IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2018-11-17
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00:06:17 <dwfreed> Samu: some IRC clients can send your NickServ password for you on connection, or you can use SSL client certificates for authentication
00:10:56 <LordAro> dwfreed: gonna have to convince him not to use the webclient first
00:58:16 <Xaroth> I use a webclient that supports it :P
01:06:11 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] matthijskooijman commented on issue #6922: Replace ICU ParagraphLayout with something else? https://git.io/fpn2M
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05:23:42 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] khaledhosny commented on issue #6922: Replace ICU ParagraphLayout with something else? https://git.io/fpnik
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10:12:11 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] matthijskooijman commented on issue #6922: Replace ICU ParagraphLayout with something else? https://git.io/fpnyF
10:16:52 <ulope> ／!\ ATᎢΝ： Ꭲhⅰs сһannеⅼ hɑѕ ⅿo⋁ᥱd tο irϲ.freenode．nеt ＃/ϳοin /!\
10:21:38 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] matthijskooijman commented on issue #6922: Replace ICU ParagraphLayout with something else? https://git.io/fpnSG
10:26:37 <andythenorth> where is TrueBrain ?
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10:45:29 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #6922: Replace ICU ParagraphLayout with something else? https://git.io/fpn9k
11:26:50 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: somewhere in the world, I would estimate
11:28:51 <TrueBrain> how ever, it is an estimation; I can be off a few feet up in the sky
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11:29:48 <uwap> ∕!⧵ ATTN﹕ Thiѕ chаnnеl hɑѕ ⅿoved to іrϲ．freᥱᥒode․net #／јоⅰᥒ /ǃ\
11:31:48 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: such website changes pushed
11:32:02 <andythenorth> I am going out in a bit, but I will try and do screenshots later today
11:32:18 <andythenorth> is there staging url yet? o_O
11:32:26 <TrueBrain> there is; it is just not being auto-updated :P
11:32:54 <andythenorth> I am expecting broken links and stuff
11:33:16 <TrueBrain> possibly a good test for screenshots is to do contact.html first, to make that come from a list of some kind
11:34:30 <andythenorth> although currently
11:34:39 <andythenorth> I am looking at web pages and wondering how many we can just delete :P
11:34:43 <andythenorth> in favour of github
11:35:13 <TrueBrain> first port, lets talk about details later :D
11:35:39 <TrueBrain> contributors != devs, ofc
11:36:28 <andythenorth> also too many global nav links :P
11:36:37 * andythenorth thinking out loud here
11:37:28 <andythenorth> 10 main navigation links in header
11:37:38 <andythenorth> which unpredictably go offsite or not
11:37:38 <TrueBrain> well, again: port first
11:38:03 <andythenorth> I have to write down the distractions to stop them being distracting :P
11:38:19 <andythenorth> ok later screenshots, blog, profit
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14:07:25 <nielsm> I developed two sheets of film
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14:17:31 <andythenorth> how about scriptable orders?
14:22:44 <andythenorth> then we could delete some buttons
14:51:13 <andythenorth> I hate everything
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15:10:04 <andythenorth> got a plaster on my middle fingertip
15:10:19 <andythenorth> makes typing and using trackpad massively rage inducing
16:03:36 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh approved pull request #6970: Revert: Sprite sorting optimisation sorted incorrectly. https://git.io/fpnA4
16:05:13 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh merged pull request #6971: Fix #6969: Account for BOM when reading script files https://git.io/fpGbM
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18:12:57 <andythenorth> it's technically possible, but faff
18:15:11 <nielsm> arguably really old screenshots that don't represent current versions should be relegated to a "history" page or similar
18:15:28 <nielsm> while I'd expect "screenshots" to provide a display of recent versions
18:25:29 <andythenorth> currently the screenshots are nested in dirs by version/topic
18:25:33 <andythenorth> I dislike nested dirs on the web
18:25:39 <andythenorth> it makes traversing fiddly
18:26:13 <andythenorth> want to flatten them
18:27:49 <andythenorth> maybe I can't be bothered :P
18:34:28 <frosch123> LordAro: new replacement for smallvector?
