IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-08-21
⏴ go to previous day
00:12:17 *** Biolunar has joined #openttd
00:53:10 <Eddi|zuHause> guru3: i think TTD added some more songs, and some of the existing ones might have been reworked. not sure
00:54:05 <Eddi|zuHause> guru3: also, how the music soundes heavily depended on your sound card
00:59:47 *** supermop has joined #openttd
01:05:03 *** tycoondemon has joined #openttd
02:10:22 *** Hiddenfunstuff has quit IRC
02:29:30 *** NGC3982 has joined #openttd
02:41:40 *** NGC3982 has joined #openttd
02:45:07 *** supermop has joined #openttd
03:37:31 *** luxtram has joined #openttd
03:43:34 *** orudge` has joined #openttd
03:43:35 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge`
04:04:13 *** chomwitt has joined #openttd
05:09:25 *** chomwitt has joined #openttd
06:11:34 *** orudge` has joined #openttd
06:11:34 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge`
06:25:57 *** supermop_home has joined #openttd
06:33:37 *** supermop_home_ has joined #openttd
06:58:14 *** supermop_home_ has quit IRC
07:03:28 *** supermop has joined #openttd
07:03:47 *** mindlesstux has joined #openttd
07:18:38 *** supermop_home has joined #openttd
07:33:50 *** supermop_home has joined #openttd
07:54:34 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
08:03:39 *** supermop has joined #openttd
08:18:31 *** supermop has joined #openttd
08:21:33 *** Celestar1 has joined #openttd
08:55:55 *** cosmobird has joined #openttd
09:18:18 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd
09:33:13 *** supermop has joined #openttd
09:34:43 *** orudge` has joined #openttd
09:34:43 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge`
09:41:33 *** gelignite has joined #openttd
09:48:39 <LordAro> although it would just be a case of changing the if statement as sirkoz did
09:52:02 *** supermop has joined #openttd
09:57:06 <andythenorth> what are ‘Cities’ in OpenTTD?
09:57:14 * andythenorth should probably look in wiki eh
09:58:43 <andythenorth> that shouldn’t exist :P
10:00:07 *** Hiddenfunstuff has joined #openttd
10:01:52 <Wolf01> So 6601 and 6602 are actually related? We should specify that with the "related tasks" feature instead of comments
10:02:01 <andythenorth> I couldn’t see it
10:02:22 <Wolf01> It's the next tab near comments
10:02:37 <andythenorth> ok that’s useful
10:02:44 <andythenorth> looks disabled :P
10:02:48 <andythenorth> we need a new theme
10:03:09 <Wolf01> Yes, FS1.0 has a nicer UI
10:03:18 *** supermop_home has joined #openttd
10:09:08 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd
10:15:14 <Wolf01> andythenorth: did you see last line of yesterday's log? :P
10:19:41 <Wolf01> Speed build contest, 4th place because we didn't cheat :P
10:33:38 *** supermop_home has joined #openttd
10:46:34 *** cosmobird_ has joined #openttd
10:48:45 *** supermop has joined #openttd
10:53:59 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
11:03:22 *** supermop_home has joined #openttd
11:10:14 <_dp_> city proportion setting in somewhat useful actually
11:10:21 <_dp_> unlike many other settings :p
11:11:44 <_dp_> or, tbh I should say that's one of not so many settings that actually varies across our servers :)
11:12:31 <_dp_> coz some stuff like smooth economy obviously doesn't :p
11:13:08 <andythenorth> yeah it’s probably legit
11:13:16 * andythenorth thinks it should be in script layer, but eh
11:14:39 <_dp_> imo none of the stuff that configures something that's embedded in game should be in any kind of layer
11:14:52 <_dp_> mb is some advanced config but not netwgrfs, gs, etc
11:14:57 *** mescalito has joined #openttd
11:15:27 <_dp_> basecosts, industry chances, towngen settings, etc., etc., etc.
11:15:47 <_dp_> industry chances for standard industry set ofc
11:15:50 <V453000> andythenorth: ever used the argparser? For some reason my bool parameters work weirdly - if the default is True, then it is always true and if I use parameter it won't change that ... if the default is False, and I use for example - x True, it works correctly. But when I use -x False, it will also make it True, like if the bool is just checking if there's anything in the parameter. Any idea wtf? :D
11:16:09 <V453000> also I am searching for a name for the script
11:16:12 *** Hiddenfunstuff has quit IRC
11:16:22 <V453000> RGB DESTROYER or RGB DOZER are candidates
11:17:26 <_dp_> V453000, iirc it's controlled by action='store_true/false'
11:18:26 <andythenorth> V453000: seems I just use sys.argv
11:18:36 <andythenorth> which is a bit limited and flakey IMO
11:19:05 <V453000> _dp_: need to research something about that, feels like I read something similar earlier
11:19:23 <_dp_> V453000, try action='store_true' instead of type=bool
11:19:28 *** Hiddenfunstuff has joined #openttd
11:19:49 <_dp_> and required ofc makes no sense
11:20:52 <_dp_> V453000, though it works without argument, like if there is -x it's true, if no it's false
11:21:07 <V453000> that's alright :) trying
11:23:06 * _dp_ was fixing some argparse for my work half an hour ago
11:25:58 <V453000> seems to work, thank you :)
11:26:12 <V453000> now I need to figure out if I actually want the "defaults" to be false XD
11:29:29 <andythenorth> _dp_: if ‘city’ wasn’t a flag in game, but controlled by town growth script, that would be…better :D
11:30:56 <_dp_> andythenorth, no, coz instead of changing it in config to configure server you'll have to write a script
11:31:12 <andythenorth> someone else will do that for you….right? o_O
11:31:21 <andythenorth> "let a thousand flower bloom”
11:31:59 <_dp_> andythenorth, no one usually does :p
11:32:30 <andythenorth> I live in a world where industry and cargos are totally under my control
11:32:42 <_dp_> andythenorth, but anyway, imo it's a very bad idea to move settings for core logic to scripts
11:32:51 <andythenorth> I was thinking of the logic too
11:33:03 <andythenorth> why does the game need to distinguish town/city?
