IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2019-04-19
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02:30:19 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] bennyman123abc updated pull request #7521: Fix: Stop Construction Windows Closing on Company Rename (Issue #7479) https://git.io/fjYAS
02:31:49 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] bennyman123abc commented on pull request #7521: Fix: Stop Construction Windows Closing on Company Rename (Issue #7479) https://git.io/fjOGa
03:25:29 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nikolas updated pull request #7086: Change #6173: Update SDL driver to use SDL 2.0 https://git.io/fhamZ
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04:30:49 <Corns> Q: is the build rail toolbar Destructor called when the window is closed?
04:31:28 <glx> not directly on close IIRC
04:33:22 <Corns> Is there another function I can rely on to fire when the toolbar is closed , either by clicking the x button or pressing delete?
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04:40:18 <glx> hmm after checking code, window is just deleted when you click on x button, and delete just fire a click event on x button
04:40:34 <glx> so destructor should be called
04:48:56 <glx> it's just the real deletion is done later
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08:50:31 <peter1138> Should I have bought eggs?
08:50:52 <andythenorth> Aldi is the weapon of choice apparently
08:51:43 <peter1138> As I don't have kids, and I'll just go "Oh my god how many carolies!" I think I'll not bother.
08:53:00 <andythenorth> it's mostly about the hunt
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08:53:06 <andythenorth> not the chocolate
08:53:13 <peter1138> I suppose. We never had a hunt when I was little.
08:53:41 <peter1138> What's the point of NRT? All the NewGRFs seem to introduce tons of road types all the way back in time.
08:54:03 <peter1138> Is the date introduction thing wrong?
08:55:26 <andythenorth> I finish drawing teeny-tiny-Horse trains
08:55:32 <andythenorth> then I make some NRT in Hog
08:55:40 <peter1138> Well, yes, you showed me that a couple of days ago.
08:55:58 <andythenorth> HAUL (concrete, for around industries)
08:56:02 <peter1138> It's interesting, but... perhaps it could be added later?
08:56:17 <andythenorth> HAUL (gravel, for countryside)
08:56:27 <andythenorth> Electric HAUL of both kinds
08:56:35 <andythenorth> hmm, some normal roads?
08:56:51 <andythenorth> should I do anything with speed limits?
08:56:55 <andythenorth> like roads vs. highways
08:57:22 <andythenorth> then teeny-tiny industrial rail
08:57:33 <andythenorth> with and without catenary
08:58:04 <peter1138> Gravel, cobble, asphalt, and then... super fast highway.
08:58:26 <andythenorth> I need my NRT build
09:00:00 <peter1138> I want farms to place dirt roads to fields :p
09:01:58 <andythenorth> mumble mumble industry stuff
09:02:12 <andythenorth> farms are just a type of town? :P
09:02:19 <andythenorth> give them a road-grow loop
09:02:31 <andythenorth> industries can plant stuff?
09:02:40 <peter1138> They can plant trees!
09:02:42 <andythenorth> hmm, what if industries are just towns, and the tiles are houses
09:02:59 <andythenorth> so steel mill might expand, contract etc
09:03:02 <andythenorth> has roads inside it
09:03:17 <andythenorth> probably a bit turtles
09:03:40 <peter1138> But let's not get distracted :D
09:04:19 <andythenorth> turtles all the way down
09:04:34 <andythenorth> ok NRT is running
09:04:40 <andythenorth> now I have to sort Hog out
09:05:24 <peter1138> AI picks the best routes...
09:05:44 <andythenorth> ha I've loaded a non-NRT savegame
09:05:56 <andythenorth> vehicles stuck on tiles :D
09:06:31 <andythenorth> HAUL trucks on ROAD
09:06:38 <andythenorth> I switched the grf too, it's not a bug report
09:07:41 <andythenorth> oops crashed on exit
09:07:45 <andythenorth> maybe a new game :P
09:11:26 <peter1138> That's not really a useful stacktrace
09:12:04 <andythenorth> looked devoid of information
09:15:36 <peter1138> Is that a release build with no debug information?
09:15:46 <peter1138> Or at least, no asserts.
09:23:52 <andythenorth> it's compiled NRT PR
09:23:58 <andythenorth> but I don't know what flags I have set
09:24:50 <andythenorth> it's crashing when I try to use saveload menu
09:25:29 <peter1138> Can you try that with a regular nightly/master build?
09:26:54 <andythenorth> more faster compiling needed :P
09:28:22 <andythenorth> yeah asserts in master
09:28:30 <andythenorth> how do I increase debug level?
09:29:10 <peter1138> ./configure --enable-debug=3
09:29:21 <peter1138> For a full & proper stacktrace.
09:29:57 <peter1138> --enable-debug=1 for an debug build that is still optimized.
09:35:36 <andythenorth> ./configure --enable-debug=3
09:35:46 <andythenorth> I'm not getting any more trace than before
09:36:00 <andythenorth> crash is totally reliable so far
09:37:26 <andythenorth> ./bin/openttd -d 3 doesn't get me any different output :P
09:37:37 * andythenorth has to go paint a floor and life admin
09:42:20 <andythenorth> I bet the nightly doesn't do it
09:43:12 <andythenorth> oh the nightly does do it
09:43:48 <peter1138> At least it's not NRT :p
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10:13:04 * andythenorth wonders what changed
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10:39:14 <adikt> i love you guys because you recreated the best game ever. thank you!
10:39:43 <andythenorth> always nice to hear :)
10:41:03 <adikt> i made my grandfather order this game for me after playing it at my cousins house after he bought it for him from best buy. the game wasn't on shelves anymore and he had to order it from overseas. it was one of my best christmas presents
10:44:36 <peter1138> I bought it from eBay several years ago, heh.
10:46:52 <andythenorth> licensed original baseset!
10:47:04 <andythenorth> can you actually sell the license?
10:47:38 <adikt> i remember back in the day when internet was 28k dialup and i didn't have it and this was the best game i had
10:48:02 <adikt> next to scortched earth
10:48:51 <peter1138> That was fun in the in the DOS days.
10:48:59 <peter1138> Back before everybody multitasked.
10:49:39 <adikt> there's a couple games that are great today that i wasn't old enough to comprehend and i feel like transport tycoon was one of them. but i loved playing the games i downloaded off the cousins computer and transferring via floppy.
10:50:00 <adikt> man this is awesome nostalgia
10:56:20 <andythenorth> have you tried new content yet?
10:59:08 <andythenorth> peter1138: I found the failing rev btw ^^^^^^
10:59:28 <peter1138> Yeh, I recommend reporting it ;)
10:59:41 <andythenorth> we need some kind of ticket system
10:59:51 <peter1138> It only fails on OS X it seems.
11:03:16 <nielsm> hmm I probably should remove the real arena allocator from that squirrel allocator PR, and go back to just tracking memory usage
11:03:58 <nielsm> maybe leave in a debug mode (defined out by default) to use a map of allocation addresses to sizes to verify that squirrel VMs only touch their own memory and does it correctly
11:04:29 <nielsm> because I'm not going to write a general purpose allocator anywhere near as good as that in the runtime library
11:04:45 <peter1138> Hmm, this ship AI is dumb.
11:05:03 <peter1138> It placed buoys all around the outside of a lake instead of just crossing it...
11:05:20 <nielsm> maybe it thinks it's playing civ and only has triremes
11:05:45 <peter1138> It's basically going 3-4x further.
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11:18:29 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth opened issue #7526: 'Load game' triggers assert on macOS, introduced by 5b77102b63f77bfbad02ae3383b87fbef6e60e7d https://git.io/fjOWm
11:22:53 * andythenorth improves the report a bit
11:25:06 <peter1138> Iron Horse 2.0.0 Alpha 8, eh?
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11:30:06 <peter1138> V453000, is NUTS coded in NML?
11:30:21 <andythenorth> never release, just keep alpha-ing
11:30:36 <andythenorth> hmm, I could move to Chrome-style, just release revs
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11:33:02 <peter1138> Problem is your lack of compatibility.
