IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-09-19
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08:47:43 <Eddi|zuHause> <Alberth> well, newgrf has so much control over displayed graphics, that you need that code to decide what to display <- i think, theoretically, that should be solvable by compiling each action3/2-switch-chain into a shader
08:48:02 <Eddi|zuHause> that still would require updating the game state for every frame
08:48:20 <Eddi|zuHause> but all the resolving could be parallelized
08:51:14 <Eddi|zuHause> mind you, i have no idea how shaders work
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11:56:58 <Wolf01> Well, today I have a goal I will not reach, but the important thing is to aim it not to reach it, right?
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12:07:23 <peter1138> Heh, fainting robots.
12:13:58 <crem> well, specialists say you should split the goal into steps until it's doable in 30 minutes, then do!
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12:48:34 <Wolf01> crem: it's already split, I'm already stuck at the first part
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14:51:29 <Wolf01> I was about to start my train set with prime number lenghts, then I figured out it's too easy to get 16
14:52:07 <Wolf01> 3+3+3+7, 11+5, 3+3+5+5
14:52:47 <V453000> I wanted to convert nuts vehicles to something like 1+2+2+2+1 for 8/8
14:52:56 <V453000> you can make both 8/8 and 4/4 with it visually properly
14:53:06 <V453000> problem is that it fucks up curve speed limits completely
14:53:54 <Wolf01> I think I'll make only 2 sets of wagons: 7/8 and 11/8
14:54:43 <Wolf01> And all the engines 9/8 even if it isn't prime
14:56:07 <Wolf01> So you can only have 1 tile train at best: 9+7, or 2 tiles one with double head 9+7+7+9
14:56:59 <Wolf01> And I'll do it with voxels
14:57:13 <Wolf01> So I can piss off even more people
14:58:55 <V453000> I don't think I understand perfectly :0
14:59:00 <V453000> so how do you make 3 tile train?
14:59:25 <Wolf01> 3 engines and 3 wagons
14:59:48 <Wolf01> Why should I make a 3 tile train?
14:59:49 <V453000> is that mandatory or can the player build 9 + 7+7+7+7+7+7...
15:00:23 <V453000> yeah but that's 44 total
15:00:37 <Wolf01> Don't confuse me with andythenorth, I don't need fitting trains
15:01:09 <V453000> do you have any good reason to do this? :D
15:01:15 <V453000> or just "fuck the rules" ? XD
15:01:43 <V453000> not a very good concept, but good luck
15:10:13 <V453000> just breaking the tile consistency for no benefit doesn't sound reasonable to me
15:10:23 <V453000> if there is some clear advantage, it's considerable at least
15:15:24 <andythenorth> it has the benefit of trolling andythenorth
15:16:00 <V453000> if that makes andythenorth produce more pixels I'm all for it
15:16:13 <andythenorth> I haz nearly fixed all problems ever
15:19:45 <Wolf01> Meh, if only there was a way to copy the ottd palette automagically...
15:20:25 <Wolf01> I still need to put it in line
15:21:03 <daenerys> Hey everyone and everything (the robots).
15:22:59 <V453000> you mean all colours in a line?
15:23:20 <V453000> because 2 dimensional array is too high tech and you need 1D? :D
15:23:28 <V453000> or is that another fuck andythenorth thing?
15:23:49 <V453000> well you can generate this thing with python easy? :P
15:23:50 <Wolf01> I can only load that thing
15:24:02 <Wolf01> I first need to learn python
15:26:17 <V453000> or you know, making that line thing in gimp is a matter of a few minutes
15:27:13 <andythenorth> might as well do it in python
15:27:38 <V453000> well yeah but if you need to do it once...
15:31:19 <V453000> andythenorth: I'm going to generate the fuck out of NML with python with my train set
15:31:23 <V453000> it's happening right after trees
15:31:36 <V453000> there, it's been said
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15:33:55 <andythenorth> V453000: you’ll want a templating language
15:33:58 <andythenorth> don’t invent your own
15:34:17 <V453000> but don't you generate stuff with firs and stuff?
