IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2018-04-19
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00:41:30 <supermop> Pikka: will civil ai ever build a passenger train?
00:42:35 <Pikka> currently it builds trains to industries which produce goods, food, or nothing.
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01:25:56 <V453000> Eddi|zuHause2: obviously :)
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07:08:17 <peter1138> hello it is morning
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08:00:56 <peter1138> hurr, can't quite get into 32" waist yet
08:03:22 <peter1138> guess i should change the title of TR 6737
08:04:29 <__ln__> after about a week on github there are already nearly seven thousand pull requests?
08:05:05 <peter1138> we imported all the bugs from flyspray, and issues/PRs use the same numbering.
08:06:53 <peter1138> useful to ensure saying #xxx doesn't refer to two things.
08:08:22 <__ln__> were PRs manually created though?
08:08:54 <peter1138> no because there were no PRs with SVN
08:09:33 <peter1138> old patches are linked to flyspray still, i believe.
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08:24:10 <andythenorth> also not enough sleep
08:24:14 <andythenorth> errors of sleeping
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08:27:53 <andythenorth> Pikka: NARS 3 next o_O
08:29:30 <Pikka> I only need one train set, something else next ;) I'm sure you've found the same with horses.
08:30:41 <andythenorth> but I still play NARS 2 sometimes not Horse
08:30:55 <andythenorth> NA roster in Horse eh
08:32:10 <Pikka> if Dan wants to come back and draw it all, I'll code NARS 3
08:32:48 <andythenorth> he might draw 2x
08:32:53 <andythenorth> I want to draw 1x in Horse
08:33:34 <Pikka> NARS2 sprites as a base?
08:33:44 <andythenorth> it is interesting to do UK Horse at same time you do UKRS 3
08:33:53 <andythenorth> less pondering, more doing
08:35:11 <Pikka> OVSB and his carriage-shaped-lump loco aesthetic... it's strangely nice.
08:36:22 <andythenorth> some of those vans are the wrong scale
08:36:27 <andythenorth> 1px too low or high
08:36:40 <andythenorth> and they're all the wrong scale for engine
08:36:51 <andythenorth> OVSB 2 is needed
08:37:07 <Pikka> or some other word beginning with R
08:37:45 <andythenorth> so I have this 'only one obvious engine choice' strategy in Horse
08:38:07 <andythenorth> but after building a freight 4-8-0 for 50 trains
08:38:13 <andythenorth> I'm not 100% convinced
08:38:43 <Pikka> it's nice to try and keep the locos widely seperated in stats
08:39:09 <Pikka> but OTOH it's nice to keep older locos useful so that the player doesn't necessarily autoreplace everything as soon as something new comes out
08:41:12 <Pikka> I've started filling in the gaps in my 10 locos with a B set, which is filling the roles that didn't quite get filled by the A set, and the C set, which are locos I just want to add...
08:41:17 <Pikka> now it just looks like UKRS2 :P
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08:44:20 <Pikka> 33, including the bulleid blob, but I'm not sure I can fit that in.
08:44:25 <Pikka> and I haven't done third rail yet...
08:45:41 <V453000> I resorted to 11 vehicles to make the purchase menu simple and easy ... with varying graphics I'm getting something like 100 unique trains again ._.