11:34:36 <andythenorth> let's provide newgrfs with content migration paths!
11:35:15 <peter1138> Well, is it because NML doesn't ensure you reuse the same IDs, or is it cos you don't want to be constrained?
11:35:39 <andythenorth> it's because $reasons I'm hazy on
11:35:52 <andythenorth> but changing static properties causes 'broken' savegames
11:36:11 <andythenorth> changing vehicle lengths can crash OpenTTD
11:36:14 <V453000> single file of NML :D
11:36:17 <andythenorth> changing strings can crash OpenTTD
11:36:42 <peter1138> I'm wondering if the rail type strings should contain PUSH/POP_COLOUR, or if OpenTTD should handle that.
11:36:59 <peter1138> Just so WETRails (120km/h) shows up properly :p
11:37:31 <peter1138> It's a colour stack, it means save the colour, then you can change it, then restore once done.
11:37:46 <peter1138> Currently I think you change the colour, then change it "back" to black. But it shouldn't always be black :)
11:38:04 <V453000> so the hover state of 120kmh is not visible
11:38:11 <peter1138> OpenTTD can handle it, but maybe the NewGRF should. I don't know.
11:38:15 <V453000> because both hover and black are black
11:38:31 <peter1138> If OpenTTD handles it, then you can remove the black colour code.
11:39:04 <peter1138> But maybe the NewGRF should handle it, because it's the one 'messing' with the colour :)
11:39:17 <peter1138> And also I don't know how you put a PUSH/POP_COLOUR into NML.
11:39:20 <peter1138> Maybe it "just works"
11:43:06 <V453000> I don't mind either way I guess, but having a way to do it properly would certainly be nice :)
11:44:04 <peter1138> PUSH/POP was added... between 1.8 and 1.9 I think.
11:44:13 <peter1138> Yeah, April 19th 2018.
11:45:05 <peter1138> Ah, right, there's a list in NML, so currently you can't do it. Hmm.
11:47:27 <peter1138> Okay, I need... 2 unused characters.
11:47:33 <peter1138> Or fudge it onto another one.
11:49:45 <peter1138> So funny. These control codes were added but there's no way to use them :p
11:50:48 <Samu> RoadAI vs MpAI --- nobody wants to win
11:51:03 <Samu> it's the year 2792, started in 1950
11:52:00 <Samu> this depresses me, takes out all the joy
11:52:06 <Samu> of doing these tournaments
11:53:17 <V453000> well I generally don't follow which things get added unless someone tells me so I was completely unaware :)
11:53:42 <peter1138> V453000, I was literally telling you ;)
11:53:55 <V453000> you mean to day or? :D
11:54:21 <V453000> when it was actually new :P
11:54:21 <peter1138> Yeah, I didn't expect you to know, don't worry :)
11:54:52 <peter1138> It was added based on something Samu wrote, but we obviously didn't check it was usable. "lol"
11:55:45 <peter1138> Text colour stuff. Actually I think it wasn't.
11:56:32 <Samu> but there's not enough colours
11:59:18 <V453000> possibly all variants, green,artctic,japanese,tropic
11:59:21 <V453000> toyland can keep the gray
11:59:35 <andythenorth> V453000: that would be a +1
11:59:42 <andythenorth> sometimes MOAR choice is good
12:00:19 <V453000> yeah, now I'm just trying to figure out how the hell do I do it
12:00:33 <V453000> "just" colouring a grayscale isn't that easy to give great results
12:01:54 <V453000> one of the thoughts I had was that I could just grab the slope tiles from the game, create a tileable pattern, and apply that
12:02:57 <V453000> I find it to be a bit of a licensing gray area as of course it's starting from pictures that are from TTD or similar, but in such a crude way and refining so much that it's not really possible to tell
12:04:04 <peter1138> ^ Looking at this list
12:05:32 <Artea> does smooth_economy work in middle of game ?
12:09:03 <Artea> but not going see difference
12:09:42 <peter1138> Enabled or disabled?
12:09:53 <Artea> was disabled now enabled
12:10:09 <peter1138> Smooth ecomony is shit anyway.
12:17:27 <Artea> changed the number of clients (30) and companies (25) ;)
12:18:02 <andythenorth> smooth economy should die :P
12:20:12 <Artea> other player dont talk :(
12:20:29 <Artea> gave 1M euros and no reply :S
12:23:12 * Artea invites andy and peter to make chaos in his server
12:25:21 * andythenorth very life admin right now ;)
12:35:21 <peter1138> andythenorth, what does villages is villages do again?
12:35:43 <andythenorth> stops towns growing so fast I think
12:36:21 <andythenorth> I only tried it a couple of times
12:39:51 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN opened pull request #7527: Add: NewGRF string codes to access PUSH/POP_COLOUR. https://git.io/fjOl2
12:42:09 <peter1138> So yeah, adding that to NUTS is not going to be usable yet :p
12:47:16 <andythenorth> so how do I do NRT labels when only the surface sprite is changed?
12:47:35 <andythenorth> label is HAUL, but needs gravel and concrete variants
12:47:50 <peter1138> You can't currently.
12:47:54 <andythenorth> DO WE NEED A TYPE LABEL SCHEMA???
12:48:03 <peter1138> ButGroundTypes is not implemented
12:48:14 <andythenorth> so do we think that's a thing?
12:50:08 <andythenorth> I could probably just draw a HAUL road that looks ok everywhere
12:50:21 <andythenorth> so no, we don't need a whole layer of stuff and things to solve that
12:50:55 <peter1138> Do we need Ground Type labels?
12:50:56 <andythenorth> I don't know what other people do with NRT though :)
12:51:00 <andythenorth> we might need those
12:51:05 <andythenorth> maybe for stations too :P
12:51:11 <peter1138> Station ground types?
12:51:26 <andythenorth> not sure what they would do
12:51:35 <peter1138> If ground types are "a thing" then yes they could well be used on anything that overlays.
12:51:51 <andythenorth> I could make a magic station tile
12:51:58 <andythenorth> that uses ground from nearest FIRS industry
12:52:31 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh requested changes for pull request #7521: Fix: Stop Construction Windows Closing on Company Rename (Issue #7479) https://git.io/fjOl5
13:00:44 <pnda> The refit menu button is just greyed out
13:02:54 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc approved pull request #7527: Add: NewGRF string codes to access PUSH/POP_COLOUR. https://git.io/fjO8e
13:06:15 <pnda> What are these PUSH/POP_COLOUR codes?
13:06:25 <peter1138> save/restore colour.
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13:59:34 <peter1138> Damn, can't change or set a gamescript mid-game ;(
14:01:57 <Artea> it should be allowed multi GS
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14:38:49 <peter1138> Hmm, capacities in Unsinkable Sam are a bit high.
14:41:09 <Corns> What do you mean by "unsinkable Sam"
14:42:52 <peter1138> I mean a NewGRF called... "Unsinkable Sam" which contains... ships...
14:43:16 <Corns> I didnt understand your original sentence
14:49:50 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #7521: Fix: Stop Construction Windows Closing on Company Rename (Issue #7479) https://git.io/fjO40
14:57:12 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #7521: Fix: Stop Construction Windows Closing on Company Rename (Issue #7479) https://git.io/fjO4a
15:09:33 <Samu> year 3028, RoadAI vs MpAI, nobody wins
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15:20:36 <Samu> i needed a winner and a loser
15:20:52 <Samu> because it at least built something
15:23:45 <Samu> MpAI builds an airport, then crashes, then the aircraft also crashes, and bankrupts and repeats the same deal
15:30:10 <Corns> If the progress of the game doesn't matter you could potentially run multiple instances of the game at once
15:30:43 <Corns> And that'll save you time compared to running one match up at a time
15:31:33 <glx> but it's not competition then
15:32:46 <Corns> I was thinking if you are running best of eight, then you could run 4 instances of the game
15:42:14 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code) https://git.io/fhbqc
15:57:37 <glx> hmm manual CI builds skip some tests
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16:50:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i fear my sleep cycle is broken beyond repair
16:50:27 <peter1138> If you just woke, sounds likely.
