IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2018-10-12
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00:03:32 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #6938: Incorrect value for "Cost to Clear" for Company Headquarters in tile inspector https://git.io/fx8BE
00:10:03 <Eddi|zuHause> what's the git equivalent to "svn diff -cXXX"?
00:11:47 <Eddi|zuHause> right, i remembered immediately when i sent that
00:13:56 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] MiguelHorta opened pull request #6939: Fix #6938: Don't change company value to perform cost estimations https://git.io/fx8RG
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14:07:31 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] orudge approved pull request #6939: Fix #6938: Don't change company value to perform cost estimations https://git.io/fx43y
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16:35:14 <frosch123> "I dont like how you made the game look like its from the 90s, especially the way the music sounds. Btw can you add new buildings to the game perhaps Better Skyscrapers and more modern buildings." <- lol
16:36:04 <nielsm> is that someone on tt-forums?
16:36:14 <frosch123> no, e-mail to info@
16:37:08 <nielsm> not much to say other than, yes it is in fact based on a 25 year old game
16:40:49 <Samu> frosch123: can you talk to me?
16:41:36 <Eddi|zuHause> reply: "do you even NewGRF?"
16:41:52 <Arveen> so ... are you going to ? :D
16:42:55 <Eddi|zuHause> "Dear Sir or Ma'am, opposing to all the other '90s-lookalike-games nowadays, this game actually IS from the '90s"
16:46:09 <peter1138> s/opposing/compared/
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17:41:26 <Fahrradkette> greetings everybody
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17:44:11 <Fahrradkette> I'm playing a FIRS game and like to balance engi/farm supplies among stations. (multiple supplier, multiple consumer) would that be possible using timetables?
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19:01:12 <nielsm> Fahrradkette theoretically it would be, yes
19:02:49 <Fahrradkette> nielsm: does that imply it's not practical? :)
19:03:05 <nielsm> easiest way to timetable it would likely be having a single, shared route that visits all destinations, in an A-B-A-C-A-D-A-E etc. manner, and have a fleet of vehicles running that route
19:04:02 <nielsm> in practice timetables in OTTD tend to break when confronted with varying presence of cargo to load, and other traffic ;)
19:04:47 <nielsm> and keeping a fleet running to a shared timetable synced with approximately equal distance between them often falls apart
19:04:59 <Fahrradkette> so the "auto" button doesn't mean "spread all the trains on that route (i.e. the set of trains having an order shared)?
19:05:01 <nielsm> in particular, make sure you play with breakdowns disabled
19:05:31 <nielsm> the "auto" button just measures the time it takes to complete the route, and sets that as the timetable
19:06:07 <nielsm> then you have to ctrl-click the "set start time" button to distribute the timetable start time for all vehicles sharing the orders
19:07:01 <Fahrradkette> does it matter where the vehicles are at the time i ctrl+click [set start time]?
19:07:27 <nielsm> honestly, I think the timetable UI is bad, confusing, and does nothing to make it easy to operate
19:07:52 <nielsm> not really, no, they'll just hang out on their next stop until it's their timetables departure
19:07:56 <Fahrradkette> does OTTD have some lua/python3 scripting?
19:08:30 <nielsm> there are AI and GameScript, which use Squirrel language
19:08:50 <nielsm> but those are for programming AI opponents and scenarios
19:09:17 <Fahrradkette> so not to be leveraged to extending the usability?
19:09:57 <Fahrradkette> I.e. dynamic eval
19:10:15 <Fahrradkette> and possibly UI primitives exposed
19:14:36 <Fahrradkette> so the most straight forward way to have a "spread vehicles in route"-feature is to write it in c++ and build it myself?
19:15:28 <nielsm> it just has annoying UI
19:16:15 <nielsm> and well, it can't make vehicles skip orders for the initial vehicle distribution
19:17:44 <Fahrradkette> but after some ingame years it eventually works reliably (even with network congestion and breakdowns)?
