IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-12-26
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00:01:57 <Alkel_U3> I vaguely remember that some DOS games allowed tomove the cursor with keyboard. I know Master of Orion did and I think I recall TT having left-mouse-click on numeric zero?
00:03:14 <Eddi|zuHause> no, it was ins/del
00:03:52 <Eddi|zuHause> arrow keys moved the map (well, they still do), with shift it goes faster
00:04:10 <Eddi|zuHause> and alt+arrow keys moved the curser (they don't anymore), also with shift faster
00:04:23 <Alkel_U3> oh my, I don't even have dosbox on this laptop. Yet.
00:04:50 <Eddi|zuHause> modern OSes tend to have keyboard-mouse function, but it's just not the same...
00:05:46 <frosch123> do you refer to mouses with 10+ buttons?
00:06:10 <Eddi|zuHause> no, moving the mouse cursor with your regular keyboard
00:06:36 <Eddi|zuHause> you mean mouse-keyboards :p
00:10:47 <Eddi|zuHause> but he can't go diagonal with that
00:12:25 <Eddi|zuHause> you could try dual tone whistling (careful if you have a phone nearby) :p
00:15:38 <Alkel_U3> Ï' justwaiting for the day when I can plug the computer directly into my brain and enjoy fullimmersion playing Alley Cat
00:16:18 <Alkel_U3> I'm also looking forward to the day I clean out my space bar
00:17:28 <frosch123> don't know why i remembered that shit
00:19:37 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure how that is related to what i said, but...
00:23:18 <Alkel_U3> I'm not gonna lie, that did make me laugh a little
00:25:13 <Alkel_U3> and this is just a step away from floppy drive orchestra
01:20:11 <supermop> would have been neat if we had two instruction books to split up the modules
01:21:14 <supermop> now I want to dig out the old bins in my parents basement and make my own modules
01:21:37 <supermop> also: we were somehow shorted two 1x1 tan bricks
01:22:03 <supermop> but were able to find two 25+ year old ones in the basement that had yellowed enough to match
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01:37:52 <Wolf01> You can get them for free on the lego customer service, just tell them they were missing on the box, you might have to tell them the production code on the platic bags
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03:14:10 <supermop> i think we threw the bags away already
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11:47:20 <Eddi|zuHause> get a moderator to split it off?
11:48:58 <Wolf01> Nah, they are trying to cram into NRT something which doesn't belong to it
12:02:48 <andythenorth> forums are gonna forum
12:05:07 <Wolf01> Ok, I lost my challenge even today... I already started F
12:05:26 <andythenorth> I haven't played tanks for a couple of days
12:05:57 <Wolf01> I played like 17 hours in 2 days
12:06:02 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i win that F challenge
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12:32:57 <andythenorth> Makefiles or Tanks?
12:33:45 <andythenorth> built the tow truck
12:34:02 <andythenorth> it has. a wolf on it
12:34:30 <Wolf01> I'll put tracks in place of the rear wheels
12:34:41 <andythenorth> I might scrap it
12:38:54 <Wolf01> The fastrac is nice too, I wanted to use the second claas to build one
12:43:11 <andythenorth> that Bushwacker basically is the tow truck eh
12:44:28 <Wolf01> Ha! Being lazy unlocked another achievemente in F
12:49:30 <andythenorth> I have to maintain 4, all subtly different :P
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13:30:29 <Wolf01> Make a python script which creates the makefiles
13:32:30 <andythenorth> that is a good idea
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14:33:11 <andythenorth> branched newgrfs :(
14:34:40 <andythenorth> I've got a branched Road Hog with NRT support
14:34:48 <andythenorth> and of course, other changes that should be in default :x
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14:53:12 <Eddi|zuHause> well, put them in default then
14:55:18 <andythenorth> that means I have to learn mercurial properly
14:55:31 <andythenorth> can't just cherrypick them in :P
14:56:24 <Eddi|zuHause> tortoisehg has a "transplant" feature, where you can pick revisions of one branch and put them in another
14:56:38 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure that command line has that as well
14:56:55 <andythenorth> seems hg 'graft' is a more modern version of transplant
14:57:53 <andythenorth> might be easier to just merge branches
14:57:57 <andythenorth> then delete the NRT stuff from Hog
14:58:20 <Eddi|zuHause> or merge NRT into trunk, and then put the NRT stuff in default?
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15:00:17 <andythenorth> I'm trying to diff branches to find out what I need to remove
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15:28:53 <LordAro> put it in trunk, and decide at 1.8 branch point if it's stable enough to keep?
15:34:42 <Rubidium> shouldn't it then be merged before the christmas eve beta release?
15:35:31 <frosch123> the issues with it are known for 10 months
15:36:25 <frosch123> just use unofficial versions if you want something which is 75% unused, and 25% exploited to do stuff which was not considered
15:42:29 <andythenorth> there is an NRT binary which is so close to 'official' that it's semantics to say it's not :P
15:42:56 <andythenorth> I see no gain in shipping a feature in trunk nightlies which will have to be deleted later
15:47:58 <LordAro> it'll get used and bugs/deficiencies will be found?
