IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2018-01-28
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11:08:18 <Wolf01> Mmmh, test play on stellaris taught me something, now it's time to do a serious play
11:09:01 <Wolf01> Also, I need to download 1 scenario for TANE, which will take about 15 days at 10kbps :P
11:11:03 <Wolf01> Damn missing dependencies, it should warn you about it before you start downloading 900MB of stuff at 10kbps :(
11:14:52 <Alberth> looks like a game that sells very well, so it's likely good :)
11:15:26 <Wolf01> It only list "available for download" or "builtin" or "already installed"... when you download them "oops, this dependency misses some other dependencies"... wtf? I already listed all the deps recursively, whi didn't you warned me?
11:18:14 <Wolf01> Oh wow, it's downloading at 14.8kbps! :D
11:18:44 <Eddi|zuHause> that's like 50% more
11:19:53 <Wolf01> Spoke too early, dropping fast, like 0.05kbps at second, it's at 13.2kbps now :(
11:21:16 <Wolf01> And I don't know how to activate the first class ticket of 30 days I should have, because my account doesn't even list the game even if I'm logged in with it in the game
11:22:03 <Eddi|zuHause> you have strange problems
11:22:33 <Wolf01> With TS2012 I just added the serial key to the account on the site, but this key is not compatible because it's a steam only key
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13:15:22 <andythenorth> I tried to figure out how compatible_railtypes works
13:15:27 <andythenorth> but it's bit shift magic :P
13:15:52 <andythenorth> I have NFI, I can only assume it ORs a bunch of bits or something
13:15:59 <andythenorth> to get the available types
13:17:44 <Wolf01> The problem with NRT is that you have 2 types on the same tile which also need to be compatible with each other, like if you have a tram on tile and you want to upgrade to a road which doesn't allow tram then you must check it too
13:18:16 <Wolf01> There are really a lot of checks added than railtypes
13:22:23 <andythenorth> do we allow road to forbid tram? o_O
13:23:37 <Wolf01> Like forbid level crossings, not suitable for houses, forbid intersections...
13:23:49 <andythenorth> so it's not actually a problem for roads with OWNER_TOWN?
13:25:21 <Wolf01> At least if you won't specify a road buildable by towns which forbids trams...
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13:38:41 <andythenorth> I am wondering if NRT is just a bad idea
13:38:56 <andythenorth> the town stuff is pretty much unsolvable
13:40:05 <andythenorth> it's total griefing
13:40:08 <andythenorth> all day, every day
13:40:22 <andythenorth> I just block you from every town by building a ring of incompatible roads
13:40:35 <andythenorth> I can just load a newgrf with a ridiculous low speed limit and ruin your game
13:40:58 <andythenorth> I just convert all town roads
13:41:09 <Wolf01> You have plenty of ways to grief players
13:41:54 <andythenorth> RIP any roadtypes ever
13:41:57 <Wolf01> If you don't want griefing then don't load grf which are too much toward it
13:42:01 <andythenorth> it's shared infra, and shared infra doesn't work
13:42:12 <andythenorth> I don't understand why we don't ban trams too
13:42:19 <andythenorth> I can just build trams in your town, and stop them
13:42:34 <andythenorth> flood town, shared orders, stop all
13:43:17 <andythenorth> also industries that overbuild town buildings should be banned
13:43:35 <andythenorth> I can just make a newgrf with £0 cost for an industry that overbuilds town
13:43:41 <andythenorth> then replace all your houses with it
13:44:13 <andythenorth> losing in tank game a lot :P
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14:09:35 <andythenorth> Wolf01: how about we only consider my use case, ignore all others, profit? :)
14:09:55 <Samu> is there a Company Value game script on banana ?
14:10:06 <Wolf01> And your use case was?
14:10:36 <Samu> i find it odd that i can't find any, when there's plenty of servers using it
14:11:10 <andythenorth> if I made a grf, I would only do ROAD, ELRD, HAUL, ELHL
14:11:18 <andythenorth> and HAUL isn't compatible with ROAD
14:11:43 <andythenorth> if we can forbid 'downgrade' of ELRD to ROAD
14:11:46 <andythenorth> we win all prizes
14:12:05 <andythenorth> ship, glory, fireworks
14:14:04 <Wolf01> I already need to forbid downgrade el->normal, on city roads, on your roads you do what you want
14:15:33 <Samu> I am looking for a game script where the goal is to be the first company to reach XXX company value
14:15:58 <Samu> akin to what happens in most multiplayer servers
14:23:34 <Eddi|zuHause> i think you're overthinking this
14:24:08 <Eddi|zuHause> town will only care about the road, not the electrification
14:34:03 <Samu> i can't edit #opcodes in the scenario editor? any valid reason for that?
