IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2018-11-18
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05:26:25 <hegge18> ／！\ AТTN։ Τһis сһaᥒnel һaѕ ⅿoveⅾ to irc.freᥱnode.ᥒet #᜵jοiᥒ /!＼
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05:55:21 <palimm> I tһouɡht уou guys ⅿіght bе ⅰntᥱresteԁ in thіѕ bⅼഠg bу freenode ѕtɑff ⅿember Вryɑᥒ kⅼഠerі Ⲟstergaard һttpѕ:᜵/bryaᥒoѕtᥱrgaɑrd.ϲom／
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08:26:45 <andythenorth> oof what's the singular of 'news'? :P
08:51:43 <nielsm> (or one article of news)
08:52:44 <andythenorth> one article of news
08:53:06 <andythenorth> it's fine, just English is a silly language
08:53:10 <nielsm> uncountable nouns are troublesome
08:53:17 <andythenorth> the template for a screenshot is 'screenshot.html'
08:53:25 <andythenorth> the template for a news item is 'news.html'
08:53:28 <andythenorth> which is correct
08:54:09 <andythenorth> hmm, who used <h5> tags?
08:54:19 <andythenorth> I have never found a reason for a <h5> in 20 years of html
08:54:31 <nielsm> that's a lot of nesting if it wasn't just used for formatting
08:55:48 <andythenorth> I suspect formatting
08:55:51 <andythenorth> there's no preceeding h4
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09:38:47 <znf> /!⧹ ΑTТN: Thiѕ cһaᥒnеl һas mοⅴᥱԁ to irc．frᥱеnοde․ᥒet #⧸јoⅰn /!\
09:55:21 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: ok news kinda done
09:55:34 <andythenorth> there is some pissing around to do with which news posts show were
09:55:37 <andythenorth> (front page vs archive)
09:56:13 <andythenorth> I haven't figured out the rules for that, but eh
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11:55:50 <TrueBrain> OFTC really is not what it used to be :(
11:59:01 <TrueBrain> I created an OpenTTD slack :P
11:59:53 <TrueBrain> nielsm: that is more frosch's domain
12:00:14 <TrueBrain> I did look at it, and .. I got a bit confused :D
12:00:31 <TrueBrain> it feels weird, but the fix I had in mind was a lot more work :P
12:01:17 <nielsm> another test might be if the new file is zero bytes
12:01:33 <TrueBrain> I would expect that it is a pre-filter or something
12:02:14 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #6960: Remove: Visual Studio project files for earlier than 2015 https://git.io/fpc4n
12:03:49 <TrueBrain> owh, you need invite links .. which are weirdly complex
12:04:33 <TrueBrain> I love those overdramatic statements :)
12:06:51 <TrueBrain> hmm, not sure why andy reimplemented a blog .. that is not really ideal .. now we miss a few useful functions :)
12:09:30 <TrueBrain> Slack no longer supports IRC gateways
12:10:47 <zuzak> that's where matrix.org comes in
12:14:06 <LordAro> though it's often unstable
12:15:01 <TrueBrain> and I still cannot copy/paste on this machine .. which is hilarious :D
12:15:27 <TrueBrain> when I disconnect VNC, Konversation's clipboard no longer works :P
12:15:39 <TrueBrain> amazing, how good technoligy works :P
12:18:00 <TrueBrain> you need a paid plan on Slack to allow guests .. wuth?
12:18:15 <nielsm> sounds like a bad choice then
12:18:28 <TrueBrain> well, this channel is not much different atm
12:18:34 <TrueBrain> you also need to register before you can enter
12:18:55 <TrueBrain> so "bad choice" is overstating atm :D
12:20:18 <TrueBrain> but I really really do not like this channel being +R
12:20:19 <planetmaker> maybe we should rather use discord
12:20:36 <TrueBrain> Discord is not really nice for development, we noticed in other projects
12:20:47 <planetmaker> but +R here... meh... spammers... also meh
12:21:04 <planetmaker> just curious: what's bad about discorse for dev?
12:21:19 <TrueBrain> tracking any conversation is difficult
12:21:37 <planetmaker> nothing beats ascii simplicity of irc ;)
12:21:58 <TrueBrain> honestly, we can't really put our finger on it. It seems it has mostly to do with UX
12:22:19 <planetmaker> discord seems like a gamer chat platform. And that it is
12:22:27 <TrueBrain> for games it is awesome
12:22:34 <planetmaker> not tailored towards ... discussion and finding stuff again
12:23:19 <TrueBrain> I wonder if Open Source is considered 'nonprofits' in terms of Slack :P
12:23:30 <TrueBrain> gives you a free upgrade up to 250 people
12:23:45 <planetmaker> should be, shouldn't it?
