IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2019-05-18
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00:07:49 <andythenorth> chemicals tankers?
00:09:00 <Supercheese> ultimate intermodal
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00:49:59 <Eddi|zuHause> surely it's Bexels
00:56:42 <Supercheese> nah, sounds too much like a Dutch island
00:58:47 <Eddi|zuHause> don't they have a million of those?
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03:50:04 <SimYouLater> Can someone explain something to me?
03:50:07 <SimYouLater> =======StarRaid's NML patcher!======= Attempting to backup IH_AddonSet.nml Successfully backed up to "backups/IH_AddonSet-01-47-57-2019-05-18.nml"! Output : IH_AddonSet.nml File : IH_AddonSet.pnml Backup : 1 Verbose : 1 Opening "IH_AddonSet.pnml" as the main header. Patched src/header.pnml with no errors. Patched src/cyclops.pnml with no errors. Patched src/electra.pnml with no errors. Patched src/quicksilver.pnml with no errors. [K
03:50:56 <SimYouLater> Stupid IRC. Hold on.
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03:54:28 <SimYouLater> How do I join using HexChat?
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03:58:09 <SimYouLater> Okay, finally got an IRC client.
03:59:04 <SimYouLater> Can someone explain why pybuild.bat is spitting up a weird error?
03:59:11 <SimYouLater> =======StarRaid's NML patcher!=======
03:59:11 <SimYouLater> Attempting to backup IH_AddonSet.nml
03:59:11 <SimYouLater> Successfully backed up to "backups/IH_AddonSet-01-47-57-2019-05-18.nml"!
03:59:11 <SimYouLater> Output : IH_AddonSet.nml
03:59:11 <SimYouLater> File : IH_AddonSet.pnml
03:59:15 <SimYouLater> Opening "IH_AddonSet.pnml" as the main header.
03:59:17 <SimYouLater> Patched src/header.pnml with no errors.
03:59:19 <SimYouLater> Patched src/cyclops.pnml with no errors.
03:59:21 <SimYouLater> Patched src/electra.pnml with no errors.
03:59:23 <SimYouLater> Patched src/quicksilver.pnml with no errors.
03:59:25 <SimYouLater> [Knmlc ERROR: nmlc: An internal error has occurred:
03:59:29 <SimYouLater> nmlc-version: v6379:afad0c76c40b from 2017-06-19
03:59:31 <SimYouLater> Error: (UnicodeEncodeError) "'charmap' codec can't encode character '\u202c' in position 19: character maps to <undefined>".
03:59:34 <SimYouLater> Command: ['nmlc', 'IH_AddonSet.nml', '-o', 'IH_AddonSet.grf']
03:59:36 <SimYouLater> Location: File "c:\python\32-bit\3.3\lib\encodings\cp437.py", line 19, in encode
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04:02:32 <SimYouLater> Flygon? Suprcheese? Got any advice about this error with my NewGRF compiling?
04:03:38 <Suprcheese> might be like a UTF-encoding thing
04:03:44 <SimYouLater> It was working fine until I tried to complie something just a few minutes ago.
04:04:20 <SimYouLater> UTF-encoding... So how do I fix it?
04:05:24 <SimYouLater> I can convert encoding using Notepad++, right?
04:07:50 <SimYouLater> Is everyone busy, or should I just wait for a response?
04:07:54 *** Suprcheese is now known as Supercheese
04:10:39 <SimYouLater> All I know is that I can change encoding using Notepad++. Other than that, I have no clue what's wrong.
04:12:10 <Supercheese> Well try flipping it around I guess
04:12:24 <Supercheese> UTF-8 with or without BOM
04:12:31 <Supercheese> not sure which is better
04:16:13 <SimYouLater> No dice. It doesn't matter what encoding I use, it still gives the same error.
04:18:41 <glx> hmm \u202c is not a usual character
04:21:20 <glx> it's related to bidirectionnal text
04:22:41 <glx> maybe some RTL language strings in your file
04:22:49 <SimYouLater> Sounds like I have a character that shouldn't be there. How do I find and delete it?
04:23:19 <glx> it's not a visible character
04:23:45 <SimYouLater> Then how am I supposed to remove it?
04:25:11 <SimYouLater> RTL language strings doesn't mean anything to me. Please explain.
