IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2019-07-21
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00:17:03 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7661: Codechange: Rework 'start_date' parameter for AIs as a game setting https://git.io/fjMsZ
00:17:31 <Samu> plz look at my PR, someone
00:19:37 <Samu> specifically the int64 ReadDefaultValue(const SettingDesc *sd)
00:42:50 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eriphia opened issue #7662: Station sets using ground tile numbers using incorrect tiles for maglev and monorail https://git.io/fjMEK
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00:50:44 <Beerbelott> Does autorenew have higher precedence than vehicle replace?
00:52:24 <Beerbelott> I got a company in which I set orders to replace vehicles by a newer generation version. That doesn't seem to have an effect (I set them to replace immediately, not when getting old). The company also happens to have autorenew on with a money limit which is not met.
00:52:36 <FLHerne> I'm fairly sure it doesn't, unless something changed recently
00:52:58 <Beerbelott> When vehicles get to a depot, a message tells me the vehicle couldn't be autorenewed, but the replacement didn't occur either
00:53:13 <Beerbelott> What could I have been missing, then?
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00:53:43 <FLHerne> Railtype incompatibility?
00:53:43 <Beerbelott> If you want to see that my yourself, yo ucan join me on a public server right now
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00:54:10 <FLHerne> Well, I guess now that NRT is a thing...
00:55:07 <FLHerne> Partly-overlapping sets of refittable cargos can be a problem too
00:55:45 <Beerbelott> Trucks got a single type of cargo, haven't they?
00:56:17 <FLHerne> (because naming things in weird ways is an OTTD tradition) :P
00:56:26 <FLHerne> But, anyway, like railtypes for roads
00:56:47 <FLHerne> Are you using the baseset ones?
00:57:01 <FLHerne> Newgrf trucks are usually refittable between more than one cargo
00:57:07 <FLHerne> [they can only carry one at once]
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01:13:11 <Beerbelott> It's a "vanilla" server
01:13:15 <Beerbelott> hence no NewGRF loaded
01:13:32 <Beerbelott> You can join if you wanna (help me) understand what's wrong
01:22:17 <Beerbelott> Report: Problem seemed to have been cash at hand ;)
01:30:13 <Beerbelott> Mmmmh... Sth else is interesting
01:30:24 <Beerbelott> All trucks new-enough got replaced by new version
01:30:32 <Beerbelott> All the "red" ones (too old) haven't
01:30:48 <Beerbelott> ... mb that's the sign autorenew has higher precedence than replacement for those?
01:31:12 <Beerbelott> This time I got more than the money limit (250k cash in hand for 200k money limit for autorenew)
01:31:43 <Beerbelott> Still dunno if the autorenew money limit applies to cash balance with or without loans deducted
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01:34:14 <Beerbelott> Autorenew disabled -> replacement for new version has now happened
01:34:27 <Beerbelott> thus there seem to be autorenew precedences :)
01:34:40 <Beerbelott> Which can prevent vehicle upgrade in case the money limit isn't reached
01:49:16 <FLHerne> Hm, if that's really true it's certainly broken
01:49:34 <FLHerne> I'm sure I remember it not behaving like that for me :P
01:52:59 <glx> hmm or maybe not, but wiki says "If the value is, for example, £200,000, a new vehicle costs £10,000 and you have £205,000, the vehicle will not be replaced. Instead, you will get a warning that autorenew has failed on that vehicle."
01:53:23 <glx> so if vehicle cost is more than 50k it will fail
01:55:23 <Samu> requires double the cost of vehicle, i think
01:56:09 <glx> seems money limit is the minimum money that should be available after the renew
01:56:38 <glx> but I didn't check the code
01:57:35 <Samu> needed_money += 2 * Engine::Get(new_engine)->GetCost();
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02:05:40 <Samu> this is for automatic servicing requiring a renew
02:08:29 <Beerbelott> FLHerne: Well, that's a use case to reproduce :)
02:08:48 <Beerbelott> I dunno if you have control over the max life of a vehicle
02:08:55 <Beerbelott> WOuld be interesting to reproduce
02:09:29 <Beerbelott> Activate both autorenew & autoreplace on a vehicle past its max lifespan (+ delta for autorenew to make it kick in)
02:10:03 <Beerbelott> I'm unsure about the money conditions though
02:10:23 <Beerbelott> It seems you need to have limit for autorenew + price of new vehicle in bank
03:43:29 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7661: Codechange: Rework 'start_date' parameter for AIs as a game setting https://git.io/fjMsZ
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09:10:40 <Eddi|zuHause> am i blind or does gimp not have the ability to draw geometric shapes? (rectangle, circle)
09:14:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i feel like i've never ever used a drawing program before
09:14:51 <Alberth> geometric shapes aren't very interesting in a drawing, probably
09:14:58 <Alberth> except for us techies :p
09:19:45 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: now, how are these tools called in the german version?