08:46:24 <Pikka> where's the IH roster? :D
08:47:26 <V453000> holy shit many wagons :D
08:48:52 <V453000> it's a nice set andy, one thing I can really appreciate is that all of the vehicles have kind of consistent style as opposed to NUTS where many of them don't even look like they are from the same sety
08:49:12 <andythenorth> V453000: also not all repainted yet :)
08:49:56 * andythenorth counting on fingers
08:50:15 <Pikka> andy: having slow-as-dirt freight wagons helps differentiate the locos, I think
08:50:35 <andythenorth> wagon speed limits innit
08:50:40 <andythenorth> I have 34 RAIL/ELRL
08:51:14 <andythenorth> the 'roles' idea came from frosch btw
08:51:36 <Pikka> players will only consider the slower freight locos if wagonspeedlimits would mean the faster express locos are wasted
08:51:40 <andythenorth> it wasn't new, but he tested Horse 1 and made suggestions about HP and TE for different roles
08:52:47 <V453000> from quick counting NUTS seems to have 119 locomotives
08:52:52 <andythenorth> Pikka: although I also have speed limits, the heavy freight engines also have much HP than the express engines for same gen
08:53:12 <andythenorth> pax are fast but gutless
08:53:32 <andythenorth> electric is fast, high HP, but no TE
08:59:26 <andythenorth> sack the deltic :P
08:59:34 * andythenorth is a broken record
08:59:52 <Pikka> because nobody likes deltics :P
09:00:09 <andythenorth> because you can have 110mph at 2700hp
09:00:45 <andythenorth> wiki says 90mph, but obvs. drivers didn't used to stick to speed limits
09:01:17 <Pikka> that's only 120hp more than the 47 though ;)
09:03:00 <andythenorth> you've already drawn the duff eh :P
09:03:05 <andythenorth> I will leave your roster alone
09:04:00 <Pikka> there's always room for more later
09:05:40 <andythenorth> this is why I have 'more rosters to do'
09:05:48 <andythenorth> stops me over-producing one country :D
09:08:43 <Pikka> I've gone high at the top ends, like 110 for the A4s and Deltics... but speed is useful to differentiate locos
09:09:13 <Pikka> like I've limited the 4MT tank to 60, when apparently they could do 90+... it'd just be too useful if it were faster
09:10:25 <andythenorth> you did the class 14 :)
09:11:28 <Pikka> yes :P the 08 in UKRS2 was a bit silly, I'll save that for a station/industry prop.
09:12:02 <andythenorth> gronk has no place
09:13:58 <Pikka> probably need a 67... but later
09:14:16 <andythenorth> there was one in Horse 1, never used
09:14:27 <Pikka> same in UKRS2, they look nice though
09:14:49 <Pikka> it's in the "if I get bored and draw it" category. GT3? :P
09:15:15 <andythenorth> QLD narrow guage
09:15:21 <andythenorth> you can re-use the HST
09:16:29 <andythenorth> just pineapples then
09:17:13 <andythenorth> I have just 145 more trains to draw for UK Horse
09:18:14 <Pikka> rather than draw arbitrary wood loads, draw the plantation pine for future forest industries and cut it up ;)
10:00:21 <peter1138> TrueBrain, is it right/okay to change a PR title if the patch changes significantly? PR #6737
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10:05:00 <andythenorth> and I dislike bouncers
10:09:18 <andythenorth> we should be able to reverse articulated vehicles
10:09:41 <andythenorth> 'just' map the properties from rear to front
10:10:18 <andythenorth> it's probably bonkers to do that
10:17:08 <peter1138> TMWFTLB definitely.
10:17:19 <andythenorth> nothing for it, we have to implement liveries :P
10:17:30 <andythenorth> or class 20s all have to be same colour
10:17:38 <peter1138> Now, if it enables underground and elevated pieces, do it.
10:18:14 <andythenorth> how about some kind of broken 'flipped' mode
10:18:20 <andythenorth> so I can set a flag
10:18:27 <andythenorth> and the ctrl-click will flip the flipped bit
10:18:32 <andythenorth> but I have to handle it myself in newgrf
10:19:43 <peter1138> Spec out a new feature?
10:19:44 <andythenorth> or just have one livery
10:20:08 <andythenorth> I wonder if the flipped bit patch is just a one-line 'if'
10:20:14 <andythenorth> and a fork of nml
10:20:25 <andythenorth> maybe I start my own patchpack :x
10:21:05 <peter1138> I don't remember the rationale for disabling it in the first place.
10:21:13 <peter1138> Probably breaks a couple of sets or something :p
10:21:15 <andythenorth> probably vehicle lengths and stuff
10:21:36 <peter1138> That's not feature of articulated parts though
10:21:58 <andythenorth> if you have articulated A-B-C
10:22:04 <andythenorth> and you need A to show graphics for C
10:22:08 <andythenorth> isn't that bonkers?
10:22:23 <andythenorth> it's trivial in newgrf, but for OpenTTD to do that?
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11:47:38 <peter1138> Do I need a set of 24 random minifigs?
12:10:29 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: the %6 vehicle combinations, the only way I can think of to do it is to have a switch for all 6 positions
12:10:42 <andythenorth> I thought there might be a short-cut but can't see it
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12:43:31 * andythenorth can't fix railcar consists
13:04:44 <peter1138> Let's call them convois, like in Simutrans.