19:18:47 <nielsm> if you build enough slack into the timetable to allow for breakdowns and servicing, it might be able to work somewhat reliably
19:19:47 <nielsm> but honestly, it can be difficult to get a pair of buses running between two stops to not bunch of
19:22:10 <Fahrradkette> my concern is about the FIRS engi/farm supplies, they should arrive within 3 months of each others
19:22:49 <frosch123> my strategy is to have smaller vehicles arrive more often
19:23:07 <frosch123> so, no big load every 3 months, but smaller loads every 10 days or so
19:23:14 <nielsm> yeah my best success has been just having a fleet of small road vehicles running constantly
19:23:34 <frosch123> it's easier to distribute cargo evenly then, no vehicle takes all/has to wait for full load etc
19:24:09 <nielsm> another alternative is to attemp making the pickup trains also carry a single car of supplies back, but it's not entirely reliable
19:24:12 <Fahrradkette> so no full load order?
19:24:32 <frosch123> no, the priority is even and continuous supply
19:24:41 <frosch123> efficiency does not matter
19:25:23 <nielsm> you also shouldn't use full load orders together with timetables
19:25:48 <nielsm> better to timetable enough time for a vehicle to get "sufficient" load in average supply conditions
19:25:58 <frosch123> you can make good use of time tables if you only set loading times, no travel times
19:26:29 <Fahrradkette> ca I set a "wait for 1st of month" condition in time tables?
19:26:35 <frosch123> "load for 3 days" is an intermediate option between "load " and "full load"
19:27:12 <nielsm> afaik a vehicle will always load as much cargo as available, even if it means it has to stay longer than timetabled at a stop
19:27:25 <Fahrradkette> or like wait for next "month % 4 == 0" ?
19:27:48 <nielsm> but you can "load for 10 days" to pick up as much cargo as is supplied during 10 days, if the supply is uneven and too little is waiting at the station
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19:28:41 <nielsm> no, timetables only allow for "stay at station for X days" and "spend X days on travel and if you arrive earlier, wait at station to make up for it"
19:28:56 <nielsm> you can't make date-based rules
19:30:24 <Fahrradkette> what if the vehicle is delayed? will it just skim off of the next time waiting?
19:30:53 <nielsm> it always stays at least the timetabled number of days at a station, afaik
19:31:23 <nielsm> well, it never leaves a station without being either full or there being no more cargo waiting
19:31:29 <frosch123> if a vehicle is late, it tries to leave as early as possible
19:31:47 <frosch123> it won't abort unloading/loading waiting cargo though
19:31:54 <andythenorth> oof timetables :P
19:31:55 <Fahrradkette> so if I planned the whole trip it could end up date-based? (providing enough leeway at the loading station)
19:32:11 <frosch123> you can make your timetable take 30 days
19:32:21 <nielsm> yes if you set up a timetable that runs exactly 60 days you have effectively a two-month basis
19:32:43 <frosch123> or if you switch to ticks, you can also make it about 30.4375 days
19:32:44 <andythenorth> things andythenorth never understood in OpenTTD: timetables, conditional orders
19:33:08 <Fahrradkette> oh there are conditional orders?
19:33:10 <frosch123> to approximate month lengths and leap days
19:33:11 <nielsm> conditional orders I've never used, timetables is something I use sparingly :P
19:33:48 <Fahrradkette> how elaborate is it? (Can I calculate the mandelbrot set)?
19:34:09 <frosch123> no, it's for vehicle sorting
19:34:25 <frosch123> if you run different vehicles with shared orders or so
19:34:40 <frosch123> some people use it for servicing
19:35:08 <Fahrradkette> so it's for signals?
19:35:16 <Fahrradkette> i.e. bypass express lanes
19:35:18 <frosch123> Fahrradkette: it's "conditional orders", not "turing orders"
19:35:43 * Fahrradkette was hoping for a functional language
19:35:52 <frosch123> i think noone really knows what conditional orders are for :p
19:37:48 <frosch123> i think most use-cases are about detours to depots
19:38:10 <andythenorth> nielsm: I use timetables, in lieu of 'load until at least x% full' :)
19:38:18 <LordAro> you can construct logic gates out of signals, i don't know about orders :p
19:38:20 <andythenorth> which is the one conditional order that would actually be useful, instead of all the BS ones
19:38:39 <andythenorth> conditional orders solve a problem no-one has
19:39:38 <andythenorth> I use timetables for 'wait for x days'
19:39:45 <nielsm> or "load X units of cargo and absolutely no more"
19:39:57 <nielsm> as well as a corresponding "unload X units" order
19:42:24 <andythenorth> 'unload exactly', 'unload at least'
19:42:42 <andythenorth> X units is problematic with (1) varying vehicle capacity (2) varying cargo unit suffixes
19:42:46 <nielsm> "unload at least", what if it doesn't have that much???