09:20:44 <Alberth> assuming the chapter number is the same, is there german documentation?
09:23:13 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: possibly, but there's no link to it, and the url doesn't seem to be by chapter number
09:24:52 <Alberth> your local copy has no german docs?
09:25:15 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: ok, i managed to make a rectangle and a circle... but how do i draw a straight line then?
09:25:29 <Eddi|zuHause> i feel this used to be easier
09:26:14 <andythenorth> FWIW, drawing shapes in photoshop is not easy :P
09:26:23 <andythenorth> not sure that helps you
09:27:55 <Alberth> I got a bunch of deprecated warnings in squirrel c++ code
09:28:20 <Alberth> also I totally forgot how hg mq works :p
09:28:54 <Eddi|zuHause> hg qpush, qpop, qcommit?
09:29:33 <Eddi|zuHause> i only really used hg queues from tortoisehg interface, though
09:30:18 <Alberth> yeah that rings a bell :)
09:38:20 <Alberth> eddi: just use a simplish standard windows paint thing?
09:45:22 <Alberth> simplest may be to add some debug print statements, and run a test with a single vehicle
09:46:07 <Alberth> that would at least show if your ideas about multiplying and dividing are right
09:48:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i should probably use a vector program like inkscape :)
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09:50:50 <Alberth> would work too, although I do usually prefer pixels :)
09:52:24 <Hazzard> Guess I'm finally going to have to compile my own version
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11:56:46 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Alberth289346 opened pull request #7663: Codechange: Remove unused FioTarFirstDir and FioTarAddLink functions https://git.io/fjMam
12:43:40 <Wolf01> So I need argon for steel... luckily I have one piece of iron to make the atmospheric condenser
12:45:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't even know which planet you find argon on
12:45:42 <Eddi|zuHause> also, i'm still at 5fps
12:46:28 <Wolf01> I don't have anymore performance drops since the last patch
12:46:49 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not a drop... it's just straight 5fps :p
12:48:28 <Wolf01> Did you try a new game?
12:49:57 <Wolf01> Oh, I also made the large solar panel, that's a beast
12:51:19 <Wolf01> Uh oh, not enough power for the atmospheric condenser
12:51:35 <Eddi|zuHause> no, not a new game
12:51:54 <Wolf01> Try a new game, it might be the terrain
12:53:56 <Samu> Severity Code Description Project File Line Suppression State
12:53:56 <Samu> Warning C26451 Arithmetic overflow: Using operator '+' on a 4 byte value and then casting the result to a 8 byte value. Cast the value to the wider type before calling operator '+' to avoid overflow (io.2). openttd D:\OPENTTD\OPENTTD GITHUB\OPENTTD\SRC\VEHICLE.CPP 1706
12:54:30 <Samu> important warning or not really?
12:56:22 <Samu> oh nvm, they're IntelliSense warnings
13:06:25 <nielsm> it's still something to consider though
13:18:20 <FLHerne> Wolf01: What game is this now?
13:18:34 <Wolf01> Back to Sylva with a load of lithium and titanite
13:19:46 <Wolf01> I need to find the last node on Sylva... I can't find it, maybe it's inside a mountain
14:16:08 <Alberth> hmm, someone added roadtypes :p
14:18:19 <Eddi|zuHause> the last one was very hidden for me, too
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14:32:14 <andythenorth> did someone mention newgrf docks? o_O
14:32:29 <Eddi|zuHause> are you reading 3 days ago?
14:42:12 <andythenorth> also how can I make grfcodec faster? :P
14:43:55 <andythenorth> it was PEBKAC again
14:44:08 <andythenorth> the full nml compile triggered because I pulled and got lang changes :P
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16:40:27 <andythenorth> supermop_work: it's Sunday, even in NY
16:40:40 <supermop_work> and yet, here i am
16:40:56 <supermop_work> i was in the office yesterday as well
16:42:26 <supermop_work> i may have said this before, but if i prorate my salary over the hours i work now vs at my last job, i'm make a lot less money
16:44:34 <supermop_work> last job was fun
16:45:49 <supermop_work> this one is 20% more money and more 'known' company, and presumably more mature / less start-up y
16:46:36 <supermop_work> but it's also between 25 and 50% percent more hours a week, and aparently not all that mature
16:47:34 <supermop_work> and i don't really get to do much designing anymore.
