IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2018-04-05
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00:18:23 <andythenorth> sign it's bedtime :P
00:21:21 <andythenorth> I have a BAD FEATURE
00:22:57 <andythenorth> Pikka: coach liveries change depending which engine is used
00:23:05 <andythenorth> that's not the BAD FEATURE mind
00:23:51 <Pikka> UKRS2 did different liveries for the steam locos... western vs southern etc. So yes, if UKRS2 did it it must be terrible.
00:24:46 <andythenorth> UKRS 2 is famously terrible
00:24:57 <andythenorth> I definitely didn't use it in every game for a few years
00:24:59 <Pikka> if they're matching the loco like an MU or a purpose-built trainset, then it's not so bad
00:26:31 <andythenorth> wow you really did do that in UKRS 2
00:27:19 <andythenorth> also wtf is the pannier tank doing when I add coaches :P
00:27:27 <Eddi|zuHause> "thank god there's ukrs 2.5"... is a sentence nobody ever said
00:28:27 <andythenorth> I never used 'real colours' so I missed the full effect :P
00:28:45 <andythenorth> I was thinking I'd just have 2 pax coach liveries, one for small engines, and one for big engines
00:28:51 <Pikka> about 80% of the code in UKRS2 is 'real colours', and no-one ever used it :P
00:29:02 <andythenorth> NFO is compact though
00:29:08 <andythenorth> so not much wasted there :)
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00:29:31 <andythenorth> BAD FEATURE is swapping livery by flipping the vehicle
00:30:47 <Supercheese> Bad Feature is including moutain spa resorts in the game ;)
00:31:48 <Pikka> andy, definitely sounds like BAD FEATURES
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00:32:04 <Pikka> not least because if you don't put a note in the extra vehicle text, no-one will ever discover it ;)
00:32:17 <andythenorth> it will get reported as a bug :)
00:33:37 <andythenorth> do you like my Wizzo? o_O
00:34:02 <andythenorth> it's like a class 35-42-52
00:34:22 <andythenorth> realistic trains are silly
00:34:35 <Pikka> people seem to like them though
00:34:39 <andythenorth> that chopper is nice, but have you considered making it something invented? o_O
00:35:20 <Pikka> like an armoured soviet missile train?
00:35:55 <andythenorth> class 17 I was thinking
00:39:39 <andythenorth> yes, but with bogies
00:39:44 <andythenorth> so it can go 80mph
00:39:56 <andythenorth> Little Bear in Horse 1 :P
00:40:06 <andythenorth> or 'Dead Horse' as it's now known
00:40:19 <andythenorth> I put a chopper in Horse 2, but it's 3,000HP
00:41:00 <Pikka> lower power locos are nice
00:41:19 <andythenorth> I have a class 73-74 with a pantograph
00:41:20 <Pikka> everything just cruising along at full speed all the time is very TTO
00:41:41 <Pikka> we have a physics engine now, we may as well show it off :P
00:42:13 <andythenorth> so I figured out coaches and mail vans
00:42:26 <andythenorth> except when they're attached to 128s and Scooby Doo
00:43:03 <andythenorth> if I build 2 units of 121, do I get a 117, or 2 121s?
00:44:10 <andythenorth> and if I put a coach in-between 2 121s
00:44:20 <andythenorth> do I get a mk1, or a 117 TCL
00:44:50 <andythenorth> probably yes again
00:45:13 <Pikka> well, if it were me, I'd go for the standard MUs rather than the 121s. :P
00:45:14 <andythenorth> I think I make the railcars by putting yellow ends on the coaches
00:45:20 <andythenorth> then the problem is sovled
00:45:29 <andythenorth> all looks about same
00:45:36 <Pikka> yes, that is also a solution
00:45:41 <Pikka> and what I've done so far for my 101 :P
00:46:35 <Pikka> I'd tend to make any combination of 121s and passenger cars look like a 117. But I'd also tend to just make it build as a standard double-ended MU in the first place.