04:25:34 <glx> arabic or hebrew for example
04:26:27 <SimYouLater> I definitely didn't use any language besides english.
04:35:13 <SimYouLater> If the language isn't the issue, how do I fix it?
04:37:58 <SimYouLater> Then I need to update python?
04:40:56 <SimYouLater> Updating python, let's see if this works.
04:46:23 <SimYouLater> How do I update nmlc?
04:49:41 <glx> I don't see any commit related to that in more recent nmlc so updating nmlc won't help
04:50:12 <SimYouLater> Then what do I do?
04:54:48 <SimYouLater> I'm trying to work on the Iron Horse Addon, and this issue is preventing any progress... :(
04:56:53 <glx> I can't help more, I know nothing about python or nmlc source
05:01:50 <SimYouLater> Posted to the tt-forums topic for NML. Hopefully I can see this fixed.
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07:12:30 <Corns> Is 1.9.2 a planned release? What features will be pushed to it and how soon do i have to make a PR to get in?
07:25:46 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Hexus-One commented on issue #7430: Vehicle waiting at station affects cargo age rating even if it did not pick up cargo https://git.io/fj8lW
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08:22:56 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] MingweiSamuel commented on issue #7430: Vehicle waiting at station affects cargo age rating even if it did not pick up cargo https://git.io/fj8lP
08:33:21 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] MingweiSamuel updated pull request #7595: Possible fix for #7430: when train visits station, only reset time_since_pickup if has room to load https://git.io/fjlA7
08:37:53 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] MingweiSamuel updated pull request #7595: Possible fix for #7430: when train visits station, only reset time_since_pickup if has room to load https://git.io/fjlA7
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08:51:04 <andythenorth> so for docs, is RAIL 'Standard Gauge' ?
08:51:12 <andythenorth> or is it 'Normal' ?
09:40:14 <andythenorth> oof I now have to learn to draw steam trains :D
09:40:19 <andythenorth> never did that before
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10:06:36 <Eddi|zuHause> what did you do before? steal them from someone more competent?
10:09:09 <andythenorth> Dan drew them for me
10:13:13 <andythenorth> where is V453000
10:16:19 <Artea> my laptop cannot hold OpenTTD anymore :(
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10:51:48 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> so for docs, is RAIL 'Standard Gauge' ? <-- needs more context
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11:16:23 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I could give you context, but I no longer have a way to publish docs :)
11:16:30 <andythenorth> one problem always seems linked to another
11:16:53 <andythenorth> is there a way to publish HTML any more?
11:17:02 <andythenorth> it used to be just 'rent a server with sftp and apache'
11:17:17 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't understand your problems...
11:17:35 <andythenorth> there are html docs
11:17:44 <andythenorth> they need to describe the rail types for a vehicle
11:17:46 <andythenorth> you can't see them
11:18:22 <Eddi|zuHause> no, i mean the build and publication process has not changed, just the repo url... why can't you connect them for a year now?
11:18:55 <andythenorth> oh because I broke devzone
11:19:22 <andythenorth> and because there's no way to publish to devzone from Azure in the other case
11:22:34 <andythenorth> hmm buying web hosting is complicated
11:22:42 <andythenorth> I don't want cpanels and all that crap
11:26:33 <andythenorth> I no longer understand the internet industry :D
11:26:42 * andythenorth considering starting a farm
11:27:54 <dwfreed> rent a Linode (or get Linode to sponsor a machine for openttd)
11:28:47 <andythenorth> not renewable electricity though :)
11:33:52 * Artea on The Offspring - Walla Walla
11:36:00 * Artea on Eskimo - Party Pooper
11:36:16 <Artea> who is the party pooper in UK ? :P
11:45:56 <peter1138> That's the morning ride done with.
12:00:54 <Eddi|zuHause> that's not even a tour de france etappe
12:04:39 <dwfreed> the shortest stage of the tour de france that is not a time trial is 63 miles
12:06:12 <peter1138> As I said, not much.
12:06:29 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd maybe take the median etappe
12:07:12 <dwfreed> my personal record for walking distance is 26 miles, so you doubled that, at least :)
12:07:46 <peter1138> It's still 1600 carolies of more food I can eat ;p
12:07:47 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd also use metric
12:08:09 <dwfreed> just multiply these numbers by 1.609
12:09:10 <nakki> wait, wasn't peter in the uk? i thought you guys (mostly) used the metric nowadays?