16:49:20 <supermop_work> on one project that takes most of my time, im just doing production stuff like i did as a junior right out of school, and the other project i only am managing two younger designers who do all of the fun parts
16:49:46 <supermop_work> how're the ponies
16:51:21 <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't sound like a good deal...
16:53:57 <Eddi|zuHause> would it be better if the red stripes flipped around in the middle?
16:54:24 <Eddi|zuHause> so it goes // // // // /\ \\ \\ \\ \\?
16:54:40 <Eddi|zuHause> where "/ /" is one wagon
16:56:27 <andythenorth> it would, but it's one of level of detail too far :)
16:56:34 <andythenorth> the complexity is already high
16:57:11 <Eddi|zuHause> but the end looks weird with the missing red pixels...
16:57:24 <Eddi|zuHause> and it should be a simple switch
16:57:39 <Eddi|zuHause> "position in consist > position in consist from end"
17:10:16 <supermop_work> based on a real livery andythenorth ?
17:11:52 <andythenorth> all your lokes belong to us
17:22:41 <Wolf01> Ok, enough astroneer is enough
17:23:48 <Wolf01> Yes, it is, at least for today
17:28:04 <Wolf01> So, how can I set the preferred audio device for a software? (win 10)
17:29:31 <Wolf01> Some apps use every output they see, others are bound to the default one :/
17:35:20 <Wolf01> Luckily I already use ear trumpet as audio mixer, but the option is really well hidden
17:38:52 <Eddi|zuHause> have you gone to the lander?
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19:01:56 <Samu> Maximum memory allocation exceeded
19:14:03 <Wolf01> <Eddi|zuHause> have you gone to the lander? <- yes, took the long way around, it was south of my base and I zig-zag travelled to north until I found it, I could have reached it by foot...
19:14:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't actually been to desolo yet
19:14:58 <Eddi|zuHause> but i have my rocket fueled up, just need to load it
19:15:03 <Wolf01> Also I got lost going back to the base, because then I travelled on the equator...
19:15:32 <Eddi|zuHause> i know that feeling
19:17:38 <Wolf01> Today I put a large shredder on a large rover, some batteries and started recycling every wreck I found, made a lot of credits
19:17:59 <Eddi|zuHause> i only have a medium shredder
19:18:22 <Eddi|zuHause> and half the items that look medium don't fit in there
19:19:22 <Eddi|zuHause> and it seems partially shredded stacks disappear from the shredder if you save and reload
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19:30:07 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc approved pull request #7663: Codechange: Remove unused FioTarFirstDir and FioTarAddLink functions https://git.io/fjMor
19:37:40 <Wolf01> That annoys me too, a lot of things get stuck when reloading a save
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19:38:33 <Wolf01> Smelters seem to have been fixed, but chemistry labs still get stuck
19:41:10 <Samu> strcmp("start_date", name) == 0
19:41:13 <Samu> !strcmp(config_item.name, "start_date")
19:41:39 <Samu> strcmp("start_date", name) != 0
19:41:47 <Samu> this confused the heck out o me
19:42:19 <LordAro> Samu: strcmp is weird, its return values are -1,0,1. While it *can* be used as a boolean comparison (0 == false), you shouldn't
19:42:55 <Samu> openttd uses that though
19:43:05 <LordAro> doesn't mean it should :p
19:43:27 <Samu> did you see my PR? what do you think of all that
19:45:34 <Samu> tried to do it " more sane, understandable and predictable." - your words *cough*
19:46:05 <Samu> dont know if the PR reflects that as you imagined
19:46:27 <LordAro> i probably don't either :p
19:48:11 <Samu> i didn't remove an unused string
19:48:25 <Samu> maybe i should put a note in there
19:48:53 <LordAro> sounds like you should remove it
19:51:56 <LordAro> wow FLHerne, are you trying to give out viruses?
19:52:28 <FLHerne> In what way is it supposed to be nonsafe?