00:47:00 <andythenorth> I can always add it later eh :P
00:47:15 <andythenorth> why would one add a coach to a 121 anyway? :P
00:47:21 <andythenorth> just add another 121
00:48:35 <Pikka> just coaches with fronts and exhaust pipes :P
00:51:56 <Pikka> haven't drawn one yet... still wondering whether the "no livery change on cargo refit" rule applies
00:52:55 <andythenorth> that horse bolted
00:53:11 <andythenorth> livery change on refit is a GOOD FEATURE
00:53:22 <andythenorth> esp. if the livery indicates current cargo
00:53:51 <Pikka> I guess you're not often going to autorefit a DMU between passengers and cargo :P
00:54:04 <Pikka> but then I have your problem
00:54:06 <andythenorth> V convinced me that vehicles should indicate cargo as often as possible
00:55:21 <andythenorth> I've been saving this for that question
01:06:17 <andythenorth> with option for solid CC if flipped
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01:06:55 <andythenorth> and some kind of weird magic for pure mail trains
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08:17:46 <andythenorth> and dibble the stats so its 110mph too
08:18:37 <andythenorth> it's easier to play 'what to leave out'? o_O
08:24:10 <Pikka> well definitely leave out anything with weird articulation that's impossible to draw :P
08:24:59 <andythenorth> I found it much easier
08:25:07 <andythenorth> when I stopped trying to include 'my favourite train'
08:25:23 <andythenorth> same for RVs too
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08:28:13 <Pikka> but people like their favourite train
08:44:40 <Pikka> mail refit for a generic mk3 MU?
08:47:11 <Pikka> in my 10 locos I had the 321 as the one and only EMU, and this is the mail refit, so it works for me.
08:51:15 <andythenorth> I split pax and mail MUs
08:51:17 <andythenorth> can't remember why
09:01:24 <Pikka> what do I draw next? 47?
09:01:34 <Pikka> hmm, I need flatcar loads
09:06:51 <andythenorth> if you do DP2, then you solve the 'everyone puts a Deltic on coal' problem eh ;)
09:10:14 <andythenorth> easter egg: 47 randomly repaints to Lion, Falcon or DP2 :P
09:15:18 <Pikka> "boring" maybe, but it's still more representative, and people like that. There are still 47s and 20s running around today, while all other loco classes of the era are long gone
09:16:00 <andythenorth> the most representative vehicles are the obvs choice eh
09:16:12 <andythenorth> I just like to mess it up a bit :P
09:16:17 <Pikka> not necessarily, but people like familiarity
09:16:30 <Pikka> and often the reasons they're successful translate into TTD, more or less
09:16:47 <andythenorth> hmm 'reversible symmetric' has angered my compile
09:16:59 <andythenorth> it was all nice and tidy, now I'm inserting BAD FEATURE hax
09:27:22 <Pikka> is reversablity BAD FEATURES?
09:29:16 <andythenorth> if it's just depot flip, it's good
09:29:29 <andythenorth> if you randomly reverse tank engines on build, that's bad features
09:29:32 <andythenorth> but not BAD FEATURES
09:29:43 <andythenorth> bad features are the same as good features
09:29:56 <andythenorth> someone should make a flow chart of FEATURES
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09:38:51 <andythenorth> when a 6/8 vehicle is flipped, what happens to the offsets?
09:47:54 * andythenorth has work to do :P
09:48:18 <peter1138> If the offsets are correct, it should Just Work™
09:49:20 <andythenorth> I think I have done it wrong :P
09:51:25 <muffindrake> The wiki says the initial rewrite of the game was done in C, when was that changed?
09:51:41 <peter1138> About 10 years ago.
09:52:33 <peter1138> andythenorth, it's possible it Never Worked™
09:53:44 <andythenorth> it's possible that I am giving the wrong offsets too
09:53:52 <Pikka> andy: you need a second set of sprites with the same offsets
09:54:04 <muffindrake> What C++ standard does the game conform to, then?
09:54:17 <muffindrake> I'm having a hard time scouring the autohell jungle for any std flags
09:54:26 <Pikka> if you want to use the same sprites, you just need to swap the offsets of sprites 1-4 and 5-8
09:55:10 <peter1138> What autohell jungle?
09:55:14 <Pikka> keep the offsets and switch the sprites, if you want it to flip. whichever way you want to look at it.
09:58:30 <andythenorth> I'm swapping sprites and offsets
09:58:33 <peter1138> As far as I know the offset should place the front of the vehicle in the right place.
09:59:03 <peter1138> That might not work in non-terrain windows, in which case I'd say that's a bug :p
10:12:22 <Pikka> bounding boxes vs offsets?
10:12:39 <andythenorth> yeah, line 52 is not the problem I misread my code
10:13:20 <andythenorth> I need to do something else
10:20:45 <Pikka> it's been a while, but maybe it does justwork... there's flipped by the game (right click) and there's flipped sprites in the code... the latter requires the offsets changing, maybe the former doesn't. so maybe it's changing the offsets that's causing the problem.
