhering to the one used for ground sprites should probably be advised
16:16:10 <supermop_work> for hill recognition, following the hill shading is best and easiest
16:20:24 <supermop_work> basically just follow "trees on the brightest slope(or average to brightest slope) are brightest. Trees on the darkest slope/average are darkest"
16:22:59 <supermop_work> 8bpp version could be "flat or bright side -> normal. dark side -> use station glass effect"
16:24:07 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_work: better make new tree shader remaps
16:24:43 <peter1138> Do we support Vulkan yet?
16:24:54 <Eddi|zuHause> do you have a patch for that? :p
16:25:09 <peter1138> I may have deleted all my patches.
16:25:17 <nielsm> trying to make a PoC with the 32bpp-simple blitter
16:25:57 <peter1138> We really should drop all the blitter variants and switch to modern rendering.
16:26:42 <peter1138> OpenGL I suppose as DirectX is a bit limiting and Vulkan may be too new?
16:27:14 <nielsm> opengl isn't disappearing for the foreseeable future
16:28:16 <peter1138> I think it may be on OS X, actually.
16:28:46 <peter1138> Mac OS's new thing is Metal.
16:28:51 <nielsm> and even then if the engine is reworked to a sprites-in-texture-atlas rendered-as-individual-quads it'd be much easier to add a different backend
16:29:21 <nielsm> microsoft didn't manage to force OpenGL off their platform despite best efforts :)
16:29:26 <peter1138> Creating that atlas is kinda... meh.
16:31:18 <nielsm> also uh wow I didn't know the rendering pipeline from "I want this sprite on the screen" to it actually being painted in the blitter involved this many steps
16:31:41 <peter1138> Yup. There's all that caching stuff.
16:32:55 <nielsm> also... sprite combining? it's not like it creates a single image of the overlaid sprites is it?
16:33:13 <nielsm> is it just a sprite sorter trick?
16:33:17 <peter1138> No, it just draws multiple sprites together.
16:35:00 <peter1138> The real issue is the game is literally pushing pixels individually... (Probably the SSE blitters improve that but it's still all software)
16:39:16 <peter1138> My ancient OpenGL patch was... weird :p
16:39:41 <peter1138> It suffered from not using texture atlases, each sprite was an individual OpenGL texture.
16:40:03 <peter1138> Also everything was direct.
16:40:55 <peter1138> These days (since about 15-20 years ago, heh) you'd probably be using vertex buffers for chunks of terrain.
16:43:50 <nielsm> should you perhaps even model the world in 3D in the renderer? drawing the terrain as a 3D model-ish thing, and everything else as billboards with 3D coordinates?
16:44:15 <nielsm> and get sprite sorting that way
16:44:33 <nielsm> hmm actually would still need to sort back to front, for alpha
16:45:11 <peter1138> If you use 3D geometry, that's almost automatic.
16:46:01 <peter1138> But when you start to delve into it you see how backwards it all is for a modern renderer.
16:47:03 <peter1138> You want to be notified of when things change. OpenTTD sort of... polls every tile to draw.
16:54:44 <nielsm> hmm, like game objects owning "sprite on screen" objects maybe
16:55:07 <nielsm> and those automatically insert/remote themselves from the draw list when the owning object is created/destroyed
16:56:17 <nielsm> and then you get into questions about how to handle landscape and if the classic landscape array needs to be replaced
16:58:19 <nielsm> programming is difficult when a bird insists on perching on your fingers
16:59:42 <andythenorth> problem exists between keyboard and chair
17:00:39 <nielsm> well, I didn't break things completely, it still draws trees
17:01:37 <andythenorth> procedural trees!
17:01:44 <andythenorth> birds in trees :P
17:09:55 <Eddi|zuHause> that's only a problem if the newgrf overrides the recolourings?
17:17:13 <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't look like a trustworthy link
17:17:26 <andythenorth> oh there is that yes :P
17:18:07 <andythenorth> different path, same image
17:19:13 <FLHerne> Doesn't ISR/DWE have those?
17:19:31 <Eddi|zuHause> that's just a "flat dock"?
17:19:39 <FLHerne> Oh, I guess it doesn't have actual docks yet, just overlapping-tiles
17:20:29 <andythenorth> I was looking at the helipad on the ship
17:21:20 <Eddi|zuHause> that's basically the same as a vehicle ferry?
17:21:29 <andythenorth> conceptually maybe
17:21:35 <andythenorth> moving stations? o_O
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17:27:02 <FLHerne> Ship helipads aren't used for customer cargo/passengers though, so they're not Really Needed?
