IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2018-08-07
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08:08:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm definitely in the wrong time zone
08:26:41 <Hobby> <+SP9002_@efnet> so, he wants the win. so we're just gonna get lunch or something, then hes gonna push me to the ground and tap my ass with his foot so he can claim he "kicked my ass" tbh im going along with it becase I dont wanna lose any teeth
08:26:45 <Hobby> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
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08:45:16 <andythenorth> I've upgraded all deps and dev tools, afaict
08:45:34 <andythenorth> Apple LLVM version 9.1.0 (clang-902.0.39.2)
08:50:22 <andythenorth> I can open a ticket if it's not just EBKAC here
08:52:53 <peter1138> No, someone else had it but I thought it was something already resolved. Oops.
08:53:08 <peter1138> So, erm, yeah, I mean yes.
08:53:22 <peter1138> They also only mentioned it here.
08:54:24 <LordAro> wonder what actual version of clang that is
08:54:35 <LordAro> given clang 9 is not a thing
08:59:47 <LordAro> i'm not suggesting andy's error is a compiler bug :p
09:00:09 <LordAro> mm, expected expression..
09:00:29 <LordAro> i think that's the configure script not picking up clang correctly
09:02:01 <LordAro> but that was supposed to have been fixed...
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09:08:01 <andythenorth> I'll open a ticket later
10:09:33 <peter1138> So assuming it hits the clang section it shows up as version 91
10:10:00 <peter1138> So it'll get all the flags it previously got.
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11:01:22 <peter1138> All the [m] clients left due to "Quit: Client limit exceeded: 4096"
11:05:37 <Wolf01> I should try to reproduce the russian grf bug
11:14:39 <Wolf01> Ok, no bug, maybe I compiled in a wrong way my source
11:17:31 <Wolf01> And it could be, as it isn't loading any grf at all
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12:58:29 <k-man> when you are building passenger trains for towns and cities, how long do you make them?
12:58:38 <k-man> is there a best practice?
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13:00:07 <planetmaker> k-man, choose a station size. Use that everywhere. Make trains fit that station, and under no circumstances longer
13:01:22 <k-man> planetmaker, ok, i went for 5 for freight, but that seems too big for passenger
13:01:30 <k-man> i was thinking to do small trains for passenger trains
13:03:49 <peter1138> Passengers will explode, you'll regret that.
13:05:10 <k-man> you mean - long is good in the long term
13:05:30 <k-man> as in passenger numbers will explode, not passengers themselves? :)
13:05:33 <Wolf01> No, literally explode, blow up your stations
13:05:54 <peter1138> Cargo Type: Creepers
13:08:28 <SpComb> k-man: 5 tiles is reasonable... early trains with weaker engines and smaller towns will be shorter, but late-game you'll wish you had even longer stations
13:09:15 <SpComb> 2 tiles is way to short, you'll end up rebuilding all your stations pretty soon
13:09:26 <SpComb> even without passenger destinations... those increase passenger numbers as well
13:11:43 <k-man> ok, thanks for the tips guys
13:12:06 <peter1138> Really early trains you can get away with 2 tiles, but yeah, don't make the platforms that short.
13:12:27 <SpComb> if you want to save money then build two-tile stations with three extra straight track pieces
13:12:40 <SpComb> but not worth the bother tbh
13:12:59 <peter1138> And faff about with removing crossings.
13:13:00 <Wolf01> I go with 5 tiles for everything, in late game I upgrade industrial ones to 7-9 tiles
13:13:15 <Wolf01> Late game is about 15 minutes after start
13:13:35 <SpComb> "late-game" is probably once you're struggling with 5 tiles
13:13:45 <k-man> i already have an income so no need to save money just yet
13:13:46 <Wolf01> No, then I'll stop playing, it's late game for me
13:14:12 <SpComb> you just make the track loop around a little so you can fit in a 10-tile station ;)
13:14:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think we have bendy stations yet
13:15:14 <peter1138> I had a patch for it.
13:15:18 <Wolf01> I do, but I keep them for myself
13:16:00 <Eddi|zuHause> that was like 12 yaars ago?
13:16:15 <peter1138> Something like that, yeah.
13:16:25 <Wolf01> I have one which allow to build stations on slopes
13:16:42 <Eddi|zuHause> it's now older than i was when i started playing TTO
13:17:40 <andythenorth> newgrf support :P
13:18:03 <andythenorth> the partial-loading thing in JGR is interesting
13:19:20 <k-man> does a station service a whole town as long as its area of influence is on any part of the town?
