⏴ go to previous day
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00:37:52  <Samu> 3 years

00:52:28  <planetmaker> wow, lots of activity suddenly :D

00:59:28  <Wolf01> 'night

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01:06:56  <Samu> 2 years

01:10:19  <Eddi|zuHause> that only happens when things break :p

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01:19:39  <Samu> last year

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01:54:24  <Samu> finished

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04:37:00  <Gustavo6046> Tunnels are costly. Is there no cheap way to get past a mountain without penalizing the vehicular speed??

04:37:10  <Gustavo6046> Sometimes going around isn't a simple solution.

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07:51:49  <TrueBrain> yes, LordAro, sometimes people work and need sleep and that childish stuff :P

07:52:05  <TrueBrain> the Rust bot is funny;  it is a nice way to solve that master should always compile (and succeed in tests)

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09:15:00  <Wolf01> Moin

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10:43:13  <Samu> HI

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11:48:57  <Samu> how many times can I edit a topic?

11:49:04  <TrueBrain> 12 times

11:49:15  <Samu> nah, can't be, it's already at 27

11:49:24  <TrueBrain> file a bug report; should be 12

11:49:32  <Samu> :(

11:50:03  <Samu> there was a forum, i think battle.net that had a limit :(

11:50:26  <TrueBrain> in some existance, somewhere on the world wide web, it must hold true, that there was a forum, which had a limit

11:51:43  <Samu> https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1171159#p1171159 I'm updating this topic from time to time. Today was that time, I was only wondering if there's a limit

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11:54:53  <Samu> wormnest, your ai finished

11:54:58  <Samu> https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1171159#p1171159

11:55:20  <Samu> still need to uplaod screenshots

11:56:49  <Wormnest> Thanks Samu, looks like it´s doing pretty good

11:57:40  <Samu> after screenshots,i still have ships, aircraft and trains to test :( kinda boring to set everything up

11:57:50  <Samu> i know ships will take forever :(

11:58:33  <Wormnest> Oh well, it keeps you off the streets :p

12:11:39  <dihedral> Hello

12:13:14  <Samu> hi

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12:17:00  <Samu> there are still players who don't know how to loan :(

12:24:37  <Samu> i can see that the screenshot section is gonna be hard to navigate

12:24:46  <Samu> if i keep adding

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13:27:49  <TrueBrain> morning frosch123

13:27:51  <TrueBrain> RFC: https://devs.openttd.org/~truebrain/migration-draft.txt

13:27:58  <TrueBrain> any comments will go

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13:28:15  <frosch123> hoi

13:29:37  <LordAro> TrueBrain: gitlab isn't necessarily self-hosted

13:29:44  <TrueBrain> I am aware

13:29:59  <LordAro> also o/

13:30:33  <Flygon> Man.

13:30:38  <Flygon> LordAro forever lives in my mind.

13:30:44  <Flygon> It's that damned xkcd connection.

13:30:50  <LordAro> er

13:30:51  <LordAro> hi

13:31:19  <Flygon> Yeah I just realized I sounded creepy af sorry

13:31:20  <Flygon> x.x

13:31:23  <LordAro> ;)

13:41:49  <TrueBrain> LordAro: I cannot imagine that is all you have to comment on it, so what gives? :)

13:42:34  <LordAro> sorry, KSPing

13:42:52  <LordAro> i'll take another look

13:43:14  <TrueBrain> you were complaining it was not going quick enough here :P

13:46:05  <planetmaker> TrueBrain, the last point "server itself requires maintenace". You mean the HV, or what does it refer to?

13:47:02  <TrueBrain> yes

13:47:04  <TrueBrain> the physical server

13:47:45  <planetmaker> just curious: do we require more server power there, or what does need maintenance there?

13:47:54  <TrueBrain> OS upgrade

13:48:02  <planetmaker> ok... yeah, HV upgrade

13:48:02  <TrueBrain> we might want to move to other hardware soon-ish

13:48:06  <TrueBrain> (it is .. 5 years old now?)

13:48:18  <planetmaker> dunno... about yeah

13:48:24  <TrueBrain> and maybe worth considering, cloud

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13:48:51  <TrueBrain> maybe not for the CF, but possibly for things like website, BaNaNaS, etc

13:48:57  <TrueBrain> just so it becomes serverless

13:49:19  <planetmaker> cloud... isn't it just a fancy name for "a VM somewhere else"?

13:49:38  <TrueBrain> serverless, is mainly the part of cloud I would be interested in

13:49:43  <TrueBrain> just: here is some Python, you run it now

13:49:48  <TrueBrain> here are some HTML files, you run it now

13:52:10  <planetmaker> you still need all the access we have now, don't you?

13:52:26  <planetmaker> Just curious... not sure I get how that is supposed to work :)

13:52:28  <TrueBrain> what do you mean, 'access'?

13:52:38  <TrueBrain> say you have a website, HTML, Javascript, and CSS

13:52:39  <planetmaker> to the management of the services

13:52:43  <TrueBrain> do you care on what server it runs? What OS?