17:33:44 <andythenorth> Sadly You Are Correct
17:33:49 <andythenorth> it would be lolz, briefly
17:33:57 <andythenorth> imagine the routing headaches :P
17:34:02 <andythenorth> helicopter chasing a ship
17:34:06 <andythenorth> reminds me of a flash game I made
17:34:34 <FLHerne> Train ferries would be a lot of fun
17:34:55 <FLHerne> They'd make it painfully obvious how badly OTTD lacks any sense of scale, though...
17:35:15 <FLHerne> Helicopters on ships would be the same, but not quite so bad
17:37:22 * peter1138 is attempting to teach/train a couple of developers on version control...
17:37:45 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: any sane implementation of intermodal transport would likely imply that one of the two vehicles needs to be stationary :p
17:42:48 <andythenorth> peter1138 how's it going? :)
17:54:42 <andythenorth> what rules is it applying?
18:00:21 <andythenorth> it's pretty subtle eh
18:00:39 <nielsm> pondering whether to close #7759 and just make a PR of the "real" indproclayout patch
18:01:10 <nielsm> yeah I actually like that tree effect a lot
18:01:39 <nielsm> with some tweaking to the exact shading and implementation in the fast 32bpp blitters it might make a good addition
18:02:03 <nielsm> and then a better way to pass the data along
18:02:46 <andythenorth> unrelated: a set of pre-computed tree tiles, instead of fucking around with random
18:02:59 <andythenorth> thereby reducing savegame sizes (allegedly)
18:03:50 <nielsm> it would also make the world more boring to look at, more samey
18:03:58 <nielsm> it's already very simplified
18:04:43 <nielsm> it only stores the type and position of the first tree on a tile, and then a count of "additional trees" whose position and type are generated from the first by some series
18:07:38 <nielsm> trees only enlarge savegames in the sense that they add "random noise" to the landscape array, thus making it compress worse with the gz/lzma/whatever algorithm
18:08:03 <nielsm> what they really do is make the rendering slower since it's a lot of additional sprites to be considered every frame
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18:18:41 <andythenorth> we could have them precomputed :P
18:19:15 <andythenorth> I think 128 would be substantially above the threshold for 'this does not look random'
18:19:23 <andythenorth> * 128 variations
18:19:28 <supermop_work> nielsm: amazing
18:19:48 <supermop_work> something i've been craving for 20+ years
18:20:13 <andythenorth> but if the game is already generating a series from the first tree, isn't that effectively just pre-computed?
18:23:03 <nielsm> well as far as I can tell from the landscape data there's about 11 or 12 bits worth of information about the trees on a tile
18:23:14 <nielsm> so still somewhere around 1024-4096 combinations
18:23:46 <nielsm> and that's across all climates
18:25:39 <nielsm> and then there's additional combinations possible via ground (grass) growth state and such
18:27:02 <supermop_work> how many trees fit on a tile?
18:28:32 <supermop_work> if newgrf trees, can a tree be a bush
18:28:50 <supermop_work> or even just a 1/4 tile worth of tall grass
18:29:48 <nielsm> check docs/landscape.html
18:30:27 <andythenorth> based on making FIRS industries with combinations of trees, the number to trigger 'looks random to me' isn't high
18:30:50 <andythenorth> FIRS has a special tree generating template
18:32:43 <andythenorth> yeah, 3 combinations
18:32:58 <andythenorth> comprising 4 trees per tile
18:33:11 <andythenorth> and then repositioned to suit the slope, so 16 or so slope computations
18:33:41 <andythenorth> looks pretty random
18:35:01 <planetmaker> <nielsm> it only stores the type and position of the first tree on a tile, and then a count of "additional trees" whose position and type are generated from the first by some series <-- just as a thought on compression:
18:35:45 <planetmaker> in principle the trees trees are eye-candy only (ignoring their random spawn, thus state and number per tile are state-senstitive only)
18:36:05 <planetmaker> so one could add randomness which is not network-sensitive (and which not necessarily need to be saved either)
18:36:06 <nielsm> actually, the position of the tree on the tile isn't stored, I think it's determined by the tile's coordinate
18:36:21 <planetmaker> same could actually apply to ground tiles. Making landscape look slightly more diverse
18:36:38 <planetmaker> yes, but the number of trees and their growth state(s).
18:36:48 <nielsm> there is just one growth state :P
18:37:02 <nielsm> the remaining trees are all full grown
18:37:22 <nielsm> which is why the first tree becomes full grown when you plant a second tree on a tile
18:37:26 <planetmaker> hm... one tree with growth 1-4. And then #trees 1-3(?) ?
18:46:26 <andythenorth> 3 combos of 4 trees :P ^
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18:55:09 * peter1138 back. Slightly soggy.
