IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2018-02-03
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00:53:24 <Eddi|zuHause> how typical... i was trying to play deponia, and just before the (possibly?) end it seems to hang in an endless loop
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02:19:03 <Eddi|zuHause> now... i missed quite a lot of achievements there
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10:32:12 <stefino> hi, one engine tick is 27ms? thx
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11:02:55 <Wolf01> andythenorth: I'm trying to fix the proble to convert town roads to ELRDs... that thing bothers me
11:03:18 <andythenorth> I pushed the CC fix
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11:08:16 <Wolf01> I'm trying to understand why asphalt road + catenary isn't compatible with asphalt road
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11:19:56 <Wolf01> Game, but it seem that asphalt misses the "has power on asphalt+catenary"
11:20:19 <Wolf01> As stone is compatible, so there isn't a problem in the code
11:21:20 <Wolf01> Yes, I can't even run vehicles on asphalt
11:24:48 <Wolf01> Mmhhh no, they can, it's just the asphalt+catenary which is not compatible with other roads, it doesn't even connect
11:26:55 <Wolf01> Ok, the code already works, the grf needs some fix
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11:28:55 <Wolf01> As I said previously, my code doesn't have bugs XD
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11:35:13 <stefino> can someone explain to me how to write part of code for sound events? It is in callbacks paragraph but it doesn't work in my nml
11:36:01 <andythenorth> Wolf01: have we got a burn-down list of what's left to do?
11:36:02 <Wolf01> andythenorth: could you play test the can-build-vehicles-infrastructure branch to be sure everything works fine? It should disable not available roadtypes and fixes the editor too
11:37:56 <Wolf01> Ok, I'll make some issues to keep track of the work
11:38:16 <andythenorth> if there's only small things, put them all in one issue
11:41:07 <andythenorth> Wolf01: how did you test the can-build... branch?
11:41:19 <andythenorth> I guess I need a grf with roads but no vehicles for it
11:41:55 <Wolf01> Yes, or just check if the roadtype is available before the introduction date (it shouldn't)
11:42:23 <Wolf01> Also a roadtype must be available if expired but you still have vehicles
11:43:23 <andythenorth> lacking enough types to test with
11:43:28 <andythenorth> not comprehensive :P
11:43:39 <andythenorth> that's one to ship and await player reports
11:43:46 <andythenorth> SE trams work for everything I could think of
11:44:18 <andythenorth> merge all branches, get nightlies tested
11:45:26 <Wolf01> We could merge no-houses, can-build
11:45:38 <Wolf01> Maybe no-junctions too
11:45:50 <andythenorth> no-junctions is hard to take away if there are problems :P
11:46:31 <Wolf01> No, it needs more testing, but for the basic feature it just does its job
11:47:17 <Wolf01> It's a bit difficult to use as you need to remove roadbits to change direction, but nothing can help here
11:54:09 <andythenorth> ok so we need an nml patch for no-houses
11:56:59 <Wolf01> Yes, I linked that, I took the entries from the TODO
11:59:17 <andythenorth> not sure about names yet
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12:06:43 <frosch123> we need gps vehicle tracking for openttd
12:07:36 <Wolf01> We need to merge branch stuff into NRT, I've just merged no-houses, next is the can-build-veh-infra
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12:33:42 <andythenorth> "Non-constructible rail-/road-/tramtypes to model vehicle compatibility/poweredness"
12:33:47 <andythenorth> do we need that before a trunk merge?
12:38:44 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i'd say no, but it might be something to add to road and railtypes later
12:38:59 <Samu> i figured how to make tortoisehg patches to work with tortoisesvn
12:39:34 <Samu> got to edit in a text editor and remove 'a/' and 'b/' from every file that is changed
12:42:32 <LordAro> still say you don't need to switch back to tortoisesvn
12:44:47 <Wolf01> Mmmh, my tortoisesvn applied git patches to svn without problems, which version do you use?
