IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2018-02-04
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00:32:31 <nielsm> hi I'm toying around with making a patch that adds a "cargo-tiles delivered" statistic to vehicles, as an alternate measure of vehicle usefulness than profit
00:33:17 <nielsm> the basic idea being that while vehicles in slow legs on feeder routes can end up showing a "false loss", it's still useful to know whether they're actually moving cargo around
00:35:31 <nielsm> (my dream is to replace the "min profit" component of performance rating with something that can actually be achieved when playing with cargodist for passengers, without making unrealistic routes where buses never link up with planes, etc.)
00:36:26 <nielsm> does this sound viable/something worth keep working on?
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05:51:44 <Flygon> I'm suppose to be working on productive stuff but
05:51:51 <Flygon> My body just really wants to OpenTTD.
06:13:36 <Flygon> I use My Documents so infrequently, I forget OpenTTD actually uses it.
06:14:01 <Flygon> I keep looking inside all my internal non-My Documents areas to find wherre OTTD stores stuff because it never occurs to me any application actually uses that stuff. :V
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10:49:08 <nielsm> I guess I should repost, since everyone seemed to be asleep last night :) I've been toying with a patch that adds a new statistic to vehicles, "cargo-tiles delivered", as an alternate measure of usefulness than profit
10:49:56 <nielsm> especially meant for passenger networks with cargodist, because of the "wrong" profits the transfer credits system induce
10:52:57 <nielsm> my dream is to replace the "min profit" component of the performance rating calculation with something that's actually achievable when you hook buses up on the end of aircraft etc., but I realise that could be very controversial
10:53:23 <nielsm> does any of this sound like a good idea, worth pursuing further?
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12:00:00 <Wolf01> Firefox became shit, uninstalled :|
12:02:42 <LordAro> most people have been very happy with the new update (57)
12:02:52 <LordAro> other than it breaking existing extensions
12:03:32 <Wolf01> It updated to 58 because I'm stupid and forgot to disable the autoupdate, missing 2 extensions I really need, missing the old about:home, reinstalling 56 has broken theme and icons
12:04:44 <Wolf01> Now I can't even find a reliable way to open the bookmarks on a new tab
12:05:00 <LordAro> not "become shit" by my definitions, but sure whatever
12:05:13 <Wolf01> (and no, I won't right click and open on new tab)
12:05:43 <nielsm> if you installed an old version after having had a new one, and didn't delete your profile/restore it from a backup, that's your mistake
12:06:04 <nielsm> don't expect old versions to work on a profile that was touched by a new one
12:07:16 <Wolf01> Eh, I don't have any recent backup of the profile, last time I did it when I moved to this pc, it could have warned to backup before updating automagically breaking everything
12:08:13 <LordAro> why should it? not like they expect people to downgrade
12:08:31 <Wolf01> I could try to cherry pick the profile data on a clean profile
12:09:41 <Wolf01> nielsm: I had that on never check updates, but I restored FF because of a problem and it set it to automatically update, then it broke everything
12:10:38 <Eddi|zuHause> well, plenty of other browsers in the sea
12:10:47 <Wolf01> Yes, using Edge right now
12:11:05 <Eddi|zuHause> i heard someone recommend vivaldi
12:11:15 <Wolf01> The problem is that most of the bookmarks weren't imported
12:11:29 <Eddi|zuHause> (a chromium-derivate by the opera developer)
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12:11:49 <Wolf01> I don't like chrome or anything derivated
12:12:25 <Eddi|zuHause> (so basically an opera-rewrite on a new backend)
12:19:29 <Eddi|zuHause> why does the NRT thread spend a whole page discussing HAUL fallback when that's a one-liner?
12:20:04 <LordAro> bikeshedding is an important part of any development process
12:20:49 <Eddi|zuHause> also, there's snow outside...
12:21:08 <Wolf01> Here is sunny and cold
12:22:13 <Eddi|zuHause> what's italian "cold" in numbers?
