IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2018-03-29
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00:33:06 <TrueBrain> I email AWS about asking what they can do for OpenTTD .. and I get a very non-sensible answer in return .. wtf is this shit ...
00:33:27 <TrueBrain> they suggest me to look in a program of theirs, which helps people run events sponsored by AWS ........ WUTH?! :P
00:37:32 <TrueBrain> then the next suggestion (they had multiple, as my question was clearly too vague, but they repeated the question perfectly fine) is to look into business sales ..
00:37:43 <TrueBrain> but they are also very helpful in linking the getting started ...
00:37:53 <TrueBrain> okay ... lets try the NPO entry, see if they can help ..
00:41:40 <TrueBrain> I can rate replies :D
00:41:46 <TrueBrain> They shouldn't have done that :)
00:41:56 <TrueBrain> *wrote some nice words about not helping me* :)
00:43:40 <TrueBrain> and every form demands you fill in things like addresses, phone numbers, etc
00:43:48 <TrueBrain> I just want to ask a simple question :(
00:44:47 <LordAro> what do you have AWS in mind for?
00:45:08 <TrueBrain> but to start with, they can take care of the link between GH and the build-farm
00:45:36 <TrueBrain> that does fit fine in the free tier btw, but I was asking them to possibilities further down the line
00:45:42 <TrueBrain> for example, could they do the CDN for the content service
00:45:49 <TrueBrain> not saying we should, but could we? What does it cost? etc
00:46:22 <TrueBrain> serverless hosting is a lot easier for a project like OpenTTD :)
00:46:56 <LordAro> i dislike "serverless" as a buzzword
00:47:08 <TrueBrain> that is why I use it in the technical sense :)
00:47:55 <TrueBrain> I mean, if all we have to do is upload a BaNaNaS file to an S3 bucket ..
00:48:03 <TrueBrain> that would cut on a lot of scripting and other non-sense
00:48:40 <LordAro> oh yes, i forget about buckets and such like
00:48:45 <LordAro> i've never really used AWS
00:49:11 <TrueBrain> but it seems they can greatly help us reduce complexity
00:49:29 <TrueBrain> and help us only do stuff that matters
00:49:36 <TrueBrain> instead of bullshit like upgrading to MySQL 5.7 ...
00:50:14 <LordAro> well i don't see how you're going to get away from that :p
00:50:28 <TrueBrain> the world isn't black and white
00:50:40 <TrueBrain> now I have to do 100%. If we can cut this to 10% by using AWS
00:50:44 <TrueBrain> that sounds like a 90% win to me :)
00:51:35 <LordAro> i feel it'd be less of an issue if it wasn't all entirely relying on you
00:52:08 <TrueBrain> we searched and looked .. nobody ever helped fixing only a single issue, except for Rb (and some other devs)
00:52:15 <TrueBrain> so you can either hold on to a seemly broken concept
00:52:25 <TrueBrain> or move to a concept that others use, and shows potential :)
00:52:49 <TrueBrain> in general, you can really wonder if "doing it all yourself" is a maintanable goal in this world
00:53:00 <TrueBrain> serverless is a really really good idea for the small
00:53:15 <TrueBrain> do you really want to maintain any httpd ... is that really how you want to spend any of your time ..
00:53:31 <TrueBrain> sure it is "fun" and "educational" ... but that is a novalty issue
00:55:27 <TrueBrain> people have this weird "hanging on the past" when it comes to giving away control :)
00:55:40 <TrueBrain> but I really like serverless concept; I want to host a website, not run a LAMP :P
00:56:30 <LordAro> as long as you're ok with being reliant on a 3rd party to actually respond to issues
00:56:45 <LordAro> especially if you're on some free/sponsored tier
00:56:48 <TrueBrain> that is the only issue with clouds these days .. you do vendor-lock yourself
00:57:14 <TrueBrain> but any migration is painful tbh ..
00:57:24 <TrueBrain> either financial or time-wise
00:58:01 <TrueBrain> but, with the same argument that moving to GH is an awesome idea: movement is better than sitting stil
01:00:04 <LordAro> well, the self-hosted option was considered :p
01:01:15 <TrueBrain> and strongly advised against :)
01:01:39 <TrueBrain> owh well, pushed my exact same request to another part of AWS now ..
01:01:45 <TrueBrain> lets see what that returns ...
01:01:58 <TrueBrain> if any of you have any knowledge of Open Source projects on AWS, please do drop me a line ..