12:11:41 <dwfreed> "Most British people still use imperial units in everyday life for distance (miles, yards, feet and inches) and volume in some cases (especially milk and beer in pints) but rarely for canned or bottled soft drinks or petrol."
12:12:20 <Eddi|zuHause> will there be a metrexit?
12:14:34 <nakki> ah, so the uk is pretending even harder to be an island in the middle of the atlantic instead of a couple km off the french coast than i thought
12:17:19 <LordAro> we have a specific EU exception for selling milk & beer in pints, rather than litres
12:17:55 <LordAro> peter1138: nicely done. i'm taking today off
12:18:44 <LordAro> and i also tend to prefer imperial units for distance & speed
12:19:07 <nakki> i guess it's a matter of what you're used to
12:20:05 <LordAro> helps that all the road signs are in miles
12:27:14 <peter1138> And because it was little early and drizzly, is was a solo ride, cos nobody else in the group turned up.
12:30:57 <andythenorth> do you get bored?
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12:50:00 <Beerbelott> Issi #7311 has been closed by stalebot, but PR #7339 still refers to it
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12:54:14 <andythenorth> it seems drawing steam trains is mostly easy
12:54:24 <andythenorth> the shapes are so irregular that the angles don't have to match up precisely
12:56:11 <LordAro> Beerbelott: as long as the PR is still open, i wouldn't worry too much
13:05:47 <Beerbelott> LordAro: OK thx. It just seemed strange
13:05:57 <Beerbelott> Have a nice day y'all :)
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14:10:35 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison opened pull request #7597: Fix #7594: Max speed rendered incorrectly in road vehicle purchase window when using original acceleration model https://git.io/fj8Bt
14:24:36 <andythenorth> is it unwise to require GH creds when running make?
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14:34:42 <andythenorth> hmm you'd have to have my creds
15:22:02 <peter1138> Why would you need github credentials?
15:22:16 <andythenorth> trying to figure out publishing
15:22:25 <andythenorth> GH pages wants a special headless branch
15:22:31 <andythenorth> to which one commits one's docs
15:22:41 <andythenorth> so to do that on CI means creds
15:23:06 <andythenorth> this does not sound good
15:23:13 <peter1138> You don't publish on CI though.
15:23:20 <peter1138> That would be turning CI into CD.
15:27:43 <andythenorth> so what publishes? o_O
15:28:09 <andythenorth> can't remember if Azure generates any useful artefacts
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15:40:33 <andythenorth> it's brainfuck :)
15:45:54 <andythenorth> frosch123 would it be better to maintain bundles, or replace it, or something else?
15:47:00 <kiwitree> I'm making newgrf train set
15:47:08 <frosch123> i would setup jenklins with docker on devzone and keep bundles as it is
15:47:32 <kiwitree> and I found that accessing var41 via var61 in callback 36 is not allowed
15:47:46 <frosch123> i think hosted ci/cd is too complicated, if you have many small projects
15:47:52 <frosch123> gh is already a pain with many repositories
15:48:00 <kiwitree> Is there any reason for not allowing access to var41 in callback 36?
15:48:11 <frosch123> noone wants to convifgure branch protection/commit rules for all the tiny projects like musa, nml, ...
15:48:49 <kiwitree> I think it does not cause circular dependencies
15:49:50 <frosch123> kiwitree: it's not about 41. 61 is disabled for cb36
15:50:45 <andythenorth> and would we use jenkins on devzone with GH?
15:50:54 <andythenorth> not Azure Pipelines?
15:51:09 <frosch123> repositories on gh are fine
15:51:19 <frosch123> they are no shared resource, most are worked on by single people
15:51:44 <andythenorth> so it's just jenkins configuration?
15:51:52 <andythenorth> to set the remote repo?
15:52:33 <frosch123> yes, pm already does that for some repos
15:53:01 <frosch123> no idea how well pm knows the jenkins vm on devzone, so no idea whether he can maintain/upgrade it
15:53:41 <frosch123> but to me both ottd and devzone have too deep history in their infrastructure
15:53:58 <frosch123> whenever you look for something, you will find 3 earlier implementation which are no longer active
15:54:04 <kiwitree> is there any plan for allowing it?