13:19:23 <SpComb> just rotate the sprites in the game engine
13:19:42 <peter1138> No, they service their catchment area.
13:19:52 <SpComb> every house is separate
13:20:06 <SpComb> plus you'll want a couple bus stops in each town to trigger town growth
13:20:18 <SpComb> each town needs like 3-4 pax stations or something
13:21:13 <Eddi|zuHause> k-man: depends what you mean by "service"
13:22:36 <Eddi|zuHause> k-man: each station has an area where cargo comes from, and area where cargo gets delivered to (they are not quite the same if you have a non-rectangular station) and a town where it gets its name from
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13:24:14 <Eddi|zuHause> the area where cargo comes from decides how much cargo you get to transport, the area where cargo goes to decides what will be accepted, and the town name not only decides the station name, but also things like "does this town receive food/water"
13:24:52 <Wolf01> What decides which roadtype the town should build?
13:25:22 <k-man> so if i build a station right at the edge of a large city, will it service the whole population? or i need stations around the city/
13:25:29 <k-man> as in will it be able to pickup
13:25:40 <SpComb> you need stations around the city
13:34:20 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: you mean what the code currently does, or what it was meant to do, or what it should do?
13:35:11 <Wolf01> Currently is the roadtype used in the town center tile
13:35:36 <Wolf01> But Where to store a different one?
13:35:50 <Eddi|zuHause> it should filter the available roads by "compatible with ROAD" and a "the town should use that for growing" flag (which is separate from "houses can grow here", and of those pick the fastest
13:36:13 <Eddi|zuHause> towns should have plenty of off-map storage
13:36:16 <Wolf01> Not sure about the fastest, in towns :P
13:36:54 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: well, the really fast ones (highway etc.) would not get the town flag
13:37:59 <Eddi|zuHause> but if, say it had available dirt (15km/h), cobble (30km/h) and asphalt (50km/h), then it should choose asphalt
13:39:18 <Eddi|zuHause> it should also avoid "asphalt with catenary", again by the town flag
13:39:49 <Wolf01> Even that defeat the point of making you pay for upgrading a town road to the one which fits your needs (going faster)
13:40:13 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: the town would upgrade its roads very slowly
13:40:25 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: but it would use the best one for new roads
13:41:39 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: no town would still build dirt roads, because that was the type available 150 years ago
13:43:48 <k-man> do you make passenger trains go point to point or do a run along a whole bunch of stations?
13:44:17 <Eddi|zuHause> i usually make a bus or tram network in the city, collecting everyone at a central train station (with cargodist)
13:44:26 <Eddi|zuHause> then i have local and long distance trains from there
13:46:10 <k-man> i'm yet to explore that
13:46:52 <Eddi|zuHause> k-man: cargodist is like "whatever your train length was, it won't be enough"
13:48:04 <peter1138> I'm sure it needs some love but I don't know what.
13:55:18 <peter1138> Was there some error with production that makes it quadratic or something?
13:55:42 <andythenorth> cdist has the interesting side effect of rewarding simple point-point networks
13:57:29 <SpComb> wasn't there some actual town growth bug with a patch in the dev forums?
13:58:05 <SpComb> but the cdist-related pax patches were just hacks to reduce pax numbers iirc
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14:00:27 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, there was a quadratic production bug. it had nothing to do with cdist, though. it was more newgrf-related
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14:01:05 <Eddi|zuHause> as in, if a newgrf doubles the population of a house, its production quadruples
14:03:12 <andythenorth> oh someone maybe ticketed that
14:09:23 <andythenorth> can't find the ticket
14:09:48 <Eddi|zuHause> it was probably a forum thread
14:11:36 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i need food...
14:32:19 <Eddi|zuHause> your download speeds are better than internet explorer :p
14:32:33 <Wolf01> I started yesterday evening
14:34:09 <Eddi|zuHause> so, there was a surviving mars update announcement, but no update, and a stellaris update with no update announcement
14:35:07 <Wolf01> Yeah, also an Astroneer update with no announcement (but there was one in their forum)
14:35:27 <Eddi|zuHause> uhm, i have an astroneer announcement in my feed
14:35:37 <Wolf01> I should really play Astroneer, it's better than NMS right now, and still misses alien fauna
14:35:55 <Wolf01> There wasn't one yesterday
14:36:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i heard NMS got an update? and everyone was looking positively into the future?
