IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2018-07-29
⏴ go to previous day
00:15:29 *** chomwitt has joined #openttd
00:39:38 *** Supercheese has joined #openttd
01:16:43 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd
01:41:15 *** ccfreak2k has joined #openttd
02:20:36 *** virtualrandomnumber has quit IRC
05:09:45 *** Supercheese has joined #openttd
05:44:45 *** haudrauf has joined #openttd
06:44:04 *** Alberth has joined #openttd
06:44:04 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
07:34:46 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd
07:49:09 <rp4k> hello is there an easy way to apply a patch for ottd1.8.0 on windows? me and my friend would like this chatbox patch we found on the forums.
08:03:47 <Alberth> as soon as you patch, it is not 1.8.0 any more
08:04:26 <Alberth> which means you cannot play a multi-player game with other unpatched 1.8.0 versions
08:05:13 <Alberth> but patching involves getting the source code, getting a compiler, applying the patch to the source code, and compile everything
08:06:13 <Alberth> not terribly complicated, but setting it all up takes time and effort
08:07:58 <rp4k> and what makes it even worse is i run the server off my synology server/docker/contianer
08:08:21 <rp4k> network_chat_box_width_pct = 40
08:08:21 <rp4k> network_chat_box_height = 5
08:08:21 <rp4k> network_chat_timeout = 180
08:08:40 <rp4k> these things in settings worked just fine
08:08:47 <Alberth> likely the patch doesn't apply cleanly
08:09:02 <rp4k> we just wanted something easy for us to use to open chat window to see what we had said
08:09:10 <Alberth> which means you have to manually merge it into the source code
08:09:11 <rp4k> but pushing ~ also does this i guess
08:09:45 <Alberth> I typically keep a chat open in another window
08:10:12 <Alberth> ie another application
08:12:56 <Alberth> just a regular chat application, whatever you have
08:14:04 <Alberth> but I have 4 virtual desktops with windows of various applications
08:20:34 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
08:21:43 <Alberth> it looks like you will have to rewrite the entire window code of that patch
08:22:11 <Alberth> since the window system was rewritten between 2009 and 2011 or so
08:22:48 <andythenorth> seems I msised a lot
08:22:54 <andythenorth> so nml is now xml, right?
08:24:32 <Alberth> we pondered about xxml, but didn't decide yet
08:25:06 <andythenorth> I wondered about blockchain
08:27:14 <Alberth> I know the word, and its connection to crypto stuff, but how? no clue
08:27:42 <andythenorth> blockchain is a very important tool
08:28:11 <andythenorth> its main benefit is the ease with which it extracts money from investors
08:28:27 <andythenorth> if we want to modernise openttd, we should probably consider it
08:28:35 <Alberth> :o I thought bitcoin did that, or am I too late for that?
08:28:46 <andythenorth> oh you can just start your own coin offering
08:29:00 <andythenorth> then people send you BTC or paypal real $
08:29:05 <andythenorth> then you just abscond with it
08:54:50 <andythenorth> Alberth: does that use a new syntax, or the CPP syntax? o_O
08:55:10 <andythenorth> I did read the code first :)
08:55:19 <andythenorth> but not very well
08:55:22 <nielsm> some examples would be nice ;)
08:56:47 <Alberth> it uses new syntax, the readme explains it, although in a very technical manner
08:57:56 <planetmaker> it's somewhat new syntax. But close enough IMHO that 99% can be adopted quickly enough
09:00:13 <planetmaker> rp4k, I suggest to use a client connected to the admin interface to store the ingame chat for longer. Or to open the console of your OpenTTD client
09:00:57 <andythenorth> ok so macros with params
09:01:10 <andythenorth> wonder if I could drop chameleon? o_O
09:01:19 <Alberth> basically #include -> include; #define -> define ... endmacro and remove the \
09:01:38 <Alberth> yes, macros with params, like cpp :p
09:01:44 <andythenorth> now it just needs loops, string replacement, and the ability to call arbitrary python :D
09:01:54 <andythenorth> oh and conditionals