10:21:48 <andythenorth> I am reading the actual nml
10:22:08 <andythenorth> I can't really read nml :P
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10:24:32 <andythenorth> so I have a random varaction 2 that swaps the bounding boxes
10:24:47 <andythenorth> to 'build' the vehicle facing forwards / backwards
10:24:54 <andythenorth> and then I allow flipping
10:26:55 <andythenorth> but the random variation is irrelevant
10:27:14 <andythenorth> forward-facing vehicles have the wrong offsets if they're not 8/8
10:28:09 <andythenorth> what if the offsets are wrong? o_O
10:39:21 <Eddi|zuHause> the world will implode
10:44:50 <andythenorth> seems I do need to check var C8 and provide different offsets
10:45:35 <andythenorth> Pikka: NARS 2 flips 6/8 ok, do you have to handle var C8 there?
10:47:43 <Pikka> not bounding boxes though :P
10:47:54 <andythenorth> bounding boxes work ok
10:48:29 <andythenorth> the flip is using wrong offsets even without magical bounding box stuff
11:09:46 <andythenorth> yeah checking var C8 fixes it
11:18:39 <andythenorth> if this goes well, we'll get bug reports
11:18:53 <andythenorth> that ctrl-click 'reverses' the engine, instead of changing the livery, in other newgrfs :P
11:36:59 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: how about people asking you whether you can make more than 2 variants?
11:37:26 <andythenorth> count the number of times flipped?
11:37:30 <andythenorth> cycle through them?
11:37:45 <andythenorth> might actually be the best solution to the long-standing 'choose livery' pony
11:37:53 <andythenorth> alt-click in depot
11:38:02 <Eddi|zuHause> well, you cannot flip
11:38:22 <Eddi|zuHause> and alt is already reserved
11:39:52 <andythenorth> vehicle.symmetry_type == 'symmetric'
11:39:58 <andythenorth> returns True for 'asymmetric'
11:40:05 <andythenorth> do I misunderstand == in python?
11:42:07 <andythenorth> nope, incorrectly closed loop
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12:33:03 <andythenorth> such mail car flip
12:33:33 <andythenorth> nice thing is, clone preserves the flip
12:33:42 <andythenorth> so the consist livery isn't re-randomised
12:33:52 <Pikka> so now I have to ctrl-click every vehicle I build to check for easter eggs?
12:34:32 <andythenorth> mostly it will say 'vehicle cannot be flipped'
12:34:52 <andythenorth> I have more stupidity planned :P
12:36:03 <andythenorth> can do quite a bit with 2CC and a fixed accent colour eh
12:36:13 <andythenorth> engine liveries to match consist major cargo
12:42:07 <Pikka> just think of the BAD possibilities...
12:50:27 <andythenorth> I am enjoying the decision about which generic 0-6-0 to use :)
13:08:01 <Pikka> but also the J11 is GCR, so...
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13:51:51 <Pikka> still not convinced flipping liveries isn't badfeatures though :P
13:53:46 <andythenorth> no set is complete without a flaw
13:56:35 <peter1138> 32bpp extra zoom woo
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13:57:14 <andythenorth> nah it's pikka's new set
13:59:38 <Pikka> 47s are more of a pain to draw than you might think
14:00:37 <Pikka> should I be putting second company colour in my set?
14:01:53 <Pikka> actually... maybe for the 2-tone liveries. so it doesn't matter if players don't set it, it still contrasts.
14:02:20 <andythenorth> peter1138: add 3CC, please :P
14:02:36 <andythenorth> moar is better, right?
14:03:11 <Thedarkb-X40> I'd like to make a set with Irish vehicles and industries but I don't know the first thing about making NewGRFs
14:03:34 <andythenorth> Pikka: doing realistic intro dates on 20 and 47?
14:04:08 <Pikka> Thedarkb-X40: pick a vehicle, draw it, code it, go from there.
14:04:45 <andythenorth> where did 25 and 37 come from? :o
14:04:58 <Pikka> they're not in the 10 locos
14:05:03 <Pikka> but they are in the 20 locos :P
14:05:12 <andythenorth> realistic HP too?