13:06:27 <andythenorth> is it better? o_O
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13:10:53 <andythenorth> % 6 has problems with train of length 7
13:11:01 <andythenorth> I guess I need to subtract something somewhere
13:12:42 <andythenorth> I am trying to make a better pattern for supermop and Pikka
13:12:45 <andythenorth> they haz feature request
13:15:31 <andythenorth> it has rules up to length 6, then needs to repeat them
13:15:38 <andythenorth> but that fails, because I can't maths
13:17:27 <andythenorth> I need to subtract or divide something in the first switch
13:18:45 <andythenorth> someone should implement Eddi-as-a-service
13:35:08 <peter1138> andythenorth, just make it all the same and rely on the user to flip ;)
13:41:32 * andythenorth figured out a solution
13:41:37 <andythenorth> but it needs another switch
13:42:12 <peter1138> ctrl-click toggle switch :D
13:43:34 <andythenorth> count number of times flipped :p
13:44:41 <peter1138> use the old multihead flag ;)
13:48:01 <andythenorth> tried that once, it's weird, can't remember why
13:48:36 <andythenorth> delete default flipping, allow ctrl-click to increment a count, 0-15
13:48:41 <andythenorth> all madness supported
13:48:44 <peter1138> there's restrictions on places and stuff. it's just awkward.
13:48:58 <peter1138> hidden features eh?
13:49:00 <andythenorth> flipping is then % 2 count
13:49:18 <andythenorth> up to 16 'liveries' or other madness
13:50:41 <peter1138> What was the issue with cargo subtypes again, other than it appearing un "refit cargo"
13:51:06 <andythenorth> it isn't reliable with auto-replace
13:51:20 <andythenorth> and there are 'bugs'
13:51:32 <andythenorth> that aren't bugs at all, unless you're trying to use it for livery and stats hacks
13:51:48 <peter1138> yes, for changing stats it can mess things up
13:51:58 <peter1138> but for just visuals, not really.
13:53:12 <andythenorth> also engines don't have a cargo
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14:24:02 <peter1138> "These things don't work right when a grf does strange things, therefore I won't use it at all when designing my grf" ?
14:31:00 <andythenorth> you mean why won't I use subtypes? o_O
14:33:30 <_dp_> #if defined(ENABLE_NETWORK)
14:47:20 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no, the %6 is not for position in consist, the %6 is for total length
14:48:03 <andythenorth> so I am learning
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14:54:35 <Eddi|zuHause> so you then branch into 6 special cases: total length of 6n+0, 6n+1, 6n+2 ... 6n+5
14:55:08 <Eddi|zuHause> in each one of these you also have the possibility to further branch off if the total length is <6 or >6
14:55:23 <Eddi|zuHause> so you can have one case for 1, and another for 7,13,...
14:55:39 <andythenorth> I can't branch for > 6
14:55:48 <andythenorth> I am slicing out multiples of 6
14:55:54 <andythenorth> I'm just really bad at basic maths
14:56:37 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you are a good luck charm :P
14:57:18 <andythenorth> I suspect it can be reduced somewhere
15:00:12 <Eddi|zuHause> bonus points if you can make it symmetric from the middle :p
15:00:35 <Eddi|zuHause> so 7 will be 2+3+2 :p
15:02:04 <andythenorth> I thought about going to 9 or so
15:02:52 <Eddi|zuHause> nah, don't worry about it
15:03:45 <andythenorth> I could store temp the repeated calculation
15:03:51 <Eddi|zuHause> position_in_vehid_chain - (position_in_vehid_chain - (position_in_vehid_chain % 6)) <-- that's just "position_in_vehid_chain % 6"
15:04:59 <_dp_> can I use "auto" in patch? i.e. is openttd fully c++11?
15:08:29 <_dp_> damn, it won't help anyway :(
15:10:19 <_dp_> can't use undefined type even if code is unreached when it's not defined
15:12:09 * _dp_ learning how to do macroses
15:16:20 <Eddi|zuHause> man, now i'm hungry
15:18:04 <Eddi|zuHause> sounds like a beer brand waiting to happen
15:27:16 <_dp_> how do I make macro out of stuff like that? auto x = foo(); return x == NULL ? NULL : x->bar;
15:27:47 <_dp_> and considering it's probably not a good idea to put return in macro
15:29:09 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: reduced that thanks
15:32:24 <_dp_> I can do (foo() == NULL ? NULL : foo()->bar) and hope compilers are smart enough to optimize that by doesn't look too good of an idea
15:34:01 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think compilers will optimize that unless foo is inline
15:34:05 <LordAro> _dp_: i'd be very surprised if there was anything particularly wrong with that
15:34:46 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, afaik inline is pretty much meaningless nowdays
15:35:03 <Eddi|zuHause> how would a compiler detect whether foo has side effects?