13:52:48  <planetmaker> no, I don't

13:52:53  <TrueBrain> you just want something to host those files, so others can access it

13:52:58  <TrueBrain> that is called serverless, in a nutshell

13:53:07  <TrueBrain> so the "cloud" takes care of that shit for you

13:53:12  <TrueBrain> including upgrades, maintaince, etc

13:53:17  <TrueBrain> you just want high availability

13:53:22  <TrueBrain> same goes for Python applications

13:53:35  <planetmaker> so... something like light-weight containers where several run parallel on the same  machine - we just don't care about the machine

13:53:36  <TrueBrain> I just want something to execute this Python 3.6 application

13:53:48  <planetmaker> just a separate login for us

13:53:52  <TrueBrain> I dont care if it is 1 machine, or 100 machines

13:53:57  <TrueBrain> I dont want to login to the machine

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13:54:05  <TrueBrain> I just want it to be :)

13:54:08  <planetmaker> well, you need to modify your own website ;)

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13:54:15  <TrueBrain> then you upload new files :)

13:54:29  <TrueBrain> for example, AWS

13:54:34  <TrueBrain> there you upload your files to S3

13:54:44  <TrueBrain> you tell some fancy thing: if something hits this URL, serve this file

13:54:50  <TrueBrain> if I want to update my file, I do so

13:54:52  <TrueBrain> that is it

13:55:13  <planetmaker> ok, ty

13:55:21  <planetmaker> got it, I guess

13:55:35  <TrueBrain> we are so used to worry about everything, from network connection, to location, to hardware, to OS, ...

13:55:47  <TrueBrain> but nowedays, it is no longer important :)

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13:55:57  <TrueBrain> and if AWS runs it on 10 machines, or on 1

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13:56:02  <TrueBrain> if he runs it in France, or in USA

13:56:10  <TrueBrain> who cares :D

13:56:19  <TrueBrain> (in reality, it runs in many places, sort of :P)

13:57:47  <frosch123> TrueBrain: https://paste.openttdcoop.org/phtmnjuv6

13:58:18  <TrueBrain> frosch123: difference between "1.7.2" and nightly are only the targets it runs for and the version it gets

13:58:25  <TrueBrain> the path is identical :)

13:58:57  <TrueBrain> you really want the CF to validate each PR, in general :)

13:59:39  <TrueBrain> (the testing part)

13:59:49  <frosch123> yes, but no publishing of binaries

14:00:11  <planetmaker> frosch123, compatibility also works for identical hashes iirc.

14:00:29  <TrueBrain> frosch123: ack

14:00:41  <TrueBrain> and we already support git for multiplayer

14:01:03  <planetmaker> just the version string needs to fit. And it needs to fit cross-platform. I recall there to be sometimes problems with different lengths of them at some stage - which declared them incompatible, but they were in fact built from the same source

14:01:45  <TrueBrain> frosch123: tnx a lot for feedback :) Just a bit unsure what you mean about the FF .. do you mean: we should do FF, or: we shouldn't? I am not sure we understood each other there

14:03:33  <frosch123> when pr are reviewed, usually you request changes. i would expect those changes to not be added on top, but to have the PR be rebased with adjusted commit contents

14:03:51  <TrueBrain> that is exactly the choices you have :)

14:03:59  <frosch123> so i expect PR to constantly get rebased

14:04:00  <TrueBrain> some people make a new commit with the fixes, and squash it at the end

14:04:05  <TrueBrain> others rebase

14:04:18  <TrueBrain> personally I think for starters enforcing FF is a good thing for OpenTTD

14:04:21  <TrueBrain> it is more "like SVN"

14:04:36  <TrueBrain> but if you look at Rust, they went overboard with allowing different flows :)

14:04:44  <TrueBrain> (and yes, I assumed all PRs are reviewed :P)

14:06:46  <frosch123> squash-at-the-end is still a kind of rebase

14:07:02  <TrueBrain> kinda; it mostly depends when the CI has a chance to do its validation

14:07:05  <TrueBrain> before merge or after

14:08:16  <TrueBrain> anyway, minor settings and stuff .. otherwise you agree with the idea?

14:09:07  <frosch123> yes, put as much into the cloud as possible :)

14:09:20  <TrueBrain> :D

14:09:25  <planetmaker> I guess we should do the same with the coop repos at some stage, too

14:09:35  <TrueBrain> you also agree with my summarization of the two requests you put down? :D

14:09:42  <frosch123> i also like the configuration of the farm (adding of jobs) via some vcs (if i got that right)

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14:10:06  <TrueBrain> I want everything to be controlable via git, yes .. so anyone with access is in control

14:10:21  <TrueBrain> and I would really like to be as much aspossible that you can run it on your local machine as well

14:11:00  <frosch123> about the goals: i keep wondering about the purpose of a "single main stable branch"

14:11:31  <TrueBrain> what else would you define as "official" OpenTTD?