12:45:43 <Samu> never seen a git patch in my life yet, or maybe I did but didn't realise it
12:45:48 <Wolf01> It shouldn't be a problem, git patches have a/ b/ too
12:46:27 <Samu> TortoiseSVN 1.9.7, Build 27907 - 64 Bit , 2017/08/08 19:34:38 Subversion 1.9.7, -release apr 1.5.2 apr-util 1.5.4 serf 1.3.9 OpenSSL 1.0.2l 25 May 2017 zlib 1.2.8 SQLite 3.14.1
12:48:02 <Wolf01> I had the other problem: when creating a patch I had to remember to create it as a git patch or only svn users were able to apply it
12:49:08 <Samu> for me, it creates a 'b' folder :(
12:51:20 <Wolf01> Ok, it does that for me too
12:54:41 <Wolf01> From command line it works with --strip
12:54:55 <Wolf01> E:\progetti\OpenTTD\trunk> svn patch --strip 1 ..\svn_27967_ship_collision_v7.patch
12:55:33 <Samu> there is a command line huh
12:56:42 <LordAro> we explained this to you quite some time ago
12:59:49 <Samu> there is no svn.exe on my system :(
13:01:22 <stefino> did anyone sounds for vehicles? for start, running and stop vehicle?
13:01:53 <Eddi|zuHause> some old pikka sets had running sounds
13:02:08 <Eddi|zuHause> they were removed in later versions
13:03:16 <stefino> mmm, I'm trying to find right length of sound track
13:05:01 <Samu> so git patches is compatible with hg patchers?
13:05:20 <planetmaker> patch is independent of VCS basically
13:06:20 <Samu> link me to a git patch plz
13:06:40 <stefino> wiki says that sound will be generate every 16 ticks - in case of 30ms it is 0,48s per one track. But in game it sounds like that ticks are not in periodic
13:08:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i can't really help you with that as i've never looked into sounds
13:09:37 <Wolf01> Samu: if you open a command line and type "svn help" what does it say?
13:10:08 <Samu> 'svn' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.
13:10:34 <Wolf01> Ok so you didn't install the tools when the installer let you choose that
13:13:01 <Samu> command line client tools?
13:13:14 <Samu> i usually do next next next
13:13:26 <Wolf01> You usually don't read
13:14:08 <Samu> usage: svn <subcommand> [options] [args]
13:16:23 <Samu> ack, pathnames in command line programs are so daunting
13:16:44 <Wolf01> You have the TAB key on the keyboard, learn how to use it
13:17:48 <Wolf01> And everything you need to know is that ../ means "the parent folder" and ./ means "the current folder"
13:18:19 <Wolf01> Everything else runs on the folder you are on (unless you start with / which is the root)
13:19:27 <Samu> svn patch --strip 1 "C:\Users\Ricardo\Downloads\svn_27967 settings.patch" D:\OpenTTD\trunk
13:20:17 <Samu> and i'm lucky svn runs directly from anywhere
13:20:38 <Samu> it's usually not the case
13:20:59 <peter1138> You know what PATH is, right?
13:21:00 <Wolf01> With a bit of knowledge you can also make the calculator run from everywhere
13:22:01 <peter1138> Hmm, earl grey or plain tea?
13:22:12 <Samu> oh, so the program ruined my path variable? :(
13:22:34 <Samu> feels like going back to DOS era
13:22:35 <peter1138> s/ruined/just added something to/
13:23:07 <peter1138> Hmm, wonder if I have any decent missions on E:D at the moment
13:23:39 <peter1138> Boom time delivery of 4 units of tea
13:23:40 <Samu> i wonder what will happen if i uninstall it
13:24:05 <Samu> or was that ruined forever?
13:25:23 <Samu> C:\WINDOWS\system32;C:\WINDOWS;C:\WINDOWS\System32\Wbem;C:\WINDOWS\System32\WindowsPowerShell\v1.0\;C:\Program Files (x86)\AMD\ATI.ACE\Core-Static;C:\Program Files (x86)\ATI Technologies\ATI.ACE\Core-Static;C:\Program Files\Microsoft SQL Server\120\Tools\Binn\;C:\Program Files\Microsoft SQL Server\130\Tools\Binn\;C:\Program Files (x86)\Windows Kits\10\Windows Performance Toolkit\;C:\Program Files (x86)\Microsoft SQL Server\110\DTS\Binn\;C:\Pr
13:25:28 <Samu> damn my path looks ugly as hell
13:25:31 <Wolf01> Mmh, I lost my first game on Stellaris, I don't know if I want to retry or loose myself on factorio for the entire weekend
13:26:08 <Wolf01> Samu, it's a fucking path variable, not a desktop wallpaper, you don't need to stare at it every second
13:26:37 <Samu> C:\Program Files\TortoiseSVN\bin
13:27:09 <Samu> in the dos era, i tried to keep this as clean as possible
13:27:09 <Wolf01> I always have problems with 'oo's
13:27:22 <Samu> feels like going back in time
13:29:47 <Samu> i still think i prefer to edit a/ and b/ out with notepad++
13:30:01 <Samu> full pathnames are a headache
13:31:59 <LordAro> you need to get into your head that development involves the commandline
13:35:01 <Samu> gonna google online patch converter
13:36:27 <Samu> meh, i was looking for a web browser tool
13:37:06 <Samu> i would submit the hg patch, the web does its magic, and gives me back a svn patch to download
13:38:45 <LordAro> i reiterate, why do you want to convert between them
13:39:29 <Samu> to be able to right click > TortoiseSVN > Apply Patch...