09:02:08 * andythenorth is probably not the target audience
09:02:34 <Alberth> I think that macro processor already exists, it's called 'python'
09:03:01 <planetmaker> andythenorth, string replacements is basically one application of 'define'
09:03:02 <Alberth> you may have heard of it :p
09:07:26 <andythenorth> dunno how anyone else writes nml :)
09:07:37 <andythenorth> they all seem to do it without loops
09:08:04 <andythenorth> loops are the most basic concept in programming, or at least the first one I learnt
09:08:26 <andythenorth> 10 print [swearwords]
09:08:35 <andythenorth> basically the first program
09:08:57 <Alberth> looping is applying a template 20 times, or 20 includes
09:09:34 <andythenorth> I am not trying to persuade you to add them :)
09:09:43 <Alberth> you make one more step, and have the various slight variations all bundled into one template
09:10:09 <Alberth> so you need to go left or right depending on the variation you generate
09:10:48 <andythenorth> with (vehicle_ids) { template(vehicle_id) }
09:11:05 * andythenorth back to pixels :P
09:11:22 <Alberth> pixel1(); pixel2(); pixel3(); ... :)
09:11:30 <andythenorth> loops with a single parameter are very bad long term
09:11:52 <andythenorth> and params scale horribly
09:11:57 <Alberth> there is a sweet spot somewhere in the middle
09:12:09 <andythenorth> much easier to have a data structure in scope, like....a python class :P
09:12:25 <Alberth> not using templates is bad, trying to squash all complexity into a single template doesn't work either
09:12:46 <andythenorth> the nice thing about using it 20 times
09:12:58 <andythenorth> is there's no separate step to define the vehicle/industry etc
09:13:23 <andythenorth> whereas I have split the configuration step (python files) from the templates (chameleon)
09:13:54 <andythenorth> arguably just calling template_name(parameters) is more direct
09:14:24 <andythenorth> I have a lot more glue in the middle
09:14:41 <andythenorth> Horse sprites: 55% complete
09:14:48 <Alberth> it's a matter of scaling, you can generate several economies all with the same templates
09:15:05 <Alberth> and easily edit/change them
09:15:26 <Alberth> that comes with the cost of clean separation of things
09:16:05 <Alberth> or do you re-use old horses too?
09:18:00 <andythenorth> all new pretty much
09:18:07 <andythenorth> everything at least tweaked, or totally redrawn
09:20:33 <andythenorth> Alberth: I forget, did we rewrite nml to use scopes? o_O
09:20:56 * LordAro decides not to go cycling today :(
09:21:11 <Alberth> not that I am aware of, andy
09:21:19 <andythenorth> I think we'd remember that
09:21:52 <Alberth> no good weather outside LordAro ?
09:23:56 <Alberth> :o it's beautifully sunny, but also with some clouds here, looks like a day for a nice walk
09:23:57 <Alberth> wouldn't you get wet on the inside otherwise?
09:24:39 <LordAro> but there's a point at which you're just having another shower
09:27:46 *** Progman has joined #openttd
10:31:49 <planetmaker> andythenorth, there's no scopes in NML so far. As far as I know / remember
10:36:22 <Alberth> it came up in a discussion once, we both consider it a good idea :)
10:43:08 <andythenorth> the main appeal for me was partial compiles
10:43:16 <andythenorth> there might be other ways to achieve that
10:43:21 <andythenorth> my solutions are often crude
10:43:40 <andythenorth> scopes is a rudimentary way of being able to link at the end
10:47:35 <Alberth> it's more to avoid so many unique variables
10:48:01 <Alberth> with the messy bla ## bla glue hacks in cpp
10:55:52 <andythenorth> and less boilerplate declaring IDs
10:56:04 <andythenorth> oh and less time in the compile resolving varaction 2 IDs
10:59:28 <Alberth> I'll make a new station nml :p
11:00:07 <andythenorth> nielsm: not resolving strings for non-default cargos?
11:00:11 * andythenorth pure guessing, no clue
11:00:22 <nielsm> yeah, I have no idea what I'm doing here
11:00:29 <Alberth> not enough lines was my guess
11:00:39 <andythenorth> nielsm: have you got a test grf?
