IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2018-07-23
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00:54:03 <TrueBrain> peter1338: exactly, so why the LL? INVALID is UINT32_MAX .. p1/p2 too .. 6 bits fits too .. bitshift 25 is fine .. I didnt see why it needs LL? (I am most likely missing something here :D)
00:54:34 <TrueBrain> typing your name right is hard too ... peter1138 .. lol
00:59:40 <Eddi|zuHause> who types names?
01:00:09 <TrueBrain> ah, RailTypes is a bitmask ... got it .. not your patch, but that name is fucked up .. RailType is a value, RailTypes a bit mask .. just to screw with you! Got it now :)
01:10:04 <peter1138> I'm trying to solve the rt << 4 | 7 issue.
01:11:08 <peter1138> It's to spread railtypes out, but the storage is a byte, so << 4 chops the 2 MSB of with 64 types.
01:11:51 <peter1138> rt << 2 | 7 is clearly wrong. rt << 2 | 3 is more reasonable, but messes up any existing newgrf ordering.
01:13:44 <peter1138> Also, the merge detection fails to understand savegame bumps :D
01:14:00 <peter1138> Not sure that's solvable.
01:15:09 <peter1138> Hmm, it is, but where we've put "198" and "199" in saveload.cpp by themselves it should have a description. That'll conflict.
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09:26:24 <TrueBrain> can anyone translate (pun intended) bug report #6862?
09:26:36 <TrueBrain> owh, written by peter1138, so maybe he can
09:26:41 <TrueBrain> I am scratching my head here what it says ...
09:29:59 <peter1138> There are basesets that use translations
09:30:13 <peter1138> They are inserted into the baseset during compilation
09:30:36 <peter1138> The compile basesets are also included in the git repo
09:31:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i think it means the .obg files have to be rebuilt on translator changes
09:31:22 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: tnx :D
09:31:32 <TrueBrain> why are the compiled baseset files in the git repo? Given they are ... compiled?
09:31:54 <peter1138> maybe removing them is a better solution
09:32:09 <TrueBrain> you would think that happens on building of the project
09:32:22 <peter1138> I can submit a PR to do that
09:33:27 <andythenorth> so....3 output cargos per industry then? o_O
09:33:27 <TrueBrain> I think it is first important to know why it was done this way :D
09:33:37 * andythenorth derails conversation :P
09:33:41 <Eddi|zuHause> the .grf files should probably stay, as they need grfcodec to build, but the .obg files?
09:38:20 <TrueBrain> peter1138: I think it is easiest if we move the request to the project that handles eints<->openttd connection; that should trigger frosch123 enough for him to either remove the precompiled stuff from git, or add it to the commit script :D
09:52:55 <planetmaker> TrueBrain, the compiled grf file(s) are in the repo as you should be able to build OpenTTD w/o grfcodec. In principle you could remove them and require grfcodec as build dependency
10:01:24 <TrueBrain> why do we need grfcodec to add some translations in a baseset file?
10:01:56 <Eddi|zuHause> the .grf file is something different than the .obg file
10:02:26 <TrueBrain> so that leaves the quest: why do the obg need to be precompiled? :)
10:03:36 <Eddi|zuHause> it contains the md5sum of the grf files?
10:04:02 <Eddi|zuHause> so it's naturally the result of compiling the grf file
10:05:33 <TrueBrain> guess eints-openttd needs some additional lines in some script than
10:05:52 <peter1138> Are there any platforms where the ob* files are not built? Visual Studio?
10:07:44 <LordAro> i imagine that'll be the reason, that's why the .sq files aren't autogenerated
10:07:56 <peter1138> So I removed the *ob* files and... they are not regenerated :p
10:11:43 <peter1138> How's that build system rewrite going...?
10:16:33 <peter1138> It doesn't update the translations if grfcodec is not installed.
10:17:40 <peter1138> (So if you don't have grfcodec installed, you wouldn't notice that these ob* files get updated)
10:31:20 <Eddi|zuHause> so the file generation must be split in two steps, one which calculates the md5 after creating the grf file, and the other that adds the translations. so the translation step can run without grfcodec present
10:31:24 <peter1138> I think they should be built independently of the grf files, and the final version not included in the repo.
10:33:20 <Eddi|zuHause> it might defeat the point of the md5 sum somewhat if it were recalculated every time the translations are updated?