15:54:12 <frosch123> so, if you are not already familar with it, it may be easier to restart :p
15:54:22 <frosch123> kiwitree: no, noone wants to debug newgrf
15:54:42 <frosch123> newgrf people can't do it themself, and others don't want to
15:55:05 <frosch123> var61 for property callback is a road to hell
15:55:50 <andythenorth> it shouldn't be needed :)
15:56:00 <andythenorth> what case do you have?
15:56:40 * andythenorth wonders about maintaining jenkins vs. just using Azure Pipelines
15:56:58 <andythenorth> Azure Pipelines annoyed hell out of me, but once I learnt it, it worked very quickly
15:57:28 <andythenorth> but it would have to be given creds to publish
15:57:56 <andythenorth> does Jenkins have the devzone creds?
15:58:02 <andythenorth> bundles / devzone /s
15:58:41 <frosch123> they just have a shared disk, so yes?
15:59:17 <frosch123> you have some controller on the outside, run the compiler in some jail, and then copy the artefacts on the outside again
15:59:48 <frosch123> jenkins with docker would be the same. checkout the sources, run docker to compile it, copy results to bundles
16:00:17 <frosch123> checkout and publish does not run unknown Makefiles etc.
16:00:29 * andythenorth wonders if AP can hit a webhook on completion
16:00:40 <andythenorth> with the URL to the artefacts in the payload
16:03:22 <Gabda> Can I ask someone to have a look at PR 7025? It is kind of lost at the end of the PR list.
16:06:27 <andythenorth> we should close a bunch
16:07:54 <peter1138> Okay but I need to mow my lawn.
16:15:51 <andythenorth> how to do a carging aging bonus for freight cargos
16:24:03 <andythenorth> bonuses have to be implemented as maluses
16:24:16 <andythenorth> so if I want to bonus refrigerated wagons
16:24:21 <andythenorth> I need to malus food etc in box cars
16:25:19 <andythenorth> that means keeping a list of all cargos
16:25:24 <andythenorth> and using CB36 to malus some
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16:29:34 <andythenorth> wonder if I can reliably do it on class?
16:31:25 <andythenorth> maybe I malus *all* vehicles
16:31:38 <andythenorth> then change all FIRS cargos to halve delay rate
16:31:54 <andythenorth> then applying the bonus to just some vehicles will work
16:32:51 <kiwitree> andythenorth: I need the number of cars until next engine
16:33:11 <andythenorth> do you know the engine IDs?
16:33:26 <kiwitree> like [engine] [wagon] [wagon] [engine] [wagon] [wagon], I need 2
16:34:26 <kiwitree> yes, I know the engine ids
16:39:22 <kiwitree> for wagons, it's okay because var41 can do that, but for engines I can't get the number of cars until next engine
16:39:30 <andythenorth> not sure you can do this in cb36
16:41:43 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: can you think of an implementation of a cargo aging bonus?
16:41:54 <andythenorth> for freight, that doesn't require a list of all known cargos?
16:44:30 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] cosminCos opened issue #7598: openttd: symbol lookup error: /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libiculx.so.60: undefined symbol: _ZNK6icu_6012LayoutEngine14getCharIndicesEPiiR11LEErrorCode https://git.io/fj8Ro
16:45:56 <LordAro> incompatible with whatever version of ICU that is? 60?
16:59:43 <peter1138> We don't make 19.04 builds.
17:01:16 <LordAro> "teminal~ openttd" implies it's on the path, which means it's probably been installed via apt
17:01:24 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN closed issue #7598: openttd: symbol lookup error: /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libiculx.so.60: undefined symbol: _ZNK6icu_6012LayoutEngine14getCharIndicesEPiiR11LEErrorCode https://git.io/fj8Ro
17:01:27 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on issue #7598: openttd: symbol lookup error: /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libiculx.so.60: undefined symbol: _ZNK6icu_6012LayoutEngine14getCharIndicesEPiiR11LEErrorCode https://git.io/fj8Rd
17:02:46 <LordAro> perhaps they've just taken one of the older packages?
17:03:18 <LordAro> yeah, looks like it, that 18.04 depends on icu60
17:03:25 <LordAro> perhaps the version should be more restrictive?