14:34:28 <Samu> was trying to load a savegame in the editor to change this value :(
14:48:18 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: what am I missing?
14:51:14 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that it's fairly useless to build in special rules for "cannot downgrade ELRD to ROAD"
14:51:52 <Eddi|zuHause> griefers gonna grief either way (like trying to remove the road altogether), and players are going to be annoyed because they can't build how they like
14:53:11 <Eddi|zuHause> so town restriction should only be that there are houses allowed next to the road
14:53:27 <andythenorth> can we quote that?
14:53:43 <andythenorth> I see no solution to the griefers
14:53:53 <andythenorth> we could write 5k lines of code, and still no solution
14:54:36 <andythenorth> but it's remarkably trivial griefing, and I think it will lead to NRT being banned on servers
14:54:55 <andythenorth> maybe we should include an on/off toggle for NRT in settings?
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15:34:58 <Samu> why can't I modify #opcodes in the scenario editor?
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15:41:32 <Alberth> I would consider it a setting specific to a computer system rather than to a specific scenario
15:41:44 <Samu> I am looking at settings.ini, the flags
15:41:54 <Samu> guiflags = SGF_NEWGAME_ONLY
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15:42:56 <Alberth> you can't configure players either in the scenario editor
15:43:28 <Samu> what will happen if I change to guiflags = SGF_NEWGAME_ONLY | SGF_SCENEDIT_TOO
15:43:52 <Samu> there might be GS running in scenario editor, if I recall
15:43:55 <Samu> what will happen to those
15:50:43 <Samu> bah, it became 1.7.2M :(
15:52:02 <Samu> incompatible with multiplayer servers, i only changed something for the scenario editor :(
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16:01:23 * Rubidium wonders how many games have desynced because something was changed "only" for the scenario editor
16:02:16 <Samu> Rubidium: I request guiflags = SGF_NEWGAME_ONLY | SGF_SCENEDIT_TOO for this setting script.script_max_opcode_till_suspend
16:03:16 <Samu> so i can prepare a scenario for AIs properly
16:04:14 <Wolf01> Since you only need to chenge settings, you can prepare the scenario with a modified version of the game and load it on the base game and stop demanding weird things
16:06:30 <andythenorth> Wolf01: Eddi says we don't need to worry about downgrades
16:06:40 <andythenorth> so just compatibility check with ROAD
16:06:48 <Wolf01> Good then, the game is ready :P
16:07:06 <Rubidium> Samu: sure, but only once my OpenTTD commit frequency for 2018 is strictly below the frequency of 2017...
16:09:51 <andythenorth> you don't want to breach the limit? o-O
16:10:52 <Wolf01> andythenorth: we need to change road_cmd.cpp:L2377 so if it's not compatible it throws an error too instead of allowing it anyway (currently it throws an error when an incompatible vehicle is found on the road you are converting)
16:11:38 <Wolf01> That is the main point of checking the compatibility
16:12:32 <Wolf01> As it is now, it just works like rail, do you want to change this behavior?
16:13:49 <LordAro> Rubidium: i'm not sure i'd consider that an achievement :p
16:14:12 <Wolf01> Nobody stops you to convert from rail to maglev, and they are incompatible
16:14:32 <andythenorth> but I can't convert your rail
16:14:46 <andythenorth> I hate the griefing crap
16:15:23 <andythenorth> can we just ignore it?
16:15:34 <andythenorth> MP is stupid anyway, except coop
16:15:35 <Wolf01> But it's only a problem with city owned roads
16:16:05 <Wolf01> If you want to create a mining city with haul roads, why not?
16:16:26 <andythenorth> I think no compatibility check
16:16:27 <Wolf01> If another player wanted to use that city for pax... amen
16:16:42 <andythenorth> let's get it into trunk, see what the players fo
16:16:59 <andythenorth> I think we should add *more* opportunities to grief not less
16:17:07 <andythenorth> increase the range of exploits
16:17:59 <Wolf01> Griefing in real life is even worse, and they do it all the time
16:20:26 <Wolf01> Anyway, I'm ok with adding a check only for town roads to be able to convert them only if they are compatible with ROAD
16:22:58 <Samu> what I really wanted was to start an AI company as a client
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16:23:20 <Samu> i join server 7, and I would start an AI there
16:25:27 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: once upon a time Brianetta ran a "no rules" server, and people still played nice most of the time
16:27:22 <Samu> restart didn't made an exact copy of town and industry positionings
16:29:18 <andythenorth> Wolf01: so NRT is finished?
16:29:29 <Wolf01> No, there is really a lot to do
16:30:32 <Wolf01> Patch nml for the "usable as town road" flag, if it needs to be patched, then the next feature we will work on it's this one
16:31:40 <andythenorth> nml will need patched yes
16:35:31 <Samu> isn't the restart command used to do an exacty copy of the map?