10:34:51 <Eddi|zuHause> dunno if that made any sense, still early :p
10:40:33 <planetmaker> the grf contains the translations which are added by eints. And the baseset file describtion (obg) contains the md5 of the grf files which make up the base set
10:40:59 <planetmaker> so yes, first you need to compile the grf which includes the strings. And then you can re-generate the obg with updated md5
10:42:24 <planetmaker> * eints commit modifies a file which contains strings for the grf
10:42:35 <planetmaker> * grfcodec uses that file and generates the grf
10:42:46 <planetmaker> * whatever uses the grf to generate the obg file
10:43:24 <planetmaker> currently eints commits only cover the 1st step. The 2nd and 3rd are only done when a committer does so manually
10:43:32 <Eddi|zuHause> no, the translations are almost definitely in the .obg file
10:43:47 <planetmaker> Generally, there's not much traffic in the strings for base set translations...
10:43:51 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think basesets have an action14
10:46:28 <Eddi|zuHause> there seems to be ./media/baseset/*.obg with a placeholder for the translations, and ./bin/baseset/*.obg with the translations included. so the process probably has the relevant steps already, it just needs to run
10:46:57 <planetmaker> yes-ish. there's an awk file in media/baseset which takes care of that if run
10:47:19 <planetmaker> and there's Makefile.lang.in which likely calls that
10:48:16 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, so that part of the baseset makefile must be run also if grfcodec is not present
10:53:05 <peter1138> Yeah, the translations are in the ob* files, not the grfs themselves.
10:53:32 <peter1138> I'm also talking about obm files, which don't have grfs
10:53:45 <peter1138> But still depends on grfcodec to be built :p
10:56:26 <TrueBrain> tnx for splitting it up peter1138; that is a lot easier to review :D
11:01:21 <TrueBrain> hmm .. it seems GitHub no longer sends me emails when someone pushes new stuff in a PR
11:02:11 <TrueBrain> peter1138: #6780, you added and removed the same label :D Was that intended?
11:02:35 <peter1138> TrueBrain, I was on the wrong issue :P
11:02:47 <TrueBrain> it seems it now needs a review again, not?
11:03:11 <peter1138> Not sure, don't remember if I pushed to it.
11:03:33 <peter1138> Ok, then I should've left it off
11:03:38 <TrueBrain> I really dont like GitHub for the workflow .. we really have to figure out our own it seems
11:03:55 <TrueBrain> I am thinking of making DorpsGek remove 'waiting-on-author' when someone updates a PR
11:04:09 <TrueBrain> and that we add the label when we left comments
11:04:25 <TrueBrain> not sure .. but keeping overview with default github stuff is .. euh .. yeah, no
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11:10:06 <TrueBrain> hello andythenorth! Feel like testing the Forest patch this week? :D (mostly the different climates)
11:10:23 <andythenorth> now that my build work
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12:03:55 <peter1138> Please don't, over develop it.
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13:30:55 <andythenorth> the forest patch?
13:30:58 <andythenorth> or just everything?
13:31:04 <TrueBrain> the world dude; THE WORLD!
13:34:28 <peter1138> Just quoting a necro-post.
13:52:16 <TrueBrain> that bug seems unfixable indeed
13:52:24 <TrueBrain> okay, closed the PR, remove your repository, and the branch
13:52:51 <peter1138> andythenorth likes the D
13:53:02 <TrueBrain> as long as it aint a double-D!
13:53:02 <andythenorth> so I should delete my fork too>
13:53:04 <peter1138> Damn, you wait ages for lunch, and then it's over in seconds.
13:53:09 <TrueBrain> I removed your fork
13:53:12 <TrueBrain> and the files on your disk
13:53:14 <andythenorth> and peter's fork, because I forked from that
13:53:28 <TrueBrain> I just remove the Internet
13:53:42 <andythenorth> I am glad we had this chat
13:54:12 <peter1138> Meanwhile, the "realistic" shunting patch is buggy and people are saying it's ready and should be included in patch packs...
13:54:31 <andythenorth> well we included ICU
13:54:33 <andythenorth> and that's buggy
13:54:40 <peter1138> It is now, it used to be fine.
13:54:54 <andythenorth> so many and very things
13:54:54 <TrueBrain> when he tested it, it was fine! :P
13:55:04 <andythenorth> but is it lunch?
13:55:16 <peter1138> Well, I had mine :S
13:55:22 <peter1138> Was I too early? Should I have another?
13:55:24 <TrueBrain> I had mine 2 hours ago :o
13:55:52 <TrueBrain> wtf is shunting, I wonder ..