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17:07:26 <peter1138> What version where?
17:10:04 <Corns> Is 1.9.2 a planned release?
17:10:10 <peter1138> It should already depend on libicu60.
17:11:04 <Corns> Just wondering how quickly ishould develop any patches i have in mind
17:12:09 <peter1138> 1.9.2 will not contain any new features.
17:12:10 <Corns> Like, any PR ideas i have
17:14:12 <LordAro> 1.10 is currently expected to be sometime later this year
17:17:10 <andythenorth> lots of windows are now odd
17:17:15 <andythenorth> odd padding and so on
17:17:32 <Corns> Is this with 2x gui scale?
17:17:32 <andythenorth> "screenshots or it's not true" :P
17:17:56 <Corns> Im on quad scale for my 4k screen
17:18:07 <andythenorth> the aspect ratios are weird too
17:18:20 <Corns> And the rail toolbar padding is paper rhin
17:19:31 <Corns> Are there any irc clients that are "always on" and can save the chat history while I'm away?
17:19:45 <Corns> Or do i have to leave my computer on 24/7
17:25:00 <Heiki> Corns: apart from the logs, there’s at least three possibilities: a) leave your computer on, b) find a shell provider (there are free ones, but I don’t know whether they’re any good), c) use Matrix (e.g. https://riot.im/app/), where this channel is available as #_oftc_#openttd:matrix.org
17:42:14 <peter1138> Corns, there is no trunk. There is only master.
17:42:57 * peter1138 delinks Strava from Fitbit. I'm fairly use it is doubling carolies for any activity.
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18:02:23 <Corns343434> Heiki: thank you :)
18:02:44 <Corns343434> @peter1138: isnt that the same thing
18:04:56 <Heiki> you’re welcome (: that Matrix thingy needs some fiddling around at first, but after that it is quite reliable (and free)
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18:20:20 <corns_mcgowan[m]> Does #/r/openttd have a matrix room too?
18:28:10 <peter1138> Is what the same thing?
18:34:55 <corns_mcgowan[m]> Trunk -> master peter1138
18:35:17 *** corns_mcgowan[m] is now known as Corns[m]
18:45:16 <peter1138> No, it's not the same thing.
18:45:44 <peter1138> Trunk is specifically an SVN convention, where files are placed in a subdirectory in the svn repository called... "trunk"
18:46:11 <peter1138> master is a git convention, and is just the main branch.
18:52:47 <Corns[m]> I will use both terms interchangeably:)
18:57:39 <peter1138> If you're still using svn, sure. But we don't, so that's wrong.
19:26:16 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 approved pull request #7597: Fix #7594: Max speed rendered incorrectly in road vehicle purchase window when using original acceleration model https://git.io/fj8EN
19:31:03 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 merged pull request #7597: Fix #7594: Max speed rendered incorrectly in road vehicle purchase window when using original acceleration model https://git.io/fj8Bt
19:31:09 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 closed issue #7594: Max speed string dparam set incorrectly in road vehicle purchase window when using original acceleration model https://git.io/fjlii
19:32:25 <nakki> honestly surprises me to find people in 2019 who program but haven't gotten used to git conventions
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19:55:07 <LordAro> nakki: git is by no means the only VCS used
19:55:09 <andythenorth> do refrigerated wagons etc really need a cargo aging bonus?
19:55:21 <andythenorth> or is it enough that they are different colours?
19:56:00 <andythenorth> I've run a test again, and confirmed again that cargo age period does nothing useful
19:56:11 <nakki> LordAro, it is p much the industry standard tho
19:56:44 <nakki> well, at least in my city's comp sci circles svn is considered pretty outdated and archaic
19:57:01 <LordAro> i didn't say it wasn't ;)
19:57:51 <LordAro> i know a few places that use SourceSafe
19:57:53 <nakki> i do, too, but it's something that's constantly complained about internally
19:59:11 <LordAro> when did that ever stop anyone?