12:24:01 <TrueBrain> "valid charitable status"
12:24:29 <planetmaker> non-profit != charitable status. They should get their terms right :)
12:25:04 <TrueBrain> and this is why people are still on IRC :P
12:25:39 <planetmaker> Also... I can issue "valid charitable status" certificates when people start donating 50€/month to me. Wonder chich country's administration would acknowledge it, though ;)
12:26:13 <TrueBrain> funny to google for "slack open source" .. that is not what I wanted to ask :P
12:29:27 <TrueBrain> Slacking: like freenode, but on Slack
12:31:30 <TrueBrain> okay, there are ways to make it easier to get into Slack, but it always requires an email address .. guess that is the price you pay to avoid spammers
12:31:58 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: there are tons of other chat platforms; my issue is a bit, they are all not really known, so who knows how long they survive
12:31:59 <planetmaker> which means we're back to the +R equivalent
12:32:25 <TrueBrain> and I would really like to avoid running the infrastructure ourself :P
12:32:38 <planetmaker> yeah, I know. And totally understand
12:33:56 <TrueBrain> its a bit sad, that spam has overrun us in such ways, we have to filter at the door :(
12:35:33 <TrueBrain> honestly, we can work around it by giving everyone a member.openttd.org email address :P
12:36:24 <planetmaker> not exactly. +R is ok also here for the regular users. But +R is a PITA and hindrance for the occasional drop-by but valid user
12:36:44 <TrueBrain> so for something like Slack you could make a page where they just enter their username
12:36:50 <TrueBrain> we create an email address, confirm it, and let them in :P
12:38:20 <TrueBrain> gitter too, wants to link to your GitHub account
12:38:30 <TrueBrain> "free" is not so free anymore :)
12:39:36 <michi_cc> ChanServ is missing an autovoice after 10 seconds option.
12:40:13 <TrueBrain> ghehe; that would only fix the issue for a short window of time
12:40:56 <TrueBrain> either way, I do think we have to do something; being harder and harder to reach for the main part of your public is not helping a project :)
12:41:10 <TrueBrain> (and yes, I am sorry, but IRC is not that common anymore for the current generations :))
12:41:39 <TrueBrain> that is where Slack really helps; a lot of people know and understand that platform these days :)
12:43:13 <LordAro> is there an autovoice-when-registered thing on OFTC?
12:43:34 <LordAro> it wouldn't solve everything, but it wouldn't stop people actually joining
12:44:13 <TrueBrain> after which they cannot talk?
12:44:32 <TrueBrain> IRC for guests is already alienating, so not sure that helps :)
12:44:50 <LordAro> yeah, but it stops them from being shut out entirely
12:45:04 <TrueBrain> not being able to speak is similar to them; they wont understand, and leave
12:45:12 <TrueBrain> remember they most likely have a single question they really want to ask
12:46:01 <LordAro> alternatively you could just cope with the occasional broken spam messages :p
12:47:26 <TrueBrain> that is true, but that still leaves that IRC is not the common chat platform anymore
12:47:36 <TrueBrain> and it is really not that userfriendly for people with a question
12:53:46 <zuzak> talking of questions, does anything different happen if an industry is only slightly in a station's coverage area
12:54:01 <TrueBrain> it either is or isn't :)
13:00:49 <LordAro> there are some industries that only produce from certain tiles, aren't there?
13:08:21 <nielsm> nah all industry tiles are equally good for production
13:08:25 <nielsm> it's acceptance that's per tile
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13:11:04 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: mostly I didn't like the format of blog post filenames
13:11:15 <andythenorth> nor the output format, although that's changeable
13:12:34 <andythenorth> it's probably 5 mins work to use the built in Jekyll blog, but I suspect it's just implemented as a collection anyway, with reserved names
13:13:44 <nielsm> remember to try keeping old urls valid on a new site, have them return "moved permanently" status and redirect
13:14:16 <andythenorth> that's a Truebrain job :)
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13:18:55 <nielsm> "You may not be using HTML for that page in 20 years time, but you might want today's links to it to still be valid." <- turns out we still are, but it's a different html
13:33:46 <andythenorth> if we don't use .html on the output files, my browser can't open them from the filesystem for testing :P
13:33:59 <andythenorth> because mime type is missing
13:40:27 <LordAro> don't try to change that
13:40:34 <LordAro> that's up to whatever webserver gets used
13:44:03 <andythenorth> so do I have to talk to TrueBrain on slack now? :P
13:52:37 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: still, you are reinventing the wheel now. And for people wanting to make modifications to the website, staying close to what Jekyll describes helps a lot
13:53:01 <TrueBrain> but mostly, I really like what they did with the filenaming, the sitemap, the RSS feed, and the individual posts you can view
13:53:08 <TrueBrain> not sure it is best to reinvent that again :)
13:54:17 <TrueBrain> (news/223.md is not really verbose :P)
13:54:18 <andythenorth> you'll do all the URL remapping?