13:56:26 <TrueBrain> I just googled it :P
13:56:39 <peter1138> model railway simulation
13:57:00 <TrueBrain> you have a VR game "Derailed"
13:57:03 <TrueBrain> where you are in a locomotive
13:57:09 <TrueBrain> and have to collect all the wagons and move them to the right spot, etc
13:57:18 <TrueBrain> pretty funny, but difficult
13:57:50 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i guess the quality of "well tested" has not really changed in the past 10 years :p
13:58:04 <TrueBrain> "it compiles" == "well tested"
13:58:18 <TrueBrain> "it works for me" == "looks good to me"
13:58:27 <TrueBrain> holds for any Open Source project I am afraid :P
13:58:32 <Eddi|zuHause> "patchpack X has it included"
13:59:15 <TrueBrain> I like all the animated gifs :D
13:59:58 <TrueBrain> so I can make that on a big hill it can bring up one wagon at the time?! :D
14:01:11 <Eddi|zuHause> unless you're using a fancy newgrf
14:01:17 <Eddi|zuHause> then it crashes :p
14:01:35 <TrueBrain> mb's fault, I am sure
14:02:36 <andythenorth> but if you try and explain anything in the thread
14:02:39 <andythenorth> you are using fancy words
14:02:42 <Eddi|zuHause> it was definitely MB who put into Snail's head to make this kind of fine grained detail into his grf :p
14:02:46 <andythenorth> and are part of an entourage
14:03:03 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that is just a typical comment from the wannabe-devs that make up the entourage, tbbh
14:03:31 <TrueBrain> fancy pancy, I love fancy words
14:03:34 <TrueBrain> I never know what they mean
14:03:38 <TrueBrain> they are so cute and pretty
14:03:43 <TrueBrain> we are still talking about words, right?
14:04:18 <Eddi|zuHause> so does that mean i'm in TrueBrain's entourage or TrueBrain is in my entourage?
14:04:49 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm unsure how the rules are on this :p
14:05:32 <TrueBrain> can we put them in a newgrf?
14:05:48 <Eddi|zuHause> no, you must use a modern language
14:05:51 <TrueBrain> can we get that clear? I am a bit scared about this entourage now
14:06:23 <TrueBrain> I wish I had time to do stuff on OpenTTD, instead of all this infrastructure blabla
14:08:51 <TrueBrain> I do not understand that reply at all
14:08:57 <TrueBrain> I do like that he will only post serious comments
14:09:03 <TrueBrain> I guess a joke is out of the question now!
14:11:00 <andythenorth> is it a knock-knock joke?
14:11:06 <andythenorth> they're the best kind
14:11:12 <andythenorth> I'd do Interrupting Cow
14:11:19 <andythenorth> but it's really hard in async chat
14:11:35 <TrueBrain> non-blocking chat :D
14:11:41 <TrueBrain> YOU CANT TELL ME TO SHUT UP
14:11:44 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: TrueBrain
14:14:25 <andythenorth> forums are so shit for development
14:14:37 * andythenorth needs to test forests
14:19:34 <peter1138> TrueBrain, yeah, I played derailed. The demo had a bug with time going too fast so it's waaaay too hard.
14:19:58 <TrueBrain> I derailed so many trains :D
14:20:24 <peter1138> Ah it's Derail Valley
14:20:35 <TrueBrain> is there a non-beta already?
14:20:37 <peter1138> Hmm still not released :(
14:20:47 <peter1138> TrueBrain, google thiks I need to be more exact ;(
14:20:59 <peter1138> "steam" + "derailed" brings up a lot of wrong hits, hehe
14:21:16 <peter1138> Although actually the correct hit is the first item
14:21:58 <peter1138> "I read that path signals are a CPU hog"
14:22:13 <TrueBrain> I read a lot of stuff
14:22:41 <peter1138> Somebody spread this myth around everywhere.
14:23:30 <peter1138> If you get to the bottom of it, it's a very minor train-performance thing where stopped trains don't *instantly* restart when the path is free, nothing to do with CPU.
14:23:54 <peter1138> Someone must have seen "performance issue" and figured it was CPU.
14:25:28 <andythenorth> derail valley looks fun
14:25:32 <andythenorth> no headset tho :P
14:25:41 <TrueBrain> headset is not important; VR glasses is :D
14:25:42 <peter1138> It is. Total micromanagement.
14:26:07 <peter1138> There's another VR game which is .. a model railway simulator.
14:26:46 <peter1138> You can change scale and drive trains, of course.
14:26:49 <andythenorth> graphics look weird
14:26:55 <andythenorth> not one thing nor the other
14:27:00 <peter1138> Yeah, pretty stylised.
14:28:21 <andythenorth> so what's the forest patch for then?
14:28:29 <andythenorth> is it just 'fewer trees'?
14:56:26 <TrueBrain> who dares to click that link to check if it is legit?