11:33:10 <_dp_> andythenorth, I would understand if script controlled the whole town placement, then, yes, it should have it's own settings
11:33:11 <andythenorth> why not move growth out of core completely? o_O
11:33:26 <_dp_> andythenorth, but for core game town generator settings should be also in core game
11:33:26 <andythenorth> completely moddable, within limits of API
11:33:36 *** supermop_home_ has joined #openttd
11:33:45 <andythenorth> pragmatically you’re probably right
11:33:47 <_dp_> andythenorth, cities grow twice as fast
11:34:00 <andythenorth> on a JFDI model, yeah, it’s better to have a setting
11:34:36 <_dp_> andythenorth, like cb servers usually only allow players to claim towns and have cities neutral
11:35:22 <_dp_> andythenorth, have a nice side-effect that you can easily tell one from other
11:35:43 <_dp_> andythenorth, well, that may be patch actually, don't remember xD
11:40:30 <_dp_> andythenorth, btw if you move everything out of core then default game will be extremely dull
11:40:46 <_dp_> andythenorth, you still need some town geration script enabled by default
11:40:47 <andythenorth> depends what it ships with
11:40:58 <andythenorth> it will also be _really_ easy to mod, or use for patchpacks
11:41:05 <andythenorth> reduced combinatorial shit
11:41:10 <andythenorth> except…when the mods conflict :P
11:41:24 <V453000> I guess the parameter defaults then make no sense for the ones which do the store_true or store_false, right?
11:41:39 *** supermop_home_ has quit IRC
11:41:43 <andythenorth> game has _4_ kinds of Oil Wells industry
11:41:46 <andythenorth> kind of a clue :)
11:41:56 * andythenorth also tried all the industry grfs in one game before :P
11:42:32 <V453000> changes applied, tyvm
11:45:05 <_dp_> andythenorth, well, if logic ships with game and is configurable from config it makes no difference how is it implemented, in script or in core
11:45:21 <andythenorth> it does to those writing mods :)
11:45:42 <_dp_> andythenorth, it's just that atm there aren't many mods shipped with the game ;)
11:46:02 <andythenorth> well there’s openttd.grf :P
11:46:22 <_dp_> andythenorth, yeah, that's why I didn't say "no mods" :)
11:48:36 *** supermop_home has joined #openttd
11:48:48 <_dp_> would be nice to have at least basecost in bundle btw
11:49:33 <_dp_> and manual industries, even though it's technically a custom industry set
11:49:48 <_dp_> newgrf configuration is a mess though
11:51:36 *** Celestar has joined #openttd
11:52:03 <andythenorth> _dp_: for a short time, there were some nice MP goal games played, mostly with me and core devs
11:52:23 <andythenorth> when GS like NCG and Silicon Valley came out
11:52:36 <andythenorth> nice 1 or 2 hour games in an evening
11:52:52 <andythenorth> takes 45 mins - 1 hour to configure the fricking game :P
11:53:07 <andythenorth> and 1 wrong setting borks the goal
11:53:45 <_dp_> andythenorth, yep, takes forever to properly configure a server
11:54:29 <_dp_> andythenorth, have same issue with events too, little testing -> big chance something will go wrong
11:55:26 <andythenorth> playing MP goals is probably most fun I’ve had playing OpenTTD
11:55:34 <andythenorth> caused me to see new playing styles too
12:17:21 <_dp_> "Every extension proposal should be required to be accompanied by a kidney. People would submit only serious proposals, and nobody would submit more than two."
12:17:32 <_dp_> looks like nice solution to fs problem :p
12:18:07 *** supermop has joined #openttd
12:18:08 <_dp_> but then again, it was said by member of c++ standartization committee in early 90s...
12:18:58 <SpComb> that sounds like an appropriate approach for adding new things to C++
12:31:44 *** orudge` has joined #openttd
12:31:44 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge`
12:35:22 *** supermop has joined #openttd
12:48:35 *** supermop_home_ has joined #openttd
13:02:50 *** supermop_home_ has quit IRC
13:05:34 *** supermop has joined #openttd
13:05:47 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd
13:18:35 *** supermop has joined #openttd
13:37:58 *** supermop has joined #openttd
13:45:01 <andythenorth> makes groups suck less
13:46:25 <LordAro> but does it make them great again?
13:55:08 <V453000> that is actually really missing fo the groups
13:55:19 <V453000> to the point where it's even rather hard that it's actually a subgroup I feel
14:08:18 *** Stimrol has joined #openttd
14:10:04 <andythenorth> V453000: can haz words?
14:10:34 *** Stimrol has joined #openttd
14:11:03 <andythenorth> +/-1 to foldable groups?
14:11:47 <V453000> I would definitely say +1 if it's not a giant pain in the ass to code. To me it's what makes the feature of sub-groups explained and complete. Currently it's nice but missing this.
14:13:38 <andythenorth> yeah, currently is crippled
14:18:32 *** supermop_home has joined #openttd
14:23:47 <_dp_> can we switch to toml for config file?
14:23:59 <Wolf01> I think at least 75% of my development time is to try to fix linker errors
14:35:20 <andythenorth> is toml what mercurial uses?
