IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2018-04-15
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00:00:09 <TrueBrain> in English it doesnt do anything really :)
00:00:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i find myself using , in a lot of places other people would use .
00:01:11 <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes i go back over sentences changing some , into .
00:01:34 <LordAro> i've found myself using far too many , as well
00:01:38 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no real use for ;
00:01:59 <TrueBrain> the use of ,is far more strict than I would like; hence the ; :D
00:02:11 <LordAro> most people would say the opposite :p
00:02:12 <TrueBrain> (a typical case where I could have used it in Dutch .. dammit!)
00:02:33 <frosch123> i approve any excessive use of ;
00:02:36 <TrueBrain> I leave LordAro making tons of grammar fixes for a bit :)
00:03:07 <TrueBrain> let me know when you are done :)
00:03:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't really care about other people's rules for , then :p
00:03:39 <TrueBrain> in Dutch the , is even worse. Everything between two , you should be able to remove, without the lose of context
00:03:44 <TrueBrain> basically it means you can never use it :P
00:03:52 <TrueBrain> you can only use it to shit on things
00:04:57 <TrueBrain> I do like to use words in these text that are less common
00:05:06 <TrueBrain> I managed to get quiet a few in there
00:05:15 <TrueBrain> most happy with 'ample' in the right context :)
00:05:42 <TrueBrain> I love languages; which is ironic, as I am dyslectic :D
00:09:44 <TrueBrain> 9500 characters .. I might have overdone this :P
00:19:26 <andythenorth> mine was less though ;)
00:19:33 <TrueBrain> yours is included! :P
00:20:15 <andythenorth> save chars, remove it :)
00:20:33 <andythenorth> it will all be done when I wake eh?
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00:23:01 <LordAro> TrueBrain: oki, i'm done
00:23:14 <LordAro> had a friend who's recently finished their PhD look over it :)
00:23:20 <LordAro> lots of proofreading there
00:28:49 <TrueBrain> how to post on the frontpage ....
00:32:19 <TrueBrain> frosch123: it is done
00:35:37 <TrueBrain> achievement unlocked
00:35:49 <TrueBrain> but I am sure it has to be one
00:36:22 <frosch123> does twitter audience care?
00:36:26 <TrueBrain> I wonder when/if this will be picked up by news
00:36:35 <Eddi|zuHause> we have a twitter audience?
00:36:54 <TrueBrain> haha, no, not that :D
00:37:10 <TrueBrain> OpenTTD used to be a lot on tweakers.net, popular dutch site
00:37:18 <TrueBrain> always curious if/how fast news travels
00:37:36 <TrueBrain> but haven't seen 1.8 announcement .. so I guess the relation got a bit cold :)
00:37:56 <TrueBrain> owh, I just missed it
00:38:03 <GT> After last Gentoo emerge I cannot connect to any multiservers anymore, could it be because revision is 1.8.0-RC1 and not 1.8.0?
00:38:05 <frosch123> i wore the starcraft and factorio shirts at work, only one guy (different ones) recognised them
00:38:30 <Eddi|zuHause> GT: 1.8.0-RC1 is something very different from 1.8.0
00:38:31 <TrueBrain> you have the wrong type of work :)
00:38:44 <TrueBrain> 1.8.0-RC1 is, as the name suggests, not the same as 1.8.0
00:38:46 <Eddi|zuHause> GT: only by installing the correct version
00:38:49 <TrueBrain> so changing the rev is not sufficient
00:38:55 <TrueBrain> you have to upgrade to 1.8.0
00:39:17 <TrueBrain> (RC stands for Release Candidate; it is not meant for public release)
00:39:23 <Eddi|zuHause> GT: we check for exact version match for a reason
00:40:02 <GT> Yes, but Gentoo portage does not offer that
00:40:09 <Eddi|zuHause> GT: because even tiny changes (probably) make it incompatible for multiplayer purposes
00:40:16 <TrueBrain> I guess your next visit will be to the Gentoo maintainer chat channel :)
00:40:31 <TrueBrain> (or you can try our generic binaries on the website!)
00:40:41 <TrueBrain> or, of course, compile it yourself... that is what emerge does anyway :D
00:42:07 <GT> Well, I have a parallel version that I svn up to to the nightlies, I suppose compiling 180 should not be more difficult
00:42:34 <frosch123> today is our twitter anniversary
00:42:46 <TrueBrain> frosch123: PARTY!!!! :D
00:42:58 <TrueBrain> hmm, maybe better to pick the tag
00:43:19 <LordAro> should just be git checkout 1.8.0
00:44:43 <Eddi|zuHause> git is like "WAAAH YOU HAVE A DETACHED HEAD!!!"
00:44:49 <ST2> I've used it... only asking to confirm xD
00:44:58 <TrueBrain> doesnt that confirm it on its own :D :)
00:45:16 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: that is how I role .. with a detached head :D
00:46:24 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, for the past ~whatever years my openttd complains that "weekly" is not a valid value for autosave... i should maybe fix that at some point? :p
00:46:54 <GT> Thanks TB, I'll manage to compile it. But it would not hurt to trigger Gentoo nontheless, seems they only provide test version anyway.
00:47:21 <TrueBrain> sadly we have little influence on what downstream maintainers do :(
00:48:19 <TrueBrain> indeed seems they often don't pick up our stables
00:48:21 <GT> I always have to package.accept_keywords it
00:50:07 <Eddi|zuHause> my openttd checkout names are weird... "cargodist" "cargodist-old" "cargodist-halfold"
00:50:35 <TrueBrain> right, off to bed; night!
00:52:22 <Eddi|zuHause> so, as far as i can tell, the weekly autosave is from a game i played in 2011
01:09:19 <frosch123> haha, this time twitter located my login to some 20k inhabitants-town even further away than the usual nuremberg
01:09:27 <frosch123> but at least i learn some geography that way
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05:01:37 <arahael> any openttd ports to ipad, by chance?
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07:57:30 <Alberth> arahael: Apple considers GPL-based software evil, and does not allow it on its store etc
08:20:15 <arahael> Alberth: I heard that - seems to be a controversal topic.
08:21:12 <arahael> Alberth: I hear mixed reports there, and apparently the actual agreement doesn't mention the GPL specifically. (I still need to read it)
08:21:20 <Alberth> openttd with loads of other gpl-based software was added in the beginning, and at one day, apple removed it because "not compatible with our TOS"
08:22:06 <Alberth> I never actually read it
08:22:24 <Alberth> Apple is too closed source for me to ever consider buying anything from them
08:22:34 <arahael> The actual approval/removal on the app store does seem to... Vary, to put it mildly.
08:23:02 <arahael> Yeah, lets not go there. :)
08:23:16 <arahael> They make nice devices, but apple aren't a computing platform.
08:23:28 <arahael> Even if they are - technically - computers, they might as well not be.
08:23:48 <Alberth> the crap is that users don't expect that apple controls what software they can run
08:24:01 <Alberth> so they come here, and ask why etc
08:24:45 <arahael> Just tell it was added, but they got removed as apple didn't like it. :)
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08:25:05 <Alberth> likely there is a discussion with more details on the forum
08:25:32 <arahael> Yeah, honestly I didn't really want to debate about this, I just wanted a simple yes/no answer - and if yes, which one it was. :)
08:26:23 <arahael> Concerning that you say it was specifically removed due to the GPL, though.
08:26:31 <arahael> Because I was hoping that Gnucash could be ported to it.
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08:27:47 <Alberth> you may want to read their tos, the answer should be there
08:27:59 <arahael> Alberth: I intend to.
08:28:16 <arahael> Alberth: Worst case comes to worse: Gnucash could be a source-only install. :)
08:28:30 <arahael> Alberth: And ditto for openttd, if it exists with that port.
08:29:37 <Alberth> given that about 101% of the ipad users can't compile things, that won't do much good :p
08:29:57 <arahael> Alberth: I'm a fairly selfish type of person, I've noticed. ;)
08:30:09 <andythenorth> Apple appear to remove GPL stuff
08:31:03 <arahael> andythenorth: That, if true, is going to be very interesting: It implies that the LGPL licence is also bad... And that you therefore can't use Qt or thel ike without really expensive licenses.
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08:31:09 <Alberth> is ipad even usable for openttd? you need a fast processor for it
08:31:21 <andythenorth> ipad benchmarks are nearly as high as my mac
08:31:24 <SpComb> trains are more fun than apple and GPL
08:31:29 <andythenorth> insane fast for a piece of glass
08:31:42 <arahael> Alberth: The latest A10/A11 processors are as fast as the intel laptops. It's insane.
08:31:49 <andythenorth> but still a very restricted annoying device
08:31:56 <arahael> Alberth: There are rumours that Apple might be switching to them for their laptops.
08:32:15 <arahael> andythenorth: I actually bought the iPhonef or security reasons - Android is pretty crap there, and is less open than people think.
08:32:16 <andythenorth> the rationale for Apple removing GPL is that App Store ToS violate the GPL
08:32:21 <Alberth> A10/11 are arm processors?
08:32:25 <andythenorth> rather than the other way around
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08:32:45 <arahael> Alberth: Modified ARM, yes. They have additional changes to them, secure enclave, etcetera, along with other speed enchancements.
08:32:54 <arahael> andythenorth: Thanks for that link!
08:33:34 <Alberth> ah, I once owned one of the early arms, and with 8MHz beated a 80386 at 40MHz :)
08:34:18 <Alberth> so yeah, the thing is fast :)
08:34:58 <peter1138> The remaining legacy of British computing success...
08:37:41 <andythenorth> but nobody has open-source cloned Chocks Away eh
08:37:54 <arahael> Woo! Awesome - and she's a woman. :)
08:38:18 <Alberth> andy: I got as far as an empty window at the screen :p
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08:38:48 <Alberth> so a clone exists, it just isn't very playable yet :p
08:39:02 <andythenorth> I could just ask him on LinkedIn if we can ^^
08:40:00 <Alberth> hmm, could be a nice project for playing with a game engine
08:40:42 <Alberth> but need to finish some java first
09:08:04 <Alberth> haha, would be nice, but not me, too much troubled by motion sickness
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09:13:41 <peter1138> I don't get it in seated games, cos I'm seated.