15:35:26 <Eddi|zuHause> potentially foo is only known at link time anyway
15:35:42 <Eddi|zuHause> and that is far beyond most optimizations
15:36:05 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, does inline even guarantee there are no side-effects?
15:36:32 <Eddi|zuHause> but if it's inline the compiler can see the effects
15:37:38 <Eddi|zuHause> on the other hand, the order of execution in that expression is probably undefined, so side effects will be very wrong anyway
15:37:48 <andythenorth> I think I stay off forums a bit
15:39:08 <LordAro> what have you done now
15:39:14 <andythenorth> Pikka: what's better: 2 liveries, choose by flipping; n liveries, chosen according to consist major cargo; just 1 livery, live with it ???
15:39:33 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, how can it even be undefined? it's a bloody if :p
15:39:51 <Pikka> I like choose by cargo / year / random / other things the player has no control over
15:40:07 <andythenorth> LordAro: acs121 is about 12, and I have to remember not be annoyed :|
15:40:13 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: it's C, things are undefined in ways beyond imagination :p
15:40:15 <Pikka> makes it simpler, and you're not relying on players stumbling on mechanics to show off all your sprites :P
15:42:04 <andythenorth> and not limited to 2
15:42:10 <andythenorth> although limits are nice
15:42:13 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: assume that 99% of players never even find the feature of flipping
15:42:34 <andythenorth> I know, but it doesn't worry me
15:42:40 <andythenorth> the default sprite will be good
15:42:49 <andythenorth> 99% of mac users never touch the terminal
15:43:38 <andythenorth> but if flipping was good for engine liveries, I'd probably have done it already :P
15:44:08 <andythenorth> it's implemented, I just didn't get motivated to do the sprites
15:47:01 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, fortunately expressions are well-defined even in random execution languages like whenever :p
15:48:46 <andythenorth> are the liveries all just a bit 1990s British Rail?
15:48:54 <andythenorth> does it work for NARS-horse?
15:49:59 <Pokka> no yellow ends, perfect for narshorse ;)
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16:06:02 <andythenorth> still triggers single unit at 7
16:06:14 <andythenorth> can't be arsed to handle that :)
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16:26:22 <_dp_> damn, two hours to write python's getattr in c++ xD
16:27:07 <Eddi|zuHause> sounds like something where it would be useful to use somone else's code
16:28:29 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, not rly since it's impossible to do in general :p
16:30:48 <_dp_> couldn't even avoid having return in macros
16:31:42 <_dp_> but guess that's fine since there are already plenty of return macros throughout the code
16:32:28 <Alberth> look for a code generator that gives you reflection
16:41:49 <Eddi|zuHause> or use hashmaps (which is what python does anyway)
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16:44:12 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, well, I would need to convert NetworkClientInfo to hashmap then :p
16:44:54 <Eddi|zuHause> well, i really don't know what you're doing, but it sounds wrong...
16:45:55 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, basically, just trying to use NetworkClientInfo when it's not defined without bloody ifdefs everywhere
16:46:23 <Eddi|zuHause> well, i really don't know what you're doing, but it sounds wrong...
16:48:22 <Eddi|zuHause> like you've already taken too many steps down the wrongness-fractal, trace back up, and need to rethink on a more fundamental level what you're trying to do
16:52:13 <Eddi|zuHause> just comment it out? return dummy info?
16:52:24 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, and it would actually work as it is if only it did compile
16:52:47 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, you mean create dummy NetworkClientInfo structure?
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16:53:56 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, something like that
16:54:32 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, macro seems a better solution to me
16:54:57 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, also will still have to do smth with string in GetName
16:56:07 <Eddi|zuHause> why can't all these functions just "{#ifdef WITHOUT_NETWORK} return NULL; {#else} ..."?
16:57:23 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, a lot of code duplication?
16:58:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i still don't understand what you're trying to achieve
17:04:16 <Eddi|zuHause> so, why can't this be a template function?