11:00:40 <nielsm> it's also not using the right cargoes
11:01:49 <nielsm> oh, I know why that is now
11:03:09 <nielsm> broke the cargo translation table with a dumb mistake
11:07:13 <Alberth> do smart mistakes exist?
11:10:43 *** chomwitt has joined #openttd
12:03:38 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd
12:36:01 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd
13:04:24 *** chomwitt has joined #openttd
14:17:06 *** Alberth has joined #openttd
14:17:06 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
15:08:08 *** Kippers has joined #openttd
15:15:08 <andythenorth> not bad though eh
15:15:29 <andythenorth> tells me that I rarely want to use more than 4 :P
15:17:17 <andythenorth> it has one really nice benefit for FIRS though
15:17:21 <nielsm> actual problem seems to be that town houses that should accept more cargoes are not
15:17:38 <andythenorth> I can consolidate the ports to just 1 or 2 types, instead of 3 or 4
15:17:45 <andythenorth> it will make for much more playable maps
15:19:29 <Kippers> How do I generate a new string table? Trying to add the new russian ruble to the game, but I'm unsure how to declare the game options string
15:20:01 <nielsm> the makefile (or visual studio project) automatically does that if you modify english.txt
15:20:32 <Alberth> usually with strgen, not sure if that program is downloadable
15:20:32 <Kippers> Ok, I'll give it a shot
15:20:40 <nielsm> so step 1 modify english.txt to add new strings, recompile, step 2 use new string constants in code, recompile
15:20:48 <nielsm> and step 3 make translations
15:21:23 <Kippers> Ah, better cut out my code snippet then
15:22:12 <nielsm> well you might get a compile failure the first time
15:22:32 <nielsm> but it shouldn't really hurt to begin using the new strings before strgen'ing them for english base
15:22:53 <nielsm> (just compile once more when the new headers are generated too)
15:26:55 <Kippers> By the way, what is the text encoding for OTTD? I'd like to add the cyrillic characters for the ruble while I'm at it
15:27:57 <nielsm> don't expect cyrillinc to show correctly for players using bitmap fonts (the default for english)
15:30:00 <Kippers> So I shouldn't add a cyrillic postfix?
15:30:58 <nielsm> not for the base english no
15:31:22 <nielsm> unless you also add some supplement characters to the base grf files
15:32:29 <Kippers> Welp, "rub" postfix it is
15:34:35 <Kippers> Now that I've added the string constants in the english set, how do I add the translations?
15:35:19 <Kippers> Or do I have to manually add the string for every language?
15:35:38 <nielsm> it's okay to leave other translations without the new string
15:35:52 <nielsm> the eints web translator handles that correctly
15:36:45 <Kippers> So I just need to commit after having added the string to the english set, right?
15:37:53 <Kippers> I'll go mess with git then
15:50:11 <planetmaker> Kippers, translations are entirely handled by the translations system. No translations shall be changed via code commits
15:52:06 <planetmaker> Only add the new string in default english language file
15:58:42 <Kippers> Good, because that's what I did
15:59:07 <nielsm> (confusing, but not wrong)
15:59:25 <nielsm> (need to figure out what the little squares at the bottom are)
16:00:15 <Alberth> vertical connections aren't entirely centered between the industries, are they?
16:00:30 <Kippers> I also made a pull request with my mediocre git abilities
16:00:44 <Alberth> maybe they never were, I don't remember :p
16:27:39 *** Kippers has joined #openttd
16:28:56 <planetmaker> nielsm, increasing the cargo acceptance and production numbers per industry?
16:29:23 <nielsm> "almost working", so only the hard work left
16:29:41 <planetmaker> hehe. nasty 80:20 rule :)
16:30:04 <nielsm> someone needs to extend NMLC to support the new properties and callbacks
16:30:23 <planetmaker> for your new cargo capabilities?