15:48:20 <frosch123> they are already found
15:52:14 <Eddi|zuHause> so start from scratch or what is the plan?
15:52:49 <frosch123> don't know other plans
15:53:02 <andythenorth> I have no plans :)
15:53:05 <frosch123> from my pov the spec is broken, so i wrote a new one
15:53:17 <andythenorth> BGT opens up a whole interesting can of worms
15:53:29 <andythenorth> but I'm scared of the UI part. :P
15:55:30 <andythenorth> commented 2 sections of NRT Hog
16:00:39 <andythenorth> slow jenkins is slow
16:01:50 <andythenorth> or it stopped updating the progress gif
16:02:12 <andythenorth> ok so I've placated angry Jenkins now :)
16:03:05 <andythenorth> usual amount of yak shaving :D
16:04:44 <frosch123> hmm, i guess spinning comes first
16:06:04 <andythenorth> I think I'll update Sam instead ;)
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16:06:11 <andythenorth> while it's in my head
16:07:31 <andythenorth> so the vehicle part of NRT still looks fine to me :P
16:07:40 <andythenorth> it's the tile part that was a mess IMHO
16:12:19 <andythenorth> frosch123: I have a 33% sensible idea around 'tile types'
16:12:19 <andythenorth> applicable to routes, stations, objects
16:14:34 <andythenorth> as much as it's complete :P
16:14:34 <andythenorth> I'll try a longer version
16:14:34 <andythenorth> not sure what problem it's solving yet
16:14:34 <andythenorth> I think it's just BGT again
16:25:53 <andythenorth> it's not a cohesive idea yet
16:26:29 <andythenorth> idea is that player can change 'surface' on any relevant tile they own, without having to rebuild routes, objects etc on that tile
16:30:05 <andythenorth> most of new stations then disappears
16:31:39 <andythenorth> old new stations would have to die
16:31:42 <andythenorth> but the spec is weird anyway
16:32:17 <Borg> hmm playing w/ stockpiling industries. is so much fun :)
16:34:03 <andythenorth> frosch123: ^^^^ stuff
16:44:57 <andythenorth> the initial mockup UI in BGT seems weird to me
16:45:06 <andythenorth> I want to be able to pick any tile I own and change the ground
16:45:24 <andythenorth> 'want' is a strong word there, it's not much needed
16:45:34 <andythenorth> but as a solution to most of stations and roads :P
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17:09:31 <Rubidium> isn't it just better to use p1sim?
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17:26:05 <frosch123> Rubidium: V was too busy to attend the machinsky talk
17:26:22 <frosch123> so, we have no intelligence report on that
17:31:40 <andythenorth> how do I get a grfid for incompatible checks?
17:31:47 <andythenorth> bananas reports 52530101
17:32:39 <frosch123> i think ottd also displays it in-game
17:38:33 <andythenorth> 2 different grfs :)
17:42:59 <andythenorth> the in-game version matches the bananas version
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17:43:30 <andythenorth> oh looks like I got bored of this and fixed it in FIRS
17:43:38 <andythenorth> seems I can use literal or dword
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17:59:20 <andythenorth> so FIRS 3 beta is done
17:59:38 <andythenorth> and wait for bug reports
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18:05:06 <frosch123> i thought the page was already reworked
18:05:25 <andythenorth> "ECONOMIES WORK IN ALL CLIMATES - HOW TO EXPLAIN?"
18:05:32 <andythenorth> "This is to avoid conflicts that can cause FIRS to NOT WORK RIGHT. You'll see a message if this happens."
18:05:52 <andythenorth> also someone new here reported that the page was totally confusing
18:06:00 <andythenorth> but I didn't write down what they said :P
18:12:55 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> "This is to avoid conflicts that can cause FIRS to NOT WORK RIGHT. You'll see a message if this happens." <-- this is totally useless information to anyone that is not a developer
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18:29:31 <Samu> Improved Oil Rig Layout \52\53\01\01
18:29:42 <Samu> conflicts with my newgrf :)
18:31:25 <andythenorth> ok maybe this page is done for now
18:31:30 <andythenorth> I'm not really happy with it
18:33:20 <frosch123> add a "if you do not know which vehicle sets to use, use steel pony, squid and street boar"
18:33:58 <frosch123> newbies like to get vendor locked
18:34:15 <Samu> how's that it conflicts? i only added water checks to oil rigs :(
18:35:55 <andythenorth> Samu: dunno, but it was likely reported in forum
18:36:11 <Rubidium> Samu: think what happens when I'd be able to call myself Samu on this IRC channel while you're connected as well
18:38:02 <andythenorth> I don't test what's incompatible, I just add the check and test that FIRS disables itself :)
18:38:11 <Rubidium> or am I, as usually, missing some external reference somewhere? I'm only assuming that Improved Oil Rig Layout conflicts with your NewGRF because it has the same GRFID as your NewGRF
18:39:32 <andythenorth> Rubidium: there is a bit of missing context :)
18:39:45 <andythenorth> and it's incompatible with FIRS
18:42:21 <Samu> i dont have anything refering IORL at all, not even OIL_
18:42:35 <andythenorth> Improved Oil Rig Layout
18:43:19 <andythenorth> IORL Is An Acronym
18:43:42 <Samu> why does my oil rig produce bauxite? :(
18:44:25 <Samu> ppl always find ways to break stuff
18:44:30 <andythenorth> it relies on cargo having a specific ID
18:44:36 <andythenorth> instead of using the cargo label
18:44:55 <andythenorth> FIRS bauxite uses the ID you're expecting oil to have
18:45:22 <andythenorth> at least in that economy :P
18:47:03 <andythenorth> frosch123: do I explicitly allow a translator into eints via redmine?