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13:02:12 <Wolf01> Ha! The bastard, it starts to download the update when you create a new profile, then you exit, start it with your own profile (which has updates disabled) and it continues to download the update and BAM! there's the update
13:02:39 <Wolf01> So if you don't want the update and you have multiple profiles you are doomed
13:10:44 <Samu> i just found a patch rejected
13:11:08 <Samu> wondering how i can search for all rejected patches, they're hidden :(
13:11:29 <Samu> found this one cus i got the link for it
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13:12:37 <Samu> Alberth reasoning for closing it is strange anyway. It is already how it works for NPF
13:13:01 <Samu> but whatever, must search more hidden tasks
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13:14:47 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you should disallow it from accessing the internet :p
13:18:39 <Wolf01> Now I'm cleaning the prefs.js file to remove all the shit 58 put in it
13:23:31 <Samu> meh, andythenorth was closing bugs :(
13:27:57 <Samu> can i request Re-open or will ppl get mad because i did that?
13:28:19 <Wolf01> You can request to reopen if the reason is valid
13:28:25 <Samu> andythenorth failed to reproduce a bug, and i just reproduced it
13:29:29 <Samu> maybe my explaination sucks
13:34:56 <Samu> whoever accepted request
13:38:05 <Wolf01> I think the UI checks between 0-13 instead of 1-14, as 0 is the server-player
13:38:27 <Wolf01> And 14 are the possible clients/ais
13:38:54 <Samu> it's a gui display vs network
13:39:37 <Samu> in single player there is no issue
13:39:44 <nielsm> okay why is my vehicle list sorting function producing seemingly random orderings, when the data it's based on displays correctly and deterministically
13:40:26 <nielsm> (the sorter even got into an infinite loop before, because of the nondeterminism)
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14:04:30 <Wolf01> Mmmh, still the same problem with FF... unable to open any of the extension options
14:07:02 <andythenorth> maybe I should stop playing tanks
14:10:52 <Wolf01> Ok, it seem that uninstalling and reinstalling the extensions fixed the problem
14:12:10 <nielsm> ah figured out why things weren't sorting right, signedness mistakes and sign extension to 64 bit broke things
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14:20:03 <nielsm> yep there it is, vehicles sorted by amount of cargo-miles delivered over potential cargo-miles delivered, i.e. capacity utilization: http://0x0.st/sbCp.png
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14:30:45 <andythenorth> Wolf01: I stopped with tanks
14:30:54 <andythenorth> didn't delete it, but no games for a bit
14:31:47 <andythenorth> I want to stop thinking about NRT :P
14:31:54 <andythenorth> then I can do some newgrf
14:32:01 <andythenorth> just the SE bug fix?
14:32:15 <andythenorth> and figuring it out if anyone will merge to trunk
14:32:30 <andythenorth> what's the SE bug?
14:32:34 <andythenorth> I'll repro it locally
14:32:38 <Wolf01> You can't build tramways on SE
14:33:14 <Wolf01> Yes, since you merged the branch with the fix, now you can
14:33:49 <andythenorth> ok I've updated the github issue
14:35:22 <Wolf01> Or do you want the no-junctions flag too?
14:35:41 <andythenorth> I added it to 'future'
14:36:24 <Wolf01> Put a space between [ ] or it won't work
14:37:57 <Wolf01> Ok, we'll need to stop that discussion about HAUL+HEQS in NRT topic, I'll add some testing requests
14:40:16 <andythenorth> I'm putting a post into thread Wolf01
14:40:41 <Wolf01> Already doing that, what would you write?
14:41:20 <andythenorth> I'm being dumb, but no-houses does use the correct bit?
14:41:27 <andythenorth> I didn't read the ottd code
14:42:21 <Wolf01> Bits are: catenary, level crossings, no-houses
14:42:58 <andythenorth> it's untested :P
14:43:12 <andythenorth> supermop_work_ might make us a test case :)
14:43:48 <Wolf01> supermop_work_ might fix asphalt road too
14:44:41 <Wolf01> So I don't get a mini heart attack every time I fail to convert a road
14:49:07 <andythenorth> I'm guessing NRT is pretty untested in MP
14:49:16 <andythenorth> no evidence, but I'd bet on it
14:50:44 <Samu> solved the misterious "why u no grow for no reason"
14:54:39 <Wolf01> Ok, made a testing wishlist
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14:56:30 <andythenorth> I do newgrf ship pixels
14:56:36 <andythenorth> unless we want to make flat docks?
