IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-09-29
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04:21:47 <supermop_home> should a 16m tram be 8/8
04:22:16 <supermop_home> i know this set isn't supposed to be true to any real prototype
04:22:46 <supermop_home> my ps template has a maximum length of 7/8
04:23:08 <supermop_home> but I planned this 70s tram to be conspicuously long
04:23:54 <supermop_home> and stupid mistake on my part led to me not realizing I had built everything up around 7/8 as my maximum length
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04:31:28 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_home: CETS uses 2m=1/8 scale
04:33:15 <Eddi|zuHause> but i think more important than a real-to-game length scale is that length-to-capacity ratio is consistent
04:33:40 <Eddi|zuHause> GermanRV has huge problems with that
04:34:03 <supermop_home> the tram i am trying to base this on had a pretty huge real capacity
04:34:44 <supermop_home> like 70+ seats in original configuration i thing
04:36:02 <supermop_home> my capacity is actually slightly less than the next tram, which is only 7/8
04:36:35 <supermop_home> 8/8 does at least let the wheels get a less awkward spacing
04:37:13 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, trams work best when they are a full tile long
04:37:51 <Eddi|zuHause> (or around that)
04:38:18 <supermop_home> 16/8 rigid trams are kind of odd, but yeah I agree
04:38:34 <Eddi|zuHause> articulated, usually
04:38:41 <Eddi|zuHause> or simply two wagons
04:38:42 <supermop_home> it's simpler to space them out if they are >16/8
04:39:02 <Eddi|zuHause> halftile trams always get stuck behind another tram
04:39:09 <Eddi|zuHause> because they don't separate at stations
04:39:41 <supermop_home> my articulated trams are generally 16 or longer
05:33:37 <supermop_home> hmm when it was just green and yellow, Melbourne tram livery was easy to parse into 2cc
05:34:46 <supermop_home> under older yarra trams I guess i'd say it was green 1cc, blue 2cc?
05:35:07 <supermop_home> or would it be white 1cc and green 2cc? hard to say
05:36:11 <supermop_home> later yarra trams livery, and current PTV livery, green seems to be the 1cc, but is the yellow/hi-vis the 2cc? or is that just an accident
05:37:19 <supermop_home> I guess you could say it is green 1cc, dark green 2cc, and the white and yellow are just part of the tram body, and would be there regardless of branding
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10:17:38 <V453000> what are you automating?
10:18:13 <andythenorth> train graphics processing
10:18:46 <V453000> you know you could just...
10:18:57 <andythenorth> is not pixels :P
10:19:19 <andythenorth> I could just…draw them
10:21:15 <V453000> fuck I need to throw shit away from my table
10:21:21 <V453000> can't fit stuff for shit
10:28:16 <V453000> k threw away 1 monitor, 1 keyboard, 1 mouse, 1 tea cup, minor amount of random shit :D so much better
10:28:24 <V453000> so I'm tryinng this NUTS thing
10:29:05 <V453000> it looks mediocre, some of the trains looks awesome, some of them less, but I was trying to build some train and it keeps screaming at me "can't connect this wagon"
10:29:13 <V453000> should I read the text at the purchase menu?
10:29:22 <andythenorth> why would anybody read that?
10:29:24 <V453000> also how do I tell which train is for what?
10:29:45 <andythenorth> just use cabeese
10:29:55 <V453000> well some of trains even change colours as they go
10:29:59 <V453000> does it mean they are for everything?
10:30:13 <V453000> also why do some trains look like gastropods
10:30:37 <Eddi|zuHause> because arthropods would have been scarier?
10:31:24 <V453000> nah I think they would just not work very well with long train shapes
10:31:31 <V453000> there's even an engine which looks like cat
10:31:44 <V453000> or that one has hair and ALL the rainbow colours ... is it for everything again?
10:31:56 <V453000> and why on earth do my rails look like a piece of river or canal
10:32:07 <V453000> is there some tutorial?
10:32:20 <Eddi|zuHause> does it sing nyanyanyan?
10:32:34 <V453000> no it seems like some stupid fat ass black cat, not even the nyan thing
10:35:35 <V453000> where do I find NUTS 2?
10:35:40 <V453000> it can't get any worse than this
10:39:15 <andythenorth> NUTS 2 is not done yet
10:42:09 <V453000> well I guess it's for the better that the author just stops
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12:20:23 <andythenorth> V453000: now what?
