IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2018-01-15
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00:04:47 *** Thedarkb1 has joined #openttd
00:16:37 <Samu> ShipAI ships don't service...
00:16:54 <Samu> i'm surprised he's still alive
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00:56:59 <Samu> 3 rocketAI v1 - bankrupt 11-1969
00:57:08 <Samu> there's 19 AIs still out there
01:01:13 <supermop> man unspooled code is really short
01:01:27 <LordAro> do the 5(?) AIs that haven't done anything count?
01:13:46 <supermop> should trolleywires over end-of-line form a loop, like the tram tracks?
01:14:11 <Eddi|zuHause> don't they do that already?
01:14:36 <supermop> or end on poles with weights for tension, assuming that they'd switch to the other wire to turn around
01:14:41 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, busses don't enter end-of-line segments
01:15:22 <Eddi|zuHause> they basically turn one tile earlier than trams
01:15:24 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause base graphics just seem to have the same plain trolleywire as any other bit of tramway or road
01:16:59 <supermop> turning around on a tile already looks really messed up for trams and articulated buses - if the vehicle can make that sharp of a turn it doesn't seem too far fetched that they could pull the trolley pole around to the other wire first
01:18:11 <supermop> whereas the very tight radius in the wires might call attention to how absurd the end of line loops are
01:19:00 <Eddi|zuHause> so why again do you worry about a tile that the bus cannot enter anyway?
01:19:28 <supermop> I worry about what looks least ugly for the overhead wires
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01:28:41 <supermop> I guess tram and bus wires could terminate differently
01:29:28 <supermop> but until NRT allows stacking catenary sprites, the road wires will have to look at least ok for trams as well
01:50:49 <Eddi|zuHause> the perspective looks way off on that...
01:50:59 <Eddi|zuHause> but i guess that's a general problem of openttd
01:51:30 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a bit weird that the two poles on the right seem to merge
01:51:59 <Eddi|zuHause> the poles could use a dark top to make it clear that it ends there
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02:06:08 <supermop> yeah that could work
02:06:21 <supermop> maybe some kind of insulator
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10:11:03 <stefino> hi guys...if I'm making foundations slopes, why are tiles under the buildings fixed at my new walls? When I want to move with wall I move with tile too. Yes I can choose tile and move it back but this changes its offsets. Thanks
10:21:42 <stefino> some tiles are OK, some tiles were moved when I change wall offsets
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11:49:46 <peter1138> Ah you are making graphics.
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12:02:56 <stefino> yep...I know where the problem is now. It is about ingame engine. Slopes are joined with tiles.
12:13:08 <peter1138> Sorry I don't remember the specifics. Been about 10 years since I looked at that stuff.
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13:15:56 <Samu> where is earthkira dude? :(
13:29:16 <DorpsGek> Samu: EarthlingKira was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 14 hours, 21 minutes, and 45 seconds ago: <EarthlingKira> I'd guess that AI doesn't build routes which are nearly as busy as routes built by humans
13:37:11 <Samu> v->breakdown_chance doesn't decrease if the vehicle is stopped, only v->reliability
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15:38:51 <Samu> 2 RoadRunner v12 - bankrupt 01-1986
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16:27:19 <Samu> where is the breakdown guy?