14:56:34 <TrueBrain> (sorry, but it just sounds scetchy :D)
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16:01:27 <imdak> I can vouch for the survey being legit ;)
16:15:13 <TrueBrain> nielsm: seems you have a fan which wants to alter your FPS window some more :)
16:15:21 <TrueBrain> possibly best if you take a look at it (both at the PR as the issue)
16:31:45 <Inari> Hi there! Not sure where to ask. So I installed OpenTTD with the Windows installer, and that worked okay. Now I'm trying to use a mod, which comes with a precompiled binary, so I extracted that and try to start it, but it seemed to want me to download opengfx/sfx/msx. I did download opengfx and placed it into the baseset folder, as the readme of it tells me to. However, upon starting, OpenTTD
16:32:17 <Inari> doesn't seem to recognize that, and the OpenTTD readme tells me to put it into the data folder instead, where it seems to find it, but just proceeds to tell me that the files are corrupted or missing?
16:43:39 <nielsm> TrueBrain, that's something to annoy me :D he had a month or more to bring this up before the PR was merged
16:43:55 <nielsm> guess not everyone looks at the PRs :)
16:49:39 <Inari> Ah, perhaps because the ttd version is quite old
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17:17:46 <andythenorth> over-developed it
17:31:12 <TrueBrain> nielsm: indeed :) And that is okay :) At least he made a PR, that I always appreciate :)
17:44:35 <Eddi|zuHause> so, can anyone write me a browser plugin that only works on the youtube "watch later" playlist, and replaces all video links there with ones without the playlist attached to it? so i can click on videos there and only watch that video.
17:45:48 <Eddi|zuHause> basically, "s/&list=WL//"
17:50:21 <Alberth> you are aware that the performance record of anyone isn't very good eh?
17:50:48 <Eddi|zuHause> possibly, but is it really worse than mine? :p
17:50:59 <andythenorth> I found the wikipedia page I needed finally
17:52:08 <andythenorth> I should replace Ethlyene
17:52:27 <andythenorth> 'Petrochemical Intermediate Feedstocks'
17:52:33 <andythenorth> it's quite long for a cargo name though :P
17:53:01 <Alberth> chemists have a long track record for inventing long names :p
17:53:55 <andythenorth> I wondered about 'petrochemicals'
17:53:57 <Eddi|zuHause> now imagine in german chemical compound words, where you leave out such spaces inbetween
17:54:39 <andythenorth> I think I need to do a chemical industry economy
17:54:44 <andythenorth> and extreme isn't that :P
17:55:22 <Eddi|zuHause> well, you will horribly fail on that with the input/output restrictions :p
17:55:23 <andythenorth> so does it make sense to just have 'petroleum fuels' and 'petrochemicals'?
17:55:47 <andythenorth> this would fold 'ammonia' and 'ethylene' into petrochemicals
17:55:58 <andythenorth> lye, sulphur, soda ash would all stay
17:56:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think ammonia fits that category
17:56:23 <andythenorth> folding too far?
17:56:39 <andythenorth> the main advantage of replacing ethylene is I can give it a second destination somewhere
17:56:50 <andythenorth> whereas ethylene can only go to the polymer plant
17:58:02 <andythenorth> but if I fold it into petrochemicals, then petrochemicals can go to the specialty chemicals plant
17:58:11 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but petrochemicals are pretty much all carbon-chain stuff. while ammonia is nitrogen stuff
17:58:41 <andythenorth> so I'm trying to cover the big 5 or so
18:01:52 <andythenorth> apparently oxygen isn't widely transported, although I did consider a cryo plant
18:02:04 <andythenorth> similarly nitrogen
18:02:22 <andythenorth> ethanol I tried but I think it conflates with alcohol in game
18:03:05 <andythenorth> ethylene, ethylene dichloride and propylene all originate in petrochem and product plastic, so not worth splitting
18:03:15 <andythenorth> produce / product /s
18:04:23 <Eddi|zuHause> you mean splitting "consumer alcohol" and "industrial alcohol" (includes methanol and stuff)?
18:05:41 <andythenorth> or using consumer alcohol in industrial processes
18:05:47 <Alberth> beer vs alcohol, right?
18:05:52 <andythenorth> I couldn't see a way to make it good, so I didn't do it
18:06:03 <andythenorth> beer, wine, vodka, cide vs. industrial alcohol
18:06:23 <andythenorth> there was a similar issue with acetic acid which would be a nice food additive, and is used for plastic + glue
18:06:45 <andythenorth> industry uses petrochem acetic acid, but food use must be derived from crops
18:07:25 <andythenorth> I removed the biorefinery for related reasons, as they produce ethanol, not petroleum fuels
18:22:04 <Alberth> but yeah, reality is always more complicated
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19:13:33 <TrueBrain> frosch promised me!