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10:22:06 <TrueBrain> first time CI keeps a PR from happening for the right reasons :D
10:44:33 <TrueBrain> so what is on the agenda today .. owh, yeah, I was going to disable svn access :D
10:45:22 <andythenorth> so when are we getting conveyor belts? o_O
10:45:27 <andythenorth> as a transport type
10:45:51 <TrueBrain> wrong game andythenorth :)
10:45:54 <SpComb> no, power grids. It makes no sense for power
10:45:57 <TrueBrain> V453000 would not appreciate that :D
10:46:05 <SpComb> plants to not produce anything!
10:46:28 <andythenorth> conveyors, power grids, cable cars, etc
10:46:45 <andythenorth> they're implemented as vehicles, but with super hax
10:48:33 <andythenorth> it's conceptually hard and we'd probably get it wrong
10:48:39 <andythenorth> which is why we should try :)
10:48:46 <andythenorth> new ways to wreck stuff
10:48:49 <andythenorth> V453000 would agree
10:49:27 <Alberth> pipe grfs already exist :)
10:49:56 <andythenorth> they have to be used in an interesting way
10:51:24 <andythenorth> transfers at 'pumping stations'
10:53:14 <Alberth> looks good, pity about the depots
10:53:42 <TrueBrain> okay, svn is no longer reachable via svn.openttd.org, but only via svn-archive.openttd.org
10:53:43 <Alberth> hmm, enable breakdowns would emite black smoke from the pipe?
10:54:07 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: good, forwards :)
10:54:46 <TrueBrain> that should at least show all things that still used svn :D
10:54:56 <Alberth> hg patch queues could be imported into git, I guess?
10:55:10 <TrueBrain> git apply <01> <02> <03>
10:55:14 <TrueBrain> possibly even: git apply *
10:55:18 <TrueBrain> never tried more than 1 file :)
10:55:25 <TrueBrain> (best thing about patch queues .. they are patches :D)
10:56:40 <Alberth> probably against old hgs :p but good, seems like the best solution
10:58:13 <TrueBrain> yeah, that is one thing I did find out .. a lot of people have very old patch-sets etc :D
11:00:10 <TrueBrain> is -Werror not in OpenTTD? Hmm .. that makes the CI a bit less useful
11:01:47 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: do you also have CONTRIBUTION.md on some fancy shared-edit site, or do you want comments over IRC? :)
11:02:06 <andythenorth> it's in my github fork
11:02:15 <andythenorth> could just PR it :P
11:02:24 <andythenorth> I am going out in about 2 mins btw
11:02:34 <TrueBrain> he has the world to show
11:02:45 <andythenorth> and other lyrics
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13:21:03 <FLHerne> FWIW: I got shut out of the channel by the user limit yesterday, perhaps it would be a good idea to raise it?
13:21:22 <FLHerne> It's clearly possible to have more than 160 people or so
13:21:34 <FLHerne> Um, now my client says that +l isnt set anymore
13:21:40 <FLHerne> Was there some particular reason?
13:23:51 <peter1138> TrueBrain having fun probably.
13:26:30 <LordAro> FLHerne: it got set to 99 when updating the topic for some reason
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13:55:55 <Alberth> huh, g++ accepts "-dumpversion" ???
13:56:27 <Alberth> gnu dropped their gnu option conventions?
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14:01:37 <andythenorth> ok TB I merged TB's changes here
14:01:38 <Alberth> LordAro: ccache doesn't understand the -dumpversion
14:01:45 <andythenorth> is that structure now correct?
14:01:52 <andythenorth> can just fill out the ALL CAPS BITS?
14:02:46 <Alberth> not sure you can even detect that though, as it redirects the path
14:09:33 <TrueBrain> Alberth: -dumpversion and -dumpspecs has been working since GCC 2.95 or so
14:09:38 <TrueBrain> one ofthe odd ones :)
14:10:35 <TrueBrain> tnx michi_cc, for the comments; was trying to understand what your patch changes that regression failed .. I failed at that :D
14:13:15 <andythenorth> hmm Road Hog vehicles are missing from buy menu
14:13:22 <andythenorth> it's this vehicle expiry stuff again :(
14:13:27 <andythenorth> am I going to remove it for 3rd time?
14:16:11 <andythenorth> the replacement for this truck has an intro date of 1940
14:16:28 <andythenorth> the model life stuff is supposed to keep this one available until the replacement shows up
14:16:40 <andythenorth> what am I doing wrong? o_O
14:17:50 <TrueBrain> okay, upgrading eints .. how can I do this ..
14:18:01 <TrueBrain> wait, doesnt frosch123 have access to the VM? Can I not just tell him to do it? :P
14:18:18 <andythenorth> 1910 intro date, 69 year life, 30 year retire early
14:18:22 <andythenorth> should be gone in 1949
14:18:25 <andythenorth> it's gone in 1939
14:18:35 <frosch123> you did stuff with ansible and told me to not change stuff on the vm since ansible resets everything
14:18:45 <TrueBrain> then I stopped using Ansible :P
14:19:20 <frosch123> is ansible uncool these days?
14:19:30 <andythenorth> Ansible is Ansible
14:19:36 <TrueBrain> just without a test server, it is very difficult
14:19:38 <andythenorth> it's +/-0 on cool
14:19:51 <TrueBrain> and having a second server for OpenTTD neverhas been worth it
14:19:53 <andythenorth> it's dangerous to develop ansible scripts in production :)
14:20:04 <andythenorth> also sun rises in morning :P
14:20:09 <andythenorth> and other obvs. statements
14:20:30 <andythenorth> so why is model life broken then Eddi|zuHause? :(
14:20:41 <TrueBrain> first I have to understand again how eints worked ..
14:22:25 <TrueBrain> you should dockerize it! :D
14:22:51 <Alberth> hmm, configure believes ccache is a compiler
14:23:05 <TrueBrain> ccache is intended to behave like that
14:23:08 <TrueBrain> completely transparent
14:23:16 <TrueBrain> I just installed git
14:23:18 <frosch123> you need to pull there
14:23:35 <andythenorth> ugh, can I not just have a cb on all vehicles, 'vehicle of ID was introduced' :P
14:23:42 <TrueBrain> do I have to worry about all the .bupNN files?
14:23:44 <andythenorth> and then set availability correspondingly
14:24:08 <frosch123> no, eints always keeps 5 backups of everything or so
14:24:23 <andythenorth> hmm no an availability CB could deadlock trivially :P
14:24:25 <TrueBrain> I have 1 change in stable_languages/spanish_MX.txt
14:24:34 <frosch123> yes, i updated that
14:24:44 <TrueBrain> do I need to keep that, or can I just update?
14:25:05 <andythenorth> A is introduced, B retires, A retires because B was retired, B is introduced because A retired boom circular singularity
14:25:23 <frosch123> if it was locally modified at your site, then i also pushed it yesterday
14:25:30 <frosch123> so, pull should give the same
14:25:51 <michi_cc> TrueBrain: How the hell is the regression test supposed to work? I think I found my error, but when I try to run regression locally, I get totally inconsistent and changing results.
14:26:25 <TrueBrain> regression set simply runs some predefined savegame, and runs a bunch of actions on it, knowing the result (given OpenTTD is deterministic if you set the srand)
14:26:35 <frosch123> michi_cc: i think your changes cause a different calls to random(), so everything changes
14:26:50 <TrueBrain> frosch123: how do I update hg again?
14:26:55 <TrueBrain> hg update didnt do anything, neither did hg pull
14:27:13 <TrueBrain> rebase not recognized
14:27:32 <frosch123> does "hg qapplied" say anything?
14:27:37 <frosch123> if empty, then "hg pull -u"
14:27:44 <michi_cc> frosch123: I know that, but I get random pass/fails when just running regression multiple times on *unmodified* trunk.
14:27:57 <TrueBrain> unknown command qapplied
14:28:15 <frosch123> ok, then count that as "empty" :p
14:28:21 <TrueBrain> michi_cc: very odd; I dont have that issue, neither does the CI .. dunno :(
14:28:33 <TrueBrain> repository default not found
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14:28:45 <TrueBrain> I really dont like hg anymore :D
14:29:02 <Alberth> too much git-washed :p
14:29:35 <frosch123> well, can you ping that url :p
14:29:51 <TrueBrain> wget on the URL works
14:30:40 <frosch123> fresh clone also works for me
14:30:53 <TrueBrain> ah, I was trying it under root users; that failed
14:31:00 <TrueBrain> switching to right user gives me certificate error :D
14:31:24 <TrueBrain> let me upgrade the cas
14:31:25 <Alberth> ok, /usr/lib64/ccache/g++ points to /usr/bin/ccache, configure picks up g++, then resolve the real path which gives /usr/bin/ccache, and then tries -dumpversion on it
14:31:43 <TrueBrain> Alberth: what are you trying to do? :)
14:31:57 <TrueBrain> ccache is quiet a niche thing
14:32:05 <TrueBrain> ./configure --with-ccache works out-of-the-box for me btw :)
14:32:35 <Alberth> I don't even explicitly enable it, although fedora puts it in the path first
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14:33:50 <Alberth> that configure line breaks for me
14:34:06 <TrueBrain> do you have a compiler installed? :D
14:34:17 <TrueBrain> (what is the error?)
14:34:22 <Alberth> do you need that??? :p
14:34:28 <TrueBrain> depends on what you want to do :D
14:34:32 <TrueBrain> why do you have ccache installed :P
14:34:41 <Alberth> /usr/bin/ccache: invalid option -- 'd'
14:35:14 <LordAro> is this my realpath stuff still breaking things?
14:35:19 <Alberth> and then some /home/alberth/openttd/play/config.lib: line 1378: [: -lt: unary operator expected as the result is empty string
14:36:04 <TrueBrain> so on Alberth's system ccache took over g++?