14:36:00 <_dp_> andythenorth, dunno, but rust uses it for sure
14:36:16 <_dp_> andythenorth, it's also quite ini-like
14:37:24 <Eddi|zuHause> so can you explain the differences in 3 sentences?
14:38:10 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, can in one
14:38:15 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, it's more expressive
14:38:53 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, things like GS configuration could be made into a tables instead of those hacky string-map-things
14:39:30 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, also all nested tables could be separated like yapf* or npf* but that no big issue
14:39:53 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: grf config is kind of a mess, currently
14:40:12 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, also it has proper lists instead of again string-like-comma-separated hacks
14:41:13 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, grf config is a huge mess coz it's a list not even map/dictionary/table, idk if there are parameter names in newgrfs but if so they could be easily expressed with toml tables
14:41:27 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, and if not then, again, at least there are proper lists
14:43:59 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: main problem with grfs is that they could be identified through filename, grf-id or grf-id+md5
14:44:31 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, well, config format makes no difference to that
14:46:15 <Wolf01> I need some help for the correct order of headers, I'm moving the SwitchToMode to another file and no matter if I put some functions declarations it uses in the openttd.h, as extern or what, I always get unresolved external
14:48:27 *** supermop_home_ has joined #openttd
14:48:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: external symbols are never in header files, only references to symbols. there must be one .cpp file which contains the actual symbol
14:49:25 <Wolf01> Yes, they are on openttd.cpp as static functions, but if I move them too I could easily leave all into openttd.cpp because it would mean to move everything
14:50:03 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: if you're making a new .cpp file, make sure you add it to source.list and regenerate the project files
14:51:13 <Eddi|zuHause> did you close and reopen the project?
14:51:51 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: linker errors are almost definitely unrelated to .h order
14:52:10 <Wolf01> I think is because they are static
14:52:25 <Wolf01> And I fell on the same pit trap
14:53:22 <Eddi|zuHause> uhm, yes, "static" means "don't create a linker symbol"
14:53:53 <Eddi|zuHause> if you want the linker to find it, you must remove static
14:55:19 <__ln__> greetings from the land widely considered a part of germany
14:55:59 <Eddi|zuHause> you're widely exaggerating the value of "widely"
14:58:58 <Wolf01> Ok, removing static worked
15:16:19 <Wolf01> Now I need to ponder the best way of doing the GameState object
15:16:45 <Wolf01> Seem that the singleton way + global variable was not well accepted
15:17:19 *** supermop_home_ has quit IRC
15:23:29 *** supermop_home has joined #openttd
15:28:14 <supermop_> but then i stayed up late last night making a ton of switches for trolley poles and pantographs
15:30:35 <supermop_> now i want to add more switches to choose between trolley poles and old fashioned pantographs and bow collectors
15:31:52 <Wolf01> supermop_: pics or didn't happen
15:31:58 <supermop_> melbourne went straight from poles to modern pantographs in the 80s
15:32:27 <supermop_> but in eastern europe pictures suggest they had pantographs from the 20s or so
15:33:30 <supermop_> Wolf01: let me put grf onto my work computer
15:33:44 *** orudge` has joined #openttd
15:33:44 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge`
15:38:49 *** supermop has joined #openttd
15:41:06 <andythenorth> all this OpenTTD admin eh
15:41:12 * andythenorth ducking FIRS 3 sprites
15:41:24 <supermop_> now im tempted to draw more pantos
15:43:45 <Wolf01> Just called my ISP, which for sure will state that it's a problem of mine and I must pay for fix
15:50:05 *** supermop has joined #openttd
15:53:29 *** supermop_home has joined #openttd
16:01:08 *** Alberth has joined #openttd
16:01:09 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
16:03:09 <supermop_> what to call the little heqs style trains?
16:03:36 <supermop_> they aren't exactly a tram
16:04:28 <supermop_> calling them a minimum gauge train suggests that the trams are also like 600mm or 1'
16:04:54 <supermop_> 'industrial train' just sounds like any freight train
16:05:22 <Alberth> to me that's a industry-owned train driving around at its site
16:05:39 <supermop_> yeah thats like part of the industry
16:05:50 <supermop_> not a player built vehicle
16:08:40 *** supermop_home has joined #openttd
16:09:19 <Alberth> just give it a nice name of itself, rather than an indication on what kind of train it is
16:11:48 <supermop_> its for the parameter string
16:17:02 <andythenorth> supermop_: I call them industrial railways
16:17:06 <andythenorth> but that might be a UK thing
16:17:20 <andythenorth> I was going to add them to Road Hog, once we decide if NRT is dead or not
16:23:16 <supermop_> well i'll keep making things for nrt
16:23:26 <andythenorth> if I implement them I’m going to ignore the gauge
16:23:30 <andythenorth> it’s not relevant
16:23:36 <andythenorth> the main thing is...