13:54:24 <TrueBrain> that is a problem for future-me
13:54:28 <TrueBrain> dont worry about it :)
13:54:37 <andythenorth> and you'll generate all the timestamps and title slugs in the posts?
13:55:00 <TrueBrain> automation is easy :P
13:55:16 <andythenorth> so are we all moving to slack?
13:55:28 <andythenorth> I might move work stuff to slack on Monday, we want to run authed bots
13:55:39 <andythenorth> and irc isn't ideal for that
13:56:11 <frosch123> you move stuff on a monday?
13:56:21 <andythenorth> but not a friday
13:57:29 <andythenorth> I just fundamentally dislike slack :(
13:57:36 <andythenorth> but it might be a necessary evil
13:58:45 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I think we need to do something; not sure if Slack is it, but it is the more popular atm
13:59:04 <TrueBrain> joining the rest of the crowd sometimes is a good thing (like moving to github)
13:59:21 <TrueBrain> I am, however, a bit annoyed they closed their IRC gateway; that makes it just a bit more difficult
13:59:26 <LordAro> having been through 2 "moves" to slack from irc, it only ever really serves to split the community
13:59:26 <andythenorth> so when I buy gmail for business, it's google, doing email
13:59:35 <andythenorth> when I buy plan.io, I'm buying redmine, hosted
13:59:41 <andythenorth> when I buy bitbucket, it's git, hosted
13:59:47 <andythenorth> but slack is proprietary :P
14:00:00 <TrueBrain> LordAro: last time OpenTTD moved chat-channels, we moved. As in, we locked down what we left behind. People were moved within a day ;)
14:00:05 * andythenorth is the MD of a proprietary software company :P
14:00:14 <TrueBrain> Medical Director? :P
14:03:36 <TrueBrain> I find the world of chat-software a bit weird .. we go from this fully free platform (IRC, XMPP, what-ever), to all these small proprietary solutions
14:03:40 <TrueBrain> world inside-out :P
14:04:09 <andythenorth> because open platforms are open to all people :(
14:04:22 <andythenorth> and "all people" is not who you want when you want to get stuff done
14:04:41 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: current news articles have a publish time, can we drop that?
14:04:47 <andythenorth> is it even TZ aware? :P
14:05:21 <TrueBrain> the "time" of the "date/time" is irrelevant, I guess :)
14:05:27 <andythenorth> because posts take the date from the filename
14:05:38 <andythenorth> I don't want two sources of truth by also adding a var for it
14:05:44 <andythenorth> that will just go wrong
14:05:48 <TrueBrain> yeah, so drop it :)
14:06:14 <TrueBrain> time is only useful for the first 7 days or so
14:06:17 <TrueBrain> after that, nobody gives a ...
14:10:43 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: pushed
14:10:54 <andythenorth> I could refactor some var names though
14:11:00 <andythenorth> Jekyll is *really* good software
14:12:12 <nielsm> there were lots of attempts to make an open "irc killer" over time, afaik, but nothing really caught on since irc already had lots of clients and lots of users
14:12:58 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: nice :D
14:12:58 <nielsm> and then some closed products rush in and catch the facebook generation with sleeker UI and integrated features
14:13:14 <andythenorth> I only joined irc under protest
14:13:22 <andythenorth> because Jabber, AIM weren't good enough
14:13:24 <andythenorth> nor the Apple thing
14:13:53 <nielsm> I think I still have my irc log archive back to 2002 or 2003
14:15:41 <andythenorth> I've reintroduced the news item title bug
14:21:01 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: I've pushed, there's a bug I can't fix right now and I have visitors arriving :P
14:21:26 <andythenorth> posts no longer have a predictable path, so I can't prevent their titles from gaining a link
14:33:47 <frosch123> what, we can no longer fake the times?