17:05:46 <Eddi|zuHause> or override operator-> to handle this==NULL?
17:07:03 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: i feel like this code is trying to be too clever for its own good
17:07:38 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, well, I don't see how are you going to do the same with either of your solutions
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17:07:51 <Eddi|zuHause> to reduce some spurious code duplication, you go a step too far towards complexity
17:08:38 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, not to mention overriding operators is much worse of a complication
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17:11:28 <Eddi|zuHause> while that may technically be true, at least you stay within the language, while using macros means you're doing stuff outside the language
17:13:04 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, some languages not even allow overriding operators by design considering how many issues it arises
17:13:38 <Eddi|zuHause> i didn't say it's a good solution...
17:13:47 <_dp_> also part of the reasons some people prefer c to c++
17:14:03 <Alberth> some languages try to prtotect proggrammers from themselves and fail miserably
17:14:16 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, well, it's not even a solution since you have different null value types
17:14:19 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd still lean towards defining the appropriate types when networking is not defined
17:15:09 <Eddi|zuHause> or, putting the whole file in #ifdef
17:15:16 <Eddi|zuHause> damn the duplication
17:15:23 <Eddi|zuHause> it's much clearer what's going on
17:15:38 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, I don't think GS will be happy with conditional API
17:17:02 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: correct me if i'm wrong, but the whole issue is the "FindClientInfo" function?
17:17:23 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, networkclients could techically work without network but that would be refactoring a lot of networknig code
17:18:10 <Eddi|zuHause> so you just put that in #ifdef, and the #else you put a dummy function that just returns NULL?
17:18:32 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, not function by itself, that could go in ifdefs, but using it
17:18:52 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, you can't use undefined type
17:19:00 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, even in unreachable code
17:19:10 <Eddi|zuHause> no, but you could return a void* or something
17:19:24 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, you cant have ->attr on void*
17:20:35 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, if only compiler could check if(_networking) in compile time there wouldn't even be a problem
17:20:41 <_dp_> but that's too much to ask from c++
17:20:59 <Eddi|zuHause> ok, so the other function bodies also need some #ifdef
17:21:20 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, yeah, ifdefs everywhere, that would work
17:21:41 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds much cleaner than your crazy macro there
17:25:41 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, on macro scale that's not ever close to crazy :p
17:26:07 <_dp_> does "Advertised: NO" not show advertised servers on lan?
17:33:30 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, missed a "GET_"
17:36:04 <Eddi|zuHause> speaking of which, isn't the line "return (FindClientInfo(client) == NULL ? client : CLIENT_INVALID);" backwards?
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17:37:52 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, how's that any better than my macros?
17:38:12 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, like I can throwout do while and use FindClientInfo too
17:38:18 <Eddi|zuHause> <_dp_> does "Advertised: NO" not show advertised servers on lan? <-- the "advertised" setting is for whether you want your server to be visible for everybody. it will show up in LAN anyway, and people can access it from outside if they know your IP
17:38:52 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, yeah, I noticed that's backwards too
17:40:42 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: can you explain to me again why we can't define the NetworkClientInfo structure outside the #ifdef in the header?
17:43:09 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, and what to do with its methods?
17:43:39 <_dp_> which probably won't work --without-networking easily
17:44:56 <Eddi|zuHause> we don't need the pool or the function
17:45:00 <Eddi|zuHause> just the structure
17:45:09 <_dp_> what I don't rly undestand here is who the hell even needs openttd --without-networking ?
17:45:11 <Eddi|zuHause> so syntactically you can do ->attr
17:45:38 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, you also need NetworkClientInfo::GetByClientID
17:45:40 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: this is mostly for crazy platforms like DOS or something
17:46:53 <Alberth> make a baseclass for the interface, and 2 classes with implementation?
17:47:39 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, omg, and was there anyone who actually tried to use openttd on dos in last 10 years?
17:48:08 <Eddi|zuHause> people do weird stuff like that all the time
17:48:57 <Eddi|zuHause> afair, it never even worked in actual DOS, just in dosbox
17:56:28 <peter1138> 16:45 < _dp_> what I don't rly undestand here is who the hell even needs openttd --without-networking ?
17:57:08 <peter1138> _dp_, yeah, ugly isn't it.
17:58:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i think it's much better to read, though
17:58:11 <peter1138> Better than the original patch?