16:23:42 <andythenorth> well I’ll post a screenshot actually
16:23:45 <supermop_> they whole sidewalks etc thing is nice to have, not critical for nrt to work
16:25:36 <andythenorth> HEQS Renewal Set :P
16:26:10 <andythenorth> that is kind of the original image for HEQS trams, Dan sent it to me years ago
16:26:39 <andythenorth> the main thing is that they are long mini-micro trains, with all wagons looking same
16:26:46 <andythenorth> so they are like little worms going around
16:27:36 <FLHerne> What we Really Need are proper little tracks that can be built on half a tile each
16:27:43 <FLHerne> Complete with signalling and things
16:28:13 <Wolf01> ISP called back "here all works fine"
16:28:42 <supermop_> FLHerne: well even full size rails are narrower than a two-lane street with sidewalks
16:28:58 <andythenorth> What We Really Need
16:29:02 <andythenorth> FLHerne: zoome out :P
16:29:23 <supermop_> its the old, "make everything but tracks bigger"
16:29:35 <supermop_> which would probably be fine
16:29:44 <supermop_> have to build roads one lane at a time
16:29:54 <andythenorth> I hate all that shit :P
16:30:09 <andythenorth> hate is way too strong a word
16:30:17 <andythenorth> it strongly disinterests me :P
16:30:48 <supermop_> andythenorth: i wouldn't hate it, its just out of scope
16:31:22 <FLHerne> Scale in OTTD is annoying
16:31:24 <supermop_> 'make a new, different game' not usually in the scope of 'make the first game'
16:31:40 <supermop_> sometimes i guess it is though
16:31:42 <FLHerne> If I let my cities grow to a sensible scale relative to the railways
16:31:56 <FLHerne> So they can have a proper suburban network and things
16:31:56 <andythenorth> also airports is a horribly proven source of drama and fail
16:32:10 <FLHerne> They take up all the map space and everything looks too crowded
16:32:12 <supermop_> andythenorth: not saying it should go in trunk, but it was fun to watch
16:32:26 <supermop_> much like whoever's shunting patch years ago
16:33:10 <supermop_> at scale ORD is probably bigger than a 64x64 map
16:36:56 <andythenorth> Alberth: fancy reviewing a UI patch? o_O
16:37:00 <LordAro> andythenorth: i'm happy to go through juanjo's stuff and work out what needs doing
16:37:18 <andythenorth> he has found some…odd stuff…to fix :)
16:37:32 <andythenorth> seems quite persistent, not always obvious what the motivation is :)
16:37:45 <supermop_> what's remaining dealbreaker on NRT?
16:37:57 <supermop_> should i keep working on this set?
16:38:06 <andythenorth> supermop_: waiting for peter1138 to declare us insane and just commit what’s done?
16:38:16 <andythenorth> we’re stuck with the last 20%
16:38:37 <andythenorth> me and frosch have talked ourselves out onto a ledge about ground types
16:38:49 <andythenorth> $somebody made loads of cobbled roads and stuff
16:38:57 <andythenorth> which are all identical apart from texture
16:39:27 <supermop_> i mean myself or andrew350 can make more sprites
16:39:56 <supermop_> i missed the intention behind groundtypes
16:40:08 <supermop_> is it purely for eyecandy?
16:40:35 <supermop_> surely the easiest way would be to just move the sidewalks to the roadtype
16:40:54 <supermop_> as is, road beats tram on a tile, which might not be perfect but works
16:41:03 <andythenorth> it’s predicated on not consuming labels if all your changing is cobble/brick/asphalt/stone/wood
16:41:19 <andythenorth> it’s a waste of labels, could be done differently
16:41:25 <andythenorth> but that means new spec, new UI
16:41:41 <supermop_> i can drive very different speeds on those surfaces
16:41:54 <supermop_> why do they need to be the same label?
16:42:07 <andythenorth> do you actually set different properties for them?
16:42:31 <andythenorth> if so, it might be we’re staring down a dead end with groundtypes
16:42:43 <supermop_> in unspooled dirt is slower that gravel, which is slower than stone, which is slower than asphalt
16:43:03 <andythenorth> dunno if frosch and I realised that
16:43:07 <supermop_> dirt is cheapest, followed by gravel, followed by asphalt, followed by stone
16:43:29 <supermop_> infrastructure cost is more or less same order
16:43:31 <Wolf01> andythenorth: just put speed limit in groundtype
16:44:04 <andythenorth> Wolf01: at some point that makes groundtype a roadtype :P
16:44:06 <Wolf01> Or define a switch on roadtype with groundtype
16:44:11 <andythenorth> then we’ve resolved it back to ‘same as now'
16:44:32 <andythenorth> supermop_: what about Docklands?
16:44:34 <Alberth> too overpowered wrt money printing
16:44:36 <supermop_> i mean currently i can lay a 140kmh tram track over a 40 kmh dirt road, and that is weird
16:44:44 <supermop_> but not necessarily wrong
16:44:55 <Alberth> hmm, you spoke much more :)
16:45:24 <supermop_> andythenorth: docklands has all same costs and speeds for the moment
16:45:40 <supermop_> because i hadn't bothered to think of different ones
16:45:57 <andythenorth> I think it was Docklands that spawned groundtypes idea
16:46:16 <supermop_> docklands is an eycandy hack though
16:46:38 <supermop_> i don't know that it has any gameplay meaning
16:47:38 <supermop_> yes it uses too many lables,
16:48:00 <supermop_> maybe there is a way around that, but not sure id base all of NRT around one grf
16:52:18 <supermop_> Alberth: what is overpowered?
16:53:13 <supermop_> anyway NRT lets us have pretty sprites for roads and trams, which i feel is about 80% functional now
16:53:29 *** supermop_home_ has joined #openttd
16:53:47 <supermop_> and gameplay differentiation which i think is about 90%
16:54:37 <supermop_> for pretty sprites, we miss some more control over certain sprites by roadtype, like sidewalks, furniture, and foundations
16:55:19 <supermop_> for gameplay, we miss a more graceful means of upgrading roads, and the means for towns to build more than one type
16:55:45 <Alberth> airports are overpowered, topic 25 minutes ago
16:56:14 <Wolf01> supermop_: Both gameplay missing features shouldn't be a problem
16:56:22 <supermop_> correct me if i am wrong, but i feel like you could either ship it without those, or add them in some smaller incremental way without a 'ground type'
16:56:33 <Wolf01> It's just a matter to actually code them
16:56:51 <crem> Are there cablecar patches for openttd?