15:34:31 <V453000> oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
15:34:40 <andythenorth> there are other choices
15:34:52 <andythenorth> python has Template built in, but it can’t do loops and shit
15:35:00 <andythenorth> although Eddi probably can make it do that with trees
15:35:14 <andythenorth> recursive lamdbas :P
15:35:35 <V453000> the fact alone that I have no idea what you are talking about isn't very reassuring :D
15:35:42 <andythenorth> you used CPP shit?
15:36:07 <andythenorth> NUTS is all written out by hand?
15:36:18 <andythenorth> that’s for peasants
15:36:19 <V453000> was 100k lines at one point
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15:36:34 <V453000> and with my next train set I want serious switch insanity, doing it by hand would be utter retardation
15:37:16 <V453000> that's something I imagined
15:38:56 <V453000> this might be a lot more complicated than I imagined
15:39:08 <peter1138> Damn, deliveroo don't deliver here :(
15:39:12 <V453000> still intrigued to give it a try though
15:39:22 <V453000> will probably be hard but good practice
15:40:20 <andythenorth> peter1138: it’s probably worth moving house to get deliveroo
15:40:44 <andythenorth> V453000: I wrote even a tutorial for basic templating
15:41:15 <V453000> where can I find it? :D
15:41:26 <andythenorth> bit blah blah words
15:41:29 <andythenorth> words and more words
15:42:33 <V453000> oh yeah I am pretty sure I saw that page at some point :D
15:43:41 <peter1138> andythenorth, they deliver to my house. I'm at work though.
15:43:53 <andythenorth> reason to work at home
15:46:58 <peter1138> If I worked at home I could just pop round to the big Tesco :p
15:52:57 <andythenorth> ‘Box Car’, ‘Big Box Car’
15:53:09 <V453000> Ultimately Big Box Car
15:53:19 <V453000> I dont see a problem andy
15:53:30 <andythenorth> is this ‘short buy menu’ fetish
15:53:39 <andythenorth> but Road Hog has shitload of trucks and trams
15:53:54 <andythenorth> long buy menu, all looks good = winning
15:54:02 <andythenorth> short buy menu, looks shit = losing
15:54:11 <V453000> logics is strong today
15:54:25 <andythenorth> should write a book
15:54:26 <V453000> wait when you witness my ultimate train set purchase menu
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15:54:44 * andythenorth looking at UKRS 2 with all extras turned on
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16:24:04 * andythenorth adds NUTS to game
16:25:39 <andythenorth> V453000: too many wagons in NUTS
16:25:43 <andythenorth> buy menu totally spammed
16:26:41 <V453000> is why ULTIMATE TRAIN SET
16:27:05 <V453000> NUTS Ultimate Train Set
16:27:21 <V453000> duplicite recursive acronyms
16:32:26 <Wolf01> Mmmh, I don't think I can paint the voxel faces of different colour :(
16:33:52 <V453000> oh, some obscure voxel editor
16:33:55 <V453000> not master race 3D :P
16:35:53 <Wolf01> Ok, my editor doesn't generate a texture
16:36:42 <V453000> probably just incompatible with the 11/8
16:47:21 <Wolf01> Wait, there is a new update wich also support selections \o/
16:49:19 <Wolf01> I use this for the models of my game
16:49:53 <V453000> how big is 1 voxel in translation to openttd?
16:50:54 <Wolf01> Dunno, 1px I think, in my game 1 voxel is Vector3(1,1,1)
16:52:33 <V453000> quite intrigued how is that going to translate
16:52:48 <V453000> isometric voxel isn't exactly a square :P
16:53:48 <Wolf01> I can set the isometric camera and the angle and render with that
16:54:38 <V453000> well yeah but the only angle in which a voxel is a square is a side/top/etc view :P
17:35:58 <peter1138> "A free lightweight 8-bit voxel editor"
17:36:05 <Wolf01> The one with tanks where I'm stuck
17:36:09 <peter1138> So only 256 colours?