16:27:39 <supermop> probably out enjoying his life
16:28:17 <supermop> not every office lets their employees sit on IRC all day
16:28:32 <supermop> nor does every employee work in an office
16:28:57 <supermop> pretty hard to check IRC if you are working on a factory floor or in a shop
16:34:16 <Samu> his code makes it so that it takes longer, on average, to breakdown, the lower the v->reliability
16:35:29 <Samu> wish i could graph these results
16:40:02 <Samu> it gives me that impression, but i can't show proof :(
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16:53:50 <Samu> @calc (1*30)/256 * (1 + 1/25) * 30
16:57:47 <Samu> everyday, the chance is increased by 1 plus a 1/25 chance to add 25
16:59:44 <Samu> also, everyday a random number from 0 to 255 is rolled
17:00:39 <Samu> "random number from 0 to 255" <= "1.04 per day on average"
17:06:57 <Samu> day 1: 0-255 <= 1.04 : what are the chances that a random number from 0 to 255 is less or equal than 1.04
17:07:20 <Samu> day 10: 0-255 <= 10.4 : what are the chances that a random number from 0 to 255 is less of equal than 10.4
17:08:15 <Samu> presuming it didn't broke down on the previous 9 days
17:13:10 <Samu> 3 DictatorAI v183 - bankrupt 11-1990
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17:15:25 <Samu> what are the chances to breakdown on the 1st day
17:15:32 <Samu> what are the chances to breakdown on the 10th day
17:15:41 <Samu> what are the chances to breakdown on the nth day
17:28:04 <Samu> day 2: (256-1.04)/256 * (1 - (256-2.08)/256)
17:28:12 <Samu> @calc (256-1.04)/256 * (1 - (256-2.08)/256)
17:28:12 <DorpsGek> Samu: 0.0080919921875
17:29:05 <Samu> @calc (256-1.04)/256 * (256-2.08)/256
17:29:05 <DorpsGek> Samu: 0.987845507813
17:32:13 <Samu> @calc 1-((256-1.04)/256) * ((256-2.08)/256)
17:32:13 <DorpsGek> Samu: 0.0121544921875
17:48:15 <Samu> day 3: (256-1.04)/256 * (256-2.08)/256 * (1-(256-3.12)/256)
17:48:55 <Samu> @calc (256-1.04)/256 * (256-2.08)/256 * (1-(256-3.12)/256)
17:48:55 <DorpsGek> Samu: 0.0120393671265
17:50:02 <Samu> @calc (256-1.04)/256 * (256-2.08)/256 * (256-3.12)/256
17:50:02 <DorpsGek> Samu: 0.975806140686
17:51:06 <Samu> @calc 1-(256-1.04)/256 * (256-2.08)/256 * (256-3.12)/256
17:51:06 <DorpsGek> Samu: 0.024193859314
17:55:20 <Samu> 1 MailAI v21 - bankrupt 11-1990
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18:17:18 <Samu> grrr, why is this so complicated to undesrtand
18:29:23 *** Alberth has joined #openttd
18:29:23 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
18:29:47 <Samu> are you a probability expert
18:33:22 <Samu> the cranberries singer died today....
18:38:03 <Samu> help me Alberth. probability to breakdown on first day: (256-1.04)/256
18:38:28 <Samu> what would be the probability to breakdown on the second day if it didn't breakdown on the first day?
18:39:30 <Samu> actually, that the probability not to breakdown on first day, my bad
18:40:01 <Alberth> P(not at day 1) * P(at day 2)
18:41:02 <Samu> probability to breakdown on first day: 1-(256-1.04)/256
18:41:20 <Samu> probability not to breakdown on first day: (256-1.04)/256
18:42:20 <Samu> probability to breakdown on second day: (256-1.04)/256 * (1-(256-2.08)/256)
18:43:09 <Samu> and for the 3rd day how would it be?
18:43:45 <Alberth> P(not at day 1) * P(not at day 2) * P(at day 3)
18:45:47 <Samu> probability not to breakdown on second day: ((256-1.04)/256) * ((256-2.08)/256)
18:46:11 <Samu> hmm, and here's where things confuse me :(
18:48:19 <Samu> probability to breakdown on third day: (256-1.04)/256 * ((256-1.04)/256) * ((256-2.08)/256) * (1-(256-3.12)/256)
18:54:41 <Samu> probability not to breakdown on second day: (256-2.08)/256
18:55:37 <Samu> probability to breakdown on third day: (256-1.04)/256 * (256-2.08)/256 * (1-(256-3.12)/256)
18:56:03 <Samu> one of these is wrong, I dunno which one
18:58:33 <Samu> 8 Convoy v11 - bankrupt 01-2000
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19:21:59 <Samu> @calc (256-1.04)/256 * (1-(256-2.08)/256)
19:21:59 <DorpsGek> Samu: 0.0080919921875
19:22:33 <Samu> @calc ((256-1.04)/256) * ((256-2.08)/256)
19:22:33 <DorpsGek> Samu: 0.987845507813
19:23:36 <Samu> @calc (256-1.04)/256 * ((256-1.04)/256) * ((256-2.08)/256) * (1-(256-3.12)/256)
19:23:36 <DorpsGek> Samu: 0.0119904571975
19:23:54 <Wolf01> Do you really need to use the chat like an excel sheet?