14:57:10 <Wolf01> Flat docks need peter support
14:58:26 <Wolf01> We'll get 2 birds with 1 stone, multitile docks with newgrf support like railstations and buildable everywhere, so they can look as you want
14:59:37 <Wolf01> Or better: non track tile stations where you just place 1 tile in water with "ship can dock here"
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15:00:26 <Wolf01> *in water or in front of water
15:11:32 <Wolf01> Hmmmm I think there is still the "bug" reported by adf88, I wonder if is possible to handle that situation in the grf or it needs an actual change in the code
15:15:42 <andythenorth> is that new to NRT?
15:15:55 <andythenorth> he wants it to turn?
15:16:16 <Wolf01> Yes, he turns without a track
15:16:50 <andythenorth> we could draw the return loop if the next tile isn't compatible :P
15:16:55 <andythenorth> but sounds like headache
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16:20:12 <Samu> i just dowloaded rat stuff
16:20:41 <Samu> openttd-ratt-g186b12b9-road-and-tram-types-windows-win64
16:21:09 <Samu> gonna try see what AIs do with it
16:29:22 <andythenorth> no AI support yet eh?
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17:10:04 <Samu> oops, sorry, my system is unstable
17:10:33 <Samu> it all points to being the vga card
17:10:44 <Samu> a red vga led shows up on the mother board
17:11:03 <Samu> i'm kinda pissed off already, it's been doing this for a week already
17:11:40 <andythenorth> my system is unstable
17:11:46 <andythenorth> it all points to...
17:11:51 <andythenorth> ...who knows, it's Apple :P
17:19:11 <Samu> i loaded a savegame, and bad stuff happens to roads
17:19:21 <Samu> just load a 1.7.2 savegame
17:20:26 <Samu> i loaded another, and now i get worse, an assert
17:20:33 <Samu> --------------------------- Error! --------------------------- Assertion failed at line 2996 of ..\src\station_cmd.cpp: road_rti != NULL && tram_rti == NULL --------------------------- OK ---------------------------
17:20:51 <Wolf01> Are you playing with AIs?
17:23:01 <Wolf01> Maybe there's a problem drawing catenary on a drive-in road stop
17:23:35 <Wolf01> I've already seen that problem
17:24:19 <Wolf01> It shouldn't happen, maybe trunk uses some of the bits on the tramtype
17:25:12 <Samu> could it be using wrong sprites?
17:25:43 <Wolf01> No, that's a case where NRT finds roadbits/trambits where they shouldn't be
17:28:24 <Wolf01> Yes, there's a problem
17:30:31 <Samu> starting 14 AIs that build roads, let's hope my system doesnt hang
17:32:26 <Samu> well, many ais are unable to build
17:33:18 <Samu> can't find suitable station is what the logs are saying
17:33:25 <Samu> they're not able to build stations?
17:33:29 <Wolf01> Uhm, 1.7.2 savegame seem to have a "2:15 roadtype" which sould be "invalid_roadtype"
17:35:29 <Samu> OtviAI also built roads and stations
17:35:42 <Samu> guess u wanna know that too, right?
17:36:31 <Wolf01> If one AI is able to build stations, other should too
17:36:50 <Wolf01> Unless they don't use special ways to do that
17:37:15 <Samu> AroAI did build roads, stations and buses
17:37:46 <Samu> AI's that are failing are: MogulAI
17:38:05 <michi_cc> Wolf01: I didn't look at any code, just be aware that if you use previously unused map bits, nothing guarantees you they are 0 in old savegames.
17:38:14 <Samu> Terron - can't find station
17:38:34 <Samu> CluelessPlus - failed to build bus/truck station
17:39:15 <michi_cc> Basically, savegame bump + bit initialisation in AfterLoadGame
17:40:10 <Wolf01> extern const uint16 NRT_SAVEGAME_VERSION = 196; // compatible to all NRT version, compatible with 1.6.x, NOT COMPATIBLE with 1.7.x <- yes
17:40:24 <Wolf01> Needs another savegame bump
17:40:58 <Samu> LudiAI builds roads, but not stations
17:41:38 <Samu> MogulAI also builds roads, just noticed them on the map, but not stations
17:42:05 <Wolf01> frosch123: remind me why we need to have 2 different versions?