13:40:56 <Samu> because it's smarter, well integrated with windows explorer
13:41:52 <Samu> right click a folder or a patch file in the explorer, and tortoisesvn is all there, create patch, revert, update to, etc...
13:42:43 <LordAro> 1) svn is not smart, hg/git are smarter
13:43:02 <LordAro> 2) all tortoises have explorer context menus
13:43:24 <Samu> eh, tortoisehg didn't have that, not even close :(
13:44:25 <Wolf01> The problem is not SVN itselv, which I still consider a valid thing, but the UI tools aren't always as good as we want
13:44:56 <Samu> it doesn't let me create patch or apply patch from there
13:45:18 <Wolf01> Samu, go in config and enable the menu items
13:45:45 <Samu> meh, it's not installed :(
13:45:51 <Samu> i don't feel like installing it again
13:46:23 <Samu> also, it creates weird openttd versions with visual studio
13:46:45 <Samu> svn is more clear about it
13:47:28 <Samu> if it's r27967, then it's r27967M, not gf89dgfsd9gh3 or whatever
13:48:29 <Wolf01> Use git so you can see the branch name on the title
13:50:15 <Wolf01> The main problem about SVN is that sequential number which mislead you on everything, it's like the autoincrement primary key on SQL databases
13:50:32 <Wolf01> Use GUIDs everywhere and you solve everything
13:51:19 <andythenorth> they're just changeset hashes
13:51:26 <andythenorth> not incremental version numbers
13:52:17 <Wolf01> You can easy tell if one version is older than another
13:53:47 <LordAro> that is the one advantage to svn
13:54:24 <Eddi|zuHause> you buy the advantage with a heap of inflexibility
13:55:53 <Eddi|zuHause> that's why SVN is only used for the main repo, anyone who seriously works on developing patches uses hg or git
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14:33:33 <Samu> woah, git patches are even worse
14:33:49 <Samu> unless i failed to identify a git patch
14:33:59 <Samu> can someone link me to a real git patch?
14:37:00 <LordAro> hg patches are basically the same as hg patches
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14:40:16 <Samu> i need to remove a/trunk/ and b/trunk/
14:40:26 <Samu> and also remove the diff --git something something
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14:45:51 <LordAro> Samu: ok, so it was just created from another directory
14:46:03 <LordAro> as Wolf01 says, this is quite easy to solve
14:46:20 <LordAro> and i'm pretty sure even svn can cope with diff --git
14:46:25 <LordAro> hell, it can generate them
15:08:27 <Samu> diff --git a/trunk/src/lang/english.txt b/trunk/src/lang/english.txt --- a/trunk/src/lang/english.txt (revision 27967) +++ b/trunk/src/lang/english.txt (working copy)
15:08:55 <Samu> seems to me that tortoisesvn can't make a decent git patch
15:09:09 <Samu> it can't apply what it created
15:10:26 <Samu> Wolf01: show me one of your git patches, plz
15:10:53 <Wolf01> I use github directly now, no patches
15:14:09 <frosch123> stefino: what is there to ask about vehicle sounds?
15:14:59 <supermop> is a curtain-sided boxcar a thing?
15:16:02 <frosch123> stefino: you cannot create a continuous running sound
15:16:35 <frosch123> the timing when executing newgrf is not precise enough
15:16:43 <stefino> so in this case are these events quite useless or not? :D
15:16:59 <andythenorth> supermop: not really, but it's a game
15:17:18 <supermop> looks better for modern industrial trams
15:19:32 <supermop> though nowmeans have to draw the cargo inside
15:21:07 <frosch123> stefino: the currently available stuff is probably good enough for starting steam engines, which have some silence between iterations, but it does not work for combustion engines
15:22:08 <frosch123> andythenorth: do you know a more recent essay similar to "the cathedral and the bazzar"?
15:22:16 <stefino> frosch123: yes I'm trying it on car atm.