19:23:59 <Samu> @calc (256-1.04)/256 * (256-2.08)/256 * (1-(256-3.12)/256)
19:23:59 <DorpsGek> Samu: 0.0120393671265
19:28:44 <Samu> 2 TeshiNet v4 - bankrupt 08-2000
19:28:50 <Samu> all from server 2 bankrupted
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19:35:01 <Borg> Samu: bc - An arbitrary precision calculator language
19:38:47 <Alberth> bc(1) would have been a little too cryptic :p
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19:55:18 <Wolf01> That looks too much nazi :(
19:56:35 <Wolf01> Also RIP Dolores O'Riordan :(
19:59:21 <andythenorth> she didn't let it linger
20:09:20 <Samu> 1 AIAI v97 - bankrupt 11-2003
20:11:37 <Wolf01> And then the player tried to purchase a ship... but canals disappeared from the game!
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20:13:33 <Samu> I expect everyone to bankrupt
20:13:59 <Samu> how long does it take for inflation to reach its max?
20:19:42 <Alberth> 170 * 13.something minutes
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20:29:32 <supermop_work> andythenorth: i might release new spool tonight
20:29:38 <supermop_work> if cc is now in nrt
20:31:29 <supermop_work> im unsure how i want to draw the wires at the end of line loops
20:31:42 <supermop_work> having them make the tight U looks a little odd
20:32:10 <Wolf01> With a pole in the middle
20:32:54 <supermop_work> Wolf01: that would be realistic in many cases, but when tramway ends but road continues, the pole will be in the middle of the road
20:33:01 <V453000> I READ V I GET TRIGGERED
20:33:19 <V453000> I'm going to put a pole in your middle!
20:33:50 <__ln__> do we even have any regular poles on the channel anymore
20:33:58 <DorpsGek> __ln__: I have not seen MeusH.
20:34:15 <supermop_work> and NRT doesn't let you give poles a bounding box or position, so it wont draw as 'between' the RVs in the two lanes
20:34:19 <Alberth> just the North and South pole, I think
20:48:08 <Samu> the day with the highest chance to breakdown is the 16th
20:50:08 <Samu> this is with Kira's patch
20:50:45 <Samu> i dunno, maybe i'm missing something in it
20:51:50 <Samu> it is assuming 0% reliability
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21:07:38 <Samu> 1 CPU v5 - bankrupt 05-2008
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21:09:11 <andythenorth> anyone got FIRS translations?
21:09:19 <andythenorth> might as well release...again
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21:19:18 <andythenorth> Wolf01: what's next?
21:21:37 <supermop_work_> andythenorth: greeble on poles
21:21:48 <supermop_work_> greeble on everything
21:22:05 <supermop_work_> greeble on greeble
21:31:37 <Samu> strange, Rondje is no longer restarting its routes
21:33:51 <andythenorth> rise of the machines
21:33:56 <andythenorth> Wolf01: Monday bad for code eh?
21:34:43 <Wolf01> Headache, low bandwidth...
21:35:49 <frosch123> we need someone who knows ngynx :)
21:36:26 <andythenorth> self-maintained things scare me :)
21:36:37 <andythenorth> but when it works, it works
21:38:45 <frosch123> was it just me, or was c++17 released silently in december?
21:46:19 <LordAro> frosch123: marginally silently
21:47:32 <andythenorth> does a FIRS ever get done? o_O
21:47:38 <andythenorth> or do I just keep refining until I die?
21:49:15 <frosch123> maybe you turn away disgusted after doing the oil&dates economy
21:58:16 <V453000> frosch123: nerf bots ?:)
21:58:42 <frosch123> V453000: twinsen always has my opinion
21:58:59 <V453000> always is a strong word :)
21:59:20 <V453000> I'm just curious what you think on the subject
21:59:55 <frosch123> i only use logistic rebots for character transport, other usages were as boring as ottd planes after the first game
22:00:06 <frosch123> so i never did it again
22:00:17 <frosch123> even if you nerve them i would not use them
22:00:23 <V453000> but the megabase builders are so attach to them :0
22:00:26 <frosch123> so, i do not care :)
22:00:55 <V453000> I kind of expected that, but then it's not great to have the game require you to realize that it's a dumb feature :D
22:01:05 <frosch123> well, i think there is only one achievement "no logistics"
22:01:30 <frosch123> is there some other kind of scoring?