14:36:12 <Alberth> apparently with softlinks
14:36:15 <LordAro> i'd suggest it's an issue with your system that it's picking ccache/g++ over actual g++, but it should be handled properly
14:36:38 <Alberth> fedora adds it as default first in the path
14:36:44 <Alberth> if you install ccacje
14:36:56 <TrueBrain> ah .. that is not what I would expect a system to do
14:36:59 <TrueBrain> but that does explain indeed :)
14:38:13 <TrueBrain> the annoying part is, ccache uses "how" you executed it to know what he should run
14:38:17 <TrueBrain> (it is just a thin wrapper)
14:38:33 <TrueBrain> so ccache/gcc symlinks to ccache, but he sess you tried to run ccache/gcc, so it redirects to gcc
14:38:40 <TrueBrain> we now use realpath to find out what things REALLY point to
14:38:42 <TrueBrain> and so it breaks :D
14:38:53 <TrueBrain> so yeah, LordAro, possible your solution breaks more stuff :(
14:39:11 <TrueBrain> you need another way to detect clang :P
14:39:48 <LordAro> PATH=/usr/lib64/ccache/bin/:$PATH ./configure confirmed
14:41:06 <frosch123> can't you use some "--version"
14:41:39 <LordAro> i was going for a simple change
14:41:43 <LordAro> simple change did not work
14:41:46 <TrueBrain> reminds me; frosch123, why doesn't OpenTTD have -Werror? Is there a good reason? It makes the CI a bit less useful :)
14:42:05 <LordAro> easier compatibility with different versions, i imagine
14:42:08 <Alberth> changes are never simple :(
14:42:27 <LordAro> i.e. there's a warning with latest gcc and a different one with latest clang
14:42:42 <TrueBrain> shouldnt both be fixed? :D Or I can add it to the CIs at least?
14:42:53 <frosch123> TrueBrain: i am not aware we have Werror :)
14:43:09 <LordAro> you could pass it in with CFLAGS
14:43:11 <TrueBrain> frosch123: that is what I say .. we don't; so you awareness is correct :)
14:43:11 <frosch123> makefile stuff was always done by rb and sz, now la :)
14:43:13 <LordAro> since they work now :)
14:43:34 <frosch123> oh, i missed the negation
14:44:15 <frosch123> TrueBrain: in that case i think the 9x farm always had tons of warnings
14:44:39 <TrueBrain> okay, so I will just add in the CIs that they should enable it, for those we care about :)
14:44:51 <frosch123> so, imho first get all targets, then see the implications of enabling Werror :)
14:44:53 <peter1138> Just add it always.
14:45:01 <peter1138> Hmm, yeah, maybe that :p
14:45:40 <TrueBrain> okay, updated the eints box .. hopefully that fixes the certificate issues ..
14:46:34 <frosch123> my test vm had jessie, and that was too old
14:46:39 <frosch123> i updated it to stable
14:46:39 <TrueBrain> right, ignored the certificate
14:46:45 <TrueBrain> I have updated eints :D
14:47:50 <frosch123> i have no rights to delete ~transaltors/eints/openttd_lang
14:48:07 <frosch123> do i need to su to translators or something?
14:48:08 <TrueBrain> lets have 1 person working on 1 job :D
14:48:20 <TrueBrain> if me and you both work for the same goal, shit goes wrong real quick :D
14:48:29 <frosch123> aw, i can't backseat work you?
14:48:39 <TrueBrain> only in a shared screen :)
14:48:58 <TrueBrain> and yes, you need to su to translators for any actions
14:49:19 <frosch123> anyway, eints/openttd_lang can be deleted, eints-svn needs to be replaced with a git clone
14:49:42 <TrueBrain> eints-svn is only of the lang folder .. is that also the case for git?
14:49:43 <andythenorth> @calc 1910 + 69 - 8 - 30
14:49:47 <TrueBrain> or do the scripts takes care of that?
14:49:57 <frosch123> TrueBrain: i changed that, the scripts now expect src/lang
14:50:45 <TrueBrain> checkout is running
14:51:51 <TrueBrain> frosch123: anything else?
14:52:05 <frosch123> commit-to-svn.sh and update-from-svn.sh
14:52:19 <TrueBrain> I did update-from- .. so I can run that now, not?
14:52:19 <frosch123> replace all occurences of "svn" with "git"
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14:52:28 <frosch123> i.e. scrript name is now eintsgit.py
14:52:38 <TrueBrain> owh, but eints has to run for that if I remember correctly?
14:52:51 <frosch123> and commands are update-from-git and commit-to-git
14:53:06 <TrueBrain> cool; always happy if things are what I expect them to be :D
14:53:12 <frosch123> yes, it has to run when you run the scripts
14:53:52 <frosch123> you can add a "--dry-run" to "commit-to-git", that will commit but stop before pushing
14:54:11 <TrueBrain> but let me first get eints up and running again ..
14:54:57 <TrueBrain> logs show nothing that helps :(
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14:56:49 <frosch123> do they show anything?
14:56:50 <TrueBrain> can eints not start without openttd_lang folder or something?
14:56:58 <TrueBrain> process starts, and stops immediatly
14:57:11 <TrueBrain> produces no logs as far as I can spot
14:57:33 <frosch123> openttd_lang folder is only temporary
14:58:01 <TrueBrain> let me try the 'run' thingy
14:58:05 <TrueBrain> that seems to take longer to do something
14:58:20 <frosch123> it reads all the data on start, takes like 10 seconds or so
14:58:40 <TrueBrain> ah, no folder to drop the pid file
14:58:40 <frosch123> when it says something about bottle and ctrl-c, it is done
14:59:14 <TrueBrain> again, it outputs NOTHING
14:59:31 <TrueBrain> pid folder didnt help
14:59:58 <TrueBrain> (I hate sysv wrappers)
15:00:33 <TrueBrain> any change sin config.xml needed?
15:01:07 <TrueBrain> okay .. update-from-git finished
15:01:18 <TrueBrain> nothing broke, I think
15:01:24 <TrueBrain> (but also no new strings, so who can tell :D)
15:02:24 <TrueBrain> running commit-to-git with -dry-run
15:02:56 <TrueBrain> where can I see the result for that? :D
15:03:20 <frosch123> in eints-git: git show HEAD
15:03:32 <TrueBrain> can be that there are no changes I guess?
15:03:38 <frosch123> commit-to-git always does a hard reset to origin/master, then adds one commit if something changed
15:03:51 <TrueBrain> so I need a change :D
15:04:16 <TrueBrain> can you see in the interface what is pending btw?
15:04:31 <michi_cc> Still no idea why I can't run regression reliable; let's just use the CI service for that :)
15:04:42 <TrueBrain> michi_cc: what compiler / OS?
15:04:52 <frosch123> german, dutch and french are up-to-date
15:04:55 <TrueBrain> michi_cc: as I also cannot really imagine why it wouldnt .. it is kinda build to be reliable :)
15:05:06 <frosch123> do we speak any other languages? :p
15:05:19 <TrueBrain> frosch123: I am just going to change a string back and forth
15:05:25 <TrueBrain> creates 2 commits I assume :P
15:05:41 <TrueBrain> (where the second resets the first)
15:06:10 <frosch123> it does a hard reset, so there is always only one commit ahead of origin
15:06:29 <TrueBrain> owh, but if I enable login, people can make real changes too
15:06:45 <TrueBrain> but I still have some things to work out .. namely: how is it going to commit, and more importantly, how does it know to update :D
15:07:37 <TrueBrain> what is the update_openttd_langs script doing again?
15:07:39 <michi_cc> TrueBrain: And BTW, you probably didn't find the regression error because you've been looking at the wrong commit :) Off-by-one in the first commit.
15:07:46 <frosch123> TrueBrain: if push notification is too complicated, just make a cronjob :)
15:07:57 <TrueBrain> michi_cc: I was wondering about that, but it looks fine :P
15:08:07 <frosch123> TrueBrain: it creates a shallow clone, and transfers the language defintions from ottd into eints
15:08:31 <frosch123> i..e ottd source is master for language definitions, and that script updates eints
15:08:59 <TrueBrain> ah, yes, it runs every night at 19:00 CE(S)T
15:09:45 <TrueBrain> still impressed by the quality of work here .. no fixes for months, and no complaints either :)
15:10:39 <TrueBrain> trying a commit now .. lets see how it looks ..
15:10:40 <frosch123> on devzone it automaticaly created a ticket when it throws an exception
15:11:10 <TrueBrain> we can make that for OpenTTD: auto-create-issue-on-crash :D
15:11:33 <TrueBrain> lol, commit failed because there is no user.email and user.name set :D
15:12:41 <TrueBrain> frosch123: your commit_user is translator@openttd.org .. isnt it translators? (plural)
15:12:58 <frosch123> i took it from the contacts page
15:13:17 <TrueBrain> its plural in the git log :)
15:13:30 <TrueBrain> yeah .. translator is for questions
15:13:33 <TrueBrain> translators is for the group
15:13:43 <TrueBrain> the commit message no longer mentions eints; intentional?
15:13:58 <frosch123> i had to adjust it for the commit-hook :)
15:14:06 <TrueBrain> that is just the first word :)
15:14:44 <frosch123> anyway, you can change both at the top of the script
15:14:59 <TrueBrain> the first I did, but the commit message is a bit up to you ofc :)
15:15:16 <frosch123> Alberth: do you want explicit advertisement for eints? :)
15:15:59 <TrueBrain> btw, I somehow dislike: Update: Translations. I rather have: Update: translations (lowercase t)
15:16:12 <TrueBrain> Alberth: eints commits used to read: -Update from eints: ...
15:16:17 <TrueBrain> it mentioned it came from eints
15:16:31 <Alberth> oh, don't care about that
15:16:33 <frosch123> now it is "Update: Translations"
15:16:43 <TrueBrain> now it is "Update: translations"
15:16:46 <TrueBrain> fuck that capital T :P
15:17:50 <frosch123> "Update: Translations from eints"?
15:18:05 <TrueBrain> without capital T, sure :)
15:18:29 <TrueBrain> Update: translations (from eints)?
15:18:32 <TrueBrain> Update: translations (via eints)?
15:18:50 <frosch123> via/from i don'T care
15:18:55 <TrueBrain> what is corerct english? :D
15:19:13 <TrueBrain> translations, brought to you by the wonderful system called eints!