14:05:30 <andythenorth> but we should do different things eh :)
14:06:11 <Pikka> also "Type 1, Type 3, Type 4" looks odd as a loco selection
14:06:13 <andythenorth> I should add a 33
14:06:32 <andythenorth> it's a type 2 with wrong prefix number
14:06:42 <andythenorth> I should fix my code
14:06:53 <Pikka> we should all fix our code
14:07:13 <andythenorth> I'm not fixing other people's
14:09:47 <Pikka> not sure about when/which pacific yet
14:10:02 <andythenorth> but there's only so many ways to skin the cat
14:10:11 <Pikka> is horse and is ukrs and is original vehicles, yes
14:10:32 <Pikka> all roads lead to pretty much the same set
14:11:06 <andythenorth> I should finish Horse
14:11:07 <Pikka> unless your BRSet and have a Gresley A4 and sixteen variations on one EMU
14:11:30 <andythenorth> 14 different GP38s
14:11:42 <Pikka> yes, I heard that horse had multiple rosters
14:12:19 <andythenorth> GP15, GP18, GP20, GP35, GP38, GP38-2, GP39, GP40, GP40-2
14:12:31 <andythenorth> his wife has been ill a lot
14:12:43 <andythenorth> last I heard he was driving tow truck in Ontario winter
14:12:55 <andythenorth> like Highway Thru Hell, but no rotator
14:13:29 <andythenorth> also 14 kinds of Alco RS are needed
14:13:47 <andythenorth> NARS is my favourite set though
14:14:17 <Pikka> after 2.5, when all the BAD FEATURES got taken out
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14:45:36 <andythenorth> Pikka: doing wagons also? o_O
15:11:31 <Pikka> 4-wheel everything, then some bigger wagons in the 60s or so.
15:12:35 <andythenorth> do you manually repaint the liveries?
15:13:21 <Pikka> I'm drawing everything in grey and then doing colour overlays
15:13:31 <Pikka> since you need to do that for CC in 32bpp anyway
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15:32:22 * andythenorth auto-magically repaints fridge wagons
15:42:38 * andythenorth avoided drawing 14 wagons
16:08:38 <andythenorth> no need to show the cargo
16:12:17 <andythenorth> hmm, show the doors though?
16:13:28 <andythenorth> dunno if that looks better or worse
16:18:02 <Alberth> gives an idea whether the wagon is full or not
16:18:39 <Alberth> which I consider quite useful
16:19:10 <Pikka> can you normally tell with boxcars? Unless they drive around with the doors open, which - for the UK - is very unprototypical
16:21:48 <andythenorth> yeah I drew a gap for loading
16:22:02 <andythenorth> question is whether to also include the doors, moved along side of wagon
16:26:44 <Alberth> would be 2 pixels max?
16:27:18 <Alberth> unless you give them a really different colour, you won't see them at all :)
16:28:08 <Alberth> go for 4x zoom, so you can have doors :p
16:28:41 <Alberth> better just use a 32bpp set then :)
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17:07:57 <andythenorth> now I do the really BAD FEATURE
17:17:35 <andythenorth> not even sure how to implement it yet :P
17:17:51 <andythenorth> mail cars show livery depending on engine
17:17:59 <andythenorth> but engine livery changes depending on consist :P
17:18:09 <andythenorth> it's nearly a circular reference, but not quite :P
17:27:31 <andythenorth> trying pax cars with opening doors right now :P
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17:28:43 <Alberth> that's less than a pixel, probably :p
17:29:14 <andythenorth> it's one pixel wide
17:29:19 <andythenorth> black strip, looks dumb
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17:34:23 <andythenorth> hmm looks good in \ / views though
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17:55:41 <andythenorth> how many different liveries can a 6/8 pax have?
17:55:49 <andythenorth> not many pixels there
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18:08:40 <andythenorth> liveries: 1) both CC, no accent colour 2) both CC, 'local train' accent colour 3) both CC 'express train' accent colour
18:08:47 <andythenorth> probably not going to get more than that eh
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18:10:33 <andythenorth> or I could just make life simple and do 2 liveries
18:16:28 <Alberth> lots of train sets with pax, no need to make new ones :p
18:16:46 <andythenorth> it's an interesting project :)
18:17:58 <andythenorth> there are about 120 wagons
18:18:27 <andythenorth> and only 11 pax wagons
18:18:36 <andythenorth> might as well give them some appearance options
18:19:16 <andythenorth> can we have 3rd CC though? :P
18:24:49 <andythenorth> I could offset the CC with a remap sprite? o_O
18:24:57 <andythenorth> so you pick blue, 3CC is red
18:29:21 <andythenorth> probably shouldn't :P
18:30:12 <andythenorth> I need some BROS peeps
18:30:16 <andythenorth> they know all about liveries
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19:17:19 <Wolf01> I only take one espresso at day, maybe 2 but only if I really need it
19:17:54 * peter1138 drinks decaf tea these days.
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19:26:08 <andythenorth> livery brainache
19:26:30 <andythenorth> 5 generations of pax cars
19:26:35 <andythenorth> might as well make them look different eh?