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17:05:42 <Artea> that I going take a nap
17:06:12 <Artea> also, as I said yesterday
17:06:17 <Artea> I suck configuring stuff
17:06:40 <Artea> can't load the "Soap" in Limnoria
17:07:15 <Artea> another thing than is pissing me off
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17:09:00 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: truebrain was last seen in #openttd 4 days, 21 hours, 7 minutes, and 54 seconds ago: <TrueBrain> if that is the excuse, I am done
17:12:09 <andythenorth> peter1138: that wonky train, does it fit in the bounding boxes?
17:12:47 <glx> andythenorth: I don't understand what goes wrong in #7526
17:12:54 <andythenorth> planetmaker is newgrf eints also dead? o_O
17:13:11 <andythenorth> glx: I was inclined to blame my system, but the CF binary fails too :|
17:13:35 <glx> yes but the stack trace is not very helpful
17:13:48 <andythenorth> let's try and get a better one
17:13:51 <peter1138> Hmm. it's too *high* for the bounding box.
17:13:53 <glx> I guess it's in operator<
17:14:16 <glx> you said you got an assert in debug build
17:14:25 <glx> maybe you could post the message
17:14:41 <frosch123> andythenorth: i meant to look at eints since yesterday :p
17:14:47 <frosch123> it keeps sending emails
17:15:21 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #7526: 'Load game' triggers crash on macOS, introduced by 5b77102b63f77bfbad02ae3383b87fbef6e60e7d https://git.io/fjORd
17:15:47 <andythenorth> is that the crash handler crashing?
17:18:08 <andythenorth> one day, I will be able to draw some grf :)
17:18:48 <peter1138> Well you can. You just can't test them.
17:19:05 <glx> well both crash are the same I guess, as a bus error is similar to a segfault I think
17:20:13 <glx> but the crashlog still doesn't help
17:20:52 <andythenorth> is there anything else I can do to get a trace?
17:20:57 <andythenorth> step through it with a debugger?
17:22:42 <glx> place a breakpoint in FiosItem::operator< (fios.cpp:53)
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17:23:03 <glx> as the first crashlog says something is wrong there
17:23:17 <andythenorth> glx: assume I can't program, but I can paste things :P
17:23:39 <frosch123> glx: the issue is "if (_savegame_sort_order & SORT_DESCENDING) r = !r;"
17:23:52 <frosch123> that turns "<" into ">="
17:24:10 <frosch123> the comparator must not return true for equal stuff
17:24:55 <glx> hmm sort order changing in the middle of the sort ?
17:25:26 <frosch123> no, just some sort implementations fail with broken comparators
17:25:46 <frosch123> maybe they run into infinite loops and fill the stack or stuff
17:26:14 <glx> but if sort order doesn't change the comparison is consistent
17:28:09 <glx> ok I need to handle equality
17:29:28 <peter1138> original vs ironhorse
17:29:44 <peter1138> So... it appears to be about 2 pixels. Or something.
17:30:07 <peter1138> To me it looks like the bounding boxes for the original vehicles are off :p
17:30:43 <andythenorth> I never paid attention to the original sprite positions vs the BB
17:30:59 <andythenorth> I have seen Horse trains sticking out the end of platforms
17:31:31 <peter1138> The bounding box itself sticks out a bit.
17:31:45 <peter1138> Well, you can see that.
17:32:56 <andythenorth> the BB doesn't really align to the default baseset tracks eh
17:33:05 <andythenorth> should I fix this in Horse or which? :)
17:33:06 <peter1138> That's ... not baseset tracks.
17:33:19 <andythenorth> no, but I checked in my savegame
17:33:34 <peter1138> In my shot they are not centered on the tile, it looks like.
17:33:54 <peter1138> Well, fix it in Horse because the bounding boxes aren't going to change :p
17:34:23 <frosch123> you can't make it perfect, the movement of vehicles does not follow the original track sprites
17:34:53 <peter1138> Also, that articulated one changes position when it's reversed, which seems wrong.
17:35:43 <peter1138> The articulated steamer, that is.
17:36:41 <peter1138> I dunno what that is but it looks cool.
17:37:09 <frosch123> mainly to demonstrate how insane the default alignment is
17:37:45 <peter1138> frosch123, btw, any thoughts on #7527? It exposes PUSH/POP_COLOUR to NewGRFs.
17:38:09 <frosch123> i wondered, wasn't there a pop command in the past and we got rid of it?
17:38:28 <peter1138> Which is either what I meant to do, or it's meant to be use by the default language files only.
17:38:42 <peter1138> There was something but it didn't have a control code.
17:39:11 <peter1138> These codes work, but as they're not used by the language files, and NewGRFs *can't* use them, it's... uhm... wut...
17:39:37 <peter1138> Oh, we use it internally, so that's okay.
17:40:53 <peter1138> Previously we had SCC_PREVIOUS_COLOUR, but PUSH/POP is more useful.
17:41:09 <frosch123> so, it was meant for add-ons :p
17:41:16 <frosch123> maybe only gs at the time?
17:41:32 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 opened pull request #7528: Fix #7526, 5b77102b6: FiosItem::operator< must return false for equality https://git.io/fjO0W
17:41:58 <frosch123> gs can use what strgen knows
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17:42:20 <peter1138> Ah, so GS can use {...} codes directly?
17:42:25 <andythenorth> caterpillar train so good
17:42:59 <frosch123> gs use the same lang files as ottd, and ottd includes a part of strgen to read and compile them
17:43:00 <peter1138> So my question is should we expose it, or should it be handled by our lang files?
17:43:12 <andythenorth> I might name my offsets file as 'final_final.py'
17:43:15 <andythenorth> that won't jinx it
17:43:25 <andythenorth> I've 'fixed' offsets soooooo many times :P
17:43:33 <peter1138> Most NewGRFs never need it, and never need OpenTTD to handle it either.
17:43:51 <frosch123> so, what is the intention to expose them?
17:43:53 <peter1138> It's just the rare one that does something like... change the colour of a railtype text :)
17:44:13 <peter1138> NUTS adds WETRail with blue text, then changes "back" to black.
17:44:28 <peter1138> Except in the rail type drop down list the "back" should be to white.
17:44:29 <glx> andythenorth: can you try #7528 ?
17:44:35 <frosch123> that rather sounds like ottd should change, rather than changing nuts
17:44:39 <peter1138> But only if the item is highlighted.
17:44:48 <frosch123> something like {STRING_WITH_PUSHPOP_FONT}
17:45:15 <frosch123> i.e. when including external strings always restore previous font size and colour
17:45:20 <peter1138> Well, we can easily just put {PUSH_COLOUR}{STRING}{POP_COLOUR} in.
17:45:22 <Eddi|zuHause> i would find push/pop colour useful
17:45:26 <frosch123> i wonder, doesn't that always apply?
17:45:38 <peter1138> frosch123, yes, also maybe it always applies.
17:45:39 <Eddi|zuHause> like, i want to colour-code my railtypes
17:45:42 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, for NewGRFs?
17:45:56 <frosch123> hmm, probably someone expoits changing font in nested strings
17:46:14 <Eddi|zuHause> sanitizing it might be a problem
17:46:31 <frosch123> what would break if all SCC_STRINGx implicitly do a push and pop?
17:46:37 <Eddi|zuHause> but maybe we need a bigger "newgrf string sanitizer" anyway?
17:46:49 <peter1138> So... it may be worth adding the control codes for PUSH/POP in case someone wants to use them for something, but also do it manually?
17:47:04 <peter1138> frosch123, probably nothing?
17:47:25 <frosch123> i think i did some tricks in silicon valley, let's see what i did :p
17:47:54 * andythenorth wonders if original trains stick out of the other end of the tile :P
17:48:23 <Eddi|zuHause> implicitly doing it might work, for newgrf things that can do string stack stuff (via callback), but not for static strings
17:49:06 <Eddi|zuHause> and internally, i think the settings strings could benefit from push/pop
17:49:08 <frosch123> but it would also work if STRING did the push/pop automatically
17:49:19 <Borg> where I can download old OpenTTD releases?