14:34:03 <planetmaker> touch $FILENAME ;)
14:34:09 <frosch123> that will result in a lot of 2nd april releases :p
14:35:01 <TrueBrain> frosch123: the time is in the filename .. I am sure you can come up with a way to fake that :P
14:35:06 <TrueBrain> remember, we were talking about TIMES, not DATES :)
14:37:00 <frosch123> can please you add something to the test cases?
14:47:09 <planetmaker> frosch123, is there a quick tour how the github webhooks work / how they are installed somewhere you know of?
14:47:43 <planetmaker> ah, thought you installed them
14:50:31 <planetmaker> commithooks... on the server side?
14:53:33 <zuzak> do farm yields go down if you murder all their fields
14:53:58 <planetmaker> nope. Farm fields are just eye candy
14:57:41 <frosch123> planetmaker: the hooks would also work on a server, but gh does not offer that. instead we run them on the compile farm for PRs
14:58:08 <frosch123> it's the "commit-checker" target
14:58:25 <frosch123> it checks all commits in the PR
15:02:17 <nielsm> hmm turns out the actual problem isn't deleting files
15:02:40 <nielsm> it's that some of the files deleted were missing newlines at the end all the time
15:03:07 <TrueBrain> so it was detecting a missing newline in a removed file :D Interesting .... ;)
15:03:31 <TrueBrain> first make a commit to add the newlines, then remove the file? :P
15:03:38 <nielsm> settingsgen_vs100.vcxproj version_vs100.vcxproj
15:03:48 <nielsm> yeah I'm doing it the dumb way around :P
15:03:50 <TrueBrain> git blame, and slap those people! :P
15:08:00 * nielsm slaps glx around with a cow
15:09:26 <TrueBrain> so expected it to be me tbh :D
15:09:45 <frosch123> i expected truelight
15:10:04 <nielsm> glx is the only with history on the settingsgen project at least
15:12:21 <TrueBrain> I have no problems blaiming him :P
15:15:33 <LordAro> nielsm: sounds like you should finish #5 :p
15:22:11 <nielsm> $ git commit -m "Update: Add missing newline at end of some project files"
15:22:11 <nielsm> *** b/projects/generate_vs140.vcxproj: No newline at end of file
15:22:53 <TrueBrain> guess it is time for a password change? :P
15:22:55 <nielsm> I'm making a new commit on top of master here, not amending anything
15:30:56 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #6960: Remove: Visual Studio project files for earlier than 2015 https://git.io/fxANX
15:30:57 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh dismissed a review for pull request #6960: Remove: Visual Studio project files for earlier than 2015 https://git.io/fxAAn
15:32:10 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #6960: Remove: Visual Studio project files for earlier than 2015 https://git.io/fpczm
15:36:05 <nielsm> I'm not sure how you'd best detect that a missing-newline-at-end is being fixed and not introduced
15:37:58 <frosch123> previous line containing "-"?
15:38:08 <frosch123> but yeah, it's weird
15:41:20 <nielsm> ^\+.*$^\\ No newline at end of file
15:42:49 <frosch123> nielsm: no, the loop already splits the liens
15:43:37 <frosch123> so, you need some state var betwen loop iterations
15:43:41 <nielsm> so, keep track of whether previous line was add, remove, context, or hunk-position?
15:43:45 <andythenorth> I'm sure I'm doing jekyll wrong
15:43:57 <andythenorth> figuring out urls shouldn't be this hard
15:46:47 <andythenorth> maybe the idea of testing locally is just silly
15:47:11 <TrueBrain> there is: jekyll serve
15:47:15 <TrueBrain> which makes a small http server out of it
15:47:26 <andythenorth> I used it to run a link checker
15:47:26 <frosch123> TrueBrain: btw. how does deploying private keys work?
15:47:47 <TrueBrain> frosch123: I am lacking a bit of context to answer that question :)
15:47:57 <frosch123> some of the dockers require cookie private keys and database password
15:48:19 <andythenorth> so what's left to do on website?
15:48:27 <andythenorth> I'd like to finish it ASAP, so we can all move on :)
15:48:32 <frosch123> so, if i publish the docker file or stack.yml, how do other people use them?