18:58:45 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] planetmaker commented on pull request #7671: Fix #6407: Show snowy ground sprites for depots https://git.io/JeCNc
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19:40:23 <andythenorth> nice...radiosity :D
19:40:38 <andythenorth> unrelated, we need fewer trees :P
19:41:43 <andythenorth> it wasn't amazing visually either
19:47:27 <supermop_work> nielsm: looks good
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20:16:18 <andythenorth> it reveals contours a lot eh :)
20:16:25 <peter1138> I don't know what you've done but it looks good.
20:17:22 <andythenorth> next pony, height-level biomes :D
20:17:24 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] abmyii commented on pull request #7752: Prevent sounds being produced by inactive industries https://git.io/JeCAx
20:18:04 <LordAro> andythenorth: snow levels good enough for you? :p
20:19:04 <peter1138> But does it work with 8bpp? ;)
20:19:12 <andythenorth> LordAro not so visible in temperate / tropic :P
20:19:26 * andythenorth wonders about toyland biomes
20:19:36 <peter1138> What should I watch on Netflix/
20:20:22 <andythenorth> peter1138: the reddit image you linked earlier...?
20:20:25 <peter1138> Ash vs Evil Dead, maybe.
20:21:30 <peter1138> andythenorth, someone running high res at 1x, like normal, unlike you :p
20:21:50 <andythenorth> someone with eyes :P
20:22:06 <peter1138> Maybe it's 49" screen
20:22:18 <peter1138> I don't think it's as high density as your screen.
20:22:42 <andythenorth> that screen is fricking huge
20:22:58 <peter1138> 3440x1440? It's ultrawide, certainly.
20:24:25 <planetmaker> hm, I like where that is going :) @ nielsm
20:24:50 <peter1138> I guess most things are already shaded, so it's just trees.
20:24:53 <planetmaker> Though I wonder whether it wouldn't make sense to make the shading depend solely on the slope
20:26:36 <planetmaker> he... either the server is slow with the images or they are REALLY huge
20:27:15 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7763: Fix: Fix build and link using Cygwin and Mingw32 for Windows 7 x64 https://git.io/JeCxE
20:27:46 <andythenorth> 1x on my screen :P
20:28:26 <andythenorth> I tried to take a picture, including a beer bottle for comparison
20:28:28 <peter1138> 13" is pretty small but that is about right.
20:28:36 <andythenorth> but the lighting here is too poor
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20:35:06 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] planetmaker commented on pull request #7752: Prevent sounds being produced by inactive industries https://git.io/JeCx5
20:37:43 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] abmyii commented on pull request #7752: Prevent sounds being produced by inactive industries https://git.io/JeCxx
20:50:40 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] abmyii commented on pull request #7752: Prevent sounds being produced by inactive industries https://git.io/JeCpB
20:55:47 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] planetmaker commented on pull request #7752: Prevent sounds being produced by inactive industries https://git.io/JeCp6
21:01:00 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] abmyii commented on pull request #7752: Prevent sounds being produced by inactive industries https://git.io/JeCp9
21:19:19 <planetmaker> he... I actually know that person :D
21:19:35 <planetmaker> didn't know he makes youtube videos now
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21:27:10 <planetmaker> no. but another regular from the coop community
21:31:29 <andythenorth> so anyone for NRT?
21:34:40 <planetmaker> omg... that's a ... lengthy patch series
21:35:12 <andythenorth> I can interactive rebase it and reduce the number of commits
21:35:33 <planetmaker> no, not squashing... but honestly... I could just merge it so that people can test it...
21:35:34 <glx> don't, you'll break it :)
21:35:42 <andythenorth> I can't keep up with whether we want atomic commits or not :P
21:35:50 <planetmaker> I do want atomic, yes
21:35:54 <andythenorth> every commit I make, someone will tell me it's too big or too small :)
21:36:03 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh merged pull request #7763: Fix: Fix build and link using Cygwin and Mingw32 for Windows 7 x64 https://git.io/JeCWC
21:36:19 <planetmaker> really... like... 3 years old are those patches?
21:36:24 <peter1138> Have you actually all forgotten that NRT was already merged?
21:36:44 <andythenorth> wait what, when?
21:37:24 <peter1138> Ah, the nml changes. Sorry.
21:37:47 <andythenorth> I'd approve them, but I'm not allowed to approve own PR
21:37:53 <andythenorth> in the old days, we used to just commit
21:38:27 <planetmaker> meh... I just commit now
21:39:03 <DorpsGek_III> - Support for Not Road Types (#30) (by PeterN)
21:39:07 <glx> sometime we just miss the evident fail in the PR
21:39:38 <glx> 2 times in the error_gui.cpp change
21:39:43 <planetmaker> gah... I hate that default button is "squash and merge" :|
21:40:34 <planetmaker> but nice... the build of nml started automatically... so that works
21:42:19 <nielsm> should I close that and open a new PR with the actual procedural industry layouts thing?