16:37:26 <Samu> btpro client must be the culprit
16:40:13 <Samu> what have you done to map generation code?
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16:40:21 <ST2> 2 options: !voterestart (diff map) !voterestartgame (same map)
16:41:00 <Samu> i bet the restart of oficial 1.7.2 is different than your server's 1.7.2
16:41:33 <Samu> i get towns in different places
16:41:56 <Samu> the landscape is nearly equal, but raised land is still different
16:42:01 <ST2> yes I can test it - join our server #5 to see it
16:42:06 <Samu> industries are in different places too
16:42:51 <Samu> bah requires newgrf crap, sec
16:52:00 <Wolf01> andythenorth: do you have some HAUL download link?
16:52:32 <andythenorth> yes, but afk right now
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17:22:03 <Wolf01> andythenorth: pushed, see if it suits you
17:23:51 <Samu> guys, i think there is a bug with the restart command
17:24:39 <Samu> with my config, i got a slightly different town/industry placement than with the config of server 7
17:24:53 <Samu> i now got both config files in my possession
17:25:25 <andythenorth> Wolf01: how about we make catenary a button on the construction toolbar? :P
17:25:26 <Samu> shouldn't the restart do an exact copy, regardless of the base config?
17:25:55 <Wolf01> andythenorth: yes, but that's out of scope of the branch I'm working on
17:26:13 <andythenorth> nah I was just trolling
17:26:45 <Wolf01> Samu: no, a map is created from a lot of different configs: seed, map size, number of industries, difficulty settings...
17:27:56 <Wolf01> We should get a real "seed" and not just a terrain initialization seed, which groups all of them and so you can recreate the same exact map everywhere
17:33:12 <andythenorth> Wolf01: all seems to work :)
17:33:19 <andythenorth> what's left to do there?
17:33:35 <Wolf01> You can't anymore convert town roads to haul, noticed it?
17:34:09 <andythenorth> I thought maybe that was intentional
17:34:30 <andythenorth> oh I did git fetch not pull
17:34:55 <Samu> savegame doesn't save everything?
17:35:39 <Samu> i entered btpro server 7 game, typed restart
17:37:26 <andythenorth> Wolf01: yeah that's much better now
17:37:31 <andythenorth> no mining trucks in town
17:39:15 <Samu> is there a difference between economy = 1 and economy = true?
17:39:35 <Wolf01> Yes, one is 1 and one is true
17:40:05 <Samu> im trying to find the culprit, that is making restart look different on both configs
17:41:33 <andythenorth> Wolf01: yeah merge, you doing it or me?
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17:47:55 <Wolf01> NRT, now with 75% more griefing
17:49:46 <andythenorth> forum announce? o_O
17:51:00 <andythenorth> I'll wait for the build I guess
17:54:15 <Samu> st2 you have settings that don't exist in a fresh openttd.cfg
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18:18:04 <Samu> i think i found the culprit
18:18:22 <Samu> variety isn't saved on savegames, is it?
18:21:38 <Samu> i typed in console 'setting variety 5' then 'restart' and this time I got the exact same replication
18:29:04 <Samu> var = game_creation.variety
18:29:13 <Samu> flags = SLF_NOT_IN_SAVE | SLF_NO_NETWORK_SYNC
18:29:22 <Samu> there it is, the culprit
18:30:03 <Samu> i wonder if i can do something about this
18:31:22 <Wolf01> You can start by gathering every single setting involved in map generation
18:36:20 <Samu> oh wow, savegames are broken now... lol
18:36:28 <Samu> this requires a savegame conversion? :(
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19:35:54 <Samu> Wolf01: what's the difference between _settings_game.game_creation.variety and _settings_newgame.game_creation.variety
19:36:18 <Samu> which one is important to put in savegames?
19:37:04 <Wolf01> Don't put stuff in savegames
19:37:58 <Wolf01> Also, the first one is the setting, the second one is used by the newgame generator, copied from settings but not saved back
19:38:47 <Samu> it appears to be the only setting that is not stored in savegames
19:39:04 <Samu> there's another, but it's related to game pause
19:39:11 <Samu> doesn't seem related to map generation
19:40:31 <Samu> Client setting (not stored in saves; affects all games)
19:40:38 <Samu> seems to be the only client setting
19:55:46 <Samu> how do i convert savegames in a situation like this?
19:56:07 <Samu> seems that no conversion is needed, only a savegame version bump
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20:47:02 <Samu> Wolf01: take a look too plz :)
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20:58:53 <Samu> make your AI grow more towns, not just 1 town
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22:34:07 <supermop> i think for some of the stuff you must just ignore it and assume players and grf authors won't make stupid decisions with roads
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23:30:49 <Wolf01> Stuffed with food... 'night
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