19:18:32 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I really hope GCP can give us a nice offer ... would be such a relieve :)
19:18:44 <andythenorth> I know nothing about them :)
19:18:50 <andythenorth> I just thought the article was interesting :)
19:19:18 <andythenorth> I live in a world where single-app VMs are deployed
19:19:33 <TrueBrain> its better than multi-app, what we had before that
19:19:39 <TrueBrain> but containers is the next step
19:19:44 <TrueBrain> so you are just on the ladder :D
19:20:41 <andythenorth> we might actually go back to multi-app, with mono-repo
19:20:56 <andythenorth> but single-tenant
19:21:11 <TrueBrain> the other day I read an article of a dude that claimed going from microservices back to monolitic was the best move they made in years .. it made me cry ...
19:21:40 <andythenorth> there have been a few of those
19:21:48 <andythenorth> I think it very depends on your use case
19:22:04 <TrueBrain> if you went to microservices and it is failing, it is most likely not because of microservices
19:22:05 <andythenorth> much of life is simpler with a monolithic app
19:22:22 <TrueBrain> yup; its simpler to put in a single human brain
19:22:29 <TrueBrain> and there often architects go wrong :)
19:22:40 <andythenorth> someone showed me nanoservices
19:22:47 <andythenorth> I assumed it was a troll, but no
19:22:55 <TrueBrain> thinking about your product as a big black box is rarely a good idea :)
19:23:07 <andythenorth> nanoservices are single method calls/returns over http
19:24:09 <TrueBrain> the name is somewhat changing over the last few months
19:24:12 <TrueBrain> more towards "functions"
19:24:17 <TrueBrain> serverless functions
19:24:29 <TrueBrain> but people have issues with the word "serverless", as they are not serverless .. just from the point of the author it is
19:24:30 <andythenorth> I guess it's nice when state doesn't matter
19:24:43 <TrueBrain> stateless, lambdas are very very good (and fast, etc)
19:24:47 <TrueBrain> stateful, it is not hopeless
19:24:57 <TrueBrain> you just need a fast "database" next to it
19:25:11 <andythenorth> how does it roll back transactions? :P
19:25:16 <TrueBrain> as functions can persist on most clouds for a period of time, where they are recycled
19:25:25 <andythenorth> when something like 'create user' is a nanoservice
19:25:46 <andythenorth> there are probably better examples, but eh
19:25:54 <TrueBrain> a function is a single transaction
19:25:57 <TrueBrain> so he can roll himself back
19:26:04 <andythenorth> nah the example I saw was overly-nano
19:26:16 <andythenorth> I'm sure it was a clever troll
19:26:26 <TrueBrain> I havent heard the name nanoservice yet
19:26:31 <TrueBrain> but lambdas is very popular atm
19:26:35 <TrueBrain> all cloud providers suplpy it
19:26:55 <TrueBrain> I tried it for OpenTTD .. I didn't like it :P
19:27:09 <TrueBrain> (you need proper infrastructure :D)
19:27:24 <andythenorth> so on AWS lambda
19:27:26 <andythenorth> what's a good case?
19:27:40 <andythenorth> I assumed it was for things like 'render this PDF from this input I'm passing'
19:27:58 <nielsm> you need a language where a single source file compiles to a full distributed system of many elements
19:28:02 <TrueBrain> I guess it could work for that too ... but often lambdas are very small pieces of work
19:28:20 <andythenorth> the nanoservices example I saw was much closer to 'convert this int to a string'
19:28:23 <TrueBrain> but I think most of the webshops etc can be done in lambdas
19:28:30 <andythenorth> or 'add this value to a list'
19:28:35 <TrueBrain> at a certain point your overhead wins
19:28:50 <TrueBrain> so there is a line you dont want to cross
19:29:05 <TrueBrain> if you do good system design, you have a presentation layer, application layer and data layer
19:29:15 <TrueBrain> in each layer are a lot of entries (APIs)
19:29:22 <TrueBrain> in the data layer for example: create_user
19:29:23 <peter1138> Is it dinner time yet?
19:29:33 <TrueBrain> in the application layer: if (is_admin) create_user
19:29:35 <andythenorth> peter1138: definitely
19:29:42 <TrueBrain> in the presentation layer an HTML website to create a user if you are admin
19:29:47 <TrueBrain> all these API entries, can be lambdas
19:29:53 <peter1138> Oh god no, I am not made of money.