14:11:32  <frosch123> as i see it the players separate into different interest groups, which follow conflicting goals

14:11:48  <TrueBrain> wouldnt that confuse a lot of players?

14:11:54  <planetmaker> well, players always had different interests, did they?

14:11:58  <TrueBrain> (serious question; I do not know the answer)

14:12:12  <frosch123> so i dream about "openttd for sandbox", "openttd for competive millenials", "openttd for wannabe economics students" :p

14:12:25  <TrueBrain> this concept does allow that

14:12:35  <frosch123> but i do not see a way to unify those goals into a single main branch anymore

14:12:36  <TrueBrain> you just never promote any fork to be "the only one" :P

14:12:37  <planetmaker> Having a single "official" branch is good to keep the project focused. But with so few people contributing, that's become a pretty difficult thing

14:13:15  <TrueBrain> possibly even demote the current trunk to be "official"

14:13:16  <frosch123> TrueBrain: it depends on how people discover ottd

14:13:22  <planetmaker> It means to make decisions - and sticking somewhat to that one decision. Taking the lead. It's a hard and possibly harsh decision .But you never can satisfy everyone

14:13:40  <frosch123> but as i see it, those who discover ottd via social networks already use inofficial clients

14:13:50  <TrueBrain> that is very true

14:15:38  <LordAro> https://github.com/SFTtech/openage/pulls might want to take a look at how openage guys do PRs as well

14:15:58  <LordAro> they like to go way overboard, with style checkers, copyright checkers and everything else all at the CI level

14:16:08  <LordAro> they made their own CI system to run it

14:16:19  <LordAro> and they also "enforce" rebasing, which is much nicer IMO

14:16:32  <TrueBrain> what is nice about FF, that your history is clean

14:16:32  <LordAro> rebasing PRs*

14:16:34  <TrueBrain> no stupid merge shit

14:16:58  <LordAro> but equally, FF makes it clear which commits are connected to which PR/author

14:17:14  <TrueBrain> but I am sure time will show a way :)

14:17:24  <frosch123> LordAro: both sounds good to me :) i stopped reading some fs patches just because the diff started with 3 whitespace changes :p

14:17:58  <LordAro> TrueBrain: https://github.com/SFTtech/openage/network e.g.

14:18:30  <TrueBrain> it is so silly OpenTTD still uses manual reviews :P

14:18:35  <TrueBrain> it is so old-fashioned :)

14:19:28  <frosch123> to add to the "multiple branches" thing: at work i never have any issue to decide what is the right thing to do, because the software has a scientific correct thing to do. but in a game there are arbitrary decisions

14:20:57  <TrueBrain> frosch123: any other active people that might have feedback on this?

14:21:04  <TrueBrain> or shall we just start making it happen?

14:21:34  <LordAro> might be an idea to put it on the forums?

14:21:43  <LordAro> i have no idea what goes on there these days

14:21:54  <planetmaker> what would the forums contribute?

14:22:02  <planetmaker> what could they?

14:22:24  <LordAro> well the people making all the "forks" that you think might have potential are there

14:23:05  <frosch123> TrueBrain: michi_cc and peter1138 are both git fanboys

14:23:26  <TrueBrain> LordAro: I think frosch123 should write some kind of manifesto about his ideas for OpenTTD

14:23:31  <TrueBrain> that might be more valuable

14:23:33  <frosch123> alberth is the only one i do not know about

14:23:41  <TrueBrain> I just build on 2 pilars from that :)

14:23:53  <LordAro> ah yeah, alberth hasn't been around

14:24:25  <frosch123> LordAro: i have not read forums in half a year :)

14:24:57  <planetmaker> aye... Alberth should have a say, I guess, being the 2nd most active after frosch?

14:26:29  <frosch123> TrueBrain: https://wiki.openttd.org/FAQ_development#What_are_the_goals_of_the_offical_branch.3F <- that used to be my manifesto for the stable branch. but it only works for people who know ttd from their childhood. i do not see anyone join based on that :)

14:27:01  <TrueBrain> so extend on it? :)

14:27:11  <TrueBrain> that can still stand ofc, but the thing following becomes more imrpotant now :)

14:35:04  <TrueBrain> anyway, I will make some things happen on my side; mostly look into how to populate GitHub with both the right issues and the right commits/branches

14:39:15  <TrueBrain> frosch123: I think it might also be worth in talking to orudge; would be nice if every fork could get his own subforum to talk about it

14:39:23  <TrueBrain> 1 thread per fork is abit ..annoying :D

14:40:33  <Wolf01> It's already difficult to get people to talk on a single thread... maybe a "forks" subforum

14:41:06  <TrueBrain> I would really go 1 subforum per fork, but that is just me :)

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14:45:19  <Wolf01> Magnet lost its attraction.

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14:47:34  <Wolf01> Are we all again?