17:36:24 <peter1138> That'll be 8bpp then.
17:38:14 <peter1138> There's a load of people who call low resolution graphics "8 bit" :S
17:38:39 <peter1138> And it winds me up. We were there man!
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19:05:39 <peter1138> Hmm, I've been invited to someone's holiday slide show...
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19:27:01 <supermop> very few people selling braun amplifiers will ship them to the US
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20:35:39 <V453000> the trees don't seem to be doing themselves
20:36:29 <frosch123> i had the impressions some of the hugging ones tried to reproduce
20:36:50 <V453000> yeah but they just produced growth stages not new species
20:37:14 <V453000> I was playing diablo for the last 20 minutes and they produced literally zero new trees
20:41:16 <Wolf01> Did you see my voxel-lego engines?
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20:42:07 <V453000> the one on the right is dark as fuck
20:42:15 <V453000> the one on the left lacks contrast
20:42:23 <V453000> only thoughts I have for now, but I guess it is work in progress
20:42:26 <Wolf01> I wanted to do it brown, but was darker
20:42:56 <Wolf01> Yes it's WIP, I'll add some other engines and wagons
20:44:09 <andythenorth> in a grf with speed limits
20:44:16 <andythenorth> engines that haul freight and pax are a PITA
20:44:25 <andythenorth> they bridge two linkgraphs
20:45:49 <V453000> self imposed problems :P
20:46:21 <Eddi|zuHause> andy seems masochistic enough to enjoy those
20:46:46 <andythenorth> I guess I just need MOAR
20:47:45 <andythenorth> creating a tiny set is easy
20:47:52 <Wolf01> Also not sure the freight engine should have 4 bogeys
20:47:54 <andythenorth> ‘one super awesome train at all times'
20:48:02 <andythenorth> creating a big set is easy
20:48:20 <andythenorth> ‘bazillions of trains, with arbitrary useless stats variations'
20:48:42 <Eddi|zuHause> you mean like the 2ccset?
20:48:55 <andythenorth> creating a set where there’s one-and-only-one train for each common use case....
20:49:46 <andythenorth> also trying to go from 1870 to 2020 in fewest possible generations
20:49:58 <V453000> might not necessarily be a good thing
20:50:06 <V453000> getting new engines often is nice
20:50:17 <andythenorth> I do them every 30 years or so
20:50:25 <V453000> 10 generations of nuts is a good amount but having 20 wouldn't hurt either
20:50:31 <V453000> 30 years is like 8 hours of game time?
20:50:35 <andythenorth> 1870, 1900, 1930, 1960, 1990, 2020
20:50:47 <andythenorth> is 6.5 hours or so
20:51:10 <andythenorth> shitload of hours, or trains? o_O
20:53:00 <V453000> when did you play the game for 8 hours last time?
20:53:27 <V453000> for servers it's ok since you often log off and see it later
20:53:35 <andythenorth> I usually play the change across one generation of vehicles
20:53:43 <V453000> but for nonstop playing I will even have a parameter for "fast game" where all engines come out in a span of a few hours
20:53:47 <andythenorth> most I get to is 70 years or so
20:54:11 <V453000> so you can customize the grf for BB or other goal servers etc
20:54:19 <andythenorth> so eh, trying to 6 generations of engines, with only 3 generations of wagons
20:54:25 <andythenorth> and also speed limits bollocks
20:55:39 <V453000> speaking of which, is there a way to parametrize release dates of vehicles?
20:55:54 <V453000> as in have a parameter int of range 1950-2000 so the user can choose when a specific vehicle is released?