19:29:53 <TrueBrain> but going any smaller ... I doubt that helps
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19:31:26 <nielsm> in my (limited) experience the border between what should be "application" and what should be "data" layer is really blurry
19:32:13 <TrueBrain> it shouldn't; but I often notice people do have trouble finding the line
19:32:18 <nielsm> so even when you try to split it up you get a tight coupliung
19:32:28 <TrueBrain> as the application layer answers business questions
19:32:37 <TrueBrain> and the data layer answers "data" questions, or "service"
19:33:24 <TrueBrain> but yeah ... if the line becomes blurry, just stop making the separation :)
19:33:37 <TrueBrain> for most small projects it is also a non-issue .. just use an ORM, and you will be fine
19:33:46 <TrueBrain> only for really big projects you want those layers to be far apart :)
19:34:14 <TrueBrain> (as you will want to replace that MySQL with Postgres, without rewriting EVERYTHING)
19:34:50 <TrueBrain> but then you have architects, and they should know how to make layer separation clear to anyone, and everything goes fine :D
19:35:12 <TrueBrain> that line 742 .. always the same one ...
19:35:17 <TrueBrain> we had this talk with him many times
19:35:20 <TrueBrain> but he doesnt want to listen
19:35:50 <Alberth> stubborn line eh? better remove it andy
19:36:25 <andythenorth> I am curious about that, I don't get the parse error in chrome :)
19:36:48 <andythenorth> oh and the zoom tool is working agan
19:36:53 <Alberth> right, I do use ff :p
19:37:08 <andythenorth> I spent last week chasing a rendering bug in webkit that keeps disappearing
19:37:15 <andythenorth> so we can't repro it in QA
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19:38:33 <Wolf01> So I'm more poor of 500€, and more rich of 2 Voltron, some motors and a bag of parts I need
19:40:59 <Wolf01> Nasty 40T gears... they cost a lot, more than 8€ only for them :[
19:41:49 <Alberth> 'reload' resolves the problem
19:53:18 <Alberth> at least it's extreme in cargo names already :)
19:53:38 <Alberth> but stuff does make sense to me
19:54:18 <peter1138> TrueBrain, hmm, can the commit linter check for this like versioned files being modified?
19:54:34 <TrueBrain> holy crap, that sentence!
19:54:40 <TrueBrain> do you supply a lexer with that?
19:55:11 <peter1138> TrueBrain, hmm, can the commit linter check for versioned files being modified during build?
19:56:10 <TrueBrain> yeah, there were a few other options there :) Like savegame revision, etc :)
19:56:13 <Alberth> ie you want a check that at least one file is being changed?
19:56:54 <TrueBrain> and I guess "commit linter" is you jumping to a solution, so I guess the question is: can the CI detect that is a file in git is changed after build?
19:57:05 <Eddi|zuHause> you mean like it checks whether projects/generate produces a change in project files?
19:57:06 <peter1138> jesus fucking christ
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19:57:15 <TrueBrain> okay ... sorry I am not as smart as you
19:58:09 <TrueBrain> guess next time I will not take the effort to understand him or something (?)
19:58:11 <Alberth> that sentence was clearly too difficult for us
19:58:52 <TrueBrain> seriously wondering if it is me, but I fail to see how .. or am I this alienated that I would like to know the question before answering?
19:59:24 <Alberth> or understand the problem, that might help too :)
20:00:06 <TrueBrain> always makes me giggle at work, people come to me with a solution .. than you have to backtrack to the problem .. which can take some significant amount of time :D
20:01:01 <Eddi|zuHause> i can't count the number of times i answered forum posts with "... and which problem exactly is that meant to solve?"
20:05:17 <andythenorth> sometimes it's hard to formulate the problem
20:05:27 <andythenorth> and easy to get stuck on a possible solution
20:05:33 <TrueBrain> a human is poorly build to give a problem :)
20:05:34 <andythenorth> "if I could only do x then..."
20:05:46 <andythenorth> so it becomes 'how to get x', not 'why do x'
20:05:48 <TrueBrain> that is why it is important to take the time to walk back to the problem :)
20:06:02 <andythenorth> ok let's play this game
20:06:19 <andythenorth> can anyone find me a picture of a Copper Naphthenate production plant
20:06:41 <andythenorth> no you have to ask 'why'
20:07:39 <andythenorth> because that industry already exists in FIRS
20:07:54 <andythenorth> and it needs a chemical input
20:08:12 <andythenorth> it exists to give a wood -> engineering supplies chain
20:08:25 <andythenorth> because IRL mines need pit props
20:08:31 <TrueBrain> (this game is a bit boring)
20:08:36 <andythenorth> did you do 5 yet?
20:08:54 <andythenorth> prizes all round
20:09:03 <andythenorth> shall I just delete the industry?
20:10:08 <TrueBrain> I refuse to answer that question!
20:10:54 <andythenorth> it's ok, I'm googling :P
20:10:59 <andythenorth> google will tell me the answer
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20:26:42 <TrueBrain> frosch123: PR # 6863, if you happen to have time, do we do that for all windows? (in other words, PR looks okay to you too?)