14:36:32 <Eddi|zuHause> as in "this is the game how it should have been a year ago"
14:37:00 <Wolf01> I'm still waiting to get it for 15€
14:37:15 <Eddi|zuHause> it's probably still not a game for me
14:38:01 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm also really unsure about getting astroneer
14:38:39 <Wolf01> Until you get everything and stop doing everything
14:38:53 <Wolf01> But now there's more to explore, so...
14:39:11 <Eddi|zuHause> it would help if it wasn't windows only
14:39:51 <Eddi|zuHause> i configured the steam shop to only show me linux games now
14:42:00 <SpComb> I'm still halfway through my second factorio game
14:42:53 <SpComb> now at high tech with maybe 2 science packs (each) /s total, haven't even started with the first rocket yet
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16:07:02 <Wolf01> Rekt on 2 C:S games :(
16:07:43 <SpComb> don't build so much infra up front
16:07:48 <Eddi|zuHause> need to restrain yourself
16:08:13 <Eddi|zuHause> plop a few roads, a few houses, industries and commercials (preferably inbetween the other two)
16:08:35 <Eddi|zuHause> then wait before you plop down police or schools
16:08:53 <SpComb> mistake I made in my first game was to enact some ordnances that turned out to be surprisingly expensive, took me a long time to notice that they were draining like half of my budget
16:08:58 <SpComb> the game got easier after that :)
16:09:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm pretty sure i said that yesterday :p
16:09:25 <Wolf01> I need to understand how much things I need to start
16:10:00 <SpComb> study the infra layout of american suburbs, and then avoid building anything like that
16:30:44 <Wolf01> Ok, +1000$/w seem a good start, if only I will keep up with power, water, sewage, waste, noise, health, crime
16:31:40 <nielsm> or use the included infinite money mod and play it as a bosai garden
16:32:09 <Eddi|zuHause> infinite money never seemed like something that would interest me in this kind of game
16:32:19 <Wolf01> Oh, is there a sandbox mode?
16:32:27 <Eddi|zuHause> it's fairly easy to get money
16:32:59 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, there is in the mods section (builtin mod)
16:33:06 <nielsm> it's just the initial hump that's hard
16:33:40 <Wolf01> I'm always able to play well for 1-2 hours (when I understand how to start) and then things suddenly explode
16:34:19 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. but i don't see how infinite money is a solution to that :p
16:38:03 <SpComb> I wouldn't play with infinite money either
16:38:15 <SpComb> just like I wouldn't play with an absolutely empty flat map either
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17:33:07 <LordAro> expired cert, planetmaker ^ ?
17:36:22 <Happpy> The problem is all openttdcoop websit i think
17:37:41 <Happpy> Ok www.openttdcoop .org works so it all Wikipedia ones ar down
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20:18:30 <LordAro> andythenorth: giv issue
20:19:00 <andythenorth> I looked if it overlapped any existing issues
20:19:02 <andythenorth> couldn't see any
20:19:29 <LordAro> andythenorth: i'm most interested in the output of configure
20:20:41 <andythenorth> LordAro: do you want the full paste of ./configure?
20:20:51 <LordAro> probably just the last bit, where it says which flags it's using
20:22:12 <andythenorth> let me know if you need more
20:23:47 <LordAro> andythenorth: is the output of `clang -v` any different?
20:24:39 <LordAro> well certainly the version detection is broken
20:24:47 <LordAro> it thinks you're on clang 91
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20:27:14 <peter1138> That's the version number it gives, so yes.
20:29:29 <LordAro> but the core of the issue is that it's not setting -std=c++11
20:29:35 <LordAro> which is probably should
20:30:14 <LordAro> or maybe it isn't getting 91..
20:31:03 <LordAro> yeah, and the configure output implies that it's hit the -lt 30 branch
20:31:42 <LordAro> andythenorth: can you run `clang -v | head -n1 | sed s@[^0-9]@@g | cut -c 1-2` ?
20:32:02 <peter1138> I wonder if it's doing it do stderr instead of stdout?
20:32:17 <LordAro> that would be even more surprising
20:32:36 <Eddi|zuHause> is there a "verbose" mode where it outputs the commands it actually runs?
20:32:53 <LordAro> yes, but not for this command
20:34:13 <Eddi|zuHause> "head -n1" <-- maybe the version is not in the first line anymore?