12:21:55 <andythenorth> automated all the graphics
12:22:06 <andythenorth> should probably wreck FIRS now
12:23:36 <andythenorth> way too full of snot to make good decisions
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13:39:17 <andythenorth> wagon recolouring
13:39:38 <andythenorth> specially if I do it wrong
13:41:25 <andythenorth> do it for some cargos only
13:42:27 <V453000> well you could have the CC in a different layer you know :P
13:43:12 <V453000> iz probably what I'm going to do, if I don't just straight up ignore CC in wagons
13:43:57 <V453000> I will have it only on the engine
13:44:09 <V453000> on wagons it's nice to see but mandatory? eh
13:44:18 <V453000> I prefer to have a colour which tells which cargo the wagon can carry
13:44:32 <V453000> but that's just my current concept, no rule
13:47:53 <andythenorth> maybe I do same for more types
13:48:30 <andythenorth> it’s almost zero effort, I just have to draw in purple not blue :P
13:48:38 <andythenorth> and bollocks with defining recolour maps
13:51:37 <V453000> the gray ring looks kind of weird
13:51:41 <V453000> not as shaded as the tank
13:52:00 <V453000> well defining recolour maps isn't that horrible
13:52:10 <V453000> and you can reuse it for all wagons
13:53:12 <andythenorth> gray ring is ladder, might be bollocks
13:54:18 <V453000> well a ladder would still be influenced by light in some way
13:54:21 * andythenorth must now to automation
13:54:30 <andythenorth> even more complicated pipeline :P
13:54:32 <V453000> and I would use more of a |||||||| texture for a ladder
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14:30:26 <andythenorth> just add more colours to remap
15:46:51 <supermop_> andythenorth: how many liveries too many?
15:47:25 <andythenorth> but I like CC, so I’m not doing it for all
15:47:27 <supermop_> and should i break all my templates to make the z 8/8?
15:48:22 <V453000> recolouring is great, but I am really missing the noise
15:48:25 <V453000> this reminds me of 2cc set
15:48:32 <supermop_> wheels fit better on 8/8
15:49:00 <supermop_> and real zs were stupidly long compared to what came before and after
15:49:18 <andythenorth> V453000: noise later
15:49:23 <andythenorth> also I frigging hate noise :)
15:49:26 <andythenorth> but I’ll add some
15:49:42 <andythenorth> supermop_: you used 28px templates? o_O
15:50:07 <supermop_> big mistake i realized only when starting trams
15:50:27 <supermop_> ogfx+rvs are all 7/8
15:51:01 <andythenorth> probably original style
15:52:22 <supermop_> rigid trucks look best short
15:52:46 <andythenorth> V453000 went to godwin already
15:52:50 <andythenorth> and it’s not even 3pm
15:53:56 <supermop_> messed up mytemplates, PS slices, etc
15:54:26 <supermop_> can fix, just can't be arsed for 1 tram
15:54:51 <supermop_> nothing else in the set is 8/8
15:54:58 <andythenorth> not totally convinced by body recolouring
15:59:00 <andythenorth> body colour has to contrast with cargo colour
15:59:07 <andythenorth> unlike tankers, which use cargo colour for body
15:59:57 <supermop_> Arbitraryrulesthenorth
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16:00:51 <supermop_> wife and other non-openttd people voted in favor of the long tram as being more melbourney
16:01:30 <supermop_> i feel like i am disregarding my arbitrary rules too much, whereas andy is following his too closely
16:03:59 <andythenorth> so body colouring - parameter to turn it off or what?
16:15:27 <supermop_> i see a lot of essentially black coal hoppers in the midwest
16:15:46 <supermop_> and i have seen plenty of of photos of maroon iron ore hoppers
16:16:08 <andythenorth> RL they tend to colour the body to match the cargo
16:16:17 <andythenorth> so that overspill is less visible
16:16:21 <supermop_> stays cleaners looking
16:16:24 <andythenorth> we need the inverse :)
16:16:58 <supermop_> i mean are you designing this strictly from a high contrast accessibility standpoint?
16:17:06 <supermop_> ADA doesn't apply to video games
16:18:15 <andythenorth> needs to be obvious if wagon is loaded or empty ;)
16:18:22 <andythenorth> also V453000 has a scheme
16:19:13 <andythenorth> how about patches of colour on the body?