22:01:52 <V453000> well usually people rate their factory by amount of science packs produced per minute
22:02:05 <V453000> the big base builders that is
22:02:27 <frosch123> yes, i also used that metric
22:02:39 <frosch123> but more as a benchmark when to stop
22:03:25 <V453000> well the thing is that they are trying to reach as much SPM as possible, currently 4000 seems to be the max for 60UPS
22:03:43 <V453000> and they do it with robots, any smallest nerf of robots makes them mega triggered
22:04:09 <V453000> they don't even care that the game is about building many things, they just want to see the number
22:04:19 <frosch123> anyway, from last fff, the option "increase charging time to only affect requesters, but not player" sounded most reasonable
22:05:03 <frosch123> V453000: yes, that's where ottd fails :p we cannot change anything
22:05:20 <V453000> I think reducing the cargo size limit would actually be more interesting, possibly even making the charging faster
22:05:29 <V453000> because currently the charging gets annoying really quickly
22:05:37 <andythenorth> frosch123: a fork could change things :P
22:06:03 <frosch123> V453000: or add collisions :p
22:06:09 <V453000> yeah that's not going to happen :D
22:06:15 <frosch123> flying biters who eat them
22:06:43 <frosch123> degrade solar power when the robots darken the sky
22:07:44 <frosch123> V453000: anyway, i do not like the "reduce cargo size"
22:08:06 <frosch123> the thing with only using them for player transport is that you need a very limited amount of them
22:08:18 <V453000> my suggestion is basically making belts as convenient to use a possible with some things like upgrade/replace planner (basically deconstruction planner which issues replacement), power armor equipment which stops belts from moving the player character, changing beacon formula so that the more beacons you add, the more beacon efficiency decreases so that making 1-4 beacon layouts is quite close to optimal setup too, and moving the express bel
22:08:20 <frosch123> i never can decide whether to automate that or handcraft them
22:08:23 <V453000> but giving express belt more speed
22:08:28 <frosch123> handcrafting is easier if you only need like 50
22:09:26 <V453000> well the current attempts are reducing charging like 4 times while doubling the battery capacity, so it makes them charge like 8 times longer if they deplete completely
22:10:35 <frosch123> hmm, i really like belts moving the character
22:10:50 <frosch123> also, beacons are another thing i never use :p
22:11:11 <V453000> it's a nice detail early, but late when you have belts basically everywhere, it becomes really frustrating when you missclick when building more belts all the time
22:11:27 <V453000> especially now when you can replace the splitter/UGbelt with a normal belt
22:11:57 <frosch123> true, misclicks got more annoying since they can remove splitters and tunnels :p
22:12:30 <frosch123> oh, you said the same :)
22:13:21 <andythenorth> I gave up on F because of the belts
22:13:25 <andythenorth> I couldn't understand them
22:15:04 <frosch123> well, solar power is the problem
22:15:22 <frosch123> robots cost only electricity
22:15:42 <frosch123> they use would be limited if they would require more energy than the coal they are transporting would give
22:16:12 <frosch123> but nuclear is already pretty effective, and solar is infinite
22:16:45 <frosch123> V453000: maybe robots could eat repair packs?
22:17:20 <frosch123> something which is not as free as energy
22:20:35 <frosch123> or fuel like trains
22:23:58 <V453000> having them consume Something is an idea I read multiple times already and I'm not sure what do I think
22:24:16 <V453000> you are definitely right that infinite non-UPS affecting solar just makes energy irrelevant
22:24:51 <V453000> nuclear is good but megabases don't even use it because solar panels calculate all as 1 entity as they share the same state, so ... :)
22:24:57 <V453000> can't optimize vs that
22:29:30 <V453000> I'll think further about the repair pack consumption
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22:30:07 <V453000> thing is I'm not sure if that really makes them more interesting and what exactly happens when they are out of repair packs
22:30:18 <V453000> they'd get slow like if they had no battery I guess
22:30:19 <Gustavo6046> why is the latest OpenTTD not in apt?
22:30:36 <frosch123> V453000: sit silent inside the robotport
22:31:05 <V453000> well the thing is you can still let robots deliver the service packs to the roboport :P
22:31:28 <frosch123> ah, so want to make them recover themself
22:31:51 <frosch123> i thought everything would stop and you would at least have to deliver the repair packs to the ports via belts :p
22:32:29 <V453000> well yeah that's in theory but once it starts running and they always deliver enough new service packs to the roboport's requester ... :)
22:32:46 <frosch123> well, possibly annoying for ports far aways from the center of the base
22:33:40 <V453000> well you can always just blueprint service pack makers all over the place and deliver everything from/to them by more robots ._.