16:57:22 <supermop_> even if a few means of abuse arise (upgrade a town's roads to fast highway but dont have to pay to maintain it)
16:57:34 <Eddi|zuHause> there used to be a ski-lift grf (non-functional object)
16:57:46 <supermop_> which you can already do by building bus stops over town roads
16:57:58 <andythenorth> Conveyor Belts!!!
16:58:03 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd
16:58:03 <andythenorth> take a lesson from F :P
16:58:13 <Alberth> clearly we need a skilift for cargo transport in the mountain
16:58:18 <andythenorth> “pipelines are against the spirit of OpentTTD"
16:58:28 <andythenorth> said devs who now all play F :P
16:58:33 <supermop_> belts, gondolas, etc can be added in NRT, but its not ideal
16:58:38 <andythenorth> that’s actually FUD but eh :)
16:59:12 <Wolf01> Wait, you don't play it?
16:59:26 <supermop_> Wolf01: can they be added to NRT as is?
16:59:34 <supermop_> rather than reworking NRT?
17:00:28 <Wolf01> If you want something like the existing track-pipelines but without the hassle of having signals, yes, they could be added and maybe work even better
17:00:35 <supermop_> andythenorth: i don't feel the need to have one type for bench, one type for lamps, one type for hot dog stands, on sidewalks
17:00:53 <Wolf01> You can put 2500 vehicle-pump on them and have a continuous flux
17:00:58 <andythenorth> that would be something more akin to objects supermop_
17:01:10 <supermop_> Wolf01: i meant road conversion, not pipelines
17:01:10 <andythenorth> being able to have random road greeble would be nice, similar to stations
17:01:25 <andythenorth> parked cars and crap like that
17:01:27 <supermop_> andythenorth: you can almost do that already
17:01:46 <supermop_> you can randomly have stuff on the road or catenary already
17:02:03 <Wolf01> Oh, yes, conversion could be reworked, maybe it could benefit from some new grf flags, but it's just a matter to know what could be upgraded to what
17:02:51 <supermop_> if you and one more sprite layer for sidewalks, you just randomly place street furniture
17:03:10 <supermop_> i dont need the control to choose which bench goes on what tile
17:03:17 <andythenorth> PLAYERS WILL THOUGH
17:03:31 <supermop_> then let them add 10 types
17:03:32 <andythenorth> how else can they make accurate model railways?
17:03:46 <andythenorth> need is a strong word
17:04:18 <supermop_> i guess i am saying that NRT is pretty close to meeting or exceeding goals already
17:05:35 *** supermop_home_ has quit IRC
17:06:27 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd
17:06:27 <Wolf01> And I seem too stupid to fix it
17:07:30 <Wolf01> Actually I'm working on refactoring, 3 hours of work could have been saved by asking a stupid question in channel
17:07:39 <andythenorth> 441 FS issues left
17:08:07 <Wolf01> Good, at 0 we'll release OTTD2?
17:08:23 <andythenorth> probably at about 100 we release OTTD 2
17:09:21 *** supermop has joined #openttd
17:09:35 <Wolf01> New release by only closing tasks, without codechange
17:10:22 <Alberth> lots of text in that issue :)
17:10:44 <Alberth> 5887 is also nice, newgrf author makes a mess, we can clean it up?
17:12:49 <andythenorth> tbh, random building irritates me in CHIPs
17:12:52 <andythenorth> when I want specific
17:12:56 <andythenorth> and sometimes I just want random
17:13:03 <andythenorth> rock | hard place
17:13:41 <andythenorth> the station spec is such a mess that I wouldn’t touch that change
17:13:44 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: and the changelog will feature all the rejected patches?
17:13:55 <andythenorth> doubt 5887 is a current goal
17:14:09 <andythenorth> Rejected: #FS [bad patch]
17:14:19 <andythenorth> shows the work done
17:15:20 <Alberth> I only use station tiles in chips, I don't care much for the random cranes :p
17:15:56 <Alberth> so likely I don't understand this decorative tile business at all
17:18:04 <FLHerne> Alberth: Even with those, it can be annoying if you get the little trucks in 1890 or whatever
17:18:12 <FLHerne> (which happens all the damn time)
17:19:16 <andythenorth> I would refactor chips if station nfo wasn’t so bad
17:19:35 <andythenorth> I would rather have deterministic building with a hotkey or toggle for ‘choose a random one'
17:19:53 <Alberth> from what quast wrote about stations, it didn't seem very complicated, imho
17:22:02 <Alberth> FLHerne: colour of cargo isn't even consistent, trucks are minor compared to that :p
17:23:26 <andythenorth> if I bothered to read station spec, I could probably provide a suggestion :P
17:23:35 <andythenorth> but eh, there are real actual patches in the queue :D
17:23:47 * andythenorth finds making wishlists a lot easier
17:24:20 <Alberth> openttd 2.0 speculation is much simpler indeed :p
17:25:23 <andythenorth> NRT, templated consists, upgraded scenario editor, reworked landscape gen, done
17:37:08 <planetmaker> If so, the question would be how much backward compatibility one would want :)
17:37:53 <planetmaker> Likely such road is the netscape way, though
17:38:00 <Wolf01> Backward compatible gameplay wise or just able to load and upgrade old saves?