15:19:36 <Alberth> couldn't find the right wording for it
15:19:49 <peter1138> Both work. The translations are from eints, but technically it's the translaters doing them, via eints.
15:20:24 <frosch123> andythenorth: i had a tool for that, but never finished it
15:20:28 <TrueBrain> Update: translations from eints
15:20:31 <TrueBrain> for now this will have to do :)
15:20:50 <Alberth> Updated translations from eints ?
15:20:58 <andythenorth> I did degree level engineering maths, but I can't work out the simple arithemtic
15:21:04 <Alberth> oh, not good commit style
15:21:18 <TrueBrain> owh, commit style also says capital after :
15:21:24 <TrueBrain> it is not the start of a new sentence ffs :P
15:21:45 <frosch123> andythenorth: anyway, set retire_early to some percentage of the engine-livetime
15:22:01 <andythenorth> well pikka gave me some numbers
15:22:03 <andythenorth> and they don't work
15:22:09 <andythenorth> and previously eddi gave me numbers
15:22:11 <andythenorth> and they don't work
15:22:14 <frosch123> andythenorth: that way all freshly purchased engines have full reliability, but the very last ones degrade at the end of their lifetime
15:22:23 <andythenorth> reliability I couldn't care less tbh :)
15:22:37 <andythenorth> I need to remove the vehicle from purchase list reliably
15:22:46 <andythenorth> allowing that replacement is random(17)
15:23:00 <andythenorth> which is hard to handle
15:23:10 <andythenorth> in a static property
15:23:14 <frosch123> TrueBrain: commit checker only checks for space after :, not for capital
15:23:35 <TrueBrain> yeah, but the wiki is clear about the capital there :)
15:23:58 <frosch123> i always put a capital there
15:24:06 <TrueBrain> okay .. so that leaves me figuring out how/when to update, and how to make sure it can write
15:24:15 <frosch123> rb switched at some pointer from uppercase to lowercase, which annoyed me when writing the changelog
15:24:28 <TrueBrain> just pick one, and stick with it :)
15:24:37 <frosch123> changelog has all uppercase
15:24:37 <TrueBrain> for now, I think I will just make him update every hour or so
15:26:32 <TrueBrain> is when eints update from git
15:26:45 <TrueBrain> the to-git is harder to test without a change
15:26:50 <TrueBrain> so I need a change! :D
15:27:14 <TrueBrain> frosch123: I assume it just does a push?
15:27:42 <frosch123> also, i pushed the commit-message changes, so you can get rid of the modifies
15:30:49 <TrueBrain> okay .. this should basically "just work"
15:31:18 <TrueBrain> disabled the cron for now, so I can test it out when I am active
15:31:22 <TrueBrain> instead of it happening by acceident :)
15:33:54 <andythenorth> eh it just doesn't work
15:34:34 <andythenorth> a vehicle introduced in 1915, with model life of 44 should retire in 1959
15:34:55 <andythenorth> it retires in 1963
15:35:07 <andythenorth> the docs are wrong
15:35:37 * andythenorth has to read src :|
15:37:10 <TrueBrain> frosch123: tnx a lot, this all seems to work nicely :)
15:37:21 <TrueBrain> frosch123: can you look at the README.md pull request? It seems good/complete to me
15:38:53 <andythenorth> e->duration_phase_2 = GB(r, 5, 4) + ei->base_life * 12 - 96;
15:39:01 <andythenorth> r seems to be random bits
15:39:20 <andythenorth> is the length of phase 2 randomised?
15:40:00 <andythenorth> maybe I wait Eddi, you are all busy with more important stuff
15:40:59 <andythenorth> maybe I have to account for phase 1 as well
15:44:19 <andythenorth> src so much better than docs :)
15:44:27 * andythenorth could probably help fix that :P
15:47:44 <andythenorth> hmm nope, still broken
15:48:32 <Alberth> 4 bits, starting at bit 5 ?
15:50:02 <andythenorth> so it's base_life - 8 + random(8)
15:50:10 <Alberth> so, 'base_life' years, minus 8 year, +/- 8 months
15:50:31 <Alberth> oh, sorry, + 0..16 months
15:50:38 <andythenorth> trying to retire vehicles is ~ waste of time imho
15:51:09 <andythenorth> the only safe way to do it is leave them around for a very long time
15:51:13 <andythenorth> in which case, why both?
15:51:16 <Alberth> just make base_life long enough :)
15:51:30 <andythenorth> then they don't disappear from buy menu for a very long time
15:51:34 <andythenorth> seems pointless :)
15:51:43 <andythenorth> doesn't help the player at all
15:52:03 <Alberth> I always hide vehicles that have become obsolete
15:52:16 <andythenorth> that hide button is very helpful
15:53:11 <Alberth> just make it equal to the time until the next vehicle?
15:53:35 <andythenorth> I added 1 for safety
15:53:41 <andythenorth> and some other offsets 'for safety'
15:54:21 <Alberth> if you don't want retirement, enable 'never expires' :)
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15:55:02 <Alberth> the alternative is the V approach, set it to 255 years :)
15:57:36 <TrueBrain> NO! BAD andythenorth! NO! No takebacks! BAD! :)
15:57:56 <frosch123> TrueBrain: readme looks good
15:58:13 <frosch123> some stuff is always outdated, but from a markdown point of view i like it
15:58:34 <TrueBrain> okay; I will take it up with him to get his PR mergeable :)
15:59:02 <frosch123> i would like if the commit would contain a "git mv readme README.md"
15:59:06 <frosch123> so the history is kept
15:59:28 <TrueBrain> how wouldnt it otherwise?
15:59:39 <TrueBrain> owh, euh, I see what you mean
15:59:43 <TrueBrain> git figures these things mostly out himself
15:59:49 <TrueBrain> git mv rarely really does anything :P
15:59:56 <TrueBrain> git rm and git add has the same result :P
16:00:14 <TrueBrain> but yeah, lets see if we can get the author do just that :)
16:05:19 <TrueBrain> frosch123: these are the moments I wish I could just bypass the commit-message check and squash the whole commit; take the git complexity away from the author .. but I can see that go wrong real quick in other situations, so I tried to ask the author :D
16:06:29 <frosch123> funnily you can break the rules by entering a bad message when squashing :p
16:06:52 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: we need CONTRIBUTION :P
16:06:57 <TrueBrain> agentw4b: your issue report is way too short :(
16:10:01 <TrueBrain> basically, just repeating the title is rarely a good bug report :)
16:10:30 <TrueBrain> what version are you running, do you have an example snippet, what did you do, what did you expect, screenshot, anything more basically :)
16:39:41 <_dp_> I'll do PRs for my patches someday so no need to bother with those I guess
16:45:39 <_dp_> what's the point of "good first issue" on a patch?
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16:48:53 <frosch123> the hope is that someone else does the work :)
16:49:20 <frosch123> oh, on a patch... no idea
16:51:38 <_dp_> well, I guess it's a good first issue to learn how to do PR xD
16:56:17 <andythenorth> forgot the game has level crossings :P
17:01:04 <TrueBrain> I put some good-first-issues on very small existing patches
17:01:11 <TrueBrain> that someone needs to pickup and make a PR out of :)
17:01:36 <TrueBrain> frosch123: what prefix for the README stuff?
17:01:41 <TrueBrain> (in commit message)
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17:03:22 <tyteen4a03> Are there any plans to bring 64bit builds to osx?
17:05:02 <TrueBrain> good question; we are cross compiling for OSX, which is sub-optimal
17:05:07 <frosch123> Doc, Update, Change, all fine
17:05:10 <TrueBrain> hopefully we can get it to work, but .....
17:05:13 <TrueBrain> frosch123: k k :) Tnx
17:05:26 <TrueBrain> tyteen4a03: so if you have any experience with cross compiling and Docker :D
17:05:50 <tyteen4a03> I have experience in docker but not for cross-compliation unfortunately
17:07:25 <andythenorth> can I switch my local compile to 64bit?
17:07:54 <TrueBrain> btw, I do need the 10.12 sdk and 10.13 sdk (does 10.14 exist?)
17:08:17 <TrueBrain> I used to have a Mac so I could do that myself ... but not anymore :D
17:09:04 <andythenorth> I probably have them somewhere
17:09:42 <TrueBrain> owh, he made it possible to do it on Linux these days
17:09:48 <TrueBrain> means I only need Xcode with those SDKs in there :)
17:10:00 <TrueBrain> so nevermind, I can do this :D
17:10:07 <TrueBrain> if I remember my AppleID...
17:12:34 <TrueBrain> I wonder if you can run OSX on XenServer these days .. that would solve so much :D
17:14:00 <TrueBrain> last time it all worked, except for the clock .. it went too quick :D
17:14:13 <andythenorth> seems VMWare can host virtualised OS X allegedly
17:15:09 <_dp_> TrueBrain, btw, is it still not possible to use your compile farm for our patchpack?
17:16:12 <_dp_> I'm so fed up compiling it myself that even skipped 1.7.2 xD
17:17:43 <_dp_> if I use your docker containers, does it at least compile for windows?
17:20:22 <LordAro> not sure how patches/patchpacks could work through bananas
17:20:32 <LordAro> there would have to be some sort of intermediate launcher program
17:20:46 <frosch123> there is a details section after the summary
17:21:01 <LordAro> i'd read all of that except the last sentence :p
17:22:47 <andythenorth> frosch123: no changes from me
17:22:54 <andythenorth> I wonder if we really need a moderator layer
17:24:45 <frosch123> someone who crawls through all stuff and assigned labels consistently
17:29:26 <frosch123> also the option to comment may open gates to hell
17:29:28 <andythenorth> which python framework shall we try next? o_O
17:31:17 <_dp_> andythenorth, which have you tried?
17:36:49 <andythenorth> zope, pyramid, bottle, and very very briefly, django
17:39:41 <_dp_> andythenorth, flask then :p
17:42:23 <_dp_> though I almost have my own one on top of it already xD
17:43:32 <andythenorth> that's kind of the point :P
17:46:57 <Alberth> I wonder about presets without versions
17:47:24 <Alberth> technically one may want to have some form of range of versions, but that may be too complicated
17:47:57 <Alberth> "major version" would be likely useful?