16:19:22 <andythenorth> rather than colouring all of it?
16:19:34 <supermop_> like a little placard
16:19:37 <andythenorth> only works if the wagon is big enough
16:20:42 <supermop_> one extra length unit in | ... 1 or 2 px?
16:21:04 <supermop_> i generally have 1.5px per 1/8 in |
16:22:15 <andythenorth> supermop_: for length in | , just half the length of –
16:22:20 <andythenorth> measuring along the roof
16:22:25 <andythenorth> then add ~8 for body height
16:22:32 <andythenorth> depends on how high vehicle is :)
16:22:53 <supermop_> im a little off that - my 7/8 are 13 px long |
16:23:22 <supermop_> 16px | would be a huge leap
16:24:08 <supermop_> not sure how i ended up with 4px -> 1.5ishpx instead of 2
16:24:58 <supermop_> i think i was shortening trams so the pole would stick out past them when down
16:25:08 <andythenorth> | view is rarely seen for RVs
16:25:13 <andythenorth> I wouldn’t worry about it
16:25:22 <supermop_> like they all start 1px below the top of blue box
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16:25:50 <supermop_> if i don't have to increase | blue, i can keep my PS slices
16:26:01 <andythenorth> hmm, colour chip looks nice
16:26:19 <supermop_> so i'll make the Z 15px|
16:26:40 <supermop_> original coal wagons had CC square
16:31:00 <andythenorth> supermop_: could put a railfreight sector logo on the engines :P
16:31:04 <andythenorth> depending on refit
16:31:18 <supermop_> all i've ever wanted
16:31:50 <supermop_> generic locomotive livery based on wagons, rather than wagon livery based on locomotive
16:32:32 <supermop_> sector emblems are a coup of british signage design
16:32:59 <supermop_> and BR was already better at signage and graphics than most other things
16:33:54 <andythenorth> strictly, I could do engine recolour based on cargo too :P
16:34:02 <andythenorth> it’s probably not even much work :(
16:34:17 <andythenorth> probably ruins multiplayer eh
16:34:34 <supermop_> you could make the sector emblem 2cc
16:34:50 <supermop_> grey locomotives with CC squares seems appropriate
16:38:17 <supermop_> i always wondered if the Large logo one was preserved or what, shouldn't it have had a sectorized livery?
16:38:35 <supermop_> did anything else ever get grey large logo?
16:38:36 <V453000> andythenorth: parts being colourful is obviously making it look less like a retarded rail-bound chameleoparrot
16:51:54 <andythenorth> never saw it, but yes
16:52:06 <supermop_> ive seen it on youtube
16:52:45 <supermop_> scene with a bunch of 43s stuck in traffic was nice
16:55:29 <andythenorth> I messed up the hoppers a bit to please V453000
16:55:37 <andythenorth> but they look like a blob now :)
16:59:41 <supermop_> motion graphics at the end of that with the trains making the br logo look impressive for the time
17:02:55 <andythenorth> so cargo-recolouring body
17:03:01 <andythenorth> it’s 50% working
17:03:10 <andythenorth> same amount of work to finish, or remove :P
17:03:17 <supermop_> so apparently that was filmed with all real trains
17:03:52 <supermop_> did they just pull all the 43s out of service to be in that shoot for a day?
17:14:56 <andythenorth> I do kind of like the plain CC for wagons
17:16:43 <supermop_> maybe i'll have a large logo easter egg tram
17:21:52 <Alberth> desperately needs playing!
17:22:44 <Alberth> needs longer game thus :)
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17:23:55 <Alberth> but I like it, good colours of the wagons
17:24:29 <Alberth> engines are more round :)
17:25:21 <andythenorth> I don’t like the wagon colours, I find it confusing :)
17:25:51 <Alberth> quite modern looking to me
17:26:36 <Alberth> engines seem somewhat out of place, you'd expect them to be more rectangular, looking at the wagons
17:27:09 <Alberth> but perhaps it's just that wagons have no top that you can colour
17:28:35 <andythenorth> except for tank wagons :P
17:29:14 <Alberth> CC is company colours?
17:29:29 <Alberth> if so, why do you have differently coloured wagons?