16:30:25 <nielsm> and make something more advanced than I can figure out how to hack up in nfo
16:31:02 <planetmaker> andythenorth, will be your friend for (ab)using all the cargoes you throw at him ;)
16:31:18 <nielsm> I know, he's already drooling :P
16:43:42 <planetmaker> Kippers, can you explain to me: what's the difference between the rubel and the new rubel? There's a difference in the conversion to the game currency... but actually different to what I'd expect (things get more expensive instead of cheaper, while in reality 3 zeroes got cut off)
16:50:22 <andythenorth> is nml in openttd github yet? o_O
16:52:47 <andythenorth> it looked close though
16:57:57 <Kippers> planetmaker, I looked up the conversion factor for GBP to RUB, and used that in the exchange rate. I just assumed that was how it was supposed to work. Did I mess it up?
17:00:48 <planetmaker> no, that's how it works... though iirc usually the conversion at 1950 is used - which arguably is difficult - and is of limited value as exchange rates may vary wildly as time progresses
17:01:24 <planetmaker> I rather wonder whether it shouldn't work like the Euro: the RUR is transformed to the RUB at the given date
17:02:16 <Kippers> I didn't mess with converting old ruble to new ruble at a certain date, though I wondered if I should
17:02:29 <Kippers> Maybe that's the next thing I'll get my hands dirty with
17:02:58 <Kippers> Seems like a decent beginner issue
17:03:19 <planetmaker> was the RUR the currency used in the Soviet union, too? How did it go with the currencies of the other former Soviet states?
17:03:40 <Kippers> IIRC they used the SUR
17:04:05 <Kippers> Dunno about the rest of the eastern bloc
17:07:00 <planetmaker> they had their own currencies - if they were not part of the SU.
17:08:13 <Kippers> So Yugoslavia and the like
17:08:31 <Kippers> Though they were never really soviet to begin with
17:09:47 <planetmaker> wiki suggests that for Russia there was no new currency when the SU fell apart. Just differently-looking bills and coins, but no reform with different exchange rates or so
17:10:36 <Kippers> Maybe they used potato as currency
17:11:18 <Kippers> Anyway, should I update the old ruble conversion value to match a more modern value, or is it irrelevant?
17:11:19 <planetmaker> Using Rubel is older than the potatoe is known in Europe ;)
17:11:58 <Kippers> Before then, it was merely a slavic dream
17:11:59 <frosch123> Kippers: some newgrf try to assign the historical prices to vehicle
17:12:18 <frosch123> changing currency conversions has no effect other than upsetting those people :)
17:12:36 <Kippers> I'll not mess with it then
17:15:15 <Alberth> 0 * 4 165.000000 19.000000 0.000000 0.000000 haha, nice sprites :p
17:16:13 <frosch123> i think you overdid it with the floating spec
17:27:16 <nielsm> frosch123: so if following your idea, you'd add a flag on the industry that indicates "all tiles accepts all input cargo types", which is tested in the IndustryTileAccepts function, and if set all cargos from the industry are automatically added
17:27:37 <nielsm> then you can keep using prop 0A 0B 0C on industry tiles to add extra accpted cargos for some tiles
17:28:16 <nielsm> and maybe extend those properties so the acceptance amount is taken as a signed value (when the "all tiles accept everything" flag is set) so you can instead subtract acceptance from some tiles
17:28:26 <nielsm> and not add any more properties or callbacks on industry tiles at all?
17:29:34 <frosch123> i meant a flag for the tile, not for the industry
17:29:42 <frosch123> all other options are left open
17:31:31 <frosch123> one could also add an optional property like the new industry property 25 to list all accepted cargos of a cargo, which would still duplicate thoe from the industry...
17:32:24 <frosch123> anyway, my concern is mainly about the tile callbacks. they multiply the cpu resources by the number of tiles of an industry (so like 20x-40x) without adding any functionality)
17:32:46 <nielsm> I did add industry tile prop 13 which lists all accepted properties for the tile
17:33:00 <nielsm> in variable length format
17:33:17 <frosch123> yes, something like that
17:34:35 <frosch123> i hope you did not count the bytes manually :)
17:34:50 <nielsm> approximated and let grfcodec do that :)
17:35:08 <frosch123> usually peoply just write "-1 * -1"
17:35:09 <nielsm> I can't find anything about a syntax that lets it calculate lengths for me
17:35:36 <frosch123> nfo syntax is a bit of a mess :p those values are just ignored
17:35:42 <frosch123> just like the "do not modify" :p
17:49:57 <nielsm> a slightly improved nfo format with macros, but nothing as "understanding" as nml, could be useful
18:18:05 <peter1138> Nobody understands m4.