17:49:12 <andythenorth> I change grfid when changing major version
17:49:15 <andythenorth> dunno about others
17:49:49 <_dp_> damn, got an unexpected problem doing PRs... I forgot C++ xD
17:50:06 <Alberth> but having a version for everything, and a 63 entries long grf list explodes a bit
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17:58:29 <Alberth> preset is now a list of grf filenames + parameter settings, it seems
17:58:50 <Alberth> no version whatsoever, unless you parse the filename
18:02:15 <frosch123> i would not think that you download multiple versions of a preset
18:02:31 <frosch123> it's more about offering a version that matches your version of ottd
18:03:01 <Alberth> I mean version of grfs
18:03:49 <frosch123> well, they have a md5sum
18:03:57 <frosch123> you can update them in-game
18:04:02 <Alberth> "...usually contain updated references to the NewGRF versions." <-- if all 63 entries change regularly, the number of preset files explodes
18:04:08 <frosch123> just that noone knows whether the parameters still work the same :)
18:06:31 <Alberth> so you can make a preset with some grf names and a non-existing md5sum, and in ottd you can update?
18:07:48 <Alberth> maybe not relevant enough
18:08:29 <frosch123> ok, maybe only one version of preset, but the preset gives a range on the grf versions it works with
18:11:30 <frosch123> _dp_: go to the branch of your fork
18:11:37 <frosch123> press the "make pr" button at the top
18:12:10 <frosch123> for an issue, just reference the issue in the commit message
18:12:49 <_dp_> frosch123, yeah, that's what i did. mentioned in pr description though instead of commit
18:18:04 <_dp_> oh, it checks commit messages o_O
18:18:15 <_dp_> can I edit message on a commit somehow?
18:19:53 <Alberth> interactive rebase allows "rewording" of commit messages
18:20:07 <Alberth> if only the top commit, git ci --amend will work
18:20:36 <Alberth> obviously the hash changes, so anything relying on that breaks
18:22:43 <_dp_> Alberth, yeah, now it tries to merge...
18:23:39 <_dp_> guess I'll just have to close that request and create a new one
18:24:35 <Alberth> merge? rebase exists in 2 flavours
18:24:57 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> so why is model life broken then Eddi|zuHause? :( <-- what excatly is your problem?
18:26:00 <Eddi|zuHause> model life is a bit weird
18:26:26 <Eddi|zuHause> because there's a phase 1, phase 2 and phase 3 which add some random offsets
18:26:48 <Alberth> no need to close the request, just force-push an update
18:27:01 <Alberth> after you're done and happy :)
18:28:59 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: it was the random offsets causing problems
18:29:09 <andythenorth> it's non-obvious that one has to account for phase 1 as well
18:29:20 <andythenorth> and there seems to be a need to add 1 year for luck
18:29:37 <andythenorth> I did read ottd src in the end, much clearer there
18:30:02 <Eddi|zuHause> i did have some magic number in CETS for exactly this problem
18:30:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i never really tested it though
18:30:24 <andythenorth> you did, but when I tried it in Squid it didn't work for me
18:30:42 <andythenorth> pikka gave me a number also that didn't work :)
18:30:58 <andythenorth> I did the maths with paper + pencil in the end :P
18:32:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i think the number in CETS i just pulled out of thin air with the intention to properly test it one day and adjust it, but i never did
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18:33:11 <TrueBrain> frosch123: seems the commit-checker has issues with utf-8 :D
18:33:47 <_dp_> where can I find a list of sections to use in commit message?
18:33:57 <_dp_> : ([<section])? <Details>'
18:34:21 <Eddi|zuHause> there was a link posted a few days ago
18:34:48 <TrueBrain> _dp_: anything, basically. Not always needed too
18:35:09 <TrueBrain> most common it is used for stuff like NoAI, OSX, ..
18:35:37 <TrueBrain> frosch123: would you mind taking a look at why 6725 fails on the commit checker exactly?
18:36:19 <frosch123> commit-checker only allows ascii
18:36:34 <TrueBrain> frosch123: check-diff too
18:36:42 <Eddi|zuHause> "Codechange, Cleanup" <-- i'd say "Codechange" is for things like refactoring, and "Cleanup" is for things like codestyle
18:36:45 <TrueBrain> which is a bit odd, given we said source files can ben UTF-8 :)
18:37:24 <Alberth> c++ allows that nowadays?
18:37:46 <TrueBrain> but editorconfig says it can be utf-8 :D
18:37:46 <Eddi|zuHause> do we really want that?
18:37:47 <frosch123> hmm, anyway, that's not the error it is supposed to give
18:37:50 <TrueBrain> in this case, README :)
18:37:52 <Eddi|zuHause> for strings we have langfiles
18:38:07 <frosch123> TrueBrain: we do english, so what special chars are there?
18:38:18 <frosch123> also source has always been ascii with \u escapes
18:38:22 <Alberth> you get loads of problems with file encoding
18:38:27 <TrueBrain> I dunno; it was asked when owen added editorconfig and the answer was a clear: utf-8 :)
18:38:35 <TrueBrain> so something went wrong in that communication :D
18:38:41 <frosch123> oi, though maybe i barfed on language files :p
18:38:45 <TrueBrain> either way, README needs utf-8, as it has peoples name in it :)
18:38:55 <frosch123> oi, people names :)
18:39:02 <frosch123> yes, i'll change it to source files only
18:39:27 <TrueBrain> (and we will find many more small issues over time :D)
18:40:11 <LordAro> pretty sure C++ doesn't have any ascii related restrictions
18:40:42 <TrueBrain> frosch123: also means we have to update .editorconfig to reflect that btw :)
18:42:13 <frosch123> there was no option for ascii
18:42:31 <frosch123> not sure whether i complained loud about that
18:43:07 <LordAro> i see no reason to disallow non-ascii, tbh
18:43:14 <LordAro> not in the checker, anyway
18:46:01 <_dp_> It's kind of weird to have commit checker on PR considering it would likely be squashed on merging anyway
18:46:49 <_dp_> message format is pointless if it's just a history of fixing same issue
18:47:45 <Alberth> having many small commits helps a lot in figuring out what the heck was done
18:50:44 <TrueBrain> damn, you work fast
18:51:26 <frosch123> it's the third time i rename the "checktabs" variable :p
18:53:50 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: i think it's still a bit open whether the policy will be to "rebase" or to "squash" on merge, but the tendency was towards "rebase"
18:54:19 <frosch123> Alberth: c++11 added utf-8/16/32 literals for strings and (wide) characters
18:54:37 <frosch123> funnily c++17 added a utf-8 literal for regular characters
18:54:44 <frosch123> which is essentially an ascii check
18:55:57 <Eddi|zuHause> you're kind of in trouble when trying to fit a non-ascii utf8 character into a char variable :p
18:56:42 <TrueBrain> frosch123: just as a reminder, if you allow multiple versions of a BaNaNaS uploaded entry, the ToS also needs changing; explicit it was added that this is not allowed, because a few (count: 2) didnt want that for their newgrfs
18:56:43 <Alberth> you may be lucky to have a weird processor, or a compiler with unsigned characters
18:56:51 <Eddi|zuHause> like you're trying to fit a dangling multiform blob through a square hole
18:57:15 <frosch123> TrueBrain: yes, but i consider that only as a matter of data migration and defaults
18:57:32 <TrueBrain> an updated ToS means people have to re-accept it :)
18:57:44 <TrueBrain> that is more what I aim at :)
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18:58:25 <Eddi|zuHause> like an email sent out to everyone with "if you don't reply within 2 weeks we assume you agree"
18:58:33 <frosch123> also doing PR just for updating the submodule hash is annoying
18:58:35 <TrueBrain> no; that is very very very very wrong Eddi|zuHause
18:59:04 <frosch123> my intention is to allow configuring a project like it was before
18:59:07 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, hm, ok. I guess I like squashing more
18:59:20 <frosch123> and default migrated items to that
18:59:40 <TrueBrain> the details we can work out fine :) I just wanted to make you aware it is against the current ToS :)
19:00:19 <TrueBrain> (and to be clear, I am not against changing it :) )
19:01:04 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: squashing might be a option for smaller things, but if you're getting to the scale of NRT or cargodist or something, you probably don't want squash
19:01:08 <TrueBrain> frosch123: your overview mostly describes what is changing; not what is currently offered. Possibly it is good to make a total picture, not the diff? :)
19:01:11 *** Guest39 is now known as Brainzman
19:01:20 <frosch123> also i arrived at a state where i randomly try to use "svn pull", "hg pull" and "git update" :p
19:02:31 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: edit your prompt so it says what kind of repo you're in right now?
19:02:34 <peter1138> Openttd was the last thing I used svn for.
19:02:49 <frosch123> i have svn at work, and that won't change for years
19:03:25 <TrueBrain> frosch123: looks nice, BaNaNaS2 :)
19:03:30 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: well you could use git locally and nobody will ever notice :p
19:04:56 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: alternatively, just alias svn/hg/git to a script that checks what repo you are in, and does The Right Thing (tm)
19:05:07 <peter1138> TrueBrain, damn, this reviewing PR things is awesome.
19:05:17 <TrueBrain> much better than writing in a bug ticket, not? :D
19:05:26 <peter1138> I'd probably have not looked at the patch before :p
19:06:05 <peter1138> I had svn at work but switched to git years ago, cos... well, nobody else was using it.
19:07:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i was at the point where i could decide for myself what i use, and after trying a bit i decided for hg, because it has a better GUI on windows
19:08:10 <TrueBrain> frosch123: and it picked up trailing whitespaces :D \o/ nice!
19:17:10 <frosch123> TrueBrain: anyway, main thing why i wrote that thing today was to point out, that i think bananas2 should be used to offer patchpacks
19:17:56 <TrueBrain> go big or go home :)
19:18:01 <TrueBrain> I like you too can write a lot of text :D
19:18:11 <andythenorth> so we distribute binaries via bananas? o_O
19:18:19 <TrueBrain> that is the next step
19:18:35 <Eddi|zuHause> something in me says you shouldn't offer binary code from external sources
19:18:39 <andythenorth> if we're doing ponies, can I distribute unreleased grfs via bananas?