18:47:06 <andythenorth> or is there magix?
18:47:16 <andythenorth> I assume I just add them to relevant group
18:47:27 <frosch123> groups are handled globally
18:48:01 <andythenorth> I was going to add them in the user admin
18:48:31 <frosch123> well, yes, click the user, add them to the group
18:49:55 <andythenorth> I am reading eints manual currently
18:50:06 <frosch123> it has nothing to do with eints
18:51:26 <andythenorth> is it documented anywhere?
18:51:42 <frosch123> 1. click user, 2. select groups tab, 3 click group checkbox 4. click apply
18:52:49 <andythenorth> I know how to do it in redmine, I just wasn't sure what's right :P
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19:45:47 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27951 trunk/src/lang/spanish_MX.txt (2017-12-26 19:45:39 +0100 )
19:45:49 <DorpsGek> spanish (mexican): 6 changes by Absay
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20:16:19 <andythenorth> except I made it more generalised
20:16:27 <andythenorth> dunno if I'm being stupid
20:17:33 <frosch123> yes, there are like 3 things: tiles with infrastructure (stations, road, rail), tiles with cargo piles (stations) and non-gameplay stuff (objects)
20:18:02 <frosch123> currently some things are provided by newobjects, newstations, nrt and bgt
20:18:10 <frosch123> but there is no 1:1 mapping between them
20:18:46 <frosch123> possibly there is a 4th type: non-player constructed, like landscape
20:19:25 <frosch123> like the ridiculous amount of landscape textures f gained meanwhile
20:19:36 <frosch123> there used to be "just grass"
20:21:26 <andythenorth> I left industries out, because that's mostly solved
20:21:45 <andythenorth> I think the interesting thing is to separate ground from structures
20:21:59 <andythenorth> 'structures' includes buildings, routes, cargo
20:22:21 <andythenorth> still not sure exactly what problem is solved, but it seems interesting
20:28:12 <frosch123> i think it's about visual consistency
20:28:23 <frosch123> you want stations and roads and industries to fit
20:29:04 <andythenorth> newgrfs suggest so :)
20:29:21 <andythenorth> dunno about registering tiles into a global pool though
20:29:25 <andythenorth> which is one of my ideas
20:29:32 <andythenorth> cross-grf resources :P
21:13:13 <LordAro> probably out of catchment
21:14:16 <frosch123> but probably just link the manual and close
21:15:06 <andythenorth> probably covers some, but not enough houses
21:15:08 <andythenorth> so no acceptance
21:15:18 <andythenorth> so cargodist won't establish an A-B link
21:15:22 <andythenorth> I can repro that
21:21:16 <LordAro> "just don't do the subsidy then"
21:23:57 <andythenorth> I didn't get the count below 300 :P
21:43:09 <andythenorth> frosch123: is there enough map to store some index into groundtypes? o_O
21:43:55 <frosch123> if it is useful, there is always enough map
21:44:31 <andythenorth> maybe I should survey station and object sets
21:44:43 <andythenorth> quite possibly I am only considering my case with FIRS / CHIPS etc
21:44:59 <frosch123> "not enough map" is just an easy excuse to deny teenager's "i want everything" request
21:51:00 <Eddi|zuHause> memory is (nearly) infinite, but not when you treat it that way
21:51:40 <frosch123> compare 9mb of a 1kx1k map with 2gb of sprite cache
21:51:58 <Thedarkb> As someone with a 256mb machine.......
21:52:29 <andythenorth> not sure where groundtypes would originate
21:52:34 <andythenorth> some new grf class?
21:52:49 <frosch123> when talking about map sizes you are at best talking about cache optimisation
21:52:59 <frosch123> and afaik noone ever optimised ottd on that level
21:53:09 <frosch123> except for map alignment
21:54:46 <andythenorth> I have often wanted to change ground type in CHIPS recently
21:54:58 <andythenorth> the building tiles have a fixed style of ground sprite
21:55:14 <andythenorth> and duplicating them just for ground is overkill
21:57:02 <andythenorth> CHIPS New Objects duplicates a lot for groundtype :P
21:57:06 <andythenorth> I didn't make that :)
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