19:59:19 <LordAro> but i think i mean Foundation Server anyway
20:00:45 <LordAro> but still, i would estimate about half of my developer colleagues have never used git before
20:01:35 <LordAro> let's face it, svn is so much simpler to use
20:02:21 <nakki> don't think i personally know any developer who hasn't used git
20:02:29 <LordAro> and as much as i'd like to use git, teaching everyone would likely fall on me :)
20:04:16 <LordAro> nakki: be aware of the "echo chamber" that comp sci circles can be - you're very biased towards people who are actively interested in learning new technologies, and not those who don't want/care to do any programming outside of work
20:05:19 <nakki> yeah i was just thinking about that, people i work with tend to be at the younger end of the spectrum, and most of my friends are from the natural sciences campus of the local university
20:05:38 <LordAro> bet you all like nodejs, rust & go as well :p
20:05:46 <nakki> sadly, i work with legacy java :(
20:05:56 <nakki> at least it's java 8 though, so i can stream away
20:06:08 <nakki> i'd probably do rust, kotlin or scala if i could freely choose though :P
20:06:50 <LordAro> i think the bits of Java we have are still on 7, due to eclipse3
20:07:21 <LordAro> my day to day is Ada though, so i always win these sort of contests ;)
20:07:34 <LordAro> it is Ada2012 though, which is nice
20:17:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Ada, the language that doesn't let you program ANYTHIG?
20:17:57 <LordAro> hmm? works well enough for me
20:18:08 <LordAro> very easy to pick up, coming from C/C++
20:18:42 <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't actually tried... just the bits i've seen were always about "this is more strict in Ada"...
20:50:45 <Corns[m]> What are your thoughts on autofund being added to master?
20:53:13 <Corns[m]> Like, the autofund button found in the btpro, n-ice, citymania clients
20:53:26 <LordAro> assume that no one knows what that is
20:56:01 <Corns[m]> It's a button that automatically funds new buildings for towns (ie it presses "fund new buildings" every 3 months)- you can toggle it on/off per town
20:56:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see much use for that outside these highly specialized city builder games
20:58:03 <Corns[m]> I was thinking that too, but i realised i use them to boost city growth when i want to build larger airports
20:59:17 <Corns[m]> Maybe we could at least let the current fund buildings function simply add to the counter instead of resetting it to 3 months?
21:00:15 <frosch123> what, automatic larva injection?
21:02:52 <Corns[m]> Wait what do you mean larva
21:04:28 <frosch123> when you played zerg in sc2 wol, you would have to do a specific action (inject larva) like every minute
21:04:47 <frosch123> later it was changed to do that automatically, and people said it was for noobs
21:04:53 <Corns[m]> Ive never played sc2 but my friends have
21:04:56 <frosch123> no idea how it is today
21:05:24 <Corns[m]> But yeah i reckon it would be a nice change for openttd considering its more casual
21:06:04 <LordAro> if you "need" to fund new buildings every 3 months, i'm not sure you're playing casually
21:06:12 <Corns[m]> For people who don't want to build 4-5 bus stops in a town just to force growth, they can rely on that instead
21:06:40 <LordAro> that's not exactly playing the game
21:06:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think you're looking at the right target audience
21:11:45 <Corns[m]> You're right, I wouldn't call myself an average player
21:12:36 <Corns[m]> what would an average player look for in the game?
21:13:55 <Corns[m]> Also when we add features, who do we cater for? I feel that not all features cater for all players either, as in some can be considered advanced features I guess
21:14:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm having two issues with this: including this button would a) send a message to the players that this is actually something you should do, or you're playing the game wrong, and b) the game suffers from too many (somewhat hidden) options and overloaded UI
21:18:54 <andythenorth> usually I need smaller cities :P
21:23:31 <Eddi|zuHause> in the event of the cold war turning hot, the west had planned to use "mini nukes" to cut bridges and stuff so the russians couldn't advance quickly
21:24:19 <frosch123> how does that help agains hoover tanks?