19:18:50 <frosch123> both is on the list
19:18:53 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a disaster waiting to happen
19:19:13 <frosch123> oh, and there won't be a spell checker role
19:19:15 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause how else can I get a coin miner? :P
19:19:21 <TrueBrain> frosch123: I think it is a sensible step, so yeah
19:19:30 <TrueBrain> frosch123: honestly, I initial read it that you can offer grfs that only work in patchpacks :)
19:19:38 <TrueBrain> but this makes a lot more sense tbh :)
19:20:20 <TrueBrain> I emailed AWS again with my request for sponsor .. this time to yet another address
19:20:39 <Eddi|zuHause> also, only way i can see bananas offering platform-independent "binary mods" will be if we port the game to mono/.net or java
19:21:19 <TrueBrain> frosch123: also gives some room to fix mirroring a bit better .. currently the mixing of 2 sources is a bit iffy
19:21:32 <Alberth> lots of stuff runs at the jvm Eddi :p
19:22:20 <LordAro> some sort of central download service sounds reasonable, but i'm pretty sure it shouldn't be integrated with "bananas"
19:22:29 <LordAro> the code for it would have to be almost entirely separate anyway
19:22:53 <Eddi|zuHause> also, the game should be better split into a "core" and a "gameplay" module, so patchpacks effectively only have to replace the gameplay section, and the core is basically just reduced to a launcher
19:22:57 <TrueBrain> I think you mistake what BaNaNaS is LordAro :)
19:23:47 <TrueBrain> BaNaNaS is, by every definition, a download service; it just has some meta data :)
19:24:40 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 0.00379867046534
19:24:51 <TrueBrain> lol .. 99.7% is downloaded over http :)
19:25:05 <TrueBrain> frosch123: mostly I am really happy with NewGRF presets
19:25:36 <TrueBrain> I remember I was bitching about that years ago :P
19:25:56 <frosch123> ottd also downloads via http
19:26:12 <LordAro> andythenorth: TrueBrain: ^
19:27:06 <TrueBrain> LordAro: I already did my 2 cents :)
19:27:33 <LordAro> well you can keep doing it :p
19:27:42 <LordAro> and so can everyone else
19:32:29 <TrueBrain> I just tried to see how much OpenTTD would cost if we run it on AWS .. it tells me 1100 dollar per month ..
19:33:25 <TrueBrain> storage is only 10 dollar a month
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19:37:19 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, it's more like "core" and "launcher" then, hardly any patchpack is limited to just "gameplay"
19:39:17 <andythenorth> AWS scales up fast
19:39:28 <andythenorth> it's ok if you only use spot instances
19:39:33 <TrueBrain> they cost 25 euro per 1mbit/s
19:39:36 <andythenorth> then costs do some kind of hockey stick curve
19:39:38 <TrueBrain> that is a price I havent seen in a long time :)
19:39:44 <TrueBrain> I understand where the price comes from .. but damn
19:39:51 <TrueBrain> OpenTTD uses 10+ mbit/s 24/7 ..
19:40:09 <TrueBrain> well, this is only the cost of pushing the bytes to our players :)
19:41:41 <TrueBrain> pushing 4 TB doesnt sound like a lot, but for a CDN it clearly is not cheap :)
19:41:52 <TrueBrain> so happy with the mirrors we have :)
19:46:32 <LordAro> ooi, when was the last time someone used ICC to compile OTTD?
19:46:43 <TrueBrain> when was it you tried that last?
19:46:52 <LordAro> well i've never tried it
19:47:13 <LordAro> don't you have to pay lots of money for ICC?
19:47:41 <TrueBrain> is ICC still a thing?
19:48:24 <LordAro> ICC 18 appears to largely support C++17
19:50:07 <LordAro> oh no, apparently you can get it free for OSS purposes
19:50:29 <TrueBrain> they also only do that for Linux :P
19:51:05 <TrueBrain> you do need to register :)
19:52:10 <TrueBrain> invalid password format
19:52:13 <TrueBrain> without telling what the format is
19:52:25 <TrueBrain> at least one special character
19:53:03 <TrueBrain> the restriction of 15 is ... because you are not hashing it?!
19:53:49 <TrueBrain> I always worry about such restrictions .. seems they dont know what they are doing
19:54:32 <TrueBrain> no matter what I do, the password format is invalid
19:54:57 <LordAro> well, i've registered
19:55:29 <LordAro> @calc 14*13*12*11*10*9*8*7*6*5*4*3*2*1
19:55:29 <DorpsGek> LordAro: 87178291200
19:55:29 <TrueBrain> 2 business days .. right
19:57:12 <TrueBrain> "This is to inform you that $15,073.92 has been deposited into your bank account this morning."
20:03:04 <peter1138> Hmm, we're up to 21 forks now. Nearly half-way to what the old repo had.
20:04:40 <TrueBrain> GitHub just replied; we were not the only one with this issue, and they have no clue yet what is causing it
20:06:02 <TrueBrain> but it seems to me at least what didnt work friday, works fine now, so meh :)
20:06:08 <TrueBrain> having a workaround is half the work :)
20:08:25 <_dp_> there is a special place in hell for people who do restrictions on passwords
20:08:58 <TrueBrain> Wolf01 had a nice link about TMobile Austria and their idea of security
20:09:04 <TrueBrain> there are worse ways of doing it
20:09:10 <TrueBrain> (they could see the first 4 letters of your password)
20:09:11 * _dp_ sick tired of constantly using password restore on every stupid site
20:11:16 <peter1138> Well, some restrictions are necessary.
20:11:33 <TrueBrain> at neast N is very much required, yes :)
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20:15:17 <_dp_> I hate sites that have N > 6 since it's more than my garbage password has :p
20:15:50 * peter1138 wonders if _dp_ needs introducing to password managers.
20:16:10 <_dp_> and many sites don't deserve any better password :p
20:17:02 <_dp_> I don't rly like password managers, they are a unsafe for anything that matters and an extra hassle for anything that doesn't
20:18:41 <TrueBrain> this should be interesting: why do you think they are unsafe? :)
20:19:59 <frosch123> there are certainly some that are unsafe :)
20:21:18 <_dp_> coz they still store passwords in some way or other
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20:21:32 <TrueBrain> and you think you cannot store passwords in a safe matter?
20:22:04 <TrueBrain> I can give you my password manager database, and not even with a milion dollars you will get any passwords out of it
20:22:20 <andythenorth> how many GPUs can I buy?
20:22:21 <TrueBrain> so I am not sure if you base your conclusion on the right facts :)
20:22:24 <andythenorth> they're not safe
20:22:28 <TrueBrain> no GPU in the world would help you :)
20:22:37 <andythenorth> but it's relative risk
20:22:40 <TrueBrain> for brute forcing you need to know what you are looking for :)
20:22:49 <TrueBrain> finding data in a binary blob is difficult :)
20:22:50 <andythenorth> is it safer than post-it on your screen?
20:23:06 <Thedarkb-X40> Turns out ctrl+R inverts text on HexChat.
20:23:09 <andythenorth> is it safer than 'Dropbox/my_stuff/passwords.txt'
20:23:17 <TrueBrain> but given, if you know some of the data in it, you can brute force it :)
20:23:40 <andythenorth> is it safer than using things like 'password1'
20:23:50 <_dp_> TrueBrain, what is it encrypted with, master password?
20:24:06 <TrueBrain> it has a master password yes; but the file itself is AES encrypted
20:24:59 <_dp_> TrueBrain, then you only have one master password for everything instead of multiple passwords
20:25:14 <TrueBrain> yup; I only have to remember one complex password :)
20:25:25 <TrueBrain> but you said that password manager were UNSAFE
20:25:37 <TrueBrain> about which I wonder how you got to that conclusion
20:25:43 <_dp_> TrueBrain, also what happens if you loose your db? I know, backups, but what if you need a password when you cant access your db?
20:26:04 <TrueBrain> so you now switched to the usability and social aspect
20:26:12 <TrueBrain> which is fine; but it has nothing to do with the password manager being unsafe
20:26:29 <TrueBrain> but my phone is a fine place to carry such information with me
20:26:34 <TrueBrain> always there, never lost
20:26:34 <_dp_> TrueBrain, ok, safety, what happens if your master password gots keylogged?
20:26:49 <TrueBrain> if my machine is keylogged, my masterpassword is the least of my worries :)
20:27:19 <_dp_> TrueBrain, if you machine is safe from keyloggers you can as well do passwords.txt :p
20:27:30 <TrueBrain> huh? That is a serious weird jump there
20:27:45 <TrueBrain> I cannot even begin to tell you why those two have nothing in common ... :o
20:28:13 <TrueBrain> and just to be clear, I have no issues with you doing your passwords your way; just don't be illinformed thinking password managers are unsafe
20:28:17 <LordAro> well if you switch keyloggers with "anyone else ever looking at anything on your computer"
20:28:32 <TrueBrain> than NOTHING MATTERS :D
20:28:36 <andythenorth> repeat after andythenorth: "infosec is a triangle, balancing three kinds of risk"
20:28:55 <andythenorth> well all the computers are owned anyway
20:29:01 <andythenorth> as chips are made overseas
20:29:05 <andythenorth> stands to reason eh?
20:29:16 <_dp_> TrueBrain, well, I can agree they are somewhat safe if that makes you happy :p
20:29:47 <TrueBrain> and that is fine :) Just understand how keymanager store their database is more secure than most websites are :D
20:29:57 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: I was once asked to verify that we had full chain of custody on hosting hardware, all way from production source
20:30:10 <andythenorth> for infosec part of procurement
20:30:23 <andythenorth> including all sub-assemblies and components
20:30:31 <andythenorth> it was a pass/fail thing, not a risk score
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20:32:28 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: with the GDPR coming, we have been part of risk-assesement of all systems in use .. I imagine your answer was as red :)
20:33:11 <andythenorth> we have what we consider legacy systems, but they aren't legacy by enterprise standards
20:33:20 <andythenorth> and we designed with privacy principles in mind from start
20:34:11 <LordAro> michi_cc: what was the issue with the RNG?