20:56:09 <V453000> other than if parameter == 1951 then item{ release_date = 1951}
20:56:30 <V453000> or do I just need to do thise 50 times with each of the possible values?
20:56:43 <V453000> I mean I will just do it with each of them, it just feels slightly unelegant
20:56:52 <V453000> I'll have about 12 engines so it's no big deal
20:57:00 <frosch123> you can use grf parameters in properties just fine
20:57:08 <frosch123> you just cannot disable the randomisation
20:57:16 <V453000> randomisation I am aware of
20:57:22 <V453000> so I can just put it into the date directly?
20:57:30 <frosch123> but "date(1900,0,0)+365*parameter" is just fine
20:57:52 <frosch123> putting it into the "date"... no idea :)
20:58:07 <frosch123> depends on whether nml tries to do the leap year stuff for parameters, or whether it just calls you stupid to try
20:58:26 <V453000> introduction_date: date(1945, 1, 1)+365*intro_date_vehicle1;
20:58:58 <V453000> this set will wreck shit, I sez
20:59:13 <frosch123> you can also divide some interval between two parameters
20:59:45 <V453000> divide interval between two parameters? which two parameters?
21:00:21 <frosch123> like you set param_year_first_engine, param_year_last_engine
21:00:28 <frosch123> and then define all vehicle dates based on those
21:01:01 <V453000> OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
21:01:10 <V453000> holy shit that would be even better
21:02:02 <frosch123> you can also use the difference of those two parameters to adjust model life
21:02:23 <V453000> right, that's less important but can be useful
21:02:43 <andythenorth> V453000: you doing daylength-in-newgrf? o_O
21:03:44 <V453000> you can put it that way yes
21:03:57 <V453000> it's just for universal convenience
21:04:50 <frosch123> param_steam_era, param_diesel_era, param_electric_era, param_maglev_era, param_slug_era
21:05:05 <V453000> nah will be just param_start and param_finish :)
21:05:38 <Wolf01> Could I compose an engine from 3 parts?
21:06:22 <andythenorth> what’s wrong with a large buy menu?
21:07:10 <V453000> the fact that it's large :) nothing else
21:07:25 <V453000> railtypes are actually super helpful with this, you can effectively split it
21:07:35 <V453000> so you always see just a selection
21:07:49 <V453000> rail, mono, mglv, slugrail, catrail
21:08:31 <Eddi|zuHause> you clearly forgot wetrail
21:09:16 <V453000> don't want to make NUTS2 :) yet
21:10:41 <andythenorth> meh, ultimately V453000 is right :(
21:11:11 <andythenorth> the problem with big train sets is mostly that foamers only draw the engines
21:11:24 <andythenorth> so 900 almost-identical engines, and unfinished range of wagons
21:11:39 <andythenorth> then they have to introduce fake ‘balancing’ reasons to choose one engine instead of another
21:12:16 <frosch123> are you talking about one-wagon-to-rule-them-all-V ?