17:38:26 <Wolf01> Because the first one is already borked
17:38:40 <Wolf01> The second one might have some holes
17:38:47 *** supermop_home has joined #openttd
17:39:06 <planetmaker> Wolf01, it would probably suffice to be able to somewhat continue old games
17:39:27 <planetmaker> but... with the presence of NewGRFs that probably cannot be done either. Thus incompatible
17:39:29 <Wolf01> Then, we are already doing great, with some edge cases
17:40:04 <Wolf01> I can continue a 2007 game
17:40:26 <planetmaker> you can continue TTD games
17:41:19 <Wolf01> The only problem might happen in case of some weird configurations, maybe even trying to load a TTDP game
17:41:52 <andythenorth> I have literally sunk a company with “rewrite from scratch”
17:41:58 <andythenorth> nearly went bankrupt
17:42:13 <andythenorth> the correct method is “rebuild the plane whilst flying the plane”
17:42:35 <andythenorth> and I think we’re stuck with backwards compatibility
17:42:41 <eekee> *nod* rewriting is often stupid
17:43:13 <andythenorth> “backwards compatibility” isn’t self defining though
17:43:36 <andythenorth> (picking my pet favourite pony, don’t shoot it)
17:43:46 <andythenorth> if we, e.g. moved signals to NotSignals, with types
17:43:55 <andythenorth> we could delete semaphores from default game
17:43:59 <andythenorth> and migrate all saves to colour light
17:44:23 <andythenorth> it’s different :P
17:44:54 <eekee> i'm thinking "i'm sure some people would be furious" :)
17:47:03 <andythenorth> migrate semaphores to a different signal label
17:47:12 <andythenorth> then it can be restored by a newgrf
17:47:30 <andythenorth> actually, in that case probably just keep the semaphores, but let me replace all signals :P
17:48:18 <eekee> i'm thoroughly enjoying firs, but i'm thinking the ports must be served by invisible giant airships. is there a patch to make them visible? ;)
17:49:55 <andythenorth> you could write one
17:50:09 <andythenorth> probably wormholes
17:50:48 *** TheMask96 has joined #openttd
17:50:49 <eekee> actually can grfs make new disasters? i'm thinking of the submarines which aren't really a disaster.
17:50:58 <Wolf01> andythenorth: make an alien beam dropping stuff on ports at random intervals
17:51:27 <andythenorth> removing <br /> from old html
17:51:35 <eekee> sure no probs, i'm mostly joking
17:53:42 <supermop_> ive spent almost an hour shifting trolley pole around
17:53:48 *** supermop_home has joined #openttd
18:01:48 <supermop_> whats this with signals?
18:08:34 *** supermop has joined #openttd
18:16:23 *** Progman has joined #openttd
18:23:54 *** supermop_home has joined #openttd
18:36:01 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd
18:42:44 <peter1138> what's wrong with <br /> ?
18:42:54 <peter1138> apart from privatisation
18:45:08 * andythenorth shouldn’t be using it for layout
18:45:12 <andythenorth> except in poetry
18:46:04 <andythenorth> I’m using it to avoid people whining at me about inline styles for margin
18:46:21 <andythenorth> just 112 left to replace :P
18:54:07 *** supermop has joined #openttd
18:56:40 <andythenorth> was PBS a mistake? o_O
18:56:51 * andythenorth can’t remember if all the pre-signals crap was actually fun or not
18:57:11 <andythenorth> seemed to involve a lot of thinking, maybe that was good
18:58:03 <Wolf01> I would allow SPAD signals too, just to see some random train crash
19:08:46 *** supermop has joined #openttd
19:09:16 <Wolf01> Would be useful to have specific methods to do this? _switch_mode = (_game_mode == GM_EDITOR) ? SM_LOAD_SCENARIO : SM_LOAD_GAME;
19:14:23 <Alberth> looks state-machine-ish
19:15:02 <Alberth> not sure if it becomes any better then, coding state machines in a programming language isn't much readable
19:19:43 <LordAro> srs, who's in control of ottdc.org? they really need to get rid of that startcom cert
19:23:44 *** supermop has joined #openttd
19:31:15 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd
19:35:33 <Wolf01> Mmmh, I'm tempted to rename the GetX/SetX methods to just X() to emulate properties
19:38:28 *** supermop has joined #openttd
19:40:02 *** gelignite has joined #openttd
19:45:48 *** luxtram has joined #openttd
19:53:29 *** supermop_home has joined #openttd
19:53:57 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
20:00:30 <frosch123> LordAro: spike is admin
20:00:54 <frosch123> should we go for self-signed certificates?
20:01:06 <LordAro> letsencrypt is fine these days
20:01:09 <frosch123> make the ottd certificate authority?
20:01:13 <LordAro> i think wildcard certs are coming soon as well
20:01:24 * andythenorth uses letsencrypt
20:01:53 <andythenorth> there are 1 or 2 quirks, but basically sound
20:05:37 * andythenorth stares at bug list, looking for some to invalidate :)
20:08:00 <frosch123> any butterflys or dragonflys?
20:08:49 <andythenorth> default password vs. actual password?
20:08:54 * andythenorth could look in src :P
20:09:46 <frosch123> andythenorth: the client remembers the password
20:10:01 <frosch123> the server does not store it
20:10:15 <andythenorth> isn’t that….correct by design? o_O
20:10:22 <frosch123> so when people need to restart their server/reload the game, all companies have no password
20:11:06 <andythenorth> so we have to hash all the paswords? o_O
20:11:16 <frosch123> the lame excuse that often appears on the forums is, that savegames are transfered to clients, so they may not contain passwords
20:11:31 <frosch123> but the truth is that savegames also do not include the ai/gs data
20:11:42 <andythenorth> because transferring the passwords over the network is also really secure? :P
20:11:46 <frosch123> so there is already differentiation between savegame for save and savegame for join
20:12:08 <andythenorth> still valid then? Can’t just close?
