IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-08-04
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16:12:42 <V453000> my ass is grass and friday
16:12:56 <V453000> sense you seek, sense you find in slugs
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16:22:04 <HeyCitizen> no admins? no commands working? no one to help with trolls/blockers?
16:25:21 <HeyCitizen> so we have a couple of cities on server 1 that have become saturated with stations from the same player
16:25:44 <HeyCitizen> doesnt give a fuuu
16:25:50 <V453000> this is a general openttd channel not for some specific servers :P where are you from? reddit?
16:26:19 <V453000> that would be channel #/r/openttd
16:28:54 <peter1138> but reddit is the front page of the internet, or something
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19:20:37 <Wolf01> Oh, something I could draw!
20:04:16 <Wolf01> V, why no FFF yet? Was your turn heh? :D
20:04:46 <V453000> I'm probably not going to write anything for a while
20:04:52 <V453000> doing small things, not much to tell
20:05:09 <Wolf01> You could talk about slugs
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20:30:05 <Alberth> Wolf01: They added Belgium, but not Holland :p
20:30:30 <Alberth> while we are quite well connected
20:31:15 <Alberth> probably we didn't fit in the message they wanted to give :p
20:46:19 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm surprised germany is even on that list
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21:37:56 * andythenorth back at a real laptop
21:38:19 <andythenorth> phones and tablets really don’t cut it :P
21:40:51 <andythenorth> everything is remarkably better on a proper device
21:52:51 <andythenorth> did anyone finish FIRS 3 while I was away? o_O
21:54:13 <Wolf01> There was a guy, andythe_ or something like it who wanted to do it
21:58:31 <andythenorth> should port-type industries include a dock/heliport tile?
21:59:29 <Wolf01> Like oil rigs but on shores?
22:01:48 <Wolf01> It would be better to have a port included
22:02:05 <andythenorth> I just argued in forums that it would suck :)
22:03:13 <gpsoft> Anybody knows how to analyse crash logs?
22:04:04 <Wolf01> Maybe they could be used to spoil cargo distribution in an infrastructure sharing flavour like oil rigs do
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22:15:37 <supermop_> andythenorth: port would be neat
22:16:17 <supermop_> esp when port builds itself in such a way it is awkward to fit your own dock in without terraforming
22:16:19 <andythenorth> double posts are BAD eh?
22:16:35 * andythenorth just released another FIRS, but last post in FIRS thread is mine :P
22:16:49 <supermop_> i guess the dock might get stuck by terrain sometimes though
22:17:01 <andythenorth> also heliports :P
22:17:35 <supermop_> really heliports could go anywhere i guess
22:19:33 <andythenorth> maybe we need newgrf industry stations :P
22:19:46 <andythenorth> NewDocks would be better :)
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22:20:53 <Wolf01> Also NotWater could be better
22:21:40 <andythenorth> currently we’re NotShipping :)
22:25:56 <Wolf01> Shit, I lost track of the ant, they smell my biscuits :|
22:28:14 <andythenorth> that’s like a haiku
22:28:59 <Wolf01> If the structure is fine, then it would be my first one XD
22:41:01 <supermop_> Wolf01: no one says that after a few thousand years you cannot invent your own new poetry structure
22:41:35 <supermop_> should head to LGA soon, but flight delayed 2.5 hours
22:42:31 <Wolf01> At least you aren't kept in detention like my last time
22:42:37 * andythenorth all done with flying today
22:49:56 <supermop_> wheres that to then
22:50:14 <supermop_> this one will just be LGA to ORD
22:50:40 <supermop_> but summer in the midwest means ORD has delays for thunderstorms almost daily
22:51:24 <andythenorth> flew back from Tenerife
22:57:34 <supermop_> ooh now its been delayed an additional 75 min
23:02:10 <andythenorth> poor branch discipline means Road Hog is a bit fucked :P
23:02:26 <andythenorth> I have fixes and code quality improvements mixed up with NRT stuff
23:03:00 <supermop_> better just get NRT into trunk then
23:06:35 <Wolf01> Mainly fixes and a lot of features
23:06:49 <Wolf01> GameScript integration
23:08:52 <Wolf01> BTW, I love calling stuff stuff, my ex coworker seldom still ask me how to call a new class and I reply "Stuff" without giving him time to write "and don't answer with "Stuff""
23:14:21 * andythenorth tests docklands and unspooled
23:14:43 <supermop_> andythenorth: they are just pixels
23:15:07 * andythenorth wondering wtf to do about NRT spec :)
23:16:10 <supermop_> need level crossing pixels
23:16:32 <andythenorth> wondering if roads should be built like rail stations are built
23:16:42 <andythenorth> choose route/vehicle type
23:16:43 <supermop_> actually i think i drew level crossings, just didn't know how to code them
23:16:47 <andythenorth> then choose sprites
23:16:59 <andythenorth> appearance and routing should be orthogonal
23:17:05 <andythenorth> it’s more steps for building though
23:17:26 <andythenorth> is catenary appearance, or routing?
23:18:13 <andythenorth> supermop_: is docklands serious, or hax? :)
23:18:35 * andythenorth wondering if it would work better as road stops, or if it’s desirable that the tiles aren’t stops
23:18:41 <supermop_> it is seriously something i wanted to see in game for a long time
23:19:06 <supermop_> maybe, if road stops could be large and sprawling like richbk? wanted?
23:19:12 <supermop_> dk if that was who it was
23:20:51 <Wolf01> I sometime give a look at the vehicle movement code, it doesn't seem so difficult, maybe with a proper documentation...
23:21:49 <Wolf01> I may look on making 4 lanes roadstops or such
23:21:49 <andythenorth> road vehicle movement?
23:22:00 * andythenorth has read road vehicle movement code
23:22:23 <andythenorth> any changes to stations, roadstops, airports
23:22:36 <andythenorth> always get stuck on ‘but we need a generic state machine for tiles, in newgrf'
23:22:48 <andythenorth> which is, of course, fricking stupid and unachievable
23:22:55 <andythenorth> in any practical sense
23:23:17 <andythenorth> the number of people who could use such a state machine spec can probably be counted on two hands
23:23:28 <Wolf01> Yes, because you might want to differentiate the movement by vehicle and by the tile graphics too
23:23:37 <andythenorth> and the number of people who could design and implement the spec for it can be counted on no fingers or thumbs
23:24:04 <andythenorth> it’s not always winning to do it in newgrf
23:24:15 <andythenorth> hard-coding additional airports in ottd was a great move
23:24:39 <andythenorth> the gameplay cost of that was very low, compared to theoretical idea of having arbitrary airports
23:24:42 <andythenorth> most of which would suck
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23:26:41 * andythenorth wonders if NRT should offer control over ‘sidewalks’
23:26:51 <andythenorth> but eh, they’re drawn behind the road layer
23:27:07 <andythenorth> basically an eye candy option, independent of the label
23:27:40 <Wolf01> There are sidewalk features like poles, trees
23:27:41 <andythenorth> same, I think as frosch is proposing with groundtypes, except I’m unclear exactly what groundtypes proposal is as yet
23:27:49 <supermop_> andythenorth: the number of people who can or will use any new spec or feature for openttd can probably be counted on two hands
23:28:13 <supermop_> i can count the number of people using NRT spec on one hand with fingers to spare
23:28