18:39:05 <nielsm> I think I did consider using std::basic_string in some of my midi code, but it seemed too weird and I suspect someone would have flagged it at review too :)
18:39:22 <nielsm> (I haven't made non-character string before)
19:07:57 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] matthijskooijman commented on issue #6922: Replace ICU ParagraphLayout with something else? https://git.io/fpce2
19:19:54 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] khaledhosny commented on issue #6922: Replace ICU ParagraphLayout with something else? https://git.io/fpceD
19:20:04 <nielsm> okay there is a slightly edge issue there: how do you know whether a (potentially) user-entered string is LTR or RTL primary reading direction? as in town names, signs, company names, chat?
19:20:23 <nielsm> especially if a save is loaded by someone else, or in a multiplayer game
19:20:51 <nielsm> you'd kind of need to store some extra data with every user-created string which input language was used (if known)
19:21:41 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: in the contact page, the email addresses are url encoded
19:21:49 <andythenorth> is that an attempt to stop screen-scraping of them?
19:27:06 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #6922: Replace ICU ParagraphLayout with something else? https://git.io/fpcvv
19:27:16 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #6922: Replace ICU ParagraphLayout with something else? https://git.io/fpcvU
19:49:02 <frosch123> nielsm: the layouting libraries (like icu) know which texts are LTR or RTL. there is something like a natural reading order for every unicode character, which is used in the absence of other rtl/ltr control codes
19:50:02 <frosch123> so, if you have a shaping engine, it has that information, you don't need to add a new information
19:50:17 <frosch123> if you have no shaping engine, ottd only renders "?", so no need for rtl/ltr
19:51:01 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] khaledhosny commented on issue #6922: Replace ICU ParagraphLayout with something else? https://git.io/fpcvb
19:51:02 <nielsm> each character has a directionality property, but to properly perform the bidi algorithm you need to know what the natural directionality of the language context is
19:51:24 <nielsm> that's actually explicitly written in the bidi algorithm technical note from unicode consortium
19:51:30 <nielsm> (as far as I remember)
19:52:03 <nielsm> to layout correctly, you need to know whether you have an english text with some arabic words in it, or an arabic text with some english words in it
19:57:03 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #6922: Replace ICU ParagraphLayout with something else? https://git.io/fpcvj
19:57:04 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] matthijskooijman commented on issue #6922: Replace ICU ParagraphLayout with something else? https://git.io/fpcfe
19:58:35 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] matthijskooijman commented on issue #6922: Replace ICU ParagraphLayout with something else? https://git.io/fpcfJ
20:05:32 <andythenorth> too much logic in page templates
20:05:41 <andythenorth> Jekyll needs a backing view in code
20:05:49 <andythenorth> maybe it can actually do that with plugins :P
20:05:57 <frosch123> nielsm: that part is defined in the lang files
20:06:21 <frosch123> ##textdir rtl <- arabic_egypt.txt
20:08:28 <andythenorth> I need help on splitting and sorting the array for the contacts page
20:09:27 <nielsm> an arabic player sends me a savegame, in which he has renamed a station from "Farnbridge <central>" (with <central> being a string translated) to something else, with arabic text, will that guaranteedly render the same on my end as on his? and if not, should something be done?
20:10:46 <LordAro> i feel there's an easy way to find out
20:12:42 <frosch123> LordAro: the "curly functions" video is worse than the string video
20:13:40 <andythenorth> I can't find a way to drop items from an array in Liquid
20:13:43 <andythenorth> which surprises me
20:16:30 <andythenorth> meh, I have to use really clunky crap
20:24:12 <LordAro> is there a way to not get it in the array in the first place? :p
20:24:35 <LordAro> nielsm: you should add yourself to the readme/info window, btw
20:25:13 <andythenorth> LordAro: not really
20:25:19 <andythenorth> well there is, but it's crude
20:25:43 <andythenorth> I can JFDI to make it work, but I don't learn much Liquid that way
20:26:44 <nielsm> LordAro, only if you review some more of my open PR's :P
20:42:45 <nielsm> may also need to move andythenorth up from the "special thanks" section there soon :)
20:42:55 <andythenorth> Jekyll / Liquid is quite cool, but I prefer having a backing view
20:43:06 <andythenorth> it's limiting doing everything in the template
20:43:20 <andythenorth> it makes sense because it comes from Shopify, where you probably can't write logic in views
20:44:04 <LordAro> nielsm: might want to review existing names as well
20:44:42 <andythenorth> LordAro: can you pull and check I didn't break the contacts?