17:58:55 <Eddi|zuHause> better than the macro version earlier
17:59:04 <peter1138> --without-network, if it needs to exist, should probably leave the structures and calls intact, and simply just not do any netowrking.
17:59:47 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that's why i said we should define the data type anyway
18:03:57 <_dp_> anyway, dealing with networking stuff seems way out of the scope of this patch
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18:25:32 <Rubidium> getting TCP/IP connections in DOS is not the most trivial thing, so not having to work on that for the DOS port was really useful
18:25:51 <peter1138> Rubidium, problem is the ENABLE_NETWORK stuff is very invasive.
18:26:10 <peter1138> If it could touch just the network code it would be better.
18:27:59 <Rubidium> it's not that the case I give is a really sensible one ;)
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18:37:55 <_dp_> * 1.8.0 is not yet released. The following changes are not set in stone yet.
18:38:16 <LordAro> someone didn't follow the release checklist closely enough
18:42:29 <_dp_> hm, GetJoinedDate or GetJoinDate?
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18:59:13 <frosch123> LordAro: i always only merge the changelog changes once a year before the next branch
18:59:18 <frosch123> it's just less work
18:59:53 <frosch123> _dp_: GetJoinDate imo
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19:18:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think i figured out how to play CK II yet :/
19:25:32 <Wolf01> Meh, I forgot what I started the PC for...
19:25:46 <frosch123> for looking at lego photos?
19:25:56 <Wolf01> Nah, already on the phone
19:26:04 <_dp_> frosch123, not sure if I need to click smth or not but I'm done with your review
19:26:43 <Wolf01> I'll netflix, it will come in mind
19:39:18 <peter1138> Hmm, right, how to make a GUI these days :p
19:49:05 <frosch123> would you still know how it was done in the old days?
20:00:49 <_dp_> is there a way to get older version of GS from bananas?
20:01:44 <frosch123> maybe as dependency of a scenario
20:02:35 <_dp_> well, I got it as a dependency of savegame but didn't work
20:03:28 <_dp_> though it actually seems to request even newer version than bananas has
20:04:14 <_dp_> dbg: [script] The savegame has an GameScript by the name 'Simpleton's City Builder', version 11 which is no longer available.
20:22:07 <Eddi|zuHause> well, can't request something from bananas which was never there
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20:24:05 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, don't think that's the case
20:24:44 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, I'd rather believe that newer version reports lower version number
20:25:16 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, or savegame is just fucked up because it's kinda weird...
20:25:35 <Eddi|zuHause> well i can't really help you in any case
20:28:17 <Eddi|zuHause> can anyone tell me how CkII battles work? i had bigger army, and good generals, and suddenly half of my army retreats from battle?
20:31:39 <supermop> maybe they had dorkier uniforms?
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20:44:10 <peter1138> Hmm, do we have any docs about what string codes there are?
20:46:08 <peter1138> Don't think I have access to that.
20:48:20 <frosch123> though that list intentionally misses the pictogram-chars
20:48:31 <frosch123> since noone knows whether they should be removed or kept :)
20:48:59 <frosch123> stuff like {CROSS} {TICK} etc
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21:20:00 <TrueBrain> peter1138: in my opinion, it is (changing title during squash); but that is just me :)
21:20:05 <TrueBrain> just make sure it is according to the coding style :)
21:22:04 <TrueBrain> it also annoys me now I cannot merge a good PR because of the commit message :D
21:24:15 <TrueBrain> the longer we work with GitHub, the more I understand why people use bots to do stuff like merging :)
21:24:25 <TrueBrain> a bot can handle all this work safely
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21:41:34 <peter1138> Hmm, my new livery window works a bit nicer.
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21:49:24 <peter1138> When do grfcodec/nforenum get migrated to git? :)
21:55:15 <LordAro> when someone deems their code acceptable to see the light of day
21:59:30 <frosch123> catcodec, msu, musa, osie, grfcodec, nml, opengfx, opensfx, openmsx, ... where does openttd end and devzone start? :p
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22:00:20 <peter1138> But not necessarily within OpenTTD.