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14:47:56  <TrueBrain> what is funny about this channel.. even after years (read: 10+), there are still ~100 people in here

14:47:57  <TrueBrain> :P

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14:48:08  <Wolf01> :D

14:48:24  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: go read https://devs.openttd.org/~truebrain/migration-draft.txt ; let me know what you think :P

14:48:54  <Wolf01> The nice part is that of those 100, the active ones are like 10-15

14:49:31  * andythenorth reads

14:50:02  <Wolf01> I've never seen some of them talking, and I'm here since 2004 plus or minus a month

14:50:24  <TrueBrain> @seen Bjarni

14:50:24  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 6 years, 20 weeks, 2 days, 13 hours, 31 minutes, and 18 seconds ago: <Bjarni> heh

14:50:36  <TrueBrain> wen can always use DorpsGek to find out who never said anything :P

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14:55:02  <andythenorth> ok so for main, PR -> CI -> build

14:55:13  <andythenorth> also -> publish

14:56:02  <TrueBrain> build and publish is optional from PR

14:57:20  <andythenorth> so I can make forks that include my crypto-miner? o_O

14:57:26  <TrueBrain> you can

14:57:33  <andythenorth> and users will think it's 'official-ish'

14:57:41  <TrueBrain> ish, yes

14:57:44  <andythenorth> hmm, actually they don't believe NRT is official-ish

14:57:54  <andythenorth> I had real hard time convincing people it wasn't a hokey fork

14:58:08  <andythenorth> probably all fine

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15:02:01  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: all looks good to me

15:02:07  <andythenorth> I can't answer the git unknowns

15:02:12  <TrueBrain> cool; tnx :)

15:02:15  <TrueBrain> nah, we will figure that out :)

15:02:19  <andythenorth> but I would like to help with website and Bananas rebuild

15:02:43  <andythenorth> I don't see why website isn't mostly static tbh

15:02:52  <andythenorth> it's not doing much

15:03:03  <TrueBrain> indeed

15:05:14  <andythenorth> bananas seems too hard to work on afaict

15:05:28  <andythenorth> frosch123 made a VM to at least make dev possible

15:05:39  <andythenorth> but it seems a clunky way to dev / deploy

15:07:26  <TrueBrain> yeah .. I would consider making it a cloud solution

15:07:32  <TrueBrain> guess we need to email AWS what they can do for us :)

15:09:32  <andythenorth> the challenge in web dev is always building the app :(

15:09:38  <andythenorth> either for dev, or in production

15:15:56  <TrueBrain> meh; a while ago I rebuild openttd.org in Angular .. just to realise it demanded you have Javascript .. which is silly for a page like openttd.org

15:16:11  <TrueBrain> never got to it looking further into that

15:16:29  <andythenorth> it's a solved problewm

15:16:39  <andythenorth> just have to have the argument about which framework :P

15:16:57  <andythenorth> there are 3 or 4 perfectly good python web frameworks

15:17:31  <TrueBrain> I just said Angular :P

15:17:37  <TrueBrain> nothing to do with Python :)

15:17:56  <TrueBrain> the dynamic part was trivial :)

15:19:28  <peter1138> hi

15:21:49  <andythenorth> I don't javascript :P

15:21:56  <andythenorth> it's kind of a principle

15:23:26  <TrueBrain> that is why you TypeScript these days!

15:23:38  <TrueBrain> for BaNaNaS itself Angular would be a really solid solution

15:23:41  <TrueBrain> with a decent API behind it

15:23:46  <TrueBrain> rewrite musa to use the API too

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15:24:45  <TrueBrain> but like I said .. I see a lot of benefit for writing it in the cloud, but I guess we need to investigate that ;)

15:28:50  <LordAro> TrueBrain: boo, angular

15:28:51  <LordAro> hiss

15:28:52  <LordAro> etc

15:29:00  <TrueBrain> and now with any valid argument?

15:29:10  <LordAro> i dislike javascript

15:29:16  <LordAro> its usage should be minimised

15:29:19  <TrueBrain> that is not an argument ;)

15:29:25  <LordAro> :p

15:29:25  <TrueBrain> and again, Angular is TypeScript

15:29:30  <TrueBrain> huge difference

15:29:44  <andythenorth> there's never an objective argument about web frameworks

15:29:46  <TrueBrain> mostly people saying stuff like that to me, never did anything with it :) But that is just my experience :)

15:29:48  <LordAro> JS-only sites tend to be really bad for accessibility purposes as well

15:29:49  <andythenorth> it's just editor wars again

15:30:03  <andythenorth> my objection is that I lost 4 days of my life to JS in 2001

15:30:10  <LordAro> and they're usually blank when JS is turned off

15:30:17  <LordAro> andythenorth: only 4?

15:30:21  <andythenorth> trying to make something work we'd sold, that couldn't be made to work

15:30:53  <andythenorth> I have nothing objective

15:31:05  <Samu> testing aircraft!

15:31:17  <TrueBrain> taking a poop!

15:31:33  <andythenorth> infringing infosec!

15:35:56  <Wolf01> I still prefer using PHP and a little of JS when really necessary (ajax stuff) :P

15:36:38  <TrueBrain> these days I really like writing a solid backend, and writing a frontend totally separate from it .. via a well defined API ..