19:27:21 <andythenorth> that's 10 liveries
19:44:47 <andythenorth> I can only invent 5 so far :P
19:46:58 <Wolf01> Put random graffiti on the other 5
19:55:18 <andythenorth> I could do angled stripes, but I think it will look very bad
19:56:36 <frosch123> engines are already kind of diagonal
19:56:44 <frosch123> the wagons could pass as german ones
19:56:50 <frosch123> nothing angled there
19:57:06 <andythenorth> I am planning a euro set sometime :P
19:57:19 <andythenorth> the UK stuff looks deliberately kind of euro-ish :P
20:09:18 <andythenorth> supermop_work: ^^
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20:42:54 <Thedarkb> What does the current usage in the trains box mean?
20:44:44 <andythenorth> is it % of available cargo capacity used?
20:45:51 <Thedarkb> I have all trains selected and it just says 34%
20:46:59 <andythenorth> I have 0% with no trains loaded
20:47:08 <andythenorth> so I figure it's cargo capacity utilisation
20:52:37 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure what that feature is that you're talking about. but i'd guess it counts delivered cargo per air distance and time spent at max speed
20:52:47 <Eddi|zuHause> so if you drive back empty it reduces the number
20:52:54 <Eddi|zuHause> if you wait for full load it reduces the number
20:53:01 <Eddi|zuHause> if you wait at red signals it reduces the number
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20:53:09 <Eddi|zuHause> if your track takes detour it reduces the number
20:53:20 <Eddi|zuHause> if the train accelerates it reduces the number
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20:54:14 <Eddi|zuHause> with all that, 34% sounds like a perfectly reasonable number
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22:25:49 <frosch123> like "goods box van" but in pax colours?
22:26:07 <andythenorth> the doors kind of suck
22:26:15 <andythenorth> got the same problem in Hog and Sam
22:26:20 <andythenorth> mail vehicles :P
22:28:26 <andythenorth> original base set just has big black open doors
22:29:15 <andythenorth> do trains have some kind of user bit I can set?
22:30:41 <Eddi|zuHause> each vehicle has user bits, but you cannot access them, only the OR over all the vehicles in the chain
22:31:18 <andythenorth> can't find them in the docs
22:31:23 <Eddi|zuHause> (and you cannot assume that all the vehicles come from your GRF)
22:31:55 <andythenorth> I am trying to avoid having to do a large varaction 2 checking lead engine ID
22:32:06 <andythenorth> for a livery trick
22:32:26 <andythenorth> probably I should just do the ID check eh
22:32:42 <frosch123> isn't your code generated anyway? :p
22:32:53 <andythenorth> I just worry about performance in game
22:33:06 <frosch123> it's a binary lookup now :)
22:33:10 <andythenorth> some of the va2 chains must be ridiculous when compiled
22:33:51 <frosch123> try to create a scenario for hash lookups?
22:35:50 <Eddi|zuHause> "position_in_articulated_veh" is that new?
22:37:24 <andythenorth> repo will know :P
22:37:56 <frosch123> it's not from ttdp age
22:38:27 <andythenorth> there's no nml expression for 'if n in list' ?
22:38:37 * andythenorth might just write a big ugly switch
22:38:44 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: only 4 years
22:39:14 <frosch123> andythenorth: do you read your generated code :o
22:42:10 <Chrill> Eddi|zuHause I want to Paradox's headquarters a while back!
22:42:18 <andythenorth> frosch123: only to debug it
22:42:56 <andythenorth> I can't really read nml
22:43:25 <frosch123> Chrill: paradoxcon?
22:43:40 <Chrill> nein, I did a playtest
22:43:48 * andythenorth needs ID of lead vehicle
22:43:53 <frosch123> i heard they started handing out swords to 20 year employees
22:43:57 <andythenorth> how do I 81 in nml? :P
22:44:03 <andythenorth> must be PARENT or something
22:45:13 <Chrill> It's quite the playground at Paradox
22:45:20 <Chrill> don't see how they ever manage to actually develop their games
22:46:04 <andythenorth> vehicle_type_id looks useful
22:46:25 <andythenorth> hmm things I could do with position_in_vehid_chain :P
22:47:05 <Eddi|zuHause> make each consecutive wagon one colour shade lighter :p
22:47:33 <Eddi|zuHause> have a continuous drawing
22:49:53 <andythenorth> I'm probably just going to make every 3rd car a restaurant car tbh
22:53:31 <frosch123> nuts already has zebra slugs
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23:06:48 <andythenorth> all that nml for reversing
23:07:04 <andythenorth> but all those vehicles are symmetrical, and non-flippable :P
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