15:48:34 <andythenorth> I have newgrf, tank games etc to do
15:48:38 <TrueBrain> frosch123: the most common way I see, is by using env (-e)
15:48:59 <TrueBrain> no clue what that is :)
15:50:40 <TrueBrain> but normally passwords and private keys are read by what-ever is in the Docker from the env
15:50:48 <TrueBrain> and the controller spinning up the dockers is telling what those values are
15:50:58 <TrueBrain> never worked with docker stack :P
15:51:04 <frosch123> so, i take it the controller is secret
15:51:11 <TrueBrain> didnt even know it existed
15:51:26 <TrueBrain> (with controller here I mean the human)
15:51:53 <TrueBrain> ah, docker stack is something like docker swarm
15:52:02 <TrueBrain> you also see a lot of docker-compose for the small stuff btw
15:52:53 <TrueBrain> anyway, not really sure what best-practice is for this
15:53:15 <TrueBrain> sure google has a lot of opinions about it :) I only used this with kubernetes, and there you have "secrets", which work really well
15:53:32 <TrueBrain> there too the idea is that the pod reads the information from the env
15:54:24 <TrueBrain> I think the idea behind it all is a bit, that like your stack.yml, the only one who can reach the database (assuming normal firewalling), is the other container
15:54:30 <TrueBrain> so as long as they know the "pre-shared" key
15:55:40 <frosch123> anyway, as fyi, i built a working mediawiki docker
15:55:55 <frosch123> the official mediawiki thingie on dockerhub is completely broken
15:56:00 <frosch123> so i used debian as base
15:56:42 <TrueBrain> I hope next weekend or the one after to have some basic infrastructure running on k8s .. then we can launch that in the staging too
15:56:58 <frosch123> i am not here next weekend
15:57:34 <andythenorth> how is the front page screenshot supposed to work?
15:57:39 <andythenorth> automated or manual?
15:57:48 <TrueBrain> the latest in the set!
15:58:31 <andythenorth> so probably just an array slice
16:22:28 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: so there's some rule for which posts go on front page, and which on archive?
16:22:35 <andythenorth> and then we need multiple archive pages?
16:22:50 <TrueBrain> (believe they support that out-of-the-box, not?)
16:23:04 <andythenorth> dunno there are lots of nice filters for things
16:24:00 <andythenorth> neeed more posts to test with
16:24:12 <andythenorth> here's my idea: TrueBrain imports all posts, then I set the filters up :P
16:28:44 <andythenorth> ok website all finished
16:29:12 <TrueBrain> well, I hope to have it running on staging next weekend or the one after that
16:29:24 <TrueBrain> tnx a lot andythenorth :)
16:29:26 <TrueBrain> pretty quick work :)
16:29:44 <andythenorth> you didn't see all the bugs yet :P
17:18:49 <TrueBrain> nielsm: hate to be a burden, but possibly it is easier if you make a PR to fix the newlines; that is trivial to force, even if the CI fails
17:19:03 <TrueBrain> now I come to think of it
17:19:07 <TrueBrain> MSVC is not connected to the CI anyway
17:19:17 <TrueBrain> if glx approves this, we can force it through, no problems :)
17:19:55 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #6960: Remove: Visual Studio project files for earlier than 2015 https://git.io/fpcVR
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17:26:43 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
17:30:31 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh merged pull request #6970: Revert: Sprite sorting optimisation sorted incorrectly. https://git.io/fpGQn
17:33:49 <triolus> anyone know why openttd is not in debian testing anymore?
17:35:18 <nielsm> yeah my guess too, one of the dependencies removed a feature we depend on
17:37:45 <Heiki> so it’ll probably be back in testing in a few days, and of course you can install 1.8.0-2 from unstable right now
17:40:47 <triolus> I'm prety sure I have the generic binaries somewhere. thanks for the info!
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19:09:13 <andythenorth> this would be easy to draw
19:09:19 <andythenorth> it's just a cuboid
19:11:50 <andythenorth> but much easier in pixels :P
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19:41:25 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 approved pull request #6960: Remove: Visual Studio project files for earlier than 2015 https://git.io/fpc6O
19:51:54 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #6960: Remove: Visual Studio project files for earlier than 2015 https://git.io/fxANX
19:53:05 <TrueBrain> there you go nielsm :) And tnx for finally removing that stuff :) Now lets migrate to vcpkg! :D
19:56:23 <glx> should be easy now as ICU is gone
20:25:34 <zuzak> is there a shortcut to remove signals in the signals menu? ctrl is taken
21:47:02 <nielsm> 3 bits set off for the loading type flags, but only 4 choices defined
21:48:03 <nielsm> (for some reason with values 0, 2, 3, 4... and the unload type flags are 0, 1, 2, 4 as if it were a bitfield even though they are logically exclusive))
21:48:59 *** Wolf01 is now known as Guest3360
21:53:22 <Wolf01> Aww, you left out Eddi again?
23:24:57 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
continue to next day ⏵