20:31:06 <frosch123> i think we do that for all windows
20:31:16 <frosch123> there is a script to generate script_window.hpp
20:32:22 <frosch123> we even do it for the intro_gui
20:32:36 <frosch123> so, quite sure for all :)
20:33:24 <TrueBrain> if you dont touch code long enough, it is better to validate these things :D
20:33:36 <TrueBrain> but I see michi_cc beat me to it :P
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20:39:40 <frosch123> hmm, i wonder how long i can ignore the fact that i have to get up at 5 am tomorrow :/
20:40:00 <frosch123> though i worry that andy does that every day :p
20:41:27 <TrueBrain> why so early? Sounds horrible ..
20:41:45 <TrueBrain> okay, landscape.html is a bit weird .. it says: "see signals", which I cannot find ..
20:42:11 <andythenorth> I used to do that
20:42:23 <andythenorth> 6am-7am most days
20:42:47 <frosch123> i have a meeting at 10am, 600km away
20:45:58 <TrueBrain> frosch123: in saveload.cpp is this list of savegame versions and their svn number; now we no longer have that, it is empty
20:46:21 <TrueBrain> which leads to "clean" merges which should happen (paraphrasing peter1138 here)
20:46:29 <TrueBrain> do we want to add the PR there or something?
20:46:33 <frosch123> the list is used to know the savegame version of stable branches
20:46:40 <michi_cc> TrueBrain: Next time, make him do the work himself.
20:46:43 <frosch123> the numbers in between are just for the looks
20:47:04 <TrueBrain> michi_cc: who? JGR or nielsm? :)
20:47:13 <TrueBrain> frosch123: so better to remove those?
20:47:16 <michi_cc> nielsm in this case.
20:47:24 <TrueBrain> michi_cc: I agree; frosch123: you too? :)
20:47:42 <frosch123> no idea, did not follow :)
20:47:56 <TrueBrain> sorry, 2 conversations at once
20:48:01 <TrueBrain> let me branch of one of them
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21:01:03 <TrueBrain> about to approve adding m8 to the map .. somehow that feels a bit scary ..
21:01:12 <TrueBrain> we really need nightlies for the testing :D
21:02:21 <andythenorth> is someone working on that? o_O
21:02:44 <TrueBrain> *looks in the mirror*
21:04:59 <Wolf01> <TrueBrain> we really need nightlies for the testing :D <- make a patchpack
21:05:30 <TrueBrain> yeah, and ask someone to compile it
21:05:33 <TrueBrain> and put that somewhere
21:05:36 <TrueBrain> and publish that link :P
21:05:55 <TrueBrain> I am a bit annoyed that the old CF is offline .. but okay .. with the CD working, it should go a bit faster
21:06:03 <nielsm> nightlies should possibly also include open PRs?
21:06:04 <TrueBrain> just this weather ... I work so poorly in this weatherrrrrrrrrrr
21:06:15 <TrueBrain> nielsm: the idea is, for me at least, that you can say: @dorpsgek create binaries
21:06:25 <TrueBrain> and that he posts links to binaries after a while, for that version of the PR
21:06:46 <TrueBrain> if you have better/smarter ideas, I would love to hear it :D
21:06:50 <nielsm> so as PR author you can state "ready for testing"
21:07:07 <TrueBrain> lot of unanswered questions, like who can request the binaries
21:07:31 <TrueBrain> but also possibly it is just easier to publish them for every PR
21:07:51 <TrueBrain> not sure yet, if it should be on-demand or not
21:08:00 <TrueBrain> from a security perspective, I rather have a dev can only request it :)
21:08:09 <nielsm> yeah I thought about, if the PR passes CI checks just publish the resulting builds?
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21:08:40 <TrueBrain> (you don't want to publish binaries that, looking at the PR, bricks peoples machine :D)
21:08:45 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: how hot is it there?
21:08:50 <TrueBrain> I am a bit paranoid in those regards ;)
21:08:56 <TrueBrain> it was 28 degrees 30 minutes ago
21:09:37 <nielsm> also a way to re-request a new build when master has moved since the last CI run
21:10:16 <michi_cc> nielsm: You IRC client should be telling you something.
21:10:23 <TrueBrain> DorpsGek-github allows all that nielsm; I just need someone to add it :D
21:14:49 <andythenorth> found a bonza cargo
21:15:01 <andythenorth> I like it when RL validates what I need to do in game
21:23:32 <TrueBrain> right, time to watch a movie or something; nn!
21:32:35 <andythenorth> so 3 industry outputs then? o_O
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22:11:14 <Eddi|zuHause> 64 industry outputs you mean?