01:02:24 <TrueBrain> for now, time to get some well deserved sleep .. was a long day celibrating my birthday :D (see how I sneaked that right in there :P)
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15:47:26 <supermop_work> well transporter mostly drawn
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16:09:28 <test12345> Hm, wanted to see if there was some more discussion concerning yesterday's question :p
16:18:23 <test12345> ^ Have you seen this?
16:37:23 <test12345> May I ask a serious question now -- how can I make a scenario using a heightmap?
16:39:27 <Alberth> there is "load height map" in the scenario editor
16:40:16 <test12345> I can't find it though. I see a plain terrain
16:41:31 <Alberth> main menu -> scenario editor -> save icon drop down -> load height map -> enter/click filename -> load done
16:41:57 <Alberth> did you even check the dropdown menus?
16:43:03 <test12345> I had checked some of them, but not the save icon
16:43:21 <Alberth> clearly you hadn't :)
16:44:04 <test12345> Anyway, thank you. It works! :-)
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19:08:47 <Wolf01> Nice, I have 42kbps of bandwidth
19:26:26 <Alberth> as long as you don't use it? :)
19:26:50 <Wolf01> It's just enough to let me use irc and telegram
19:28:21 <Alberth> but yeah, irc works, I started using that at 2400 baud :)
19:28:44 <Wolf01> Took 20 minutes to download 15MB of updates
19:30:45 <Wolf01> But the worst is the lag... like 2 seconds
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19:43:10 <Wolf01> Ha! My speed test is "download test error"
19:44:07 <RafiX> mine can be even slower
19:44:51 <Wolf01> Usually I have 1.6-2.5 seconds
19:45:32 <andythenorth> I suspect it might be slow, as it would need to run the full industry callback chain, for all tiles
19:45:43 <andythenorth> but it's an interesting problem
19:45:46 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r28000 trunk/src/lang/welsh.txt (2018-03-29 19:45:40 +0200 )
19:45:48 <DorpsGek> welsh: 7 changes by kazzie
19:48:27 <Wolf01> Ok, the provider unleashed the hamsters now, back on standard speed/ping
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19:59:28 <Eddi|zuHause> oh i remember the days where i spent a whole day on ISDN downloading one CD
20:02:37 <Eddi|zuHause> i seem to have misconfigured my steam somehow, it schedules uptates for totally random times, instead of downloading them right away
20:02:50 <Eddi|zuHause> which is completely useless
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20:03:06 <Wolf01> Nah, it's doing that for me too
20:03:29 <Eddi|zuHause> but why would it assume that i am somehow less busy in 6 hours?
20:03:40 <Wolf01> Some 1MB updates get scheduled for "tomorrow noon", other 4.5GB updates start immediately
20:03:59 <Wolf01> And I don't have any prioritized game
20:07:26 <andythenorth> I should play OpenTTD
20:07:47 <Eddi|zuHause> that borders on blasphemy
20:07:59 <andythenorth> I don't have an NRT grf
20:08:03 <ST2> I see a Tanks riot on the horizon xD
20:08:07 <andythenorth> and I have to play NRT
20:08:17 <Eddi|zuHause> test nrt without any nrt grf
20:14:50 <Wolf01> andythenorth: We need a selection of tiles to show where the industry may be placed, with white/red tiles, if the industry can change shape the tiles might be yellow if they meet an obstacle
20:15:30 <Wolf01> Eh, wallyweb suggested exactly that
20:15:54 <andythenorth> there are some in JGR for the zones things
20:16:04 <andythenorth> like the station catchment tiles, but recoloured
20:16:46 <andythenorth> oh we have the red one already for station remove
20:16:54 <andythenorth> so we have 3 colours in core ottd
20:17:27 <Wolf01> We might give it a look together
20:18:27 <andythenorth> I have concerns about performance, but let's not worry about that :D
20:19:23 <Pikka> just make all industries prospecting, problem solved :P
20:20:03 <andythenorth> I considered a 1 tile survey camp
20:20:09 <andythenorth> industries prospect near it
20:33:55 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: i'd much rather have it so you can choose the layout, instead of weird colour games
20:35:36 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the zoning patch doesn't add colours, it's already done by recoloring in trunk. it just adds an inner highlight rectangle to complement the existing outer one
20:38:43 <andythenorth> choosing the layout might not be as desirable as you think
20:38:48 <andythenorth> it puts more work on you
20:39:15 <andythenorth> I am not -1 to the idea, but I don't think it's the primary improvemewnt
20:40:19 <andythenorth> Wolf01: it's probably two patches
20:40:43 <andythenorth> 1) detect whether a layout can be built, and change the colour of the cursor under the tile
20:41:39 <andythenorth> 2) show layout(s) as a tile grid
20:41:44 <andythenorth> 2 is rather hard imho