21:42:42 <nielsm> (which still needs a lot of polish and perhaps extra features for layout control)
21:43:53 <andythenorth> oh bundles worked :o
21:44:28 <planetmaker> hm... but... windows build...hm
21:48:54 <andythenorth> how does bundles even github?
21:58:55 <planetmaker> it's built by coop jenkins. Which just gets notification from github to build
22:07:08 <planetmaker> he... seems I disabled windoze builds myself... oh well... due to §$%(§ python upgrade breaking it :|
22:16:01 <Hazzard> andythenorth: I didnt say FIRS is boring!
22:16:05 <Hazzard> Did I hmm lemme check
22:19:59 <Hazzard> Yeah, I just didn't want that much complexity for a let's play with less experienced viewers :0
22:25:44 <Samu> there should be NewGRF packs
22:26:12 <Samu> I never know what to download alongside firs
22:27:31 <Samu> something like: Download: FIRS then a list of suggestions, users that run FIRS also run *list of newgrfs
22:32:44 <supermop_work> Samu: use whatever you want with firs
22:33:39 <supermop_work> opengfx+ stuff works fine if you just want something like the basic vehicles. but many vehicle sets will work fine with firs
22:35:24 <supermop_work> most users seem to download all sorts of grfs so there is no meaningful way to correlate what is indicated by downloads alone
22:35:35 <nnyby> would be nice to have like a 'date released' field in the content downloader
22:36:20 <supermop_work> nnyby: FIRS 3 comes after FIRS 2, which comes after FIRS?
22:38:08 <andythenorth> also FIRS Extreme sucks Hazzard
22:38:17 <andythenorth> the screenshot you showed of the cargo flow is lolz :D
22:38:47 <andythenorth> nnyby: also which CHIPS is the main CHIPS? :P
22:38:50 <andythenorth> there are loads of them
22:40:27 <Samu> the list of newgrfs is daunting
22:40:56 <Samu> if you don't know specifically which one it is, that list is useless for you
22:45:38 <planetmaker> Samu, but that will always be the case, whatever you do
22:46:00 <planetmaker> there's no foolproof way to present all available newgrfs without them being just that: many
22:46:11 <planetmaker> unless you start to curate the list... but that's then always a subjective choice
22:46:20 <planetmaker> anyone can do that. But not we as OpenTTD itself
22:48:30 <Samu> oh, FIRS Industry Replacement Set 3 is the most up to date? I thought it was FIRS 2
22:49:09 <Samu> why is the other ommiting Industry Replacement Set from the name
22:49:56 <andythenorth> because I made a mistake
22:50:00 <andythenorth> and Bananas cannot be fixed
22:53:24 <supermop_work> Samu: if you want a community recommendation as to what to use, that exists too where the user community is
22:54:06 <supermop_work> on forums people post screenshots of how they play the game, and in firs thread people ask and comment about vehicle sets they use
22:55:06 <supermop_work> on irc you can ask 'what is your favorite vehicle set to use with firs?" and get people's subjective opinions
22:55:21 <andythenorth> I make my own private bananas
22:55:32 <andythenorth> and CHIPS objects
22:56:21 <supermop_work> but an Official/Curated/Subjective list of grfs on the in game UI will not be 'community' based by default
22:57:19 <Samu> i want to test ais with newgrfs
22:57:21 <andythenorth> I make an OpenTTD PP?
22:57:27 <andythenorth> nerf bananas filter
22:57:33 <supermop_work> if you want suggestions as to what users think are good pairing, then ask the users
22:58:26 <supermop_work> bananas can't tell you what users actually use together, nor can it tell you what combinations are actually fun
22:58:39 <Samu> got av9.8, got firs 3.0.12
22:59:07 <Samu> what am i missing? vehicle sets? maybe a town set?
23:00:06 <andythenorth> OpenGFX+ Airports, always
23:00:08 <supermop_work> i think you'll have more fun playing with at least a road vehicle set and a train set
23:01:01 <supermop_work> you yourself will have a better idea about what you think the AIs you use would like
23:01:07 <Samu> OpenGFX+ airports, hmm AI's have trouble handling the extra airports
23:01:28 <supermop_work> ok well there is a data point you can use
23:15:24 <Samu> av9.8 doesn't have a max range ?
23:19:14 <Samu> hmm my AI is doing better than the rest, i think im missing some town newgrf
23:21:27 <Samu> either FIRS cargo payment is reduced compared to vanilla cargos
23:21:57 <Samu> or the vehicle sets im using compensate passengers the most
23:39:17 <andythenorth> FIRS probably nerfs payments dunno
23:49:55 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] abmyii commented on pull request #7752: Prevent sounds being produced by inactive industries https://git.io/JeWvz
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