19:43:40 <nielsm> that's % of total capacity then, presumably
19:44:16 <andythenorth> and then is it specified per cargo?
19:44:25 <Fahrradkette> thanks for the tipps guys, conditional orders seem to be helpful in a FIRS game imho
19:44:40 <andythenorth> I think alberth looked at it, and decided it's a rework of orders that's needed, not a new order type
19:44:47 <andythenorth> but then that's almost impossible to do, so eh
19:44:49 <nielsm> per cargo would make a single order line use arbitrary amounts of storage
19:45:02 <nielsm> allowing multiple order lines for a single stop might be better
19:45:49 <andythenorth> it's one of the few features I'd like to see added tbh, outside of newgrf spec stuff
19:45:54 <andythenorth> mostly I'd prefer removing features :P
19:46:21 <nielsm> "stop at station X" "and unload 20% of supplies capacity" "and load 50% of coal capacity"
19:46:42 <andythenorth> so an order can have sub-orders?
19:46:53 * andythenorth wonders what cdist will do with it :)
19:47:02 <nielsm> also make refit orders sub-orders
19:47:04 <andythenorth> I guess cdist just sees a fraction of the cargo move
19:47:27 <nielsm> yeah, less capacity available?
19:48:21 <nielsm> if a train carrying up to 200 tons of coal is told to load 50% of capacity, it only has 100 units capacity from that stop
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19:51:12 <andythenorth> cdist doesn't measure actual capacity iirc, except in the case of two equivalent routes
19:51:23 <andythenorth> I wrote it down somewhere, fonso explained it to me
19:54:03 * LordAro doesn't understand cdist
19:54:37 <nielsm> it does something and then sometimes cargo stays on the train or decides to not ride
19:55:58 <frosch123> btw. recently i got confused that you cannot scroll the map with wasd
19:56:13 <frosch123> the two other games i play regulary do that
19:56:23 <LordAro> do those keys do anything else?
19:56:38 <frosch123> they map to random hotkeys dependin gon which window is open
19:56:47 <frosch123> i guess "d" is build depot or something
19:56:57 <LordAro> mm, probably not feasible to use wasd to scroll map then
19:58:54 <nielsm> potential feature: multiple keyboard maps included by default, and switchable
19:59:14 <nielsm> "traditional" and "modern", and then maybe space for downloadable ones?
19:59:29 <nielsm> (I forget, does customization already exist?)
20:00:53 <frosch123> nielsm: yes, i remapped D and other stuff
20:01:00 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro dismissed a review for pull request #6932: Change: Gradually slow down aircraft speed on breakdown https://git.io/fxsPV
20:01:05 <frosch123> destroy is rarely needed
20:01:22 <frosch123> usually ctrl-remove is good enough
20:06:41 <andythenorth> I use A and D a lot :D
20:31:34 <Wolf01> Fine, internet works... now I'm under attack...
20:34:40 <frosch123> by neapolitan hackers?
20:35:20 <Wolf01> Nah, it seem like a portscan from mozilla developers
20:37:33 <Heiki> they’re integrating OpenTTD into Firefox
20:38:37 <Wolf01> I have like 80 rss bookmarks
20:39:53 <Eddi|zuHause> <nielsm> not really, no, they'll just hang out on their next stop until it's their timetables departure <-- i think it's worse than that. they all ignore the timetable until they arrive at the first station in the list, then they clog that up for the later ones that intended to go first
20:43:08 <nielsm> the timetable distribution feature could be improved a lot in general
20:43:23 <andythenorth> there's a distribution feature?
20:43:26 <andythenorth> I never got it to work
20:43:36 <nielsm> it kinda works but it's so annoying
20:44:51 <LordAro> wasn't there a decent looking patch (queue) a few months back that rewrote it? was it ic111 or whatever their nick was?
20:45:20 <Eddi|zuHause> by "recent" you mean in development since 5 years ago?
20:48:36 <andythenorth> does it just remove timetables? o_O
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