15:36:46  <TrueBrain> also nice to write mobile apps against

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15:37:17  <TrueBrain> also why it is very unlikely I would be using Django again for any project of mine

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15:39:22  <Wolf01> I would go with Symfony + Angular on my projects

15:39:27  <planetmaker> you seem to prefer to write new and then discard maintenance as "it's a pile of cruft" :P

15:40:29  <TrueBrain> the chances of any code base not touched for 12 years being any decent, is very very very slim in general, yes :)

15:40:30  * planetmaker seeks cover

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15:43:39  <andythenorth> I am switching to this for website backends https://www.contentful.com/

15:43:50  <andythenorth> there's a free developer edition

15:44:10  <TrueBrain> how much did they pay you to link that?

15:44:15  <TrueBrain> not sure if we should kick you now or not :P

15:44:29  <Wolf01> :D

15:44:35  <LordAro> clearly should just use rails

15:44:46  <andythenorth> I am paying them :(

15:44:51  <TrueBrain> as everyone should use dead langauges :P (did I say that out loud? :P)

15:45:03  <andythenorth> can I get a discount for affiliate referrals?

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15:45:56  <Wolf01> o/

15:45:57  <LordAro> o/

15:46:51  <TrueBrain> Alberth / peter1138: https://devs.openttd.org/~truebrain/migration-draft.txt <- any comments?

15:47:05  <LordAro> Alberth: there's a fair bit of scrollback for you to go through :)

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15:56:29  <Alberth> @logs

15:56:29  <DorpsGek> Alberth: https://webster.openttdcoop.org/index.php?channel=openttd

16:12:40  <Alberth> TrueBrain: seems fine to me

16:13:04  <Alberth> I ownder if we should use more github, eg markdownify the wiki

16:14:02  <TrueBrain> you want to migrate the current wiki? Or do I misunderstand you here? :)

16:14:10  <LordAro> something to consider afterwards, i'd say

16:14:25  <andythenorth> frosch was quite strongly in favour of keeping a wiki format

16:14:33  <andythenorth> and leaving documentation mostly with users

16:14:58  <Alberth> ok, just a thought

16:15:14  <TrueBrain> we can move important pages :D

16:15:20  <TrueBrain> it can in theory also host the webpage :P

16:15:21  <andythenorth> I proposed killing the wiki, because I don't like wikis :)

16:15:30  <andythenorth> I dislike 'untidy' :(

16:15:46  <TrueBrain> your OCD should not keep others from enjoying it :)

16:15:49  <andythenorth> did github kill 'pages'?

16:16:07  <andythenorth> there was some thing where you could host static websites based on markdown or so

16:16:13  <andythenorth> but I think it died

16:16:18  <TrueBrain> github can host your pages :P

16:16:25  <LordAro> static stuff only though

16:16:29  <andythenorth> https://pages.github.com/

16:16:29  <Alberth> don't know what pages are, but isn't there github.io things?

16:16:37  <LordAro> same thing

16:17:18  <Alberth> multiple, more dedicated versions seems like a nice idea

16:17:27  <andythenorth> I should move my newgrf projects to github

16:17:36  <andythenorth> but then I have to reinvent coop infra

16:18:20  <Alberth> can't you push a build result to coop?

16:18:34  <TrueBrain> Alberth: I am very curious if that is what people want; but worth the try :)

16:18:59  <TrueBrain> and having a normal 2018-type code-review workflow would benefit the project for sure :P

16:19:59  <Alberth> perhaps not, both cirdan and jgr mostly do openttd+stuff

16:20:36  <Alberth> but one could make a version that drops all old crap :p

16:20:44  <andythenorth> I could only push a build result to coop if I had a build farm :). But the build farm is coop

16:20:44  <Alberth> have a sane base set

16:21:00  <Alberth> gh has build stuff too

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16:21:23  <Alberth> travis, i think it's called

16:21:39  <LordAro> has anyone given any thought to bringing jgr & cirdan on as devs?

16:21:51  <LordAro> Alberth: travis is one option, there are several

16:22:05  <LordAro> could use existing bamboo stuff in the meantime

16:23:40  <LordAro> the first step as i see it is to migrate issues to github

16:23:46  <LordAro> that can be done even if github all falls through

16:24:26  <Alberth> tbh I don't know why one would bother porting the issues imho

16:24:55  <Alberth> just store them in a repo or a subdir, or even just forget about them

16:25:17  <LordAro> we're pretty sure that github would autolink the stuff in the commit messages

16:25:38  <LordAro> but eh, i guess it's a low priority thing

16:28:37  <Alberth> it won't link the old issues, not in the last place as git has a somewhat different revision numbering scheme

16:30:14  <LordAro> well no, but #nnnn will get linked

16:30:35  <LordAro> (maybe, the FS#nnnn might not)

16:30:40  <LordAro> anyway, bikeshedding

16:49:12  <andythenorth> we should boatshed instead

16:49:15  * andythenorth boatshedding

16:56:09  <Alberth> just add boat pixels!