22:11:25 <andythenorth> that's a nice idea
22:11:33 <andythenorth> but I think the industry window might not work very well
22:11:45 <andythenorth> the logical route now is 'no constraints'
22:11:48 <Eddi|zuHause> 1 industry that accepts all cargos
22:11:53 <Eddi|zuHause> and produces all cargos
22:12:26 <Eddi|zuHause> dunno, sometimes constraints lead to creativity. sometimes they're just stupid
22:12:47 <Wolf01> Like Pokémon with the 4 moves constraint
22:13:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no clue what that is
22:13:22 <Eddi|zuHause> or which of those two categories :p
22:15:53 <andythenorth> I could patch FIRS to model 64 outputs
22:15:58 <andythenorth> and see whether it's stupid
22:16:17 <andythenorth> I think it ends in giant industries like:
22:17:35 <Eddi|zuHause> add more cargos that must be delivered in tiny quantities, so you need shunting and cargodist both working simultaneously :p
22:18:47 <andythenorth> oil refinery complex: accepts oil; produces: bitumen, ethylene, BTX, gasoline, ammonia, propylene, sulfur, petcoke
22:19:29 <andythenorth> steelworks: accepts: coal, iron ore, limestone, scrap metal, alloys, acid: produces: steel, slag
22:19:48 <andythenorth> also tar, sulphur, ammonia
22:20:32 <andythenorth> eh with shunting and cdist, could just leave wagons there filling up
22:20:37 <andythenorth> is shunting for RVs too?
22:20:40 <andythenorth> and container ships?
22:21:42 <Wolf01> Shunting container ships?
22:23:48 <Wolf01> You could make 20x20 tiles industries and abuse of tile acceptance
22:24:27 <nielsm> I still think multi-part industries (or sub-industries?) could be a neat solution
22:25:06 <andythenorth> I suggest pipelines + conveyors :P
22:25:11 <andythenorth> whole new transport type
22:26:13 <andythenorth> nielsm: what's the proposal?
22:26:53 <nielsm> my idea is to introduce a CB when an industry is built, where the industry returns that it also wants these N other industries of types A,B,C built nearby
22:27:07 <nielsm> (and if those can't be built too, building of the main fails)
22:27:25 <nielsm> the sub-industries become linked to the main and they have some shared data
22:29:34 <nielsm> otoh it probably complicates opening/closing rules too much so just having a mega-industry might be better
22:29:48 <andythenorth> do a 64 cargos patch? o_O
22:29:58 <nielsm> though maybe allow some flexibility with multi building complexes where all buildings don't need to be on the same level
22:30:03 <nielsm> (is that already supported?)
22:30:12 <andythenorth> on the same tile?
22:30:37 <andythenorth> tile height is arbitrary, unless the newgrf enforces flat
22:30:56 <andythenorth> however there's no reliable terraforming, which can be a problem
22:31:54 <nielsm> so some manner of sub-buildings that are placed separately from the main building, but become part of the same industry entity at the end
22:32:03 <nielsm> could still be a useful extra feature
22:33:27 <nielsm> it could also give much more randomisation of industry layouts if the game is allowed to place several buildings randomly around an area
22:34:43 <andythenorth> I think that can already be approximated with the layouts
22:34:52 <andythenorth> provide enough layouts, similar result
22:37:39 <nielsm> in my idea, every sub-building provides its own layouts, so with multiple sub-buildings, each which has a random layout picked, and a random position picked, you get explosive growth of possible final layouts
22:39:23 <andythenorth> I just wonder if it's a lot of work for you that can be faked anyway already :)
22:42:15 <andythenorth> 'pigments' cargo?
22:44:07 <nielsm> where would it be produced?
22:44:43 <nielsm> some kind of chemistry lab?
22:47:22 <andythenorth> the great solution to all FIRS problems
22:53:50 <nielsm> have an additional "minerals" cargo that every mine type industry produces, and have it processed in large quantities to produce all sorts of minor products
22:54:03 <nielsm> maybe also "hifi equipment"
22:56:10 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but how do you unify things like TiO2 (white) and C (black)?
22:56:32 <andythenorth> I added carbon black to steeltown :P
22:56:41 <andythenorth> but it was too niche, so I deleted it
23:00:23 <andythenorth> I did have mineral sands or something, but I deleted
23:00:30 <andythenorth> or maybe that was rare earth metals
23:00:33 <Eddi|zuHause> something for V, give each pigment colour a matching wagon colour :p
23:01:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure that TiO2 constitutes a rare earth
23:02:50 <andythenorth> how do I get creosote?
23:06:53 <andythenorth> I should add 'xyz byproducts' cargo to lots of industries
23:07:12 <andythenorth> then split them in a 'xyz byproducts processor'
23:07:22 <andythenorth> it's like pairing transistors :P
23:08:04 <andythenorth> the food chain is now almost divorced from industry chain, which is nice
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