21:12:19 <V453000> I never thought about it as a disparity between wagons and engines, but yeah
21:12:27 <andythenorth> frosch123: exactly
21:12:37 <V453000> but I don't think any of the sets are making any balancing reasons
21:12:44 <V453000> they just ignore gameplay
21:12:48 <andythenorth> V453000 has same goal as me: almost unique wagons per cargo
21:12:57 <andythenorth> but has a more nuclear route to achieve it :P
21:13:10 <V453000> V453000 has one goal in taht direction, ALWAYS unique wagons per cargo
21:13:55 <V453000> now I'm going to even make a better maintainable system for asses who add 666 obscure cargoes with each industry set release
21:14:59 <frosch123> well, without firs i would have never learned about cassava
21:15:16 <V453000> yeah and how does it look in NUTS
21:15:20 <frosch123> they kind of make it interesting :)
21:15:35 <V453000> I like them frosch123
21:15:43 <V453000> but the system of NUTS makes it a total pain to add more cargoes
21:15:54 <V453000> not necessarily because of some system flaw, but because it's simply a shitload of work
21:16:04 <V453000> needs something smart to make it maintainable
21:17:45 <frosch123> <insert obligatory xkcd>
21:17:49 <V453000> for example I want to make extensive use of index recolours for same shape cargoes
21:17:49 <Eddi|zuHause> tbh, i never really bought into the minimalistic 10cc approach
21:18:00 <andythenorth> it was an over-shoot
21:18:02 <V453000> which means adding new colours for hotfix FIRS cargoes will be just a few lines of code
21:18:36 <andythenorth> pikka minimal set, became pineapple
21:18:50 <Eddi|zuHause> in CETS i tried to resolve the "duplicate engines with near-identical stats" by putting them into different companies
21:18:57 <V453000> just arbitrary bollocks
21:19:05 <andythenorth> I just don’t have engines with near identical stats
21:19:41 <andythenorth> I’m still playing ‘my favourite childhood train'
21:19:51 <andythenorth> but I just dibble the stats
21:20:32 <V453000> just define a bunch of classes and make some progressing models inside them
21:20:35 <Eddi|zuHause> that would still make lots of duplicates, but i also tried to sort them into categories of local pax/long distant pax/light freight/fast freight/heavy freight
21:20:37 <V453000> easiest way to do it right
21:20:42 <V453000> and you can add hybrids after
21:21:00 <Eddi|zuHause> and then have enough reasons to leave out further duplicates
21:21:22 <andythenorth> I have ‘small + fast’, ‘freight’, ‘heavy freight’, ‘pax’ ‘electric powerful but low TE’
21:21:26 <V453000> I can say that balancing them in a way so that each of the classes is actually perfectly viable is not a short process and requires a lot of testing and observation of people playing
21:21:53 <andythenorth> so I will end up with 666 wagons, one per cargo
21:22:00 <andythenorth> V will have one wagon
21:22:10 <V453000> how does electric powerful compare to freight or heavy freight?
21:22:16 <V453000> V will have several wagons actually
21:22:22 <V453000> but they will be kind of the same
21:22:43 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know what electric powerful is
21:22:49 <andythenorth> too much realism
21:23:01 <andythenorth> same HP as heavy freight, as fast as fastest pax
21:23:11 <andythenorth> it’s nearly ultimate, if you’re prepared to build wires
21:23:14 <Eddi|zuHause> but usually there are duplicates in electric/non-electric
21:23:56 <andythenorth> yeah, duplicates across railtypes seems acceptable
21:24:06 <V453000> you mean ready to press C and drag over whole map? :P
21:25:22 <Eddi|zuHause> there are electric hybrids that are both strong and fast, but usually freight is limited by wagon speed
21:26:10 <Eddi|zuHause> there's really no other reason to distinguish freight and pax
21:26:26 <andythenorth> it’s just an arbitrary bit of realism
21:26:38 <andythenorth> and low-speed freight messes up your high-speed networks
21:26:56 <V453000> even nuts has that part of realism :P
21:27:03 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, but you need some kind of challenge :p
21:27:25 <V453000> it's just nice to see civilized trains in towns and industrial trains in freight lines
21:27:57 <V453000> seems inconsistent style with boxcar though
21:28:05 <frosch123> civilized trains in towns? and barbarian trains for freight?
21:28:34 <V453000> yeah frosch123, slugs everywhere
21:28:35 <frosch123> sounds like the attillery rain will instead feature a big battle axe :p
21:30:19 <andythenorth> so if I add one more generation pax coaches?
21:30:26 <andythenorth> will be 4 total, kittens all dead?