21:24:26 <frosch123> oh, right, they do not work on water
21:25:06 <andythenorth> I always found the idea of a ground war between nuclear powers odd
21:25:22 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: novelty items which only one was ever built does not usually make for a good weapon in an actual war :p
21:26:05 <frosch123> andythenorth: why? both have companies who want to sell weapons and ammunition
21:26:56 <andythenorth> frosch123: my assumption (probably wrong) is that as soon as you see enough tanks on the move, you just do a debilitating first strike on the other side
21:27:13 <andythenorth> and of course, they know you'll do that, so they have to strike you
21:27:34 <andythenorth> so if there's enough cause to have tanks cross the borders, the missiles will go
21:27:51 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it was rumored that the russians have some 2000 odd T-34 from WWII leftovers stored in some mountain, ready to go
21:29:00 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: interested in a maintainance job? it's future proof
21:29:47 <frosch123> it's mostly oiling and moving the parts
21:29:59 <Eddi|zuHause> they also had some captured german steam engines outside Kaliningrad, ready to go on the european standard gauge
21:30:06 <frosch123> and caring for the cats, who hunt the mice
21:30:42 <Eddi|zuHause> i believe those are scrapped now
21:47:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm fairly sure there are no cats around who witnessed WWII
21:48:17 <andythenorth> so which cargos should I malus for cargo age period?
21:48:22 <andythenorth> in freight wagons
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22:10:49 <Eddi|zuHause> you make a list of known cargos that fit in each category, and unknown cargos you make some guess based on cargo class?
22:11:52 <andythenorth> that's the implementation yes
22:11:56 <andythenorth> how to choose the cargos?
22:12:04 <frosch123> every wagon can carry every cargo? some have just huge penalties? :p
22:12:35 <andythenorth> an alternative is to just to drop the idea that, e.g. refrigerated wagons have any gameplay purpose
22:12:39 <andythenorth> it's much easier to do that
22:13:13 <andythenorth> I suspect I'm only using cargo age period because the spec suggests it
22:14:51 <Eddi|zuHause> isn't there a refrigerated cargo class?
22:16:43 <andythenorth> there is, but I've extended the idea of reduced cargo aging to other types of cargo
22:16:47 <andythenorth> which doesn't work
22:18:57 <Eddi|zuHause> then scrap that extended idea
22:21:16 <Eddi|zuHause> oberhümer had this idea for CETS that specific wagons get improved aging for all the cargos they can load, and generic wagons don't
22:21:31 <andythenorth> I had that idea too
22:21:41 <andythenorth> it's not possible, in any sensible way
22:22:33 <andythenorth> there's no implementation that supports it except either (1) on pathological maps (2) by tracking a very large list of known cargos, and doing some odd malus to generic wagons
22:22:37 <Eddi|zuHause> refrigerated wagon can load all refrigerated cargo. closed wagon can load (almost) all cargos
22:23:19 <Eddi|zuHause> hopper can load all pourable cargos, open wagon can load (almost) all cargos
22:23:19 <andythenorth> yes ^^ that makes sense
22:23:31 <andythenorth> that also makes sense
22:23:49 <andythenorth> but there's no possible non-complicated implementation of cargo aging for that idea
22:23:56 <andythenorth> unless I haven't thought of it yet :P
22:24:19 <andythenorth> because cargo aging relies on malus, not bonus
22:24:32 <andythenorth> so to give some wagons a 'bonus' the malus is applied to the others
22:24:41 <Eddi|zuHause> refrigerated wagon gets one setting, closed wagon gets another setting. all independent from cargo
22:24:48 <andythenorth> what setting though?
22:25:18 <andythenorth> I mean which newgrf prop?
22:25:35 <Eddi|zuHause> the aging period?
22:25:47 <Eddi|zuHause> other option would be capacity
22:26:04 <andythenorth> and the dice is re-rolled per game?
22:26:06 <Eddi|zuHause> the specific wagon can load more
22:26:27 <andythenorth> aging period is randomised on build :P
22:26:58 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see why it needs to be complicated
22:27:32 <andythenorth> you're aware that prop 2B can't give any bonus?
22:27:59 <andythenorth> for practical purposes, on practical map sizes, with practical train speeds
22:28:06 <andythenorth> and conventional cargo age curves
22:28:49 <andythenorth> so the complication is entailed in giving a malus to all non-special wagons
22:29:07 <andythenorth> without breaking existing cargo payment expectations, relation to running costs etc
22:30:05 <andythenorth> probably simpler to remove the feature from Horse :)
22:31:53 <andythenorth> I did consider 50% malus for all wagons, and then halving cargo curve gradient in FIRS
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22:33:43 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> you're aware that prop 2B can't give any bonus? <-- yes, but we're still talking about two static values, however high they are
22:34:23 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so either you have a specific wagon for each cargo, or you detect the cargos for which you don't have a specific wagon
22:34:40 <Eddi|zuHause> both should be known to you as a set designer
22:35:02 <Eddi|zuHause> by the inclusion/exclusion settings
22:35:11 <Eddi|zuHause> even without knowing all cargos
22:41:27 <andythenorth> is there an assumption that unknown cargos are just unknown?