17:29:57 <Alberth> like nuts has unique colours too
17:30:02 <andythenorth> but I already use white, grey etc to theme some kinds of wagon permanently
17:30:10 <andythenorth> and that is lost if other wagons recolour
17:31:58 <Alberth> per cargo doesn't help much in diversity at a single track
17:32:22 <Alberth> you'd need to do random or based on age or so
17:32:50 <Alberth> wagons do look more matching with the engines with CC though
17:33:32 <Alberth> without CC it's a bit two different sets
17:33:43 <Alberth> ie engine set and wagon set
17:34:36 <Alberth> but it gives you more colours for the wagons
17:35:29 <Alberth> ie the CC set really matches with each other, but all wagons are the same blue
17:35:53 <Alberth> (modulo a few lighter/darker variations)
17:40:56 <andythenorth> I already recolour tankers, I’ll keep that
17:41:02 <andythenorth> and maybe box cars should recolour :P
17:41:10 <andythenorth> anything where cargo doesn’t show
17:43:14 <Alberth> maybe make CC a bit more subtle, eg a CC logo-like area?
17:43:38 <Alberth> ie somewhat partly blue
17:44:35 <Alberth> although I'd pick the non-CC set now
17:46:10 <Alberth> I like the modern style
17:46:39 <Alberth> perhaps because it's not common in openttd
17:48:12 <andythenorth> there might be other ways to get same affect, without recolouring wagons per cargo
17:48:40 <Alberth> cargo itself would do that, wouldn't it? :)
17:49:01 <Alberth> box cars with some windows :)
17:50:07 <andythenorth> open-top box cars :P
17:51:47 <Alberth> nuts does colouring the other way around for tank wagons, empty wagons are 50% yellow and 50% red, full are almost completely yellow :)
17:52:05 <Alberth> clearly empty wagons are more dangerous :)
17:52:42 <andythenorth> not sure I care enough about empty vs. loaded tank wagons :)
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17:53:53 <Alberth> you'd use barrels otherwise :)
17:54:51 <andythenorth> could animate vapour coming from full ones
17:55:05 <Alberth> lying on their side, 5 or so (3 at the bottom ,and 2 on top)
17:56:04 <LordAro> V453000: why have i only just connected "friday facts" with being released on a friday?
17:57:00 <LordAro> well i'm on holiday at the moment
17:57:13 <Alberth> perhaps rather week-less :)
17:57:31 <LordAro> eh, it's only a 4 day weekend
17:58:29 <Alberth> you skipped friday :)
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18:14:07 <supermop_> andythenorth: fictional articulated z class: just two of them in multiple?
18:14:14 <supermop_> RH trams seem to be that
18:14:38 <supermop_> or chop off the cabs and throw in a bellows
18:14:59 <supermop_> Zs will be 8/8 once i make my blue bits bigger
18:15:21 <andythenorth> pax trams work best at 16/8
18:15:36 <supermop_> what looks least stupid
18:15:56 <andythenorth> 18/8 is the optimimum length for station performance in my tests
18:16:00 <andythenorth> but 16/8 looks better
18:16:29 <supermop_> regardless of length, though - dead cabs nose to nose in the center, or a single bendy vehicle
18:17:38 <andythenorth> where are they in your progression tree?
18:17:47 <andythenorth> what generation?
18:19:26 <supermop_> other option is single ended trams coupled tail to tail
18:19:48 <supermop_> no prototype for that but wouldn't look too bad
18:20:04 <supermop_> need to hire two trammies tho
18:24:31 <andythenorth> Hog tends to repeat double-cab units
18:24:35 <andythenorth> for drawing reasons
18:24:42 <andythenorth> 50% less of it :P
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18:31:51 <andythenorth> finding 5 ways to draw hopper cars is going to be a PITA
18:31:54 <andythenorth> generations suck :P
18:43:13 <Alberth> engines are much more relevant than wagons, imho
18:51:28 <andythenorth> I think the inverse :)
18:51:38 <andythenorth> literally every newgrf has focussed on baziliions of engines
18:52:07 <andythenorth> except literally Pineapple :P
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19:19:07 <Alberth> andy: most newgrfs make too many available at once, mostly just because RL did that
19:20:50 <andythenorth> I am over-providing wagons :P
19:21:01 <andythenorth> nobody else has done that yet afaik
19:21:03 <Alberth> is horse nightly playable, or are you in the middle of hacking?