17:49:35 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #7528: Fix #7526, 5b77102b6: FiosItem::operator< must return false for equality https://git.io/fjO0a
17:49:38 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: push/pop was added a year ago, so don't discuss the wrong topic
17:49:44 <peter1138> PUSH/POP would already work in silicon valley, right?
17:49:46 <glx> same location as current one Borg
17:50:35 <frosch123> peter1138: yes, i think so
17:50:57 <Borg> glx: hmm? I see only latest.. can switch version
17:51:17 <frosch123> though i think we also explicitly excluded some of the sprite characters, in case we would replace them with something else
17:51:59 <glx> hmm it was possible with the old site architecture
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17:52:52 <peter1138> Yeah, PUSH/POP around {STRING} works in that dropdown list at least.
17:53:16 <andythenorth> so do I change the offsets? Or ignore it :P
17:54:46 <peter1138> So the question is, would PUSH/POP break anything?
17:55:24 <frosch123> mostly when people use them asymmetrically :)
17:55:35 <frosch123> more pushes and pops and vice versa
17:55:36 <peter1138> Yes. I wonder if anyone does that.
17:55:47 <frosch123> some newgrf guy will
17:55:48 <glx> never trust newgrf writers
17:55:50 <peter1138> Oh, no, I meant would it break existing strings.
17:56:09 <peter1138> Like industry/GS text or something.
17:56:14 <frosch123> nah, it will look weird, and it will look differently weird when ottd changes the strings
17:56:15 <LordAro> glx: it would be nice if they were linked to from the actual website somewhere
17:56:17 <frosch123> so, i guess, blame the grf
17:56:39 <glx> LordAro: not sure this address will be always valid
17:56:53 <glx> 1.9.0+ are not listed there
17:57:10 <LordAro> i think there are download pages on the website, but they're not linked to from anywhere
17:57:44 <LordAro> yeah, that's what i mean
17:57:49 <frosch123> the binary index is not meant to be that accessbile
17:57:54 <LordAro> a page listing old versions
17:58:19 <LordAro> frosch123: i didn't link the binaries link :p
18:00:18 <glx> yeah I used the old way ;)
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18:09:24 <andythenorth> so how do depots work then?
18:09:53 <andythenorth> I switched grf on my savegame from Hog to NRT Hog, expecting OpenTTD to crash, or at least warn
18:10:09 <andythenorth> the HAUL vehicles are able to move around in a ROAD depot
18:10:21 <andythenorth> which is kinda handy, but unexpected :P
18:11:49 <peter1138> Bah, can't find my hall-effect sensors.
18:12:06 <peter1138> Not surprising my desk area is a tip.
18:15:57 <Artea> why property maintenance is -300,000 euros ?
18:16:15 <Artea> like, for the one who dont have it
18:16:53 <Artea> it shouldn't count, right ?
18:17:26 <Artea> property is the HQ, right ?
18:18:30 <Artea> the other player don't have HQ, but property maintenance still counts
18:18:42 <peter1138> Do you have infrastructure maintenance enabled?
18:20:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i think property is mostly stations, if maintenance is disabled
18:22:15 <peter1138> HQ doesn't actually add anything to property maintenance except when you build it.
18:22:33 <peter1138> (As a one-off cost, I mean)
18:23:07 <andythenorth> FELD for feldbahn?
18:23:37 <andythenorth> maybe there's a label already
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18:23:47 <Artea> I wonder if there is Portuguese trains in OTTD
18:24:02 <frosch123> andythenorth: eints should be fine again
18:25:40 * andythenorth looks for the NRT label schema
18:26:10 <peter1138> frosch123, was any of ButGroundTypes ever implemented?
18:26:35 <peter1138> And... is it a worthwhile idea still?
18:27:19 <peter1138> "Since road-/tramtypes are not directly stored in the map"
18:30:32 <andythenorth> Artea: I might do generic Euro trains one day
18:30:41 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: does it really need a separate type?
18:30:50 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: dunno, let's talk labels :)
18:31:04 <peter1138> Isn't feldbahn just narrow gauge?
18:31:04 <andythenorth> how do the label schemas work?
18:31:16 <peter1138> Is that a tram or a rail type?
18:31:19 <andythenorth> Artea: there's quite a few English trains in portugal
18:32:20 <andythenorth> so electrified tram is ELRL?
18:32:27 <andythenorth> and non-electric tram is RAIL?
18:33:03 <andythenorth> this 'add EL' approach to labels
18:33:04 <peter1138> Yes, 'ELRL' is defined by default, sorry.
18:33:22 <frosch123> peter1138: nothing was implemented
18:33:40 <andythenorth> what does HOG do
18:33:52 <frosch123> it is mostly me complaining about newgrf authors using nrt for visual stuff, while the spec is about vehicle compatibilt
18:34:10 <andythenorth> oh this is what Horse does for electric NG
18:34:11 <andythenorth> ELNG: [NAAE, ENLW, ENHI, ELNG]
18:34:17 <andythenorth> how does that even work?
18:34:24 <andythenorth> I cargo-culted that
18:34:24 <frosch123> another idea was to combine the road and tram type bits into 256 combinations of road/tram types
18:34:28 <frosch123> instead of fixed 16x16
18:35:19 <frosch123> kind of like station spec allocation
18:35:24 <andythenorth> "Electrified 600mm industrial trains also suitable for farms"
18:35:29 <frosch123> you fill the ids you use them
18:35:38 <frosch123> and at some point you get "too much road/tram variety" :p
18:35:45 <andythenorth> I can never take schemas seriously :(
18:36:15 <andythenorth> at work, we have been burnt by clever human readable schemas too often
18:36:21 <peter1138> Yes, that was an idea I had had as well.
18:36:25 <andythenorth> now we just usually start at '1' and increment
18:36:33 <peter1138> Although currently we just do 64 & 64 types.
18:37:00 <peter1138> And that's kinda wasteful, as road and tram are shared now.
18:37:43 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: what's the question?
18:37:46 <peter1138> I removed roadsubtypes.
18:37:57 <frosch123> so you can now build two roadtypes on a tile?
18:38:02 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: haven't read any of your ramblings before
18:38:11 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: let's go with the use case: I need plausible labels for feldbahn with and without electrified catenary
18:38:17 <andythenorth> as a roadtype label
18:38:23 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc approved pull request #7528: Fix #7526, 5b77102b6: FiosItem::operator< must return false for equality https://git.io/fjOE3
18:38:36 <peter1138> So road/tram work the same as far as NewGRF is concerned, they are still separate, but they share the same indices.
18:38:53 <peter1138> So there's only one road type list internally.
18:39:10 <peter1138> All the crap with roadtypeidentifiers is gone.
18:39:32 <frosch123> so you took the rtid and bit-coded it into a single integer?
18:39:38 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the point of the railtype label scheme is to identify things commonly done by different newgrf authors, and preventing everyone to make only his own sets working together
18:39:38 <peter1138> It's not bit-coded.
18:40:03 <frosch123> so you always look up whether the type is road or tram?
18:40:10 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so one could take vehicle grf from author A and track grf from author B and they still work
18:40:12 <frosch123> or do you always check both types on a tile?
18:40:30 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: without all that much glue-code
18:40:52 <frosch123> well, no idea then :p sounds weird to mix stuff that never interacts
18:40:56 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so the question is not, what YOUR use case is, but what EVERYONE'S use cases are
18:41:06 <andythenorth> well everyone isn't here :P
18:41:10 <andythenorth> and that's why I'm asking
18:41:21 <andythenorth> but now we've found the question, what's the answer :D
18:41:48 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: say, if someone is provinding harbour/port railway, that's probably the same thing as industrial Feldbahn?
18:42:40 <peter1138> frosch123, yes, I'm still not sure it's the right way, but the code is much simpler.
18:43:00 <peter1138> No Pack(). No UnpackIfValid().
18:43:06 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: at this scale, it probably is the same yes
18:44:02 <peter1138> You get 63 possible total road and tram types, in any combination.