22:41:35 <andythenorth> so have no malus?
22:43:18 * andythenorth tries to see the design
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22:50:40 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you have 3 specific wagons which have included/excluded lists, and a generic wagon. so for the generic wagon you check the inverse of the specific wagons
22:51:35 <andythenorth> ok so that entails setting more labels
22:52:16 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so for the generic wagon, the check is "would there be a specific wagon that loads this"
22:52:23 <andythenorth> so if a cargo is known, and is featured in a specific wagon, it gets a malus in generic wagon
22:52:37 <Eddi|zuHause> the cargo doesn't need to be known for that
22:53:30 <andythenorth> I don't see how to write a varact 2 to check a label, when the label is not known?
22:53:37 <Eddi|zuHause> the specific wagon has a list of known cargos, and a cargo class
22:53:59 <Eddi|zuHause> the generic wagon must mimic this check
22:55:19 <andythenorth> so the assumption is that the specific wagons all have specific cargo classes?
22:55:45 <Eddi|zuHause> no, the specific wagon can be whatever...
22:56:14 <Eddi|zuHause> the check will be the same (you can check against an empty set of cargo classes)
22:57:58 <Eddi|zuHause> your code generator will generate 4 switches, one for including specific cargos, one for excluding specific cargos, one for including cargo classes, and one for excluding cargo classes
22:58:19 <Eddi|zuHause> and repeat that for each specific wagon that the generic wagon should mimic
22:59:47 <Eddi|zuHause> the generic wagon needs a list of all specific wagons, and draws from each the include/exclude lists
22:59:57 <andythenorth> ok we've redefined 'complicated'
23:00:22 <Eddi|zuHause> well, you rejected the easy idea of having two static values
23:00:49 <andythenorth> explain that one again?
23:01:22 <Eddi|zuHause> the specific wagon gets one number, the generic one gets another
23:02:05 <Eddi|zuHause> bonus points for having a specific wagon for everything
23:02:40 <andythenorth> ok so the generic just get malus
23:02:50 <andythenorth> do I care about the gameplay effect of that?
23:02:59 <andythenorth> I'll have to reset all running costs again :)
23:03:10 <Eddi|zuHause> just add more wagons :)
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23:03:59 <andythenorth> is the logical conclusion to remove the generics?
23:04:11 <Eddi|zuHause> no, you need the generics for autorefit
23:04:58 <andythenorth> but you can only use them on short routes...
23:04:58 <Eddi|zuHause> however, i would probably only make an aging distinction for refrigerated, and make the other specific cargos benefit by capacity or loading speed or something
23:09:41 <andythenorth> I think that's inevitable, rather than a choice
23:10:09 <andythenorth> convinces me to forget about the aging bonus, it really is a pointless part of the spec
23:11:48 <Eddi|zuHause> it is not, but probably the wrong choice for your current design challenge
23:13:34 <Eddi|zuHause> the main idea behind it was a bonus for long distance passenger travel on large maps (1024+)
23:14:23 <andythenorth> for freight cargos, it's pointless
23:15:05 <Eddi|zuHause> probably (except for refrigerated)
23:15:05 <andythenorth> the pax implementation works fine as a malus, and it's easy to malus pax wagons
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23:16:40 <andythenorth> maybe I should play test a 50% malus as standard
23:16:45 <andythenorth> aggressive cargo aging
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23:44:28 <arikover> andythenorth: Hello! Translating Iron Horse again. What is the difference between a "plate wagon" and a "flatcar"?
23:45:14 <Eddi|zuHause> arikover: i don't think even he knows :p
23:54:28 <arikover> The last types added really look nice, but translating them is pretty tricky as they have quite similar purposes as other wagons...
23:55:11 <Eddi|zuHause> arikover: i think the distinction is probably miniscule and pretty semantical, and might not translate well
23:58:40 <arikover> Eddi|zuHause: I might as well make some translations up...
23:59:11 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds like a bad idea :)
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