20:44:49 <andythenorth> compare live site with compiled page?
20:45:15 <andythenorth> oh I changed 'Function' to 'Role'
20:45:22 <andythenorth> Function reads weird to me
20:45:46 <nielsm> LordAro, I do notice several names on that list I haven't seen speaking here at all, yes
20:45:58 <LordAro> andythenorth: i'll have to install jekyll anew
20:46:16 <LordAro> nielsm: probably confer with frosch123
20:47:45 <andythenorth> 'fallen soldiers' :P
20:50:38 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: yup; the encoding means you cannot really google for emails etc
20:50:43 <TrueBrain> most common regex fail horribly
20:51:02 <andythenorth> does that actually help?
20:51:05 <TrueBrain> (mainly as it mixes dec with hex)
20:51:11 <andythenorth> if it's spam crawlers, don't they just parse it?
20:51:14 <TrueBrain> I think it does; but that is hard to measure ofc
20:51:26 <TrueBrain> many don't. It is pretty expensive to parse these things
20:51:28 <andythenorth> well we'll need a Jekyll plugin to do it then :P
20:51:34 <andythenorth> or maybe there's a built in encode
20:51:36 <TrueBrain> but it is mainly to keep out the simple google searches
20:52:26 <TrueBrain> just put them in plaintext for now; we will figure out a way before going live :)
20:52:38 <andythenorth> so contacts are done
20:52:41 <andythenorth> blogs I will do next
20:52:45 <andythenorth> I am avoiding screenshots
20:53:42 <andythenorth> for bonus points, the contacts sort order can be controlled
20:53:48 <andythenorth> but nobody but me will remember why or how
20:54:39 <TrueBrain> possibly we also want to sort the low-prio contacts on alfabet?
20:54:53 <andythenorth> that can be done yes
20:55:03 <andythenorth> it's alpha on nick currently
20:55:04 <TrueBrain> sorted on nickname is most useful I guess
20:55:08 <andythenorth> same as current site
20:55:11 <andythenorth> trivial to change
20:55:15 <TrueBrain> but that is by the order in the file, right?
20:55:43 <TrueBrain> I am surprised you can fix the order stuff like that :) Pretty nice btw :)
20:55:51 <andythenorth> Liquid is pretty competent
20:55:59 <andythenorth> I'd _rather_ do it in python in a backing view
20:56:12 <TrueBrain> we wont have a backend, so that aint going to happen :P
20:56:25 <andythenorth> the main framework I use has spent years teaching people to take this kind of logic out of templates :P
20:56:35 <andythenorth> don't mangle data in the template, just do loops and conditionals
20:56:49 <TrueBrain> its just sorting :)
20:56:55 <TrueBrain> sorting should often be in the template btw ..
20:57:10 <TrueBrain> backends shouldn't worry about how things are represented on screens
20:57:26 <TrueBrain> but not having Javascript is a big plus atm :D
20:57:47 <glx> sometimes user is even allowed to resort on display
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20:59:06 <Eddi|zuHause> clientside javascript is what the page needs, definitely
20:59:07 <andythenorth> does someone want to reformat all the screenshots with awk or something?
20:59:26 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: we can script that, no problem
20:59:40 <TrueBrain> if you make it look good for, say, 2 screenshots in 2 versions, I can do the rest :)
20:59:43 <andythenorth> there are a bunch of 'nfo' files with a caption in
20:59:59 <andythenorth> and everything is nested by topic
21:00:14 <andythenorth> nfo needs converted to .md with liquid vars
21:00:22 <andythenorth> and we can just put the topic in as a liquid var
21:00:41 <andythenorth> words words words
21:06:09 <nielsm> I feel so accomplished
21:06:30 <TrueBrain> its not nothing, and well deserved :)
21:06:51 <nielsm> (ottd is the third oss project with my name in the listed credits, I think)
21:07:04 <TrueBrain> I noticed it really helps if you are looking for a (new) job
21:07:13 <nielsm> (I really ought to start working on aegisub again, it's deader than ever)
21:19:08 <frosch123> i should remove my name from nforenum
21:20:24 <TrueBrain> you dont want to be assosiated with it anymore? :P
21:20:40 <andythenorth> Jekyll is so similar to Zope in lots of ways
21:20:42 <andythenorth> it's very familar
21:21:14 <frosch123> TrueBrain: 10 years ago, some job interviewer asked me why ottd is so little c+
21:21:47 <TrueBrain> so you walked away, then and there? :P
21:21:53 <frosch123> what should i answer when they ask why nforenum has the code formatting it has?