18:44:05 <andythenorth> and I don't mind it not being 'feldbahn'
18:44:15 <andythenorth> it's just conveniently accurate description
18:44:24 <andythenorth> could be industrial trains or something
18:44:25 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the other thing that a railtype scheme does is define whose responsibility is to provide the compatibility, the vehicle set author or the track set author
18:45:00 <Eddi|zuHause> so the vehicle set author knows what to reasonably expect the track set to define (or not define)
18:45:31 <andythenorth> and NG6E for electrified
18:45:51 <Eddi|zuHause> that's not part of the standardized scheme
18:46:51 <Eddi|zuHause> and that compatible list at the end seems wrong
18:48:04 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 merged pull request #7528: Fix #7526, 5b77102b6: FiosItem::operator< must return false for equality https://git.io/fjO0W
18:48:11 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 closed issue #7526: 'Load game' triggers crash on macOS, introduced by 5b77102b63f77bfbad02ae3383b87fbef6e60e7d https://git.io/fjOWm
18:48:26 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: maybe i'm missing things while skimming over this code, but it seems like a bad example
18:50:15 <frosch123> Artea: that's caging. set it free
19:00:04 <peter1138> Maybe I should de-unsplit road and tram again :/
19:00:45 <peter1138> Cos 17:40 < frosch123> well, no idea then :p sounds weird to mix stuff that never interacts
19:01:50 <Eddi|zuHause> but then road and tram should be split across the board (getting separate newgrf feature and stuff)
19:02:20 <peter1138> They already have separate newgrf features.
19:02:23 <Eddi|zuHause> not this half-hearted splitting that adds more confusion than clarity
19:03:06 <Eddi|zuHause> really? i was under the impression tram is road, with a property, not a separate feature
19:03:08 <peter1138> road types and tram types are split within NewGRF.
19:03:11 <peter1138> But road vehicles aren't.
19:03:22 <frosch123> peter1138: can you link the diff that merges them?
19:03:33 <frosch123> i still have no idea what it actually means
19:03:34 <peter1138> frosch123, no, I've been rebasing :p
19:03:52 <Eddi|zuHause> as long as the vehicles are mixed, it doesn't make much sense to keep the tracks separate
19:04:18 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: trams are very different to rv
19:04:25 <frosch123> different movement, different track rules
19:04:43 <LordAro> but similar everything else?
19:04:44 <frosch123> two years ago the were completely orthogonal to road in nrt
19:04:48 <frosch123> no idea what it is now
19:04:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think we have the same definition of "very" then
19:05:10 <peter1138> They use the same tick handler...
19:05:17 <peter1138> That's not particularly split :p
19:05:31 <peter1138> If I see a tram_cmd.cpp then I'll change my mind on that.
19:06:15 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: there was this artificial separation to have two sets of 16 (or 15) types, because one set was too limited. but it was internally totally horrible and the naming was all wrong
19:06:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i think there are more reasons to mix them than to separate them
19:07:17 <peter1138> The resolver is the same as well.
19:07:55 <peter1138> So tiles still have a road type and tram type.
19:07:59 <frosch123> well, 5 people, 5 opinions :)
19:08:01 <peter1138> That has not changed.
19:08:18 <peter1138> Just they are indices into the same list.
19:08:53 <frosch123> yes, but you said it would make stuff easier, while i wonder why stuff doesn't get harder if you always have to distinguish them
19:09:20 <peter1138> It doesn't because you already always had to distinguish them anyway.
19:09:27 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: you'd need to go at least one level higher up to properly separate them
19:09:32 <frosch123> in the current pr, i find various "bool tram"
19:09:35 <frosch123> which where an enum before
19:09:53 <frosch123> so, did you turn roadsubtype into roadtype, and roadtype into bool?
19:10:23 <peter1138> And yes, "bool tram" is sucky too, but it's internal.
19:10:53 <peter1138> Exposing roadtype & roadsubtype to every caller made it more complex.
19:11:20 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: the name "roadsubtype" was completely wrong, because everyone assumed "roadtype" was similar to "railtype" as in the thing that gets the label
19:11:29 <frosch123> so, essentiallly rtid got replaced by "bool tram = RoadTypeIsTram(rt);"
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19:11:56 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
19:12:35 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: so renaming roadsubtype into roadtype is definitely clearer to the average reader
19:12:36 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: INNN and INNE?
19:12:52 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: it was also considered to add TRANSPORT_TRAM
19:12:54 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: what's all the N?
19:13:13 <andythenorth> INdustrial Narrow gauge Not-electrified
19:13:23 <frosch123> peter1138: so, what about labels?
19:13:28 <andythenorth> there needs to be a term equivalent to bikeshedding
19:13:51 <frosch123> can i have both road and tram with label ELRL?
19:14:51 <frosch123> in old nrt, vehicles specified misc_flag tram and a sbutype label
19:14:59 <frosch123> is the misc_flag now obsolete?
19:15:03 <frosch123> or do they need to match?
19:15:07 <peter1138> They need to match.
19:15:33 <peter1138> misc_flag could be obsolete but that would break existing tram sets, so it's not.
19:15:53 <frosch123> i am more concerned about disconnected-road-vehicles
19:16:07 <frosch123> road and tram movement is incompatible wrt. movement frames
19:16:19 <frosch123> if you convert a road vehicle to a tram, ottd prboably still crashes
19:17:11 <frosch123> the flags helps to prevent newgrf authors carelessly assigning the same label the 3rd rail busses and trams
19:17:39 <peter1138> The flag is still there...
19:18:12 <frosch123> good, can we remove all powerness/compatibility stuff? and make it pure visual?
19:18:46 <andythenorth> frosch123 has adopted the andythenorth approach to proposals :P
19:19:01 <andythenorth> nuke it with fire
19:19:10 <peter1138> I dunno, I think people things like heavy haulage stuff that can't go on normal roads.
19:19:52 <frosch123> but they could also use waypoints
19:20:41 <peter1138> (Back to articulated parts, the roadtype of articulated parts is always forced to be the same as the head)
19:20:58 <andythenorth> hmm, flying spiders here
19:21:02 <frosch123> yes, that's the same for trains
19:21:05 <peter1138> Well, there aren't road waypoints :p
19:22:07 <andythenorth> I expect 'Trams' to give me all trams
19:22:09 <peter1138> So *I'm* convinced this way is simpler, but because it's all squashed to heck, there's no history to prove i :p
19:22:24 <andythenorth> I guess it's because historically 'trams' have always been electric in OpenTTD :P
19:22:28 <peter1138> (And anyway, the history would just be more complex cos of changing it from one way to the other)
19:22:35 <peter1138> Maybe I can rebase the old version and compare.
19:23:06 <frosch123> i think it's mostly the same
19:23:17 <frosch123> except for RoadType vs bool
19:24:05 <peter1138> Perhaps I could change that but it can't be RoadType.
19:24:34 <frosch123> though i guess id allocation could consider road/tram, and sort road into id 0 to 63, and tram into id 64 to 127
19:25:02 <peter1138> That's also a possibility.
19:25:10 <frosch123> hmm, though that is unneccessary when merging the ids in the map array into dynamically allocated road/tram combinations
19:25:45 <frosch123> every problem can be solved with another level of indirection
19:26:55 <Artea> Clients: 2 / 25 (2 / 15 companies; 0 / 15 spectators)
19:27:11 <Artea> I set number of companies to 20
19:29:23 <Artea> seems 10 will have share companies then
19:31:54 <andythenorth> except too many levels of indirection :P
19:35:09 <andythenorth> how about TINY for Feldbahn?
19:35:09 <andythenorth> and TINE for electrified version
19:35:09 <andythenorth> labels don't have enough lolz
19:37:24 <frosch123> raillabels have the same issues as stated for groundtyps
19:37:37 <frosch123> a label is both the visual appearance and the compatibliity
19:37:58 <frosch123> you likely only want 5 compatibiolities, but have 100 visual appearances
19:39:00 <frosch123> the unified schema cannot represent visual differences
19:39:03 * andythenorth isn't convinced it's needed, but what was 'needed' ever?