21:31:45 <V453000> if I was doing that I'd go apeshit on colour shades Wolf01
21:31:56 <V453000> basically trying to almost never have 2 same neighbouring colours
21:32:06 <V453000> you can, it's just puzzle
21:32:25 <V453000> andythenorth: catpocalypse
21:32:48 <V453000> I'll have 1 wagon generation, they'll just automatically adjust to the leading engine
21:32:54 <V453000> modern leading engine, modern wagons
21:33:18 <V453000> aye aye sir, fecal sick is
21:34:14 <andythenorth> has to be 1 or 666
21:34:17 <andythenorth> no other valid choices
21:34:43 <V453000> well having 1 cargo for 1 wagon is a nice move for new players who aren't aware of refit button
21:34:54 <andythenorth> 64 cargos in FIRS currently
21:35:02 <V453000> but making a batshit insane train set which exploits game mechanics through the roof doesn't need to worry about that I guess
21:35:11 <andythenorth> also need big + small versions of each
21:35:51 <andythenorth> no I add more cargos to FIRS
21:36:12 <andythenorth> @calc 65 * 5 * 2
21:36:48 <andythenorth> unique wagon per cargo
21:36:52 <andythenorth> also 1 universal wagon type
21:37:17 <andythenorth> no more refit bollocks, just scroll lots, build needed wagon
21:37:17 <V453000> full retard mode confirmed
21:37:25 <V453000> well you can filter it :P
21:37:33 <andythenorth> refit buggy anyway
21:37:40 <andythenorth> has weird subtypes feature
21:37:46 <V453000> oh wait user who isn't aware of refit button isn't aware of a filter button either :P
21:37:56 <V453000> subtypes are cool for colour refit
21:38:09 <V453000> for rainbow-powered networks
21:38:16 <V453000> critically important obviously
21:39:06 <V453000> good that I started with temperate and end with toyland because my trees are getting more and more fucked up in the head
21:39:10 <andythenorth> dunno why they were called subtypes ever
21:39:18 <V453000> colours = liveries in my world
21:39:26 <andythenorth> nuff authors think that subtypes are actually called liveries
21:39:31 <V453000> well you can refit to steel planks or steel pipes
21:39:44 <andythenorth> that’s just texture map :P
21:39:53 <andythenorth> IS NOT REAL CARGO
21:40:21 <andythenorth> pixels are for life, not just christmas
21:40:31 <V453000> also selecting goods refit to beer is the most important feature of db set
21:42:59 <andythenorth> lacks consistent schema
21:43:48 <V453000> picture has cows, 10/10
21:44:02 <frosch123> andythenorth: i always liked randomised wagons
21:44:09 <andythenorth> yetis are hiding though V453000
21:44:24 <andythenorth> frosch123: random on build? Or building alternatives yourself?
21:44:42 <andythenorth> is random lengths a stupid idea?
21:44:59 <frosch123> i just mean random color
21:45:10 <frosch123> only minimal shape changes
21:45:36 <frosch123> no random tanker vs flat car :p
21:45:38 <andythenorth> I just flip 2cc and 1cc over
21:45:56 <andythenorth> then player can 'disable' random by setting both colours same
21:46:23 <V453000> random wagon graphics are the top feature to make a nice looking train set in my opinion
21:46:28 <V453000> nothing makes that much impact
22:02:34 <andythenorth> shoebox tiny engine can do 110 mph
22:02:38 <andythenorth> is almost realism also
22:09:02 <frosch123> randomised railtype?
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22:23:10 <supermop> andythenorth: if 6 wide how would lego dudes fit inside
22:23:14 <V453000> this with some attempt at shading could be really nice
22:23:29 <andythenorth> supermop: you have to have the right windowas
22:23:43 <Wolf01> Maybe I could make them 7-wide, so I could draw a thin divider on the front window
22:24:16 <supermop> what track do they run on?
22:25:49 <supermop> what is the gauge in bumps?
22:26:01 <Wolf01> Or I can make them 15-wide and render as 7-wide so I can add more detail everywhere
22:26:40 <supermop> extra zoom whereby granularity increases?
22:28:17 <Wolf01> Or I can do them with some 3d design software directly
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