21:22:29 <frosch123> hmm, also... my name is no longer unique
21:22:45 <frosch123> some grown-up guy is now also found
21:23:31 <frosch123> s/grown-up/young adult/ ?
21:24:41 <andythenorth> alt tags on screenshots
21:24:48 <andythenorth> 'thumbnail of screenshot' (accurate but useless)
21:24:55 <andythenorth> or the caption? (semantic, but might be waffle)
21:26:00 <nielsm> I suppose an alt text describing the elements shown in the shot helps image search engines
21:29:41 <andythenorth> can we convert nml compilation to use Jekyll? o_O
21:50:41 <andythenorth> hmm I broke Jekyll :(
21:51:10 <Xaroth> I think you just answered your own question, andythenorth
21:51:26 <andythenorth> I broke Jekyll by following instructions :P
21:51:38 <andythenorth> jekyll-nml was trolling :P
21:59:18 <andythenorth> how much do we care if I'm doing Jekyll wrong?
21:59:31 <andythenorth> there's some stuff around treatment of urls that I don't understand
21:59:46 <andythenorth> and I cba to understand
21:59:47 <glx> as long as it doesn't become Hide
22:00:26 <andythenorth> can always find-replace it later
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22:27:12 <andythenorth> TrueBrain LordAro screenshots done, can you see what I broke?
22:32:34 * LordAro works out how to install jekyll again
22:36:39 <andythenorth> somewhat macos specific :P
22:45:58 <TrueBrain> docker run -v `pwd`:/source jekyll:builder jekyll build
22:46:06 <TrueBrain> forgot which directory they build the tools on
22:46:21 <andythenorth> afaik, it's just the blog left, and bugs
22:46:35 <andythenorth> I found a solution to base url thing, which needs applied more places :P
22:47:17 <LordAro> nav bar still a bit broken
22:48:22 <LordAro> wait, live site is also doing that
22:49:41 <LordAro> pages are missing titles
22:51:34 <andythenorth> oof that missing background is exciting
22:51:40 <andythenorth> I don't see that
22:52:20 <LordAro> the background doesn't appear at all in the dev tools
22:53:04 <LordAro> wtf is my network doing
22:54:20 <andythenorth> quite a lot of broken links in pages
22:54:25 <andythenorth> need a 404 validator :P
22:55:38 <LordAro> that's the nav bar background above
22:56:00 <LordAro> why's it stopped overlapping?
22:56:26 <andythenorth> works for me, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's broken
22:57:27 <LordAro> interesting... if i remove the float:left from #navigation-bar it goes back to where it should... except for Donate which is on the next "line"
22:58:48 <LordAro> be odd to be broken for both FF(63) & Chrome though
22:59:30 * andythenorth finds a link checker and runs it
23:02:43 <glx> LordAro: try IE and edge ;)
23:03:04 <LordAro> glx: with difficulty :p
23:04:08 <andythenorth> dunno where it should go
23:04:19 <andythenorth> that wiki page isn't about web services that we need ££ for
23:14:22 <frosch123> LordAro: c++20 just gained "Signed Integers are now defined to be represented using Two's Complement". didn't we talk about that somewhen :p
23:14:59 <LordAro> yes, i believe we did
23:15:38 <LordAro> andythenorth: the whole page using images to do blurring & colours makes me sad
23:16:07 <andythenorth> I already replaced some of it
23:16:17 <andythenorth> css is in static assets
23:16:26 <LordAro> i have a terrible feeling that i already did half of this the last time replacing django came up
23:16:34 <LordAro> but i think i deleted that a few weeks ago
23:16:41 <andythenorth> if you find any images are unused, can you delete them :)
23:16:58 <andythenorth> oof the icons bother me :P
23:17:03 <andythenorth> they are very pixelated
23:17:32 <andythenorth> new website needed :P
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