19:52:30 <Samu> data is non encrypted bla bla, ok i proceed
19:53:02 <LordAro> FLHerne: lots of http images, which firefox is blocking for me
19:53:24 <FLHerne> Oh, so does Chromium, I just didn't notice their absence because they were all pointless
19:54:05 <FLHerne> I don't understand blocking mixed-content, at least while plain http sites are still accepted
19:54:43 <LordAro> depends what's being loaded
19:54:59 <LordAro> especially things like js - it could be MitM'd and load all kinds of other stuff
19:55:01 <FLHerne> It might slightly mislead the user, but most users wouldn't care if the whole site lacked SSL
19:55:51 <FLHerne> Yeah, but browsers are perfectly happy to load JS over http, so long as the page it's referenced from is also
19:56:55 <Samu> 've been coding in C for about 20 years, and about five years ago I spent an hour chasing a case where I'd done if (strcmp(arg, "foo")) instead of if (!strcmp(arg, "foo"))
19:57:08 <Samu> well that's the code openttd has there
19:58:13 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #7661: Codechange: Rework 'start_date' parameter for AIs as a game setting https://git.io/fjMop
19:59:55 <Samu> i'm not good at editing all the lang files to delete a single line :(
20:00:22 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: how broken on this list is something like openssl?
20:00:52 <Samu> i tried in previous PRs and it became a whole mess of a PR
20:02:35 <LordAro> by my count there are 3 !strcmps in ottd's source
20:03:04 <Samu> they're all start_date ?
20:03:56 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Quite a way down from what I've heard?
20:04:06 <FLHerne> Thankfully I haven't had an excuse to find out
20:05:09 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: i would have assumed so, but couldn't find a link
20:06:27 <LordAro> there are 145 "strcmp"s :p
20:06:41 <LordAro> (well, 145 lines containing strcmp, there may be more than one on a line)
20:07:10 <Samu> wait a min, im on my branch, :o
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20:07:35 <Beerbelott> Which cargo are being used t ogrow towns in Toyland?
20:07:56 <Beerbelott> I read toys replace goods, but supplying goods to a town doesn't make it grow
20:08:53 <Beerbelott> Suplying sweets & fizzy drinks (though not toys) doesn't work either
20:09:10 <Beerbelott> Do you need to supply *all* 3 to make towns grow?
20:09:56 <Eddi|zuHause> when i programmed the user interface for the last machine, i always went by the motto: "a person pressing random buttons should not be able to destroy it"
20:10:09 <Samu> it already grows on its own
20:10:33 <Eddi|zuHause> the product might be toast, but the machine should survive it
20:10:57 <Eddi|zuHause> and any truely dangerous functions are locked behind a password
20:11:34 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #7663: Codechange: Remove unused FioTarFirstDir and FioTarAddLink functions https://git.io/fjMam
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20:26:51 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, youtube, i certainly always wanted to learn how to build a shade or rain visor for my bee hive
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20:31:18 <Eddi|zuHause> Beerbelott: i've never played toyland for more than 5 minutes, but generally there's two things that have town influence: food and water. both need to be provided
20:34:51 <Beerbelott> In normal games it seems only goods were used to grow towns
20:35:00 <Beerbelott> Were those encapsulating any town need?
20:36:20 <Eddi|zuHause> goods have no special effect on town growth
20:36:40 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a widespread myth, but completely unfounded
20:37:33 <Eddi|zuHause> the only thing that affects town growth speed is the amount of stations serviced (meaning at least 1 unit of cargo loaded or unloaded recently)
20:38:02 <Eddi|zuHause> and towns don't grow if the required cargos (food, water, depending on climate) are missing
20:38:08 <Beerbelott> Ah. I was down for that myth all the way then :D
20:38:38 <Eddi|zuHause> GameScripts can override these rules
20:39:06 <Beerbelott> How do you know what atown *requires*?
20:39:14 <Beerbelott> I can see what some stations *accept*
20:39:54 <Eddi|zuHause> regular towns don't "require" anything, towns above the snowline require food, and towns in the desert require food and water
20:40:02 <Eddi|zuHause> possibly the town window now tells you
20:40:07 <nielsm> it will say if the town requires a certain thing to be able to grow
20:40:32 <Beerbelott> "Town is not growing"
20:40:47 <nielsm> start a vanilla game in subtropical climata
20:40:54 <nielsm> and check one of the desert towns
20:40:58 * andythenorth needs some way to implement liveries :P
20:41:00 <nielsm> it will clearly says it requires food and water
20:41:17 <Beerbelott> OK then this climate doesn't require anything special
20:41:37 <Beerbelott> I got passengers delivered from/to 2 other cities fro mthe current one. Sweets & toys are also delivered
20:41:54 <Beerbelott> I was delivering fizzy drinks but the stations (town?) stpped accepting them
20:42:13 <nielsm> that's the trick with toyland
20:42:31 <nielsm> the outer town zones accept one final good, the inner town zones a different final good
20:42:37 <Beerbelott> basically I am providing quite some stuff... THe town hasn't grown past ~2k initila population
20:43:11 <Beerbelott> Fizzy drinks area seems to move around
20:43:25 <Beerbelott> sometimes I need a final truck service to conenct station & town
20:43:39 <Beerbelott> then suddenly the station will accept fizzy drinks making my truck connection useless
20:43:49 <Beerbelott> it will flip/flop quite often
20:45:02 <nielsm> you could "cheat" and make huge catchment area station with lorry bays spread around
20:49:09 <Beerbelott> Yup. But I do those count as independent stations toward the local authority reputation?