17:01:14  <TrueBrain> You have to bump the issue to at least the number of FS, otherwise GitHub will falsely link issues to commits

17:01:23  <TrueBrain> doing that is as much effort as importing them, so meh

17:05:27  <supermop> yo

17:10:15  <Alberth> o/

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17:21:44  <Samu> what are the chances of random ai rolling CluelessPlus twice in a row? out of 42 AIs? :(

17:22:26  <LordAro> @calc 1/(42*42)

17:22:26  <DorpsGek> LordAro: 0.000566893424036

17:23:00  <Samu> sometimes I wonder how random is random

17:23:00  <andythenorth> somehow

17:23:07  <andythenorth> I made it fun to draw boats

17:23:10  <andythenorth> that was unexpected

17:23:19  <Wolf01> https://m.rebrickable.com/media/cache/ea/d0/ead03a88021ca22ee9a916c58f3128cb.jpg?1512914779.7469342 nice

17:23:44  <andythenorth> such chibi

17:23:48  <Wolf01> https://rebrickable.com/users/Echaton/mocs/

17:24:06  <Wolf01> They look really good

17:24:29  <andythenorth> Wolf01: stay out of trains :P

17:24:32  <andythenorth> it's a tarpit

17:24:34  <Wolf01> :D

17:25:12  <Wolf01> I have some more chibi things to make, don't worry, I don't have space or time for trains now

17:25:46  <andythenorth> https://www.flickr.com/photos/andythenorth/sets/72157644406618728

17:26:55  <andythenorth> so

17:27:15  <Alberth> andy has a tarpit right at home :p

17:27:18  <andythenorth> ships that are 128px in – direction consistently flicker

17:27:24  <andythenorth> this is inevitable?

17:32:44  <supermop> make them articulated?

17:35:45  <andythenorth> lol

17:36:01  <andythenorth> are bounding boxes real?

17:36:04  <andythenorth> or a myth?

17:36:25  <andythenorth> my assumption is the spritesorter needs to know the dimensions of a sprite

17:37:42  <supermop> can you abuse sprite stacks?

17:38:29  <supermop> for each chunk of ship to be its own sprite

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17:40:18  <andythenorth> wondering

17:40:48  <andythenorth> oops

17:40:53  <andythenorth> crashed OpenTTD....again

17:43:06  <Wolf01> Don't report crashes by changing grfs ingame ;)

17:48:38  <andythenorth> lol

17:51:48  <andythenorth> so what's left in NRT then?

17:51:54  <andythenorth> is it trunk candidate yet?

17:52:11  <andythenorth> it's not lilke trunk has never included anything unfinished, or with bugs :)

17:54:50  <Wolf01> Imho it works

17:55:33  <supermop> poles in the middle of the road

17:56:09  <supermop> nml binary with town roads

17:56:11  <andythenorth> Wolf01: GS and AI support?

17:56:24  <andythenorth> supermop: I don't know how to make a Windows binary, sorry

17:56:31  <Wolf01> GS and AI will need to be tweaked

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17:56:54  <Wolf01> Also the game code might need a bit of work

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18:21:36  <Gustavo6046> Guys

18:22:04  <Gustavo6046> Does covering more of a city (using station joining) increase the influx of passengers?

18:29:58  <Alberth> why don't you simply try it?

18:38:12  <frosch123> supermop: https://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/nml-nrt-17ba2b7-win32.zip <- town road choice branch

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18:53:20  <supermop> ooh

18:54:39  <supermop> Wolf01: can you remind me how it works? what is the name of the property?

18:56:38  <andythenorth> https://github.com/andythenorth/nml-andythenorth/commit/17ba2b7bed6d487b71ecd5ad79f4b1447db7efb0

18:56:40  <andythenorth> supermop: ^

18:56:59  <supermop> lower is better?

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19:02:36  <andythenorth> I would have expected higher is better

19:02:43  <andythenorth> dunno :)

19:02:46  <supermop> lets test

19:03:01  <supermop> i have dirt at 8, stone at 4 and asphalt at 2

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19:06:59  <supermop> hmmm

19:11:57  <supermop> unkown action 0 property 0x1e

19:12:04  <supermop> disabling unspooled

19:14:55  <supermop> is that the town weight property?

19:15:31  <supermop> looks like it

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19:15:43  <supermop> this is last nights NRT build...

19:16:19  <frosch123> ask Wolf01

19:16:44  <supermop> maybe i need a branch other than nrt nightly

19:17:00  <supermop> nml doesn't complain

19:18:11  <planetmaker> andythenorth, I guess you're right with moving newgrf repos to github. We should start migrating that

19:18:35  <planetmaker> and the build repo can be made to interact with basically any repo. It simply needs configuring the proper source

19:18:43  <andythenorth> planetmaker: so we could keep bundles? o_O

19:18:51  <frosch123> planetmaker: eints cannot push to remote

19:18:52  <supermop> andythenorth: Wolf01: is the nrt nightly compatible with town weight?