20:12:09 <frosch123> the remaining reason would people who achieve their savegames on some hall of fame site :)
20:12:33 <andythenorth> even hashed, if we start sharing around passwords, pretty easy to go password mining
20:12:37 <andythenorth> if anybody could be bothered
20:13:18 <frosch123> it's the usual: if someone would actually spent some real thought on the problem, it could likely be solved
20:13:57 <andythenorth> I’m not trying to close all feature requests :)
20:14:45 <frosch123> oh my... yt is covered with eclipse livestreams
20:15:11 <frosch123> maybe i should stream a fake one
20:15:50 <andythenorth> need planetmaker
20:17:13 <andythenorth> peter1138: “Or limit ships to just below 80mph?”
20:17:17 <andythenorth> would seem fine to me
20:20:50 <eekee> how am i going to make my ekranoplan grf if ships are limited to just below 80mph?
20:22:55 *** supermop has joined #openttd
20:23:45 *** supermop_home has joined #openttd
20:27:02 <peter1138> andythenorth, the patch to make ships faster worked, iirc
20:27:12 <andythenorth> want me to test it?
20:27:13 <peter1138> it was just... pointless :p
20:27:43 <andythenorth> means a docs update :P
20:27:49 <peter1138> instant stopping was a problem
20:27:59 <peter1138> that's even worse for ships
20:28:11 <peter1138> there's plenty of patches for that, mind you
20:30:49 <andythenorth> this patch appears to work
20:42:04 <Eddi|zuHause> <frosch123> the lame excuse that often appears on the forums is, that savegames are transfered to clients, so they may not contain passwords <-- that's actually easy to solve, the password data in the savegame needs to be encrypted with a (server-side) password
20:42:54 <Eddi|zuHause> while at it, also hash and salt the passwords :p
20:43:02 <frosch123> that's already done
20:43:25 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, that's "new" :p
20:43:49 <frosch123> and no, password should just not be part of the savegame, but in some separate file like .openttd/secret.dmp
20:44:22 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, people who load the savegame without that server password will be able to play it, but the password data is discarded
20:44:41 <andythenorth> I wish george would join irc :P
20:44:47 <andythenorth> I dm-ed him about some of his issues
20:44:53 <frosch123> well, people who played on that game know their password, and then they know the server-side encrypted password
20:45:06 <frosch123> so, they have data on how it is encrypted
20:45:18 <frosch123> so, if you spend work on encryption, do it correctly imho
20:45:42 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: err, if known-plaintext is a problem, you're probably using the wrong encryption method :p
20:47:38 <andythenorth> why _aren’t_ vehicles just built in a virtual depot?
20:47:46 <andythenorth> then we could run all the newgrf callbacks
20:47:53 <andythenorth> for the purchase menu
20:48:12 <frosch123> the idea exists for long :p
20:48:21 <andythenorth> it’s totally unnecessary :P
20:48:23 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: anyway, if you still want to separate it, it should be no problem to make a "filename.sav" and "filenname.secret" file
20:48:35 <andythenorth> complexity for no gain
20:48:56 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: virtual depot is needed for consist stuff
20:49:00 <frosch123> andythenorth: it's actually the solution to all problems with articulated vehicles and refitting
20:49:28 <andythenorth> I’ll leave 6198 open then
20:49:50 <frosch123> but with ottd's "intrusive pools" it's not that easy
20:50:52 <Eddi|zuHause> replace pools with actual modern programming concepts like vectors or something
20:52:19 <frosch123> sure, if you update the compile farm
20:54:05 <frosch123> andythenorth: bug in newgrf :)
20:54:25 <frosch123> i doubt ottd will every check for ships being trapped when placing an object
20:55:05 <andythenorth> it’s probably a dubious industry layout
20:57:15 <andythenorth> NFI how I could fix that :)
20:57:37 <andythenorth> oh the Fishing Grounds station report ‘Oil Rig’ for the info tool :)
21:08:25 <milek7> >and no, password should just not be part of the savegame, but in some separate file like .openttd/secret.dmp
21:08:41 *** supermop_home_ has joined #openttd
21:09:15 <milek7> it even doesn't matter if it will be sent to client
21:09:29 <milek7> as long password are salted with server secret salt
21:13:08 <Alberth> why give an option if there is no need?
21:14:21 <Alberth> Also, why does GroupStatistics::UpdateProfits nothing but ClearProfits ?
21:14:39 <frosch123> it's the baseclass of something?
21:16:08 <Alberth> GroupStatistics::ClearProfits
21:16:20 <Alberth> it zeroes the profits at the end of the year
21:16:37 <Alberth> so it's not update at all
21:16:45 *** supermop_home_ has quit IRC
21:17:16 <Alberth> andythenorth: I do something therein eints, you can specify an alternative name for a command in the tables
21:17:30 <Alberth> not sure what happens there exactly
21:18:10 <Alberth> note that 6543 doesn't say he just the translator
21:20:02 <andythenorth> not sure what to do with that next
21:22:09 <frosch123> Alberth: i guess VehicleReachedProfitAge does everything
21:22:40 <frosch123> Alberth: so, update does 1. clear all, 2 readd all vehicles
21:22:48 <Alberth> andythenorth: title says web translator, so just move it to devzone?
21:23:02 <andythenorth> out of sight, out of mind :)
21:23:13 *** supermop has joined #openttd
21:24:25 <andythenorth> oops, eints project tells me all the eints things I haven’t done
21:25:07 <Alberth> frosch123: functionality got shifted, but the name wasn't changed thus
21:25:27 <frosch123> Alberth: no, it's all correct
21:25:52 <frosch123> it has always been like that, and it's correct imo
21:26:05 <frosch123> the comments are weird though
21:28:19 <frosch123> the comments are misleading :)
21:30:21 *** Progman has joined #openttd
21:38:32 *** supermop_home has joined #openttd
21:39:36 *** luxtram has joined #openttd
21:46:48 *** supermop has joined #openttd
21:48:06 <Eddi|zuHause> or compile option?