20:34:40 <LordAro> it is according to the output andy posted :p
20:34:51 <LordAro> at least, i think so, given newlines appear to be missing
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20:46:36 <andythenorth> apple are definitely not competent enough to be doing some of the things they are doing
20:46:48 <andythenorth> things that come to mind include writing compilers, designing chips
20:46:50 <andythenorth> and making laptops
20:47:36 <andythenorth> this bot is handy
20:48:28 <LordAro> andythenorth: no output?
20:49:06 <andythenorth> LordAro: same as for clang -v
20:49:08 <LordAro> your pastes keep losing the newlines :p
20:49:33 <andythenorth> that's interesting of github
20:50:04 <LordAro> andythenorth: just for fun, what happens if you turn the first pipe into a "|&" ?
20:50:35 <andythenorth> hangon fixing newlines
20:50:45 <andythenorth> I assumed that putting them in code blocks would preserve formatting
20:50:48 <andythenorth> wrong assumption
20:51:30 <andythenorth> clang -v |& head -n1 | sed s@[^0-9]@@g | cut -c 1-2
20:51:34 <LordAro> ``` foo ``` blocks or ` foo` blocks?
20:51:46 <andythenorth> -bash: syntax error near unexpected token `&'
20:52:20 <andythenorth> GNU bash, version 3.2.57(1)-release (x86_64-apple-darwin17)
20:53:34 <LordAro> peter1138: i am even more surprised.
20:54:14 <LordAro> TrueBrain: how's that cmake build system coming? :p
20:54:29 <andythenorth> I suspected upgrading laptop would be painful :D
20:56:52 <michi_cc> LordAro: That's the side effect of silently going C++11, it makes things interesting. Especially if you try any of the compilers listed in the readme.
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20:58:27 <LordAro> wait, there's already a 2>&1 in config.lib
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21:18:14 <andythenorth> so shall I install GCC? o_O
21:19:21 <andythenorth> oh apparently I can't
21:22:12 <Eddi|zuHause> it's probably easier to hack configure to hardcode your compiler
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21:47:22 <TrueBrain> LordAro: have you checked me trello lately? :)
21:48:14 <TrueBrain> feel free to help with any point on there, so I sooner have time for "fun stuff" ;)
21:51:43 <LordAro> TrueBrain: i don't see it on there :p
21:52:35 <LordAro> did you put your progress anywhere public?
21:53:01 <TrueBrain> I removed all code-related entries from my trello, as it was depressing me
21:53:14 <TrueBrain> I never get to do the fun stuff :(
21:54:18 <LordAro> andythenorth: can you run `bash -x configure`? (probably best to put output into a gist or something rather than the issue itself)
21:55:18 <TrueBrain> there, I added it to me trello! :D
21:56:09 <TrueBrain> and the code is most likely in a branch on my github, if I would be to guess
21:58:35 <andythenorth> oof this is a lot of output
21:58:40 <andythenorth> can I pipe it to a file somehow?
21:58:50 <andythenorth> also it reveals paths on my system :|
22:04:52 <LordAro> `... > output.txt 2>&1`
22:05:02 <LordAro> TrueBrain: that'll do a bit more than anonymise it :p
22:05:17 <LordAro> andythenorth: is your system particularly different to any other mac system?
22:05:17 <TrueBrain> indeed, it still leaks the length of stuff
22:05:45 <LordAro> so what are you concerned about? :p
22:05:46 <TrueBrain> I wanted chocolate :(
22:06:00 <andythenorth> LordAro: reveals my login name amongst others
22:06:06 <andythenorth> that's 50% of creds
22:06:18 <andythenorth> I'll find & replace
22:06:35 <TrueBrain> I wouldnt want others to find out my usename is 'supergirl' too!
22:06:37 <LordAro> sed 's/andythenorth/notandythenothing/g'
22:06:53 <LordAro> i'm going to pretend "nothing" was intentional
22:10:07 <LordAro> it actually runs gcc -v | head -n1....
22:10:20 <LordAro> what's the first line of that?
22:17:56 <andythenorth> gcc -v | head -n1
22:17:56 <andythenorth> Configured with: --prefix=/Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/Developer/usr --with-gxx-include-dir=/Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/Developer/Platforms/MacOSX.platform/Developer/SDKs/MacOSX10.13.sdk/usr/include/c++/4.2.1
22:21:16 <LordAro> well that's where the 10 comes from
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