17:42:41 <frosch123> there are no 2 different versions
17:42:48 <Samu> Terron also appears to be able to build roads, but not stations
17:43:01 <frosch123> there is just a constant for the version that adds nrt, instead of a magic constant
17:43:24 <Wolf01> We could just have bumped to 197 directly
17:43:29 <frosch123> nrt was started during 1.6 and bumped by one compared to 1.6
17:43:41 <frosch123> then trunk bumped for 1.7
17:43:53 <Wolf01> Oh, that's why, and we forgot to bump NRT to 197
17:44:21 <frosch123> someone synced nrt with trunk, did not notice that the versions were the same, complained for a week that nrt was suddenly broken
17:44:46 <Wolf01> $someone... I wonder who it was
17:45:01 <frosch123> then i fixed the merge, and decided to keep compatibility within nrt, instead of breaking nrt compatibility to add rather pointless 1.7 compatibility
17:45:25 <Wolf01> Why not SAVEGAME_VERSION + 1?
17:45:40 <frosch123> you can do that, but it breaks nrt savegames
17:46:17 <frosch123> version numbers are linear :) you have to choose between breaking compatibility with 1.7 or breaking compatibilty with earlier nrt
17:46:36 <frosch123> if you break it, you should make it SAVEGAME_VERSION + 100 btw
17:46:44 <frosch123> that saves you for 1.9 :p
17:46:45 <andythenorth> break earlier NRT
17:48:30 <Wolf01> We'll start from 1000, so it's enought different from trunk to recognize it (and forgot to change it again if we need to bump NRT for breaking changes)
17:50:44 <Wolf01> extern const uint16 NRT_SAVEGAME_VERSION = 1000; // Compatible with trunk and any future release, not compatible with old NRT versions
17:50:58 <Samu> NoCAB can build station, can build road, but not vehicles, yet the log is saying that it can't build road ERR_UNKNOWN
17:51:29 <Wolf01> Samu, without knowing how AIs work, that's really useless
17:51:37 <frosch123> you probably also have to set SAVEGAME_VERSION
17:52:41 <LordAro> Samu: have you considered writing your own AI?
17:54:17 <Samu> well, out of 14 AIs, only 3 were successfully building road+station+vehicle
17:54:38 <Samu> what else do I test now?
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17:54:53 <Wolf01> So bump SAVEGAME_VERSION to 1000 and remove NRT_SAVEGAME_VERSION?
17:56:07 <frosch123> don't add magic numbers to afterload which are subject to change
17:56:33 <frosch123> if trunk adds stuff you will need SAVEGAME_VERSION=NRT_SAVEGAME_VERSION+1
17:56:47 <frosch123> NRT_SAVEGAME_VERSION is essentially the first NRT version
17:58:08 <frosch123> you could also check which version JGR uses :)
18:12:36 <Wolf01> Meh, git bash stopped working, I can't go anywhere else than the MINGW64 folder
18:15:54 <Wolf01> Luckily I can use the WSL
18:20:05 <Wolf01> BTW he uses a different concept, ok, not so different, but changes some places where SAVEGAME_VERSION is used
18:27:24 <Samu> have you ever seed a "BuildNextToRoad" function somewhere?
18:28:12 <Samu> they appear to fail there
18:28:36 <Wolf01> That function need to be updated then, but it should be the AI's author
18:30:02 <Samu> openttd doesn't have a BuildNextToRoad function, gah :(
18:31:36 <Wolf01> Ok, not sure on how to proceed, declare 1.7.2 saves incompatible, keep compatibility with NRT ones
18:32:33 <Samu> bump everything from 1 from the day u started NRT?
18:33:25 <Wolf01> That would break NRT saves
18:34:59 <andythenorth> NRT saves are imho disposable
18:36:24 <Samu> IfIsSaveGameVersionBefore(197) {convert stuff to nrt} in afterload
18:36:56 <Wolf01> Samu, the problem is that saves made with 1.7.x have the same version of NRT
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18:39:51 <Wolf01> If I bump trunk it still won't convert 1.7.x to NRT as it have the same version, if i bump both I can't load NRT saves because it tries to add NRT stuff where it's already present
18:40:19 <Wolf01> Or I could make it do it anyway by removing the assert
18:41:01 <Samu> separate 1.7.x from the first NRT incarnation
18:41:28 <Samu> so, what was the version NRT started?