20:34:12 <TrueBrain> yeah .. the company itself rarely is the issue :)
20:34:14 <andythenorth> there are a few things where e.g. right to be forgotten clashes with legal oblifation of customers to be able to defend a court case
20:34:21 <TrueBrain> more the subparts etc
20:34:30 <andythenorth> but mostly we are fine, and we are data processor not owner
20:34:36 <andythenorth> so it's not too bad
20:34:45 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: no, that is pretty clear and not an issue; if you can show why you needed to store the data, it is fine :)
20:34:46 <andythenorth> cookie law was a much bigger drama for us
20:35:15 <TrueBrain> part of the company I work for, does fraud detection; and indeed, it is only a data processor. So it is easy for us. But I have seen evaluations of other companies .. owh booooyyyyyyyyy :D
20:35:43 <TrueBrain> "right to be forgotten" for a fraud system is a bit silly, we found out :D
20:36:12 <TrueBrain> "Yes, I just broke in your system, but now I would like you to remove my information" :D
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20:36:49 <michi_cc> LordAro: Off-by-one in SmallVector
20:37:45 <TrueBrain> never really had to deal with cookie law .. my old boss never wanted to hear about it
20:37:48 <andythenorth> I wish I crashed ottd less
20:39:00 <TrueBrain> and I wish I could find a powercord I have been looking for the last week
20:40:13 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: supermop was last seen in #openttd 5 days, 4 hours, 28 minutes, and 36 seconds ago: <supermop> should look good out of the box
20:40:33 <TrueBrain> I hope you werent talking about cats :D
20:40:37 <_dp_> Even if someone sees me typing my password it would still be quite hard for him to repeat :p
20:41:05 <_dp_> I type fast, have custom layout and never give my keyboard to anyone :p
20:41:47 <TrueBrain> the URL I linked above, shows you dont need to see someone typing .. you can just monitor the data from a distance :P
20:42:07 <TrueBrain> owh, and screens .... SCREENS .. they emit so much more data ..
20:42:14 <TrueBrain> if that type of security is your worry .. :D
20:42:20 <andythenorth> listening through windows
20:42:38 <andythenorth> OR EVEN READING YOUR MIND
20:42:45 <TrueBrain> tempest attacks on your brain :D
20:42:50 <TrueBrain> I will ask tomorrow if they tried that :)
20:44:00 <andythenorth> or you can just drive-by me with a fake flash player update and a password prompt
20:44:03 <andythenorth> remarkably common
20:44:16 <_dp_> I'm mostly concerned about usual stuff like cameras, wifis, viruses
20:44:30 <_dp_> physical attacks are a bit too exotic to worry about
20:44:49 <andythenorth> have you glued your USB ports closed?
20:45:15 <TrueBrain> physical attacks exotic?
20:45:23 <TrueBrain> isnt that the #1 way they get in companies?
20:45:43 <andythenorth> I heard it was device loss + malicious employees top causes
20:45:45 <TrueBrain> is what I would do .. fake AP, remote microphone .. just walking in and plugging in a device ..
20:46:10 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: okay, so #2 :P
20:46:27 <TrueBrain> I am much less worried about attacks over the internet tbh :D
20:46:55 <_dp_> I'm a freelancer and work from home, so my usb ports are safe enough :p
20:46:56 <TrueBrain> but yeah .. something about a balance between all factors :)
20:47:16 <andythenorth> _dp_: but you plug in USB devices?
20:47:22 <TrueBrain> still havent found a powercord ... if it is in none of these boxes ... did I forget to move a box or something ....
20:47:40 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: the powercord probably has malware in anyway
20:47:44 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: owh, those USB disks which also are a wifi, keyboard and mouse :D
20:47:57 <TrueBrain> that was a briliant concept :)
20:48:12 <andythenorth> I was thinking about Bad USB and friends
20:48:14 <TrueBrain> you plugin the USB thinking it only has storage .. and when you are away, they take over your machine :D
20:48:29 <andythenorth> you know the 'sealed' blister packaging USB sticks come int?
20:48:39 <_dp_> andythenorth, yes, but they are my devices
20:48:50 <andythenorth> there's apparently a whole mini-industry of opening those packs and installing malware
20:48:56 <andythenorth> [I have no sources]
20:49:05 <andythenorth> or just doing at source in the factory
20:49:38 <andythenorth> or leaving 'lost' USB sticks in car parks and cafes
20:49:45 <TrueBrain> if you want to keep your shit safe, you dont connect it to the internet :P
20:49:45 <andythenorth> 'hey lucky me, a free USB stick'
20:50:16 <andythenorth> my powercord now has DMA, including reading the encryption keys for my disks
20:50:37 <TrueBrain> but yes, social attacks are great :) Humans are stupid :)
20:50:52 <andythenorth> and everyone has password1 anyway
20:50:59 <andythenorth> my burglar alarm used to be 1234
20:51:15 <andythenorth> it isn't any more, obvs :P
20:51:33 <andythenorth> it contains numbers
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20:55:59 <andythenorth> I need someone who cares about 1950s-1990s British pax coaches
20:56:08 <andythenorth> and knows about colours and stuff
21:10:58 <andythenorth> I need coaches for 1930 and 1960
21:11:05 <andythenorth> I think 89 is better for 1930
21:11:06 <V453000> I like the picture :)
21:11:13 <andythenorth> and I should improve 90 for 1960
21:11:25 <andythenorth> I have a height issue going on too :P
21:13:11 <frosch123> V453000: back in europe?
21:15:33 <andythenorth> 32bpp, 256 browns
21:23:12 <andythenorth> basically, give or take realism...
21:25:07 <frosch123> round edges, and windows that can be opened
21:26:48 <andythenorth> the challenge is how many pixels I get for windows
21:26:53 <andythenorth> maybe I should 2x it all :)
21:27:06 <andythenorth> fortunately realism is secondary here
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21:30:49 <V453000> not leaving it for a while now :P
21:32:16 <andythenorth> peter1138: you actually can do it in Horse if you mix up wagon generations :P
21:33:20 <andythenorth> as well as people like me who want a neat block train on integer lengths :P
21:42:55 <Eddi|zuHause> there isn't really a defined angle
21:43:13 <andythenorth> I've got 138 variants of these to draw, so I need to get this right before I go too far :)
21:43:17 <FLHerne> andythenorth: I think it's the roofline that looks wrong, MkII/III have domed ends that look very distinctive compared to older stock
21:43:51 <andythenorth> my concern is the proportion of window to body depth
21:44:08 <andythenorth> and with a higher camera, you would notice proportionally more of the roof curve
21:44:13 <TrueBrain> LordAro: but does this now work with ccache and llvm?
21:44:21 <andythenorth> I also think my starting sprite is lit wrong at the tumblehome
21:44:51 <LordAro> resolves symlinks to check names only, everything else goes through the original symlink
21:44:57 <LordAro> which ccache uses to fake a compiler
21:45:14 <FLHerne> andythenorth: That one depends if you're looking at early Mk2s (with small sliding windows above the main ones) or Mk2d and later (air-con, so no vent windows)
21:45:38 <TrueBrain> LordAro: if I have ccache and llvm, the CC would be /usr/lib/ccache/clang, but the realpath will be /usr/bin/ccache
21:45:46 <TrueBrain> in result, it breaks :(
21:46:44 <TrueBrain> basically, the realpath trick doesnt work :(
21:47:20 <LordAro> if i knew what the format of icc --version was, i could probably make it work
21:47:27 <andythenorth> FLHerne: they could be mk2s, mk3s, pullmans, it doesn't really matter
21:47:40 <andythenorth> I think for 1960 they should flip to smaller windows though
21:47:42 <TrueBrain> LordAro: in a few days we should have access :)
21:48:53 <FLHerne> Air-con stock before 1970-odd would look odd
21:49:01 <andythenorth> I assumed the windowline moved down, but it actually moved up
21:49:11 <andythenorth> which is why I tried the train 89 style
21:49:15 <FLHerne> It did both, I think :P
21:49:22 <andythenorth> I think it distorts the angle though
21:50:05 <FLHerne> Early Mk2s are from ~1966, aircon ones not until 1972 or something
21:51:17 <FLHerne> andythenorth: FWIW, in your Crewe pic the set isn't actually that random ;-)
21:51:57 <andythenorth> mk1 BG, mk3, mk2f, mk2b
21:52:09 <andythenorth> not random, but 4 types
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21:52:35 <FLHerne> But that's because there were never any Mk2 catering vehicles or full-brakes
21:53:00 <andythenorth> there are in horse :)
21:53:04 <FLHerne> Well, the odd Mk3 FO is a bit random
21:53:07 <andythenorth> as much as anything in horse is a real type
21:53:47 <andythenorth> for some reason horse – sprites are 2 shades darker than Hog
21:53:54 <andythenorth> that should be...adjusted :P
21:54:00 <andythenorth> it limits the highlights
21:54:38 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so from what i gathered looking at the pictures you posted, there's two wagon types, one with smaller windows and the other with larger windows. you're trying to draw the one with the smaller windows?
21:57:05 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think there's too few pixels to accurately depict the differences in windows
21:57:35 <andythenorth> but the difference can be used between generations
21:57:41 <Eddi|zuHause> it could work in x2
21:58:44 <Eddi|zuHause> you could draw it in x2 or x4 and try downscaling it with some good AA
21:58:47 <peter1138> it's only 4x the number of pixels! (yes, I know)
22:01:00 <LordAro> TrueBrain: doesn't even work on my system currently, as clang is -> clang-6.0
22:02:29 <peter1138> andythenorth, why is "electrified road" an "original road type"?
22:02:46 <peter1138> andythenorth, and non-electrified tram, for that matter.
22:03:08 <andythenorth> just because frosch specified that
22:04:15 <peter1138> Hmm. I dislike providing defaults beyond what was originally there, if newgrf can provide them.