22:02:04 <frosch123> i skipped extra/balancer, extra/compile_farm, extra/pngcodec, extra/strgen, extra/website
22:02:18 <frosch123> no idea whether any of them are still relevant
22:05:30 <Rubidium> I'd reckon the website is still relevant ;)
22:09:01 <frosch123> yes, i missed that one :)
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22:13:08 <andythenorth> Wolf01: remind why we're bad people who banned road downgrading?
22:13:21 <andythenorth> I know it was debated for like 3 weeks or something
22:13:24 <andythenorth> but apparently it's all wrong
22:13:39 <Eddi|zuHause> some nonsense about trying to prevent griefing that won't work anyway?
22:13:43 <Wolf01> What do you find wrong about it?
22:14:20 <andythenorth> not me, my favourite forum poster
22:18:01 <Eddi|zuHause> i thought we established that forum ignore doesn't work?
22:19:44 <andythenorth> what if they're right?
22:23:15 <Wolf01> I think they are right, yes, but I also think that electrification should just be an addition and not a basetype
22:24:05 <Wolf01> BTW, removing the check to allow downgrading roads should be easy
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22:33:23 <andythenorth> what about checking who owns the tile?
22:39:12 <hrmny> if anyone can tell me, or point me to where it's implemented: how does openttd make the trains move together, like keeping all the wagons together and making them do the same turns
22:52:21 <frosch123> TrainController probably
22:53:15 <Wolf01> <andythenorth> what about checking who owns the tile? <- that is already as it is, you can do whatever you want with your roads, he is talking about town owned roads
22:54:05 <hrmny> frosch123 ok thx, will take a look, very long file tho
22:54:34 <LordAro> well it is the main feature of the game :p
22:56:24 <frosch123> hrmny: anyway, the front engine moves, and the chain follows. wagon length is limited by the shortest track on a tile (horizontal/vertical), so wagons can directly ask the vehicle in front, whcih track on a tile to use. consists never skip tiles
22:57:28 <hrmny> LordAro doesn't mean you have to do it all in one file, but idk
22:57:38 <hrmny> frosch123 what about very fast trains?
22:57:46 <hrmny> couldn't they in theory skip a tile
22:58:06 <andythenorth> Wolf01: blah blah then imho :)
22:58:14 <LordAro> hrmny: true, but no code is perfect :p
22:58:19 <frosch123> no, they just move many small steps in succession
22:59:14 <hrmny> trying to make my own train game for fun
22:59:39 <frosch123> there is like a half dozen in development already :p
22:59:46 <hrmny> yes, I don't intend to sell it
23:00:00 <andythenorth> should every engine have 2CC on it?
23:00:07 <andythenorth> or is that a foolish consistency?
23:00:36 <frosch123> consistency is boring?
23:01:00 <andythenorth> it's a good baseline
23:01:08 <andythenorth> variation from consistency is good
23:03:03 <frosch123> so, downloadable newgrf presets: is it reasonable to make them not support licence, readme, changelog, ... files? i.e. newgrf presets would only have a name, and always be public domain?
23:04:53 <Wolf01> They are just a link of filenames... no license/readme imho
23:04:55 <andythenorth> seems reasonable
23:05:09 <andythenorth> we'd need an actual license of some kind
23:05:13 <andythenorth> they're still copyright
23:05:35 <Wolf01> The licenses are with grfs themselves
23:06:14 <Wolf01> You should be able to browse the preset list and read all the licenses, a sort of filter on the dlc list
23:06:15 <andythenorth> no the grf preset is also a creative work
23:06:21 <peter1138> It's hardly an original work.
23:06:22 <andythenorth> so it has to be licensed
23:06:46 <andythenorth> I might be wrong
23:06:46 <hrmny> frosch123 do you know how the other wagons ask the vehicles in front?
23:06:53 <andythenorth> using playlists ~= presets
23:07:36 <frosch123> hrmny: TrainController moves them together, they are organised in a linked list
23:08:38 <frosch123> sorry, that question is too unspecific :)
23:09:06 <hrmny> like rn I have the trains in sections, but don't know how to tell all segments to take a turn on after the other
23:09:40 <frosch123> just make sure that the wagon in front is at most one section ahead
23:09:55 <hrmny> only thing I came up with is to keep a list of turns a section should take
23:09:57 <Wolf01> andythenorth: if you are the author of the grfs and make a preset then it's your "album" and you might be able to license it (or not), if you are just a guy which loves to play with a set of different grfs and want to ease other players to setup it, then it's a playlist/preset and shouldn't be licensed, the best you can do is having your name on the upload
23:10:00 <frosch123> when a wagon reaches the end of a section it enter the start of the section of the wagon in front
23:10:05 <hrmny> and when the front one turns, push it on the next one
23:11:19 <andythenorth> Wolf01: I would anticipate that some contributors will disagree
23:11:30 <andythenorth> they might be wrong, so we should get them to click some box :P
23:11:37 <andythenorth> such legal mumbo jumbo
23:12:37 <Wolf01> So I want a license on my screenshots, now what?