19:39:07 <andythenorth> 64 cargos needed?
19:39:38 <frosch123> poeple wanted more than 32, so just drown them in cargos
19:39:53 <andythenorth> so the main thing is, how could we make NRT results more lolz?
19:40:00 <andythenorth> and less arguing about tedious things :D
19:40:01 <frosch123> and dropdown menus with string filter to search for railtypes
19:40:29 <Eddi|zuHause> <frosch123> the unified schema cannot represent visual differences <-- i'd say it definitely doesn't want to represent them.
19:41:07 <frosch123> well, because you can't
19:41:26 <frosch123> visual differences have no labels, you just need one for some reason
19:41:42 <Eddi|zuHause> the track set can define any number of undocumented visual railtypes, as long as it provides compatibility to the listed scheme types
19:41:48 <frosch123> only nuts vehicles care about the visuals of their tracks
19:42:21 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: isn't "dynamic typing" unmodern?
19:43:02 <frosch123> so prefix all labels with "v" and "c" to distinguish visual and compatibliity labels
19:43:57 <frosch123> andy can use labels "vANa" to "vANz" and add all the weird "cxxx" as compatible
19:44:40 <andythenorth> how about visual is 'l'?
19:44:48 <andythenorth> then I can do 'lolz'
19:45:35 <andythenorth> also Blitz people use 'lel_ for some reason
19:45:55 <frosch123> use "þ" if you want to scare old nfo people
19:48:05 <frosch123> andythenorth: we need the "l" and "r" do distinguish the driving side
19:48:15 <frosch123> so for "rofl" the signals are on the other side of the track
19:48:23 <andythenorth> then we need to allow the newgrf to specify offsets per drive side :P
19:49:18 <andythenorth> MOAR is probably right side
19:49:51 <andythenorth> can newgrf specify the vehicle track to follow?
19:50:01 * andythenorth plans really big mining trucks, center of the tile
19:50:02 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm too distracted to figure out when the discussion entered troll mode
19:50:12 <andythenorth> it's not quite troll mode yet
19:50:15 <Eddi|zuHause> count me out of here for the weekend
19:50:31 <frosch123> andythenorth: you can specify different offsets for driving side
19:50:38 <frosch123> the grf will just be twice as big
19:50:53 <frosch123> not important unless you are V
19:51:32 <andythenorth> is it rage quit season? :(
19:52:00 <andythenorth> I've never seen Eddi quit the channel before :(
19:52:19 <andythenorth> and Truebrain has RQ, and I did twice recently and nielsm did recently
19:53:40 <andythenorth> peter1138: now I can't stop noticing trains sticking out the end of the track :(
20:01:53 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: not rage, just too preoccupied
20:02:58 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] bennyman123abc commented on pull request #7521: Fix: Stop Construction Windows Closing on Company Rename (Issue #7479) https://git.io/fjOuh
20:03:43 <andythenorth> peter1138: no! I must NRT :)
20:04:15 <andythenorth> we're not about to abandon NRT, right? :P
20:04:16 <peter1138> I'm converting all "bool tram" to "RoadTramType rtt"
20:04:20 <peter1138> See if that makes it clearer :p
20:04:41 <frosch123> andythenorth: it's easy by discussing more
20:05:25 * andythenorth adds more types to the Hog rtt
20:05:35 <andythenorth> actually to the ttt
20:05:50 <andythenorth> or maybe I should do these multi-mode types?
20:07:01 <andythenorth> railtypes, it's prop 10, bit 2 to hide
20:07:09 <andythenorth> is that same for roadtypes?
20:07:58 <andythenorth> oh, I can add high speed tracks with a curve bonus?
20:08:06 <andythenorth> so I can do super-elevated railtype?
20:08:26 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] bennyman123abc updated pull request #7521: Fix: Stop Construction Windows Closing on Company Rename (Issue #7479) https://git.io/fjYAS
20:12:58 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] bennyman123abc updated pull request #7521: Fix: Stop Construction Windows Closing on Company Rename (Issue #7479) https://git.io/fjYAS
20:15:30 <andythenorth> peter1138: I can't or I shouldn't? :P
20:15:40 <andythenorth> as far as I tell, I can implement it :P
20:16:51 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] bennyman123abc updated pull request #7521: Fix: Stop Construction Windows Closing on Company Rename (Issue #7479) https://git.io/fjYAS
20:17:52 <andythenorth> I wasn't going to do visuals for it :)
20:18:03 <andythenorth> although there is that curve var for trains
20:18:17 <andythenorth> hmm, maybe my tilting train sprites should actuallly tilt
20:18:23 <andythenorth> I think pikka did that
20:19:06 <andythenorth> have we got any docs for NRT?
20:21:51 <peter1138> Hmm, well, this found a few bugs.
20:23:37 <peter1138> (ROADTYPE_ROAD/ROADTYPE_TRAM used instead of bool)
20:23:48 <peter1138> bool is not very type-safe, apparently.
20:36:14 * andythenorth wonders how the hide works
20:36:31 <andythenorth> specifically, do I need to patch nml for it?
20:36:48 <andythenorth> railtype prop 10, bit 2, is there an equivalent for roadtypes?
20:36:53 <andythenorth> and do I need to do nml support?
20:37:02 <andythenorth> can't see it in the code, might be looking wrong place
20:38:59 <peter1138> That's the rebased nmlc-with-nrt-support.
20:52:12 <V453000> please remind me, what influences how quickly newgrf industries die?
21:09:20 <LordAro> V453000: how much andy has complained about it in the last week
21:09:47 <V453000> well I mean YETI in this case, he should not have much influence on those hopefully :P
21:10:28 <nielsm> if you implement the production change callback for your industry then the newgrf controls when and why it closes, if ever
21:10:46 <V453000> about 3/4 of our industries on a server seem to have died in 10 years, first of all I'm not sure if that's an acceptable number considering that some others have reappeared, but second of all I can't even find settings in the game, or definitions in YETI NML which would influence dying :D
21:11:56 <andythenorth> V453000: is smooth economy on?
21:12:14 <nielsm> otherwise the rule is something like, secondary industries have a chance of closing every production change if they haven't received cargo in 5 years, primary industries close if their production change results in lowering production when it's already at minimum
21:12:29 <V453000> I'm pretty sure it is andy
21:12:45 <V453000> yeah here it would be secondaries only
21:12:54 <V453000> so basically they have 5 year life and then it's likely they close
21:12:58 <andythenorth> as far as I can tell, smooth economy will wipe out your industries really quickly
21:13:10 <andythenorth> I might have misunderstood
21:13:28 <andythenorth> but non-smooth closes them using a random chance on top of a random walk
21:13:40 <andythenorth> if I've understood
21:14:10 <andythenorth> smooth afaict just closes them all after the 5 year protection period
21:14:29 <andythenorth> I am doing some wavey hands
21:14:35 <andythenorth> it's all in industry_cmd.cpp
21:14:51 <V453000> I don't read cpp yet :P
21:15:27 <Borg> andythenorth: afair in both cases its 5 years
21:15:33 <Borg> maybe you close time is a bit randomized
21:15:52 <Borg> but maybe just a bit.. I run only on non-smooth economy and I see industries close after 5 years..
21:16:09 <Borg> with usual message: Supply problems....
21:16:52 <andythenorth> the 5 year protection is common to both
21:17:53 <V453000> is there a way to extend the 5 year period by newgrf?
21:18:12 <andythenorth> not in a way that's worth doing no
21:18:34 <andythenorth> you can 'control' it by handling the production cb, both monthly and random
21:18:43 <andythenorth> but you can't do much useful with it
21:19:42 * andythenorth wonders about newgrf code to add some seed to the protection period, maybe the town ID
21:21:45 <andythenorth> that's a funny version of OpenTTD
21:22:36 <nielsm> it's a new opengl patch I'm working on
21:26:09 <Borg> andythenorth: if I understand it right
21:26:24 <Borg> smooth economy makes it much more smooth.. because chance there is much smaller to close the industry
21:26:41 <andythenorth> Borg: so I have it backwards?