22:33:49 <V453000> they are the logical answer to everything
22:34:04 <frosch123> no, i was thinking about the less extreme case
22:34:16 <frosch123> like when a casual gamer just wants a few robots for fun
22:34:38 <frosch123> and everything breaks down because you temporarily run out of packs
22:34:52 <frosch123> and it does not automatically resume or something
22:35:19 <frosch123> like when you run out of train fuel, and you do not notice, and then have to collect the broken down trains from all around the network
22:35:28 <V453000> well yeah like a burner power system capable of blackout
22:35:30 <frosch123> but ok, i see, that case also exists for trains :)
22:36:29 <V453000> it's a tough topic :)
22:36:49 <V453000> and just adding a service pack price to running them would keep the throughput potential anyway
22:38:03 <Gustavo6046> I can't install OpenTTD's .deb package using apt-get because it can't find libicu52 on the repostiory!
22:38:05 <frosch123> but at a way higher cost
22:38:44 <Gustavo6046> I have to download it manually.
22:38:58 <Gustavo6046> But I shouldn't have to download all the dependencies it doesn't find by hand!
22:38:59 <frosch123> what would be the impact if a rocket would cost 10% more iron, just because you transport everything by robot?
22:39:20 <frosch123> Gustavo6046: use the generic binary, it links icu statically, all the .deb are too old
22:39:37 <V453000> hm, yeah, like an anti-productivity module :D
22:39:53 <Gustavo6046> frosch123, what is that?
22:39:57 <Gustavo6046> there is no 'generic' package
22:40:09 <frosch123> there is a generic linux package
22:40:11 <V453000> what seems weird is that nothing else is being upkept in the game :)
22:40:24 <frosch123> V453000: trains use fuel
22:40:33 <Gustavo6046> where do I find that
22:40:56 <V453000> fuel = energy = electricity
22:41:10 <V453000> service pack feels different
22:41:21 <Gustavo6046> is it this zip thing?
22:41:38 <Gustavo6046> that is just a copy of the game
22:42:05 <Gustavo6046> I don't have an idea what you mean, frosch123
22:42:10 <Gustavo6046> that is just a copy of the game
22:42:20 <frosch123> V453000: argueably, building more solar panels also just costs copper
22:42:21 <Gustavo6046> I already have it but I want to install a newer version of it
22:42:25 <Gustavo6046> because in apt the latest version is 1.5.2
22:42:35 <V453000> solar panels are broken AF
22:42:42 <frosch123> Gustavo6046: so, unpack the tar.gz and run the binary which is inside
22:43:01 <V453000> and now they are also annoying to stamp due to cliffs :D you have to find a non-cliffy area for your farm
22:43:12 <frosch123> Gustavo6046: doesn't matter, your home folder?
22:43:24 <Gustavo6046> I must unpack it where the old OpenTTD installation is
22:43:27 <Gustavo6046> it was made by apt
22:43:41 <frosch123> V453000: i must have had bad luck, almost no cliffs on my map
22:43:53 <V453000> the randomness noise has a giant scale
22:44:02 <V453000> it's entirely possible to get a map without -thing-
22:44:32 <frosch123> Gustavo6046: i can't help you fight the problems you invent yourself
22:44:35 <V453000> it's one of the things being looked at for 0.17
22:44:50 <Gustavo6046> I did not invent it
22:45:03 <Gustavo6046> apt-get's version of OpenTTD is 1.5.2 but it's too old for this server I'm trying to join
22:45:10 <frosch123> you want to pack it where the old version was, but there is zero need for that, just have both
22:45:22 <Gustavo6046> but I don't want to install OpenGFX etc again
22:45:25 <Gustavo6046> (yes I'm that lazy)
22:45:29 <frosch123> also no need for that
22:45:34 <frosch123> they can share the data files
22:46:20 <Gustavo6046> is that another tedious proceeding?
22:46:47 <frosch123> just unpack the .tar.gz in your home folder, start the binary, and find everything you had before
22:47:28 <Samu> 6 gelignAIte v1 - bankrupt 11-2011
22:47:51 <V453000> well thank you for your input frosch123 :) I'll think about it
22:47:52 <frosch123> maybe "find" is the wrong word, i meant to say, it just works
22:48:08 <frosch123> V453000: you're welcome, also blame twinsen
22:48:18 <V453000> we do that every day :P
22:49:43 <frosch123> also i expect 4 authors for "bots vers belts (part 3)" :p
22:50:11 <V453000> there will hopefully not be any, or at least lengthy part3 :)
22:50:17 <frosch123> i wonder when you run out of staff that way
22:51:59 <V453000> good night, thanks :)
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23:56:18 <Samu> 5 NoNoCAB v5 - bankrupt 11-2020
23:57:56 <Samu> did anyone really test infrastructure maintenance costs with inflation?
continue to next day ⏵