19:19:14  <andythenorth> supermop: no

19:19:15  <frosch123> hmm, otoh, it just needs a github account

19:19:17  <planetmaker> dunno, it can also push elsewhere. Jenkins itself is quite autonomous. bundles is for it "just a server"

19:19:36  <supermop> ok well that explains the error

19:19:53  <planetmaker> though the server currently is kinda included as file system

19:20:10  <andythenorth> I was just thinking to reduce maintenance burden

19:20:27  <andythenorth> when devzone repo access breaks, it relies on frosch or spike

19:20:36  <frosch123> currently it works :p

19:20:40  <planetmaker> :D

19:20:50  <andythenorth> leave it until next major break?

19:21:08  <frosch123> until after ottd is migrated?

19:21:11  <planetmaker> the flaky thing is the web interface... ssh is much more robust

19:21:12  <andythenorth> no gain in looking for work

19:21:39  <frosch123> planetmaker: i switched the cron job to just restart before the eints push :p

19:21:44  <planetmaker> :D

19:21:50  <planetmaker> like it

19:22:03  <frosch123> the vm is just too small

19:22:17  <frosch123> it runs out of memory when someone downloads a zip bundle from rhodecode or something

19:22:37  <supermop> andythenorth: so should i send you this spool version to test?

19:22:53  <andythenorth> supermop: you'd need a windows binary?

19:23:17  <andythenorth> what we need is a new compile farm :)

19:23:22  <supermop> yes, but if you want to test it in my stead could just send to you

19:23:22  <andythenorth> that builds more branches

19:23:33  <andythenorth> I don't actually know much about it

19:23:40  <andythenorth> it's a Wolf01 idea :)

19:24:27  <supermop> ok

19:40:47  <andythenorth> I finished 5 ships :)

19:41:13  <andythenorth> just 24 more to go

19:46:53  <Samu> how do I generate a nice @listfile on windows?

19:53:47  <supermop> Wolf01: do you want to test these roads?

19:54:11  <Samu> anyway, i'm bored and decided to compress an mp3 using the best file compressor in existance

19:54:20  <Samu> what am I gonna expect

19:55:11  <Samu> paq8px archiver v138 (C) 2018, Matt Mahoney et al.

19:55:38  <Samu> the archiver now requires a @filelist

19:55:44  <Samu> i have no idea how to generate one nicely

19:55:59  <Samu> or @listfile

19:56:36  <Samu> well, forget it, it's not openttd related

19:56:45  <Cubey> Are you just talking about a list of filenames?

19:56:56  <Samu> yes, but also pathnames

19:57:01  <Samu> recursive

19:57:09  <Samu> not full pathnames though

19:57:53  <Cubey> Full pathnames wouldn't work? I guess you could remove the unneeded part of the path with a simple find and replace

19:58:18  <Cubey> dir /s/b

19:58:24  <Samu> also, windows filenames may contain spaces

19:58:41  <Samu> it fails to find files with space :(

19:59:52  <Samu> if the file is enclosed with "", like "file with spaces"

20:00:03  <Samu> it can compress, but i dunno how to generate such filelist

20:00:29  <Cubey> dir /s/b > listfile.txt and then find and replace away the parts of the paths with spaces

20:01:48  <andythenorth> hmm

20:02:02  <andythenorth> http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/unsinkable-sam/push/LATEST/docs/html/static/img/livestock_carrier_large.png

20:02:07  <andythenorth> supermop: not feeling that sprite

20:02:11  <andythenorth> http://photos.marinetraffic.com/ais/showphoto.aspx?photoid=2785623

20:02:14  <andythenorth> http://www.shipspotting.com/gallery/photo.php?lid=2290784

20:02:22  <andythenorth> I think the 2CC upper works doesn't work

20:03:03  <andythenorth> variants in the spritesheet http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/unsinkable-sam/repository/entry/src/graphics/ships/livestock_carrier_large_template.png

20:03:07  <andythenorth> needs more work though eh?

20:03:34  <frosch123> make some of the cages blue?

20:04:01  <frosch123> or maybe all of them

20:04:10  <frosch123> cages blend in with the hull currently

20:04:23  <andythenorth> yeah

20:04:36  <andythenorth> they could be white, but then it's a lot of white

20:04:46  <andythenorth> might look like a ferry :P

20:05:09  <planetmaker> the cages could be rusty-brown

20:05:20  <frosch123> or add some bigs and cows walking on the roof?

20:05:26  <frosch123> *pigs

20:05:37  <planetmaker> indeed... do they need a roof? :)

20:06:32  <frosch123> also some life buoys for them

20:06:51  <andythenorth> :P

20:07:32  <andythenorth> in iron horse, they have more contrast http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/iron-horse/push/LATEST/docs/html/static/img/livestock_car_pony_gen_5C.png

20:12:23  <Gustavo6046> http://i.imgur.com/37IwRNT.png I quit

20:12:33  <Gustavo6046> I suck at railways

20:21:54  <Samu> is that an AI?