22:05:29 <andythenorth> it's basically catenary-or-not
22:05:30 <TrueBrain> LordAro: I found another bug in my Jenkinsfile .. I guess we both started a change which only results into more issues than we tried to solve :D
22:05:59 <andythenorth> I am on the fence about it, but I imagine it had a rationale
22:06:19 <LordAro> TrueBrain: eh, they're expected with CI stuff though :p
22:07:09 <TrueBrain> as with build systems :)
22:08:11 <TrueBrain> now battling bash an quotes ......
22:08:28 <TrueBrain> which is another hilarious issue
22:09:18 <TrueBrain> I am trying to make a variable in which 2 parameters for an application are
22:09:25 <TrueBrain> but that seems impossible
22:09:55 <peter1138> andythenorth, i know it's "just road types"
22:10:14 <LordAro> TrueBrain: i tried to trick godbolt into giving me the icc --version output, but it wouldn't let me :(
22:11:09 <andythenorth> peter1138: if they need dropped for logical reasons, it makes no difference to players / authors
22:11:16 <TrueBrain> BEHOLD! A proper README.md :D
22:12:34 <peter1138> well, unless authors come to expect it.
22:12:55 <peter1138> electrified road is a really weird name too :p
22:14:02 <andythenorth> one way of looking at is that it just completes the 2x2 matrix
22:14:11 <andythenorth> otherwise it's weird that tram defaults to catenary
22:14:14 <andythenorth> for historical reasons
22:14:28 <andythenorth> or that could just be tidy mind problem
22:14:39 <TrueBrain> I so hate shell scripts ... docker sees something else than echo shows ... just because spaces are handled differently ... ugh
22:16:04 <glx> I don't know if we can self approve
22:16:23 <TrueBrain> something that can be enabled, but .. it rarely results in a good quality :)
22:16:34 <glx> seems sane to not self approve
22:17:01 <LordAro> > ln -s /usr/bin/gcc notclang
22:17:06 <LordAro> > ./notclang --version
22:17:06 <LordAro> notclang (GCC) 7.3.1 20180312
22:21:48 <TrueBrain> dont you just love it :)
22:22:08 <LordAro> helpfully, clang does not use argv[0]
22:22:14 <LordAro> no idea about icc, of course
22:26:27 <TrueBrain> check how cmake does it :)
22:26:56 <TrueBrain> mostly pretty readable tbh
22:27:00 <TrueBrain> I tihnk it compiles a small c file
22:27:11 <TrueBrain> and checks the resulting binary for something
22:28:50 <LordAro> why is cmake itself so unreadable :(
22:28:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know if i said anything previously about the matter, but i would just provide one roadtype called ROAD and one tramtype called TRAM as default
22:29:07 <Eddi|zuHause> i find ELRL confusing as it overlaps with rail
22:30:23 <glx> LordAro: equivalent to autoconf for me :)
22:30:29 <TrueBrain> seriously, why did they make shell parameters impossible
22:30:47 <TrueBrain> I just want to pass some docker build commands ...
22:35:18 <TrueBrain> okay, after enough "" it seems to work ......
22:35:54 <Eddi|zuHause> if escaping is not working, you're not using enough of it :p
22:36:41 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd
22:38:05 <andythenorth> sad times, I link to someone's pirated copy of my own video
22:40:10 <TrueBrain> today closed the first ticket because it contained nothing .. hope that it is not constantly like that :D
22:42:10 <TrueBrain> To: 'info@mail.com'
22:42:14 <TrueBrain> Need to talk to you privately. Reply for more details.
22:45:30 <TrueBrain> bad LordAro! Sneaking shit in ... pfft :D
22:46:24 <TrueBrain> LordAro: and while you are fixing that, please rebase :D
22:46:37 <TrueBrain> (after that, rebasing is no lnger a real requirement .. but the fix is after your parent :D)
22:47:05 <LordAro> TrueBrain: awh, you noticed :p
22:47:14 <TrueBrain> you are surprised I really do review? :P
22:47:21 <TrueBrain> the problem with accepting vim statements
22:47:24 <TrueBrain> that next commit will be nano
22:47:25 <LordAro> but vim keeps thinking the file is cobol
22:47:43 <TrueBrain> I mean .. it really never stops
22:47:47 <andythenorth> has anyone finished CONTRIBUTING.md yet?
22:48:03 <andythenorth> I have to redraw 36 pax coach roofs
22:48:10 <andythenorth> and 60 mail coach roofs
22:48:11 <TrueBrain> priorties andythenorth :)
22:48:18 <TrueBrain> I too have better things to do :P
22:48:26 <andythenorth> on the other hand, it's one sprite and then PIL :P
22:48:44 <TrueBrain> how do I open .xip files .. freaking OSX ..
22:49:27 <TrueBrain> something you have on OSX
22:49:45 <andythenorth> zip with a signature
22:49:48 <andythenorth> want me to open it?
22:50:03 <andythenorth> it's xar containing gzip allegedly
22:50:09 <TrueBrain> I was trying to extract SDKs
22:50:32 <TrueBrain> glx: can you test PR 6727 ? :)
22:51:07 <TrueBrain> yeah ... I might ask you after all to get me 10.12 and 10.13 SDKs :)
22:51:47 <TrueBrain> but osxcross doesnt tell if it works
22:51:52 <TrueBrain> so that always makes it a bit harder to ask :)
22:52:12 <V453000> Uhm, so I released latest PURR like 4 months ago and today a guy reported to me that 8bpp version is basically borked AF :D
22:52:20 <V453000> such development, much fast
22:53:42 <V453000> how iz andythenorth ?
22:55:31 <peter1138> Should I buy a new bike?
22:55:48 <V453000> You probably already know the answer :P
22:58:39 <peter1138> I have a suspicion.
22:59:31 <glx> TrueBrain: I let you approve :)
23:00:18 <glx> as you were the one requesting changes
23:01:19 <glx> btw LordAro, please stop touching config.lib it forces to rebuild everything ;)
23:04:33 <TrueBrain> yippie, extracting Mac files on Linux
23:04:38 <TrueBrain> I love how so many people wrote tools to do that :D
23:05:05 <glx> I remember using 7zip to open .dmg on windows
23:05:18 <TrueBrain> yeah .... they changed shit again
23:05:25 <TrueBrain> but .. WITH A TWIST
23:06:09 <glx> I guess 7zip will be able to do it one day
23:07:16 <glx> we all hate when everything needs to be rebuilt
23:07:44 <LordAro> i have to do it semi-regularly at work due to a dodgy build system
23:07:55 <LordAro> and that takes 30 minutes to rebuild with 8 cores
23:08:24 <TrueBrain> first thing I try to do in new projets .. fix the fucking build system
23:08:33 <andythenorth> peter1138: it's probably time
23:08:55 <LordAro> TrueBrain: oh, it used to take 50 minutes
23:09:24 <TrueBrain> okay .. I now see the 10.13 SDK
23:09:30 <TrueBrain> not the 10.12 yet, but that will be similar, I guess
23:09:35 <TrueBrain> need to find last XCode to support 10.12
23:09:40 <TrueBrain> but that isnt the biggest issue :)
23:09:54 <andythenorth> ok as you are wading through OS X shit I will do some more CONTRIBUTING :P
23:09:57 <TrueBrain> I do have to extract it on a different volume .... having 0777 for all files is dodgy :D
23:10:13 <TrueBrain> curious if osxcross works for 10.12 and 10.13
23:10:23 <TrueBrain> as we are dropping older targets left and right, I think I am only going to support 64bit
23:10:36 <TrueBrain> I doubt 1.9 will work on Win98 :P
23:11:01 <glx> I could try a no unicode build
23:11:20 <TrueBrain> as I think we will have x14 shit before I can say LOOKATTHIS
23:11:29 <TrueBrain> maybe mingw can still target win98
23:11:30 <glx> I should have a win98 VM somewhere
23:11:35 <TrueBrain> but for OSX I am not going to try :)
23:11:53 <TrueBrain> andythenorth said: n and n-1
23:12:35 <TrueBrain> what is difficult about OSX, that their XCode contains 1 or 2 SDKs ... which supports 1 or more versions
23:12:38 <LordAro> at what point is it acceptable to say "we'll accept PRs for this platform, but we're not supporting it ourselves" ?
23:12:54 <TrueBrain> we always accepted patches for platforms without really supporting them
23:13:00 <TrueBrain> as long as they are not a maintainers nightmare
23:13:05 <TrueBrain> I mean, there is support for PSP
23:13:23 <glx> hmm I have a win98 VM but its for virtual PC and I no longer have it
23:13:24 <TrueBrain> but all those mobile patches
23:13:34 <TrueBrain> those are not something you want in core OpenTTD
23:13:57 <TrueBrain> they need to do a lot of tricks to make it somewhat playable on your mobile
23:14:05 <TrueBrain> and I do not see why people want to ... at all
23:14:10 <TrueBrain> I think that is typical something for a patchpack
23:14:24 <LordAro> i'm not convinced, i think a mobile (tablet) version could work really well
23:14:25 <TrueBrain> so LordAro, it is not a matter of what we support or not .. more if the PR is in line with our current vision :)
23:14:57 <TrueBrain> but for that we are Open Source .. people can surprise me :)
23:15:20 <TrueBrain> also maybe a better addition to what I said: OpenTTD might compile fine for OSX 10.6
23:15:30 <TrueBrain> but .. our releases we build for 10.12 and 10.13
23:15:39 <TrueBrain> yet we do not officially support OSX
23:16:07 <TrueBrain> (its not black, its not white! Just a LOT OF GREY)
23:16:52 <LordAro> which is the oldest OSX that apple support?
23:17:20 <andythenorth> they don't have a published policy afaict
23:17:33 <TrueBrain> I am off to bed; night guys :D Nice going this week :)
23:17:34 <andythenorth> it's usually n-2, except for critical security updates
23:34:30 <Eddi|zuHause> wait, we support wince?
23:34:47 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe i should install this on one of my machines :p
23:35:31 <Eddi|zuHause> they run WEC7 on an ARMv7 processor with about 1GHz
23:39:06 *** andythenorth has left #openttd
23:48:28 <glx> I think it used to work on wince, but it's probably broken now
continue to next day ⏵