19:21:05 <andythenorth> new mistakes to make
19:21:09 <andythenorth> horse is pretty bad
19:21:17 <andythenorth> the graphics are all for — view only :)
19:21:24 <Alberth> "over-providing wagons" :D
19:21:55 <andythenorth> I will have to turn on ‘vehicles expire’ setting
19:22:09 <Alberth> nah, it needs wagons expire :p
19:23:23 <Alberth> I have it turned off now for some time, and it's not a problem, you just hide the old one whenever you're done with it
19:24:17 <Alberth> maybe it becomes a nuisance with a bazillion engines, but I wouldn't dare trying that :p
19:25:34 <Alberth> maybe just aim for more diversity in wagons
19:27:48 <andythenorth> 1900-1990 4 generations
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19:41:49 <frosch123> Alberth: andy learnt that you get the most feedback for teaser images, no need to make stuff playable with other views than ---
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20:11:14 <Alberth> unfortunately that breaks if people want to actually play with the set :p
20:11:49 <Alberth> but fair enough, no point in making all 4 sides if you ditch the wagon anyway
20:13:56 <andythenorth> there’s quite a high rate of deletion :)
20:17:24 <Alberth> s/deletion/progress/ :)
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20:34:18 <frosch123> recently i notice a lot of v cars at the local station
20:34:36 <frosch123> never saw them in ottd
20:34:46 <frosch123> apparently they are for cement and stuff
20:37:07 <andythenorth> frosch123: “Silo Car"
20:37:14 <andythenorth> planning to add tehm
20:38:09 <frosch123> in this shape they always look like broken tank wagons :)
20:42:20 <frosch123> anyway, those dump cars randomise between the two cc?
20:43:17 <andythenorth> if you don’t like it, you can set both cc same also
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21:36:23 * andythenorth allows ridiculous 110mph freight train
21:36:38 <andythenorth> could have a parameter eh, realisms or not
21:37:12 <Wolf01> I was at the station bar today, I noticed we have a lot of freigh trains passing here
21:37:57 <andythenorth> probably not 110mph
21:38:29 <Wolf01> Not in the station for sure
21:38:30 <V453000> 110mph isn't that game-much
21:38:41 <frosch123> they were probably military trains
21:38:55 <frosch123> italy is going to invade monacco, san marino and vatican over the weekend
21:39:29 <frosch123> V453000: why do you know those numbers?
21:39:58 <V453000> well I played the game for some hours you know :P
21:40:21 <V453000> and I have good memory for stupid shit
21:40:26 <V453000> can't remember what I had for lunch
21:40:53 <andythenorth> did you have lunch?
21:41:50 <frosch123> hmm, if you do not know what you had for lunch, what did you have lunch for...
21:42:24 <V453000> lunch won't make pixels for you
21:42:42 <frosch123> ah, it's to avoid licking pixels
21:44:37 <Wolf01> <andythenorth> probably not 110mph <- the ones I've seen are designed for 87mph
21:45:12 <LordAro> bad things happen when it hits 88mph
21:48:35 * andythenorth should draw some
21:48:56 <andythenorth> horse is very bad for compile times
21:53:49 <andythenorth> all the cargo sprites :(
22:01:59 <frosch123> haha, yesterday wolf complains about no new high res pictures, and today v writes fff :p
22:06:19 <V453000> that's the whole message I got nothing else :P
22:06:50 <Wolf01> BTW, really nice, good boy V
22:07:30 <V453000> I'm working on like 4 things simultaneously :P
22:07:32 <Wolf01> Finally the circuit box doesn't look like a sticker on top of the things
22:07:44 <V453000> blender scenes are wrecked, need to redo a lot of stuff
22:07:53 <V453000> even the lamp is done from zero, blend scene didn't exist
22:09:41 <Wolf01> Oh, I noticed today that F/blog has a rss feed
22:12:24 <Wolf01> That wire on the rails...
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22:16:22 <frosch123> Wolf01: it detects trains :) single use only
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23:28:26 <V453000> the land recolouring doesn't quite work very well for tunnels :D
23:29:57 <V453000> well that's basically what I'm doing
23:32:38 <V453000> hm, maybe this hack will work
23:33:27 <Wolf01> Well, I was waiting for a random rss feed update to check if the UI updates as well... well, I was in th wrong tab, missed the update :|
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