18:42:55 <Samu> 195 for pre-NRT, 196 for the first NRT, but then there was also a 196 done with 1.7.2 or so
18:43:03 <Samu> and u want to update to it
18:44:54 <Samu> i think, u want to be on version 197, while still having the changes that went to official 196, let me think
18:46:17 <Samu> 195 pre-NRT, 196 NRT, 197 NRT with official 196 changes, something like this
18:49:24 <Samu> 195 pre-NRT, 196 NRT, then insert official 196 before NRT while bumping NRT stuff by 1
18:50:08 <Samu> 195 pre-NRT, 196 pre-NRT, 197 NRT
18:50:51 <Samu> does it make any sense what i'm saying?
18:51:00 <Wolf01> It could even be 195 pre-NRT and 8001 NRT, Savegames made with 196 are doomed
18:53:18 <Samu> or just hack the savegames and tell them they're actually version 197
18:55:43 <Wolf01> Yes, I really should get all the palyer savegames and resave them with the right version
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18:58:27 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, i just read a "new post" from july 2017... i totally neglected the forum for ages...
18:59:51 <andythenorth> you didn't miss much
19:00:20 <Eddi|zuHause> nope, i determined it's pointless and skipped the rest of the thread
19:07:24 <Samu> BuildNextToRoad is a SuperLib-39 function
19:09:03 <Samu> AIRoad.SetCurrentRoadType(AIRoad.ROADTYPE_ROAD);
19:09:38 <LordAro> i'd imagine all the AIRoad stuff will have to be reworked into something that looks more like AIRAil
19:13:21 <Wolf01> So Samu, 1.7 savegames aren't really a problem since you should be testing NRT with some new GRFs and not with old savegames
19:15:12 <Wolf01> Or just don't use AIs which rely on that
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19:44:28 <supermop> now ps isn't showing the big split ring thing when eyedroppering
19:46:40 <V453000> supermop: select picker tool (I) and there is a checkbox for sampling ring
19:46:53 <andythenorth> sampling ring? :o
19:47:07 <V453000> it's from CS6 or something
19:47:32 <V453000> oh, that's probably some OpenGL shit or something
19:47:52 <supermop> not showing the pixel grid either
19:47:55 <V453000> I think you need to re-enable GPU acceleration or something like that in preferences, try to google it
19:48:38 <supermop> ill restart in a bit and see if that fixes it
19:49:11 <supermop> Wolf01: andythenorth whats priority for testing from me? no_houses spool?
19:50:15 <supermop> i dont really have a yes_houses tramway i want to make, but i can for testing if you like
19:51:13 <V453000> btw how do I come to the number I need to set for disable_item(FEAT_TRAINS, 0, 115); for RV/industries etc?
19:52:05 <Samu> Wolf01: src\script\api\script_road.cpp did u edit this at all?
19:53:33 <Samu> AIs are trying to use those functions
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20:01:57 <frosch123> disable_item only exists for vehicles
20:02:05 <frosch123> at least i think so
20:02:17 <frosch123> actually, probably i am wrong :p
20:13:02 <andythenorth> supermop: fix the asphalt road bug in spool?
20:13:10 <andythenorth> I don't know what it is, but Wolf found it
20:13:18 <andythenorth> and then houses / no-houses test
20:13:32 <supermop> Wolf01: whats wrong with asphalt road?
20:13:58 <andythenorth> iirc, asphalt and electrified asphalt aren't correctly compatible
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20:23:09 <andythenorth> I haven't repro-ed it
20:24:10 <supermop> looks like country roads beat me to no_houses
20:24:22 <supermop> should have jumped on that this morning
20:27:23 <supermop> aspt didn't have elas as a powered type
20:29:21 <supermop> * a bit, i'm running to lunch
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22:21:33 <Samu> the rail bridge description says I own the road?
22:23:51 <Samu> also looking at infrastructure count, an AI that has only built rails, has the same number of road pieces
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22:32:25 <Snail> hey guys, is there a way to display all the available vehicles in-game, by using the Console?
22:32:33 <Snail> something like… cheat: allvehicles
22:32:39 <Snail> or something like that?
22:39:02 <nielsm> as far as I can tell, no, there isn't a way to list all available vehicles
22:39:34 <nielsm> apart from turning off vehicles expire, and then turning up the date until everything is available
22:42:18 <Samu> something bad is supposed to happen when company 0 bankrupts
22:47:55 <Eddi|zuHause> Snail: cheat the year to something high and then do "resetvehicles" with vehicles never expire enabled?