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15:23:16 <andythenorth> no on similar subjects no
15:24:12 <frosch123> ok, at least my guess was correct that you know the essay :p
15:25:00 <andythenorth> also the guy who invented Lisp has a lot of stuff on architecture, and why 'worse is better' beat Lisp
15:25:05 <supermop> hmm stack deck, then cargo, then whole upper structure, or deck+ends+roof, then cargo, then curtains
15:25:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i've heard of "the cathedral and the bazaar" but i have no clue what it's about
15:25:14 <andythenorth> it's about 'good enough'
15:25:34 <andythenorth> and why letting things grow as a mess still gets results
15:26:02 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: there is a 30 page essay on the internet
15:26:13 <Eddi|zuHause> that's how evolution works... it grows as a mess, and the more successfull messes stick around longer
15:26:20 <frosch123> and some book with 240 pages, which i am currenly wondering about how it relates
15:26:57 <supermop> stacking whole upper part of boxcar on top means can reuse flatbed cargo sprites
15:27:13 <frosch123> ah, the book is a collection of stories
15:27:20 <frosch123> and the catb is only one of them
15:43:46 <supermop> i wonder if random 1cc +2cc accent vs 2cc +1cc accent is bad design
15:44:10 <supermop> as players are likely to choose 2cc to be a bolder accent color in general
15:44:40 <supermop> so getting an all bright boxcar with drab stripes would look dumb
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16:43:14 <andythenorth> Wolf01: allowing towns to choose roads?
16:43:20 <andythenorth> that would need a heuristic
16:43:52 <andythenorth> one option would be a newgrf cb
16:43:58 <andythenorth> for 'town is building a road tile'
16:44:38 <andythenorth> if there are multiple NRT grfs, who handles the cb?
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17:22:00 <supermop> andythenorth: some value per road type that indicates town attractiveness
17:22:23 <supermop> the available roadtype with highest value is chosen?
17:22:37 <supermop> if tie, the type defined earlier wins
17:23:45 <supermop> spent the last hour drawing cardboard boxes to go into curtain siders
17:23:55 <andythenorth> 'probability of being built by town' :P
17:24:16 <andythenorth> towns choose a random roadtype
17:24:29 <supermop> with nice variation in the stacks between 'tan' and 'slightly darker tan'
17:35:01 <Samu> but uhm... i think i managed to crash openttd with nocab once
17:35:26 <Samu> start a 4096x4096 map with 12k towns and 20k industries
17:35:44 <Samu> start the ai... wait a while, and suddenly... crash
17:36:31 <Samu> nonocab limits towns to 1000 and industries to 2000, so ... maybe his crash is different
17:37:30 <supermop> i wish ps would let me have two different things in clipboard
17:37:38 <Samu> i think the crashes are more prominent on 32-bit of openttd... probably mem allocation issues? out of memory?
17:37:46 <supermop> and choose which to paste by some modifier key
17:37:56 <supermop> is that possible andythenorth ?
17:38:01 <Wolf01> andythenorth: when we'll get a common point for that I could start looking at the code, honestly I don't even have an idea of how it should work
17:40:00 <supermop> Wolf01: andythenorth focus on other flags first?
17:40:37 <Wolf01> I published the no-junctions branch, so it could be tested
17:41:25 <andythenorth> supermop: you can have multiple clipboards on mac, but only with 3rd party apps
17:41:33 <andythenorth> and it's a security risk, they can read passwords etc
17:42:30 <supermop> oh well. i just want 'paste the tan box' and 'paste the dark tan box'
17:48:14 <Wolf01> Paste all the tan boxes first and the dark tan ones later
17:48:35 <Wolf01> And if you need different combinations, do them before and paste the combinations :P
17:48:53 <supermop> some need to go in front of dark tan boxes, some need to go behind
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17:49:57 <Wolf01> Draw white boxes, arrange them as you want, add colour, add shading :P
17:50:05 <Samu> feels like I did that for nothing :| /foreveralone
17:50:30 <Wolf01> The hard life of a developer
17:51:08 <Samu> well, i had some feedback, about filenames being too long
17:51:23 <Samu> but, other than that, i dunno if ppl can use those patches
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18:09:25 <andythenorth> no feedback is still feedback
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18:36:47 <supermop> andythenorth: what about random variant grey with 1cc as alternate for 1cc with 2cc
18:37:10 <supermop> i guess i can recolor or something
18:39:02 <supermop> yellow boxcars look odd
18:53:32 <andythenorth> Wolf01: disabled construction of drive-in stops?
18:53:37 <andythenorth> that's another flag?
18:54:03 <andythenorth> what are Roadsides and Underlay?