21:26:42 <Borg> in normal economy. it will wipe industries much more quickly.. and this is right with my obserwations
21:26:54 <andythenorth> but does smooth economy visit monthly, or random walk?
21:27:09 <andythenorth> peter1138: does nml need railtypes prop 10 bit 2 added?
21:27:17 <Borg> booth visit it probably a bit randomly.. walking constantly
21:27:24 <Borg> because it happens randomly in month
21:27:28 <Borg> never on first day of month
21:27:42 <peter1138> andythenorth, it's added in nmlc already.
21:27:49 <peter1138> So just the spec needs updating I guess.
21:28:14 <andythenorth> 'fortunately it's a wiki' :D
21:28:29 <peter1138> RoadTypeIsTram(rt) ? RTT_TRAM : RTT_ROAD != rtt
21:28:33 <peter1138> Does the wrong thing :p
21:28:42 <peter1138> Stupid operator order...
21:29:00 <Borg> andythenorth: yeah. it seems.. you said smooth economy wipe your industries :)
21:29:07 <Borg> but seems its normal economy
21:29:15 <Borg> its all right.. why you want to touch it?
21:30:11 <peter1138> GetRoadTramType(rt) != rtt < I guess that'll be easier.
21:31:59 <V453000> well having some kind of influence from newgrf industries sounds like an elementary thing to have :) dangerous too, maybe you could only make the time longer? :D idk
21:32:59 <andythenorth> then they all close after 10 years, or 15 years or whatever
21:33:21 <Borg> andythenorth: can GS close industry?
21:33:25 <andythenorth> I reckon there's a reliable seed for randomising it somewhere, but I didn't discover one
21:33:36 <andythenorth> Borg: please, I don't want to have this discussion again
21:33:49 <Borg> andythenorth: grr. just fucking asked :) I dont want to have discusion..
21:34:12 <andythenorth> it can't close newgrf industry, if newgrf prevents closure
21:34:34 <Borg> personaly.. I would not touch that stuff..
21:35:06 <Borg> but I guess ppl wish to have more control over it maybe... dunno
21:35:26 <Borg> I most of time run my servers with GS w/ spawns industries.. but only for first 20-25 years
21:35:27 <andythenorth> GS has no methods for closing industry
21:35:38 <Borg> after that.. only prospecting/founding
21:36:05 <Borg> andythenorth: okey.. I was just curious.. why interest about it at all.. so if GS cant control it.. now its understandable
21:36:28 <andythenorth> the last two times this got discussed, it has caused rage quits :)
21:36:43 <Borg> ppl are fragile these days
21:37:59 <andythenorth> V453000: just ban closure, job done
21:40:27 <Borg> wops ;) someone chopped of my arm!
21:55:14 <andythenorth> ha ha, I had an outdated version of NRT nml
21:55:23 <andythenorth> this makes me happy
21:55:38 <peter1138> Well I didn't link you to the updated version for no reason...
21:56:56 <andythenorth> life admin intervened
22:02:02 <andythenorth> peter1138: this is awesome!
22:02:14 <andythenorth> I've made a supply-delivery truck that can go on ROAD and HAUL
22:02:17 <andythenorth> and it just works
22:02:26 <andythenorth> first time, not even andythenorth code mistakes :P
22:06:45 <andythenorth> no but it all makes sense now :D
22:07:00 <andythenorth> the whole railtype compatibilty thing used to confuse the hell out of me
22:07:19 <andythenorth> now I can just make stuff that is fun and useful, thanks :)
22:08:52 <andythenorth> eh we could do mixed gauge trains now
22:09:46 <frosch123> V453000: i think it needs a game setting "economy speed" or something
22:10:29 <frosch123> god defined the opening/closing rate for 256x256
22:10:36 <frosch123> ottd just scales it up by map size
22:10:51 <frosch123> but on bigger maps people do not care about that many opening/closing
22:11:12 <frosch123> also, smooth economy is crap, and should be burnt :p
22:11:26 <andythenorth> frosch123: do you have a newsletter about that?
22:11:32 <andythenorth> what's actually wrong with it? :)
22:11:36 <frosch123> stuff getting burnt?
22:11:49 <andythenorth> well I could subscribe to 'burn stuff'
22:11:56 <andythenorth> or 'smooth economy is crap
22:12:07 <frosch123> andythenorth: normal economy changes stuff every now and then by random
22:12:22 <frosch123> smooth economy changes stuff all the time with small random deviations
22:12:40 <frosch123> but, when you sum many small random things, you end up with "no random"
22:12:54 <andythenorth> well FWIW, I'm considering an option in FIRS, so primaries also respond to economy changes as well as as supplies
22:13:03 <andythenorth> but I can't be bothered because smooth economy is crap :P
22:13:23 <frosch123> smooth economy is that: it does no random changes, it does noisy changes which sum up to nothing relevant
22:14:57 <andythenorth> up a bit, down a bit
22:15:08 <andythenorth> it's all marginal
22:15:37 <andythenorth> it strikes me as an artefact of pre-newgrf days
22:15:40 <frosch123> imo interesting mechanics have threshold points
22:15:56 <frosch123> you deliver 200 supplies, and you get 2k output
22:15:57 <andythenorth> well there's two things here
22:16:02 <frosch123> yuo deliver 199 supplies and you get 1k output
22:16:11 <andythenorth> one is deleting smooth economy in the frosch PP
22:16:16 <frosch123> now you work to always gurantee 200
22:16:28 <andythenorth> the other is, what should FIRS do, optionally on a parameter
22:16:58 <frosch123> there is no frosch pp. i took the eddi road, talking bs all day and not reviewing prs
22:17:04 <peter1138> SetRoadOwner(t, false, owner_road); -> SetRoadOwner(t, RTT_ROAD, owner_road);
22:17:09 <Artea> I remember an old option in TTD that cargo just stack into stations without train
22:17:09 <peter1138> That's... kinda clearer, right?
22:17:18 <peter1138> Artea, "select_goods"
22:17:27 <andythenorth> I would be lost without eddi tbh, I get a lot of help from his talk
22:17:28 <peter1138> Artea, it wasn't an option in TTD, it was always on.
22:17:49 <peter1138> RTT == RoadTramType.
22:18:12 <peter1138> Artea, yes, set "select_goods" to false.
22:18:27 <peter1138> Why would I make it up?
22:19:02 <Artea> is hard to know which commands would work or not in dedicated server
22:19:03 <frosch123> select_goods = false, improved_load = false, gradual_loading = false
22:19:11 <frosch123> for the most oldskool loading
22:20:02 <Artea> I will check that... regardless now I can't just shutdown the server
22:20:06 <frosch123> don't thank, before you tried them :p
22:20:19 <peter1138> Is build on slopes still an option?
22:20:41 <frosch123> yes, but i think build_on_coast is gone
22:21:16 <frosch123> autoslope <- i still do not know why ttdp called it like that
22:21:28 <frosch123> but i copied it into ottd :/
22:21:35 * andythenorth still doesn't have a label for feldbahn
22:21:57 <Artea> what consist the label ?
22:22:42 <frosch123> andythenorth: earlier we said that the label is arbitrary, you can just pick "FELD". the important thing is to then add equivalent labels from the standard schema for vehicle compatibility
22:22:54 <frosch123> i.e. vehicles should never use the real labels
22:23:02 <andythenorth> and the standard schema does not exist yet
22:23:07 <andythenorth> so no work to do :D
22:23:16 <frosch123> well, then you have no vehicles
22:23:32 <frosch123> the second part of the rule is, that no vehicles are "FELD"
22:23:49 <andythenorth> I had it backwards
22:23:59 <andythenorth> so who gets what label?