20:25:48  <supermop> i think it needs to look like it has decks/levels andy

20:31:04  <Eddi|zuHause> you suck at making png screenshots

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20:50:01  <andythenorth> http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/unsinkable-sam/push/LATEST/docs/html/static/img/livestock_carrier_large.png

20:50:10  <andythenorth> I like it more, and it references Horse a lot

20:50:26  <andythenorth> I might need to knock out the doors in the hull

20:50:55  <andythenorth> it shares the same base hull sprite as http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/unsinkable-sam/push/LATEST/docs/html/static/img/piece_goods_carrier_large.png

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21:03:00  <Samu> the mp3 file was compressed from 16,7 MB (17.604.608 bytes) to 14,2 MB (14.910.279 bytes)

21:03:06  <Samu> impressive

21:10:28  <TrueBrain> the existance of mp3s? Yes

21:14:28  <LordAro> probably simpler to decrease the bitrate

21:14:59  <TrueBrain> simpler is taking a piss, tbh :)

21:15:31  <Gustavo6046> Samu, that is me

21:16:05  <Gustavo6046> TrueBrain, OGG if you really need intense compression

21:16:08  <andythenorth> http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/unsinkable-sam/push/v6629-228/docs/html/static/img/livestock_carrier_large.png

21:16:13  <andythenorth> oops

21:16:15  <andythenorth> same as last

21:16:16  <Gustavo6046> FLAC can also be easily compressed without destroying the audio quality.

21:16:20  <andythenorth> http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/unsinkable-sam/push/LATEST/docs/html/static/img/livestock_carrier_large.png

21:19:21  <Gustavo6046> The best way to compress audio would be to divide it into chunks, do a weighted moving average on then and then interpolate them.

21:19:24  <Gustavo6046> And

21:19:51  <supermop> best way is listen to no recorded music, only live concerts

21:20:01  <Gustavo6046> for each of these chunks, we define a finer modulation map.

21:20:11  <Gustavo6046> supermop, I'm not talking about music

21:20:17  <Gustavo6046> I'm talking about digital audio in general

21:20:47  <TrueBrain> so white noise

21:20:49  <TrueBrain> brown noise

21:20:57  <TrueBrain> my sister crying

21:22:21  <andythenorth> why did you make your sister cry TrueBrain ?

21:22:22  <andythenorth> sounds mean

21:22:32  <TrueBrain> I made her read this chat

21:22:35  <TrueBrain> *owh snap*

21:23:53  <glx> it's not the worse subject in this chat :)

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21:34:58  <Eddi|zuHause> i found the reason why the website broke...

21:35:28  <Eddi|zuHause> https://www.twitch.tv/videos/231667653 <-- around 1:38:30 he announces "search for openttd", and a minute later "oh... we broke it :p"

21:35:45  <Eddi|zuHause> that was thursday evening

21:35:59  <glx> usual reason for the website to fall :)

21:36:15  <TrueBrain> sorry to disapoint, that was not "the reason" :P

21:38:19  <Eddi|zuHause> well, it's certainly plausible that when the biggest german youtuber says the name of a website in a stream which 20-40k people watch, that website might go down quickly :p

21:38:36  <TrueBrain> honestly, we had worse over the years

21:39:09  <TrueBrain> and both times around the time django stopped working, the traffic was not unusual

21:39:38  <TrueBrain> all I could find, that it blocked on an IO operation ...

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22:09:52  <Eddi|zuHause> looks like you need a watchdog to kill it if blocked

22:10:03  <TrueBrain> it happened now 3 times in 2 years ...

22:10:07  <TrueBrain> I mean ...

22:10:21  <TrueBrain> I rather have an upgrade to something non-django-1.2 than a watchdog :D

22:10:47  <Eddi|zuHause> i have no clue about that :p

22:11:18  <TrueBrain> https://devs.openttd.org/~truebrain/migration-draft.txt is a good start ;)

22:11:34  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think i want to have a clue :p

22:13:54  <TrueBrain> and I guess that is part of the problem ;)

22:26:20  <frosch123> hmm, i don't like the inserters-compress-belts change

22:27:17  <LordAro> :o

22:27:53  <frosch123> there was this technique to put slightly faster belts in front of inserters which do the compresing

22:28:33  <frosch123> i considered that really smart

22:28:54  <frosch123> actually, it still looks better than the inserter stopping movement... so i'll keep doing it :)

22:33:01  <supermop> hmm i wonder why my highway doesn't use the bridge overlays i want it to

22:37:30  <supermop> oh

22:37:40  <supermop> ok i figured it out

22:38:09  <andythenorth> bye

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22:57:10  <supermop> is there no way to draw different road underlay or overlay for level crossings?

22:58:36  <supermop> oh its on the to-do

22:59:57  <frosch123> most level crossing stuff is already provided by the railtype

23:00:07  <frosch123> so, it's more a rail thing

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23:46:23  <supermop> frosch123: i wanted to add stripes before the crossing on some road types

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