23:12:39 <hrmny> frosch123 are the wagon in openttd always less than one track long?
23:13:42 <frosch123> yes, that's the first thing i mentioned :p
23:14:35 <frosch123> "equal" is also still valid, but trains cannot skip tracks between wagons
23:15:17 <frosch123> it's also important to prevent removing track while a train drives on them :p
23:15:36 <glx> too long wagons will probably have graphic glitches anyway
23:15:42 <andythenorth> Wolf01: forums will have a license clause somewhere in ToS
23:15:44 <frosch123> also, some vehicle sets fake longer wagons, by inserting invisible parts between wagons
23:15:46 <andythenorth> for your screenshots
23:16:08 <frosch123> so that the invisible parts keep the train on track
23:16:09 <Wolf01> If I upload them in the forums
23:17:02 <peter1138> I would recommend coming up with a decent method instead of borrowing our kludges :p
23:17:30 <hrmny> does the train get updated from the back to the front?
23:22:31 <Wolf01> andythenorth: https://color.adobe.com does it have any specific license? I found mentions about the services and shared content, but it's really generic
23:27:21 <Eddi|zuHause> hrmny: i'm fairly sure it's front to back
23:27:35 <andythenorth> 3.2 Licenses to Your Content in Order to Operate the Services. We require certain licenses from you to your content to operate and enable the Services. When you upload content to the Services, you grant us a non-exclusive, worldwide, royalty-free, sub-licensable, and transferrable license to use, reproduce, publicly display, distribute, modify (so as to better showcase your content, for example), publicly perform,
23:27:36 <andythenorth> and translate the content as needed in response to user driven actions (such as when you choose to store privately or share your content with others). This license is only for the purpose of operating or improving the Services.
23:27:41 <andythenorth> bblah blah legal blah
23:28:01 <Eddi|zuHause> hrmny: you need to know how far the front engine actually managed to move (red signal, etc.), in order to decide how far the wagons move
23:28:35 <hrmny> but couldn't the front one move over the tile then before the next one gets to check?
23:30:20 <Wolf01> andythenorth: yes, I've read that part, but it applies to everything, and that's to make the system work, not giving the user a license to do anything
23:30:53 <Wolf01> You might be able to sell colour presets, but with what license?
23:31:21 <Wolf01> In OTTD it's everything easier, you don't sell content with bananas
23:32:11 <Wolf01> The only "license" you need for presets is that you can upload it, edit, and remove it
23:32:32 <peter1138> I think it's dumb to even consider licenses for it.,
23:33:13 <Wolf01> Also you don't even do it as a work, as you don't want to be the curator :>
23:36:13 <andythenorth> GL dealing with the drama :P
23:36:21 <andythenorth> DMCA takedown anyone?
23:36:33 <peter1138> For a preset list. Are you mad?
23:36:44 <andythenorth> we have form on this
23:36:45 <Wolf01> Also since a preset is contained with every savegame which uses grfs, when you share a savegame/scenario you already share a preset, prior art?
23:37:29 <andythenorth> peter1138: I don't have to be, we have contribtors who do that for us
23:39:35 <Eddi|zuHause> the "license" for presets should be in the bananas TOS
23:40:39 <andythenorth> it's not currently
23:40:56 <andythenorth> but this is what I'm trying to explain :P
23:41:04 <andythenorth> thanks Eddi|zuHause :)
23:42:16 <Wolf01> Eddi the lightbringer :P
23:42:56 <andythenorth> current ToS is really specific to the current content
23:43:12 <andythenorth> so specific it would need updating
23:43:34 <andythenorth> usual legal bollocks, and we don't even have a fork yet :P
23:50:28 <peter1138> Oh god. I could just steal the regular livery window, and include all the livery classes for groups :p
23:53:27 <peter1138> Gets tricky with what "Default" means.
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