18:54:22 <andythenorth> so basically the core is done?
18:54:28 <andythenorth> there's a bug in SE?
18:54:41 <Wolf01> Yes, at least until I merge the other branch
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19:58:28 <Wolf01> Merge can-build-too-long-name, decide how to implement roads built by cities
19:59:51 <Wolf01> No, that's point 4, before there is "???"
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20:18:07 <Samu> i just realized something
20:18:34 <Samu> forbid 90 degrees has a positive impact on yapf
20:20:43 <Samu> when entering a new tile, coming from a diagonal with forbid 90 degrees, there's only 2 choices, not 3
20:22:26 <Samu> i'm speaking about water tiles, mind u
20:27:58 <andythenorth> forbid 90 degress causes lost ships
20:28:05 <andythenorth> they get stuck in dead ends
20:28:08 <andythenorth> and near some docks
20:35:18 <Samu> 2 days on debug x64 build with 5000 ships: 17.532 seconds, 16.981 seconds
20:37:16 <Samu> with forbid 90 degrees: 17.152 seconds, 17.063 seconds
20:38:35 <Samu> i don't have a decent way to test this
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20:47:26 <Eddi|zuHause> that setting should be split for trains and ships
20:48:05 <Eddi|zuHause> and movement for ships maybe should be completely reworked
20:56:19 <Samu> dbg: [yapf] [YAPFw]- 1- 3288 us - 125 rounds - 79 open - 124 closed - CHR 0.0% - C 1823 D 0 - c0(sc0, ts0, o0) --
20:56:24 <Samu> dbg: [yapf] [YAPFw]- 2- 3333 us - 130 rounds - 80 open - 129 closed - CHR 0.0% - C 1823 D 0 - c0(sc0, ts0, o0) --
20:57:08 <Samu> less rounds = more time? that's confusing
20:57:24 <Samu> ah, no less rounds = less time, that's correct, my bad
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21:02:58 <Samu> tested on another scenario, i got a different result
21:03:04 <Samu> dbg: [yapf] [YAPFw]- 1- 20831 us - 2161 rounds - 1485 open - 2160 closed - CHR 0.0% - C 8823 D 0 - c0(sc0, ts0, o0) --
21:03:18 <Samu> dbg: [yapf] [YAPFw]- 2- 18637 us - 1743 rounds - 1017 open - 1742 closed - CHR 0.0% - C 8823 D 0 - c0(sc0, ts0, o0) --
21:05:40 <Samu> looks like I can't prove my theory, but at least, I know that forbid 90 degrees setting impacts the pathfinder performance somehow
21:06:13 <Alberth> that would be expected, as there are a different number of feasible paths
21:07:34 <Alberth> for ships it hardly matter though, as it's a sea of paths literally, so dropping 50% of them has little impact
21:07:48 <Alberth> you still have to visit the same number of tiles
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21:12:58 <andythenorth> Wolf01: shall I merge long-branch-name?
21:14:02 <Wolf01> If your tests passed, then yes
21:14:14 <Wolf01> So we'll let other user test it more
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21:41:36 <Wolf01> supermop_work: there is something to fix on asphalt road+catenary on unspooled
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22:23:32 <stefino> last question about sounds. If road vehicle go out from bus stop or freight station( type where vehicle goes through), why there is no outgoing sound and it is only in "end" station. It was too poisonous in city?
22:36:17 <Samu> Wolf01: since you're working with roads, do you know the inner workings of how/when towns expand with roads?
22:39:30 <Samu> alright, i'd like you to take a look at this piece of code when you have time
22:41:49 <Samu> I question whether I made the checks in the correct locations in code
22:42:12 <Samu> sometimes I get a feeling the towns could grow more, and just don't grow
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22:44:51 <Eddi|zuHause> i remember towns that went "ding" constantly
22:45:23 <Eddi|zuHause> from an early version of german tram set
22:50:10 <stefino> Eddi|zuHause: so it was removed due this ?
22:50:20 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't remember it being removed
22:54:14 <Wolf01> Samu, if you limit the places where towns grow then it takes more time to grow in other places (they don't check continuously where to grow if failed to do it)
22:55:07 <Wolf01> You can try it in scenario editor, expand towns, it will take more clicks to get the same size of the original version
23:02:09 <Samu> they appear to reach a situation where no matter how many tries, it just won't grow anymore
23:03:35 <Wolf01> Maybe they lock in? They shouldn't be able to build houses where roads go, but I can't be sure
23:26:26 <andythenorth> Wolf01: maybe more tomorrow?
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