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20:42:16 <Eddi|zuHause> well, you can either have random layout choosing or an exact representation of where it's going to be placed. not both
20:43:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i think the subset of people who want to place industries manually, but want to be surprised by the layout it's going to choos is fairly small
20:50:05 <andythenorth> you'd have to survey for that :P
20:50:20 <andythenorth> I can only offer my opinion, which is that choosing the layout is very boring
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21:00:25 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see how it's different from choosing which direction of tracks your platforms should have
21:00:55 <andythenorth> arguably you're right
21:01:01 <andythenorth> but I think it's more work
21:01:23 <andythenorth> currently I only have to click approximately where I want the industry
21:01:30 <andythenorth> in the common cases
21:01:52 <Eddi|zuHause> there's no reson to forbid that
21:01:56 <andythenorth> choosing a specific layout means I have to understand precisely the conditions that will allow that layout to bbuild
21:02:22 <andythenorth> which are very hard to understand, unless you are the newgrf author
21:03:08 <andythenorth> so the UI would be 'random layout' | layouts 1-n
21:08:49 <Wolf01> <andythenorth> 1) detect whether a layout can be built, and change the colour of the cursor under the tile <- we could do this and see if will get to trunk
21:09:02 <glx> show layout and required land shape ;)
21:09:38 <glx> for crazy stuff like tourist buildings
21:10:35 <Wolf01> I wouldn't change the way the game works now, just show if you could place it or not before clicking, maybe with a max(x,y) tile area
21:10:36 <andythenorth> that's just harder
21:10:49 <andythenorth> binary yes/no is first step
21:13:44 <andythenorth> hmm Eddi might be right
21:13:59 <andythenorth> showing layout on random choice is ~impossible
21:14:17 <andythenorth> it's easy for an allowed layout
21:14:34 <andythenorth> but if there are no allowed layouts, which one should then be shown?
21:16:30 <Wolf01> andythenorth: Wetroads and gondolas for tourists plz, max speed 4km/h, 2 people capacity, 40 to 90€ ticket :P
21:17:30 <Pikka> Wolf01, I've always thought navigations and narrowboats would be best represented as notroads, rather than ships ;)
21:17:47 <Wolf01> We made NRT exactyle for that
21:18:53 <Eddi|zuHause> have you asked V?
21:19:42 <LordAro> nah, .16 is stable now
21:19:45 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if no layout is available, just show a red highlight on the current tile
21:19:56 <LordAro> clearly V has loads of time
21:20:14 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that doesn't solve the 'give me a guide to placement' that has been asked for
21:20:25 <andythenorth> but I don't think that problem can be solved
21:20:53 <andythenorth> unless choosing an explicit layout...
21:21:17 <Eddi|zuHause> if you allow choosing a layout, you can highlight the mismatched tiles
21:23:49 <Wolf01> We should change a lot of interfaces to be like the newobjects one
21:24:09 <Wolf01> Stations are almost like that, extend it to industries
21:24:34 <andythenorth> industries would need to be more like airports
21:25:05 <andythenorth> airports already handle scaling the sprites, and paging through layouts
21:25:21 <andythenorth> (try OGFX+ Airports to see the multiple orientations)
21:25:58 <andythenorth> I bet that manual industry layout selection is not very hard
21:26:06 <andythenorth> it's just hard to make the UI not ugly
21:29:21 <Eddi|zuHause> do airports actually handle scaling sprites, or is it a custom preview sprite that each airport must provide?
21:30:12 <Wolf01> Fuck, a new crash on NRT reported
21:31:17 <andythenorth> I read the crashlog, but I didn't get any insight
21:34:45 <Wolf01> Uhm, did he even started a game or the game crashed as soos as he launched it?
21:35:48 <andythenorth> there's no save eh?
21:36:46 <Wolf01> Tick 49367: game loaded <- I bet he loaded a trunk savegame on NRT
21:37:19 <Wolf01> But the last 4 grrfs are NRT ones
21:38:03 <Wolf01> Ok, opening a 18MB dump on VS shows exactly the same things of the log file
21:38:35 <Wolf01> "The thread tried to divide an integer value by an integer divisor of zero."
21:38:38 <glx> <Eddi|zuHause> do airports actually handle scaling sprites, or is it a custom preview sprite that each airport must provide? <-- I think it's a preview
21:41:09 <peter1138> has TrueBrain finished his magic yet?
21:41:46 <andythenorth> ok so they're pre-scaled
21:41:55 <andythenorth> I am *not* doing that in newgrf industries :
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22:19:28 <Wolf01> Connection says to go to bed
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