22:54:10 <Samu> so company 0 bankrups, the road and tram owner of a rail bridge without any actual road or tram is now N/A. OWNER_NONE I presume
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22:58:46 <supermop> andythenorth: do i have to compile your nml branch?
22:59:52 <andythenorth> how did you get the nml you have now?
23:02:39 <Eddi|zuHause> if you have python, you don't need to compile nml
23:03:12 <Eddi|zuHause> the "compile" is just bundling python and nml into an .exe for "windows users"
23:24:00 <Samu> uhm, i'm about to cause a desync
23:25:07 <Samu> i'm playing in the same company, on client 1 I got £70k in bank, on the other I got £64k
23:25:27 <supermop> downloaded it from some main nml place
23:26:00 <supermop> it was one that frosch made
23:26:23 <supermop> there is no nmlc.exe in the thing i downloaded from your gh
23:32:03 <andythenorth> is it reliable repro?
23:32:22 <andythenorth> supermop: you'll have to wait for frosch, I don't know how to build the .exe
23:33:16 <Samu> needs a company to bankrupt for another to buy it, then leave game and rejoin game, then play on the same company
23:33:30 <Samu> infrastructure maintenance costs must be enabled
23:33:44 <Samu> the road piece counting are different on both clients
23:33:55 <Samu> i wasted money on both, until it desynced
23:35:35 <Samu> got another screenshot with the different counting
23:36:33 <Samu> i have no idea how it counted 900ish road pieces during company merge
23:37:26 <andythenorth> it's probably confused about who owns what
23:37:32 <andythenorth> it will be a valid bug
23:38:40 <Samu> rail bridges owned by other companies will say that company 0 owns the tram and the road
23:38:52 <Samu> maybe the counting comes from here?
23:39:11 <Samu> also when building a rail piece, it also counts it as a road piece
23:39:44 <Samu> if i build 5 rail pieces, it counts as both 5 rail pieces and 5 road pieces
23:40:07 <Wolf01> <supermop> Wolf01: whats wrong with asphalt road? <- not compatible with asphalt+catenary
23:41:32 <Samu> imminent desync incoming again
23:42:40 <Samu> no desync yet, i'm surprised
23:42:51 <Samu> i got £360k loan in one and £370k loan in the other
23:43:41 <Wolf01> Don't get off topic, focus on roads
23:43:55 <Samu> ok, the topic is infrastructure counting of roads
23:44:07 <Samu> that's what's causing desync
23:44:20 <Wolf01> For what I know about you, in half an hour you'll start to blame me that airports don't work
23:45:07 <Wolf01> The problem is "why is the owner of the bridge always company 0?"
23:45:19 <Samu> "infrastructure counting of roads during company merge, I suspect company 0 merging into another company"
23:45:45 <Wolf01> That might be a reason
23:46:21 <Samu> i also tested company 0 bankrupt without a buyout, and those rail bridges now got a N/A
23:46:43 <Samu> for road/tram ownings, aren't those tunnel bridge tiles?
23:47:24 <Samu> haven't tried an aqueduct, but I bet they will also have a road/tramway owner on them
23:48:16 <Wolf01> The land area info tool might be broken
23:48:33 <Wolf01> We should check it in debug
23:49:02 <Wolf01> We didn't touch railways or aqueducts, so they can't be broken
23:49:14 <Wolf01> But we had to add some info to the land info tool
23:49:32 <Wolf01> And that might appear on unwanted places
23:49:56 <Samu> build a rail bridge as company other than 0, and u will get road + tramway owners on them, owned by company 0. And if company 0 doesn't exist, it will be owned by the dreaded "someone"
23:50:34 <Wolf01> Ok, then it's a land info tool problem, not game breaking
23:51:14 <Wolf01> The problem is the different count of infrastructure, which causes desyncs
23:52:04 <Wolf01> Make a clean list of problems which causes the game to break and how to exactly reproduce them
23:52:22 <Wolf01> I'll try to give a look at the problems tomorrow
23:53:12 <Samu> ok, gonna try reproduce the counting mismatching
continue to next day ⏵