22:24:21 <frosch123> the track uses a private label that noone knows, it just needs to unique, but does not matter
22:25:00 <frosch123> the vehicles use standardizes labels, and the tracktype references a list of starndardizes labels
22:25:05 <frosch123> to define which vehicles can run on it
22:25:36 * andythenorth copies this to a safe place
22:25:48 <frosch123> that way you can have mutliple visually different track types that allow the same vehicles
22:27:34 <peter1138> Does not even need to be a text label ;)
22:27:39 <andythenorth> ok so I do need a standardised label for the vehicles
22:27:47 <peter1138> You could reverse a specific range of labels.
22:27:53 <andythenorth> so a label is still needed for feldbahn :P
22:28:00 <peter1138> And then throw a hissy fit when somebody accidentally uses one.
22:28:09 <frosch123> you would just use "light rail"
22:28:39 <frosch123> peter1138: ah, "reserve" :) "reverse" confused me
22:28:40 <Eddi|zuHause> <frosch123> the vehicles use standardizes labels, and the tracktype references a list of starndardizes labels <-- isn't that exactly what i said?
22:29:03 <peter1138> I have a patch that displays labels of things when NewGRF developer mode is on.
22:29:15 <Eddi|zuHause> (i still have no spare brain power to follow the discussion)
22:29:18 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: yes, but with less words
22:29:19 <peter1138> So "Rail Construction" becomes "[RAIL] Rail Construction"
22:29:25 <peter1138> Not sure how useful it is :p
22:29:32 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: is something wrong?
22:29:49 <frosch123> he is not allowed to go dancing today
22:29:56 <andythenorth> peter1138: it's as useful as the other newgrf debug stuff, when it's needed it's needed
22:30:04 * peter1138 grumbles at AIs crashing on load.
22:30:12 <Eddi|zuHause> no, just preparation stuff
22:31:05 <andythenorth> maybe FELD for Feldbahn
22:31:12 <andythenorth> and then FELD for electric Feldbahn
22:31:16 <andythenorth> it's got 'el' in it
22:31:34 <nielsm> who says it has to be uppercase?
22:31:54 <andythenorth> I already did CAKE for supply trucks that can drive on HAUL and ROAD
22:31:57 <frosch123> lowercase is reserved for cool people, maybe
22:32:08 <andythenorth> I think I'll do HAKE and FAKE for feldbahn
22:32:11 <andythenorth> it's only a branch :P
22:32:19 <nielsm> like, maybe you could even put non-letters in it
22:32:25 <andythenorth> all of FIRS started out as CATS
22:32:44 <frosch123> luckily i have no memory of that
22:33:40 <andythenorth> do you have fear of cats? o_O
22:34:13 <frosch123> cats remind me about alf
22:34:45 <frosch123> the "real clear cat juice" commercial in mad-tv
22:34:55 <peter1138> What's the GRF ID of FIRS?
22:35:34 <peter1138> So make feldbahn \F1 $ \00 \01
22:35:44 <frosch123> the % is some "RS" in hex
22:37:39 <peter1138> Alright, in the conversion from "bool tram" to "RoadTramType rtt", I fixed some missed conversions too, so that's useful.
22:40:28 * andythenorth adds HAKE, FAKE, BAKE and LAKE
22:40:33 <andythenorth> labels are just tokens :P
22:40:48 <andythenorth> don't be silly Samu :)
22:41:04 <andythenorth> already got CAKE
22:41:14 <andythenorth> WAKE, TAKE, RAKE
22:41:18 <andythenorth> it's an easy game :)
22:44:41 <andythenorth> so how do I see available trams now?
22:45:06 <andythenorth> 'road vehicles' on global toolbar -> 'available vehicles' only shows RVs
22:45:21 <andythenorth> trams display if I open an appropriate depot
22:45:35 <andythenorth> maybe I've confused it
22:45:39 <andythenorth> I try a fresh game
22:45:44 <andythenorth> there has been much reloading of newgrfs
22:46:21 <peter1138> No, I think you're right :p
22:46:36 <peter1138> Well, that's a bug.
22:46:48 <andythenorth> it's not at all confusing when 'road vehicles' doesn't mean 'road vehicles'
22:46:57 <andythenorth> we are where we are, it is what it is etc
22:47:22 <peter1138> Trundhead Tram Vehicle Depot?
22:47:30 <andythenorth> light rail vehicles?
22:47:32 <peter1138> Yes, that's the main reason I haven't.
22:47:42 <andythenorth> well we could later
22:48:04 <andythenorth> tram is not hard to draw, there's one in the emoji spec :P
22:48:11 <andythenorth> I could just use that right?
22:51:06 <peter1138> Nice, it's broken it for trains too :D
22:51:17 <pnda> When I am on a new branch, do I just do git rebase to get all new commits?
22:51:59 <andythenorth> if I try to use a label that is in *neither* roadtypetable or tramtypetable, nml validates that and fails to compile
22:52:14 <andythenorth> but if it's in either roadtypetable or tramtypetable it will compile
22:52:20 <andythenorth> even if it's the wrong table :D
22:52:55 <peter1138> Well, that's not me :D
22:53:16 <peter1138> Presumably it doesn't check for the tram misc flag?
22:54:29 <andythenorth> I think it's simply failing when it can't find any matching token, and otherwise it just runs
22:54:33 <andythenorth> nmlc ERROR: "generated/road-hog.nml", line 48453: Unknown identifier 'HAKE'
22:54:48 <andythenorth> it's probably validating zilch
22:55:02 <andythenorth> but meanwhile, Feldbahn!
22:55:22 <peter1138> Problem is it's possible to set the road type by label before you've set the flag.
22:56:14 <andythenorth> ha ha, I wrote my own guards, and now I disagree with them
22:56:16 <andythenorth> "Consist hake_lake_dump has capacity > 160, which is too much"
22:56:59 <peter1138> Ok, filter works now.
22:57:47 <peter1138> Why have I eaten so much today? I didn't even ride my bike.
22:58:01 <peter1138> (4.5 miles with the missus doesn't count)
22:59:11 <peter1138> Let's hope this is right.
22:59:17 <peter1138> Regression test passed...
23:00:15 <peter1138> Hah, no, I'm missing some GTTS changes.
23:08:48 <pnda> How can I check for when a key is pressed?
23:11:16 <andythenorth> peter1138: confirmed, filter works
23:11:23 * andythenorth goes to bed before anything breaks :D
23:11:40 <peter1138> This is the new RoadTramType version ;p
23:16:08 <andythenorth> It drives across the types!
23:18:08 <peter1138> And what types are visible there?
23:18:16 <peter1138> Original it looks like, and...
23:18:50 <andythenorth> you can't have Megabus and a mining truck on the same tile
23:18:58 <andythenorth> but some vehicles are valid for both
23:19:34 <andythenorth> I could now also do mixed gauge rail types
23:19:40 <andythenorth> but it's a bit of a silly party trick
23:22:02 <peter1138> Ok, so... for splitting road and tram depot-wise, it may be simpler to split VEH_ROAD into VEH_ROAD and VEH_TRAM :p
23:22:09 <peter1138> i.e. a lot of changes.
23:22:20 <peter1138> (But less special-casing)
23:22:52 <andythenorth> better in the long run?
23:23:10 <peter1138> It splits the features even further, so, uh... Hmm.
23:24:15 <andythenorth> in for a penny, in for a pound
23:25:25 <peter1138> What's this 48 bit labels now?
23:25:36 <peter1138> Do we start using guids next?
23:27:29 <peter1138> Sprites Complete: Nope
23:27:49 <peter1138> Oh, I have trams available. I should build some.
23:28:18 <supermop_work> peter1138: playing nrt?
23:28:39 <peter1138> If by "playing" you mean "developing"
23:29:51 <peter1138> Buy and Refit is nice.
23:30:21 *** Thedarkb-T60 has joined #openttd
23:30:41 <peter1138> Oh cute, this tram stopped at a level crossing for the train to go by.
23:32:51 <andythenorth> if it was a double-track
23:32:55 <andythenorth> it might have gone boom
23:36:58 <peter1138> So where's the Steam Punk vehicle set?
23:37:16 <peter1138> With steam-powered airships in the early 1800s...
23:45:39 <supermop_work> andy off the rails
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