21:48:39 <Eddi|zuHause> in any case, needs reproductive case
21:48:43 <andythenorth> mine has had that issue for ~years
21:48:56 <andythenorth> I bought a new mac maybe 6 years ago, and ottd got a lot slower
21:49:15 <andythenorth> yeah, Snow Leopard -> Yosemite probably
21:49:29 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds completely unrelated?
21:50:02 <andythenorth> no, Apple either changed something in Quartz or it was a change in Intel video drivers or hardware
21:50:17 <andythenorth> total guessing mind
21:50:23 <crem> Is there a recommended set of newgrf? For people who never played anything but vanilla openttd.
21:50:32 <andythenorth> avoid anything tagged andythenorth
21:52:48 *** chomwitt has joined #openttd
21:58:09 <V453000> while V453000 is suited for beginners only
21:59:19 <Alberth> crem: depends heavily on what you like to do
21:59:47 <Alberth> andythenorth: 1st group patch looks ok
21:59:58 <Alberth> too late to actually try it
22:02:07 <andythenorth> worked for me, if that’s worth anything
22:02:43 <Alberth> crem: if you want to stay close to what you know, the OpenGFX+ grfs are nice
22:02:53 <Alberth> have a look at the parameters
22:03:31 <Alberth> The OpenGfx+Industries does need the OpenGfx+Trains and RVs, or it will not work
22:04:09 <crem> Yes those dependencies are confusing. And it seems there are two versions of each.
22:04:12 <Alberth> using FIRS and selecting a basic economy is quite new but manageable
22:04:37 <Alberth> crem: industry sets add new cargoes that the default set doesn't know
22:04:43 <crem> In addition to OpenGfx+?
22:05:50 <Alberth> so you always need vehicle sets if you want to play with a non-default industry grf
22:06:48 <crem> There are three FIRSes.. FIRS 2, FIRS Industry replacement set, and FIRS Industry replacement set 3
22:07:11 <Alberth> yep, andy is a busy firs producer
22:07:39 <Alberth> newest is likely best :)
22:08:11 <andythenorth> FIRS 3 is fricking awesome
22:08:17 <andythenorth> and nearly finished :P
22:08:56 * andythenorth wonders if finishing it is a current goal
22:09:07 <Alberth> if you want something different for trains and RVs but quite traditional, try Iron Horse and Road Hog
22:09:23 <andythenorth> I keep going back to NARS 2 also
22:09:24 <Alberth> if you want to do transport mayhem, use NUTS
22:09:57 <andythenorth> when I finally replicate NARS 2 in Iron Horse, I can probably stop doing OpenTTD stuff :)
22:10:08 <crem> wow, at least it started! Milk Production! mooo/ I've never managed to start anything with newgrf before. (didn't know what to pick and picked random stuff).
22:10:43 <Alberth> andythenorth: justload both nars2 and IH ?
22:11:24 <Alberth> nars2 had this changing running costs, doesn't it?
22:11:37 <andythenorth> I think pikka removed those as bad feature maybe
22:12:01 <crem> It surely looks good, will read!
22:12:17 <andythenorth> ‘get started’ page is work in progress
22:12:29 <andythenorth> feedback welcome, especially from people who’ve never newgrfed before
22:12:50 <Alberth> crem: for ships, fish2 is freat
22:13:12 <andythenorth> I would also add AV9 for planes
22:13:16 <andythenorth> maybe a bit much all at once
22:13:23 <andythenorth> but helicopters are useful in FIRS
22:13:28 <Alberth> neverplay with aircraft:)
22:13:35 *** supermop has joined #openttd
22:14:16 <Alberth> Although I think I moved that all important steel on one map, by plane
22:14:57 <crem> yeah planes usually make it boring. But actually with trains profit very quickly starts to be unmanageable. As in.. you don't know how to get rid of all that money.
22:15:26 <Alberth> juststop caring about money, and build what you like
22:15:40 <andythenorth> planes are very handy for the supplies mechanic in FIRS
22:16:00 <crem> Ok, will try. I guess I have enough to start with.
22:16:01 <Alberth> although a lot of fun is in keeping the landscape intact
22:17:02 <Alberth> if you tend to flatten all mountains, I would suggest you stop doing that for a few games
22:17:35 <Alberth> other options are to add lots of water (60%) or so, and do shipping between islands
22:18:06 <crem> Yeah, I did that once. Lots of water, huge map, 1 instance of every industry.
22:19:24 <Alberth> I usually play 512x512 or 1024x512, quite big enough for a single player
22:19:58 <crem> I usually (almost) don't change landscape, but I guess initially I select it to be not very hilly.
22:20:28 <Alberth> hilly makes making a route more difficult
22:20:55 <Alberth> especially if you increase the freight multiplier to 5 or so
22:21:28 <Alberth> probably too much for non-NUTS sets :)
22:23:41 *** supermop_home has joined #openttd
22:25:17 <V453000> interesting, I did some testing on the python multithreading and basically I'm getting 8 times more speed with 16 times more threads ... that's not too bad :)
22:25:36 <V453000> considering all the horrors I heard how python is bad with multithreading
22:26:25 <_dp_> V453000, are you using threads or processes?
22:27:04 <_dp_> threads are only good for io stuff usually
22:31:06 *** FLHerne_ has joined #openttd
22:49:58 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd
22:53:08 *** supermop has joined #openttd
23:07:28 *** supermop has joined #openttd
23:08:47 *** supermop_home has joined #openttd
23:21:09 *** andythenorth has left #openttd
23:56:31 *** supermop has joined #openttd
23:56:45 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 has joined #openttd
23:57:15 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd
continue to next day ⏵