20:49:25 <Beerbelott> because, as not having anything delivered, that could hurt the score
20:49:52 <Beerbelott> Well I did that in the past but cleaned them afterwards. Was probably a mistake
20:50:07 <Beerbelott> I still don't understand why the town was flip-flopping
20:50:16 <nielsm> fizzy drinks seems to be the inner city good, sweets the suburbs good
20:50:30 <Beerbelott> If only it grew, I could have understood that the curret needs were satisfied, and it needed to grow before resuming demand
20:50:33 <nielsm> although it also does seem that inner city can keep accepting sweets
20:50:46 <nielsm> (I just tried making a 20k pop city in scenario editor)
20:51:00 <Beerbelott> Yup if you position a lorry station in town, it always has sweets
20:52:11 <Beerbelott> Well the city I'm currently targeting accepts toys, sweets & fizzy drinks on the train station now. All 3 provided
20:52:38 <Beerbelott> Pax still delivered/transported from/to 2 other cities
20:52:41 <nielsm> toys is accepted by an industry iirc
20:52:44 <Beerbelott> (in very low volume though)
20:53:01 <nielsm> remember the most important for town growth is having four stations with regular *pickups*
20:53:22 <nielsm> up to four stations improve town growth
20:53:30 <nielsm> more than four has the same effect as four
20:53:36 <Beerbelott> Oooh. Didn't know that
20:54:14 <nielsm> which is why the best you can do to grow a town is place four bus stops in it and make a circle line
20:58:43 <Beerbelott> Feels like an exploit
20:58:53 <Beerbelott> But OK now I understand why I saw that often
20:59:24 <nielsm> you should see what the standard operating procedure in Citymania community is then
20:59:39 <nielsm> (CM is an OTTD fork based around citybuilder game scripts)
20:59:56 <nielsm> abuse station spread and distant join
21:00:20 <nielsm> to make an endless row of bus stops with alternating station names
21:00:55 <nielsm> bus starts, drives a tile, arrives at next stop, drives a tile without turning around, arrives at first stop again
21:28:22 <Beerbelott> nielsm: Thx for those tips :)
21:28:54 <Beerbelott> I am also noticing sth I am not used to. Is reliability now progressively improving over a vehicle's model life?
21:29:08 <Beerbelott> Is it sth specific to toyland climate?
21:29:49 <nielsm> it's normal that vehicle reliability starts low, rises to max, stays for several years, then drops off
21:30:08 <Beerbelott> I'm talking about stats for new models
21:30:17 <Beerbelott> Never noticed those were moving
21:30:35 <Beerbelott> models' description in sho
21:30:42 <Eddi|zuHause> they always did that
21:31:30 <Eddi|zuHause> that's why it's sometimes bad to pick previews, as the initial reliability could be very low
21:36:27 <Eddi|zuHause> that is a ... large... PR
21:36:42 <Eddi|zuHause> could use some squashing, i suppose
21:36:45 <nielsm> it can probably be cleaned up
21:36:56 <nielsm> yeah well as long as it's draft it can be messy
21:37:11 <Eddi|zuHause> and it'll fail all the commit checks :p
22:13:10 <peter1138> Is that up or down?
22:14:28 <andythenorth> 11 trains left to draw
22:15:31 <andythenorth> can probably just copy-paste them?
22:39:49 <Samu> crap, i thought i had published a branch i made 4 months ago and I didn't
22:43:49 <Samu> i am considering posting a win x64 build of this in the forum
22:44:02 <Samu> because, i dunno, i'd like some other ppl to try it
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23:34:10 <Samu> rebasing is failing hard... framerate_gui.cpp suffered so many changes in these last 4 months
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23:43:58 <Samu> oh right, memory allocation...
23:44:15 <Samu> that was bound to conflict
23:48:06 <Samu> WID_FRW_ALLOCSIZE versus WID_FRW_TIMES_OPCODES
continue to next day ⏵