18:19:41 <Alberth> it's not that difficult, just lots of quotes :p
18:20:44 <frosch123> they thought lisp is hard to read because of all the ( ), so they used ` ´ instead
18:23:27 <Alberth> something like that :)
18:24:49 <Alberth> could use tcl, also has lots of quotes, since everything is a string
18:25:29 <frosch123> i think it has way more \ than quotes
18:26:02 <frosch123> they say, c beginners randomly add * and & until it compiles
18:26:18 <frosch123> when i use tcl, i usually have to incrementally add more \
18:26:44 <Alberth> oh, didn't use tcl for long, basically until I found Python 1.5.2 :p
18:28:58 <frosch123> what was the main change for python1 -> 2?
18:32:32 <frosch123> hmm... i thought unicode is one of the main features of python3 (strings vs bytes)... but it is also listed for python 2 vs 1 :p
18:32:59 <nielsm> python3 made unicode the default
18:33:11 <nielsm> python2 might have made it possible
18:39:55 <Alberth> from what I remember, the main change was a better class system
18:41:02 <Alberth> python3 has the string/bytes distinction enforced, you have to go through a codec from external to internal and vice versa
18:41:21 <frosch123> i expected you to say "list comprehension"
18:41:21 <Alberth> python2 had unicode, but it was all string
18:42:10 <Alberth> in that case, generators :)
18:43:01 <Alberth> where values are computed on the fly, at the moment they are needed
18:44:39 <Alberth> so no large intermediate lists that are passed around between functions, but a generator object
18:47:51 <Alberth> list comprehension wasn't new to me, I already encountered it in a functional programming language :)
18:48:46 <Alberth> I also already implemented list comprehensions in a language as graduation project :)
18:54:33 <Alberth> back then, sourceforge was useful :)
20:18:05 <nielsm> rather interesting they bottom align
20:18:59 <Alberth> you can analyze the max number of connections
20:19:53 <Alberth> what if you made the lines smaller?
20:20:11 <nielsm> that's the other option, just scaling them down
20:20:32 <nielsm> but you still want them large enough to hit with a mouse (or a fat finger groping the screen)
20:20:33 <Alberth> I made them this big as it looks good, and you can easily click them, but if you make the name clickable instead or so
20:21:01 <Alberth> or some rectangle somewhere
20:21:21 <Alberth> hmm, a row at the bottom?
20:21:59 <Alberth> you have at most 32 cargoes
20:27:12 <frosch123> i wonder when people will request more palette colors
20:29:04 <nielsm> there's at most 16 connected bars of cargo in each "connection column", and each edge of an industry has at most 16 connections
20:29:32 <nielsm> but there could be up to all 64 different cargoes represented on a single display of this, via the stubs
20:30:18 <nielsm> it needs to place the stubs in the empty slots on each industry, starting from the top
20:52:06 *** Supercheese has joined #openttd
21:06:19 <Alberth> click on the industry, and the row display the industry input/output?
21:07:38 <nielsm> "don't draw non-participating cargoes" is also a potential solution :P
21:08:50 <Alberth> you can click them to change cargo you display currently :p
21:10:22 <frosch123> is there some way to blame the grf? :p
21:13:04 <nielsm> don't think so, the cargo order gets shuffled around during the graph construction!
21:14:22 <andythenorth> I am not convinced we need the stubgs
21:14:46 <andythenorth> they're nice, but I didn't realise what they did until I read ^^^^
21:16:53 <Alberth> functionality hidden in plain sight :p
21:17:06 <Alberth> I agree it could use a hover text
21:26:31 <planetmaker> is it picture time? :D
21:27:14 <nielsm> is there ever a time on the internet where it's inappropriate to post pictures of animals?
22:32:01 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd
22:37:59 *** Kippers has joined #openttd
23:11:01 *** Supercheese has joined #openttd
23:26:17 *** andythenorth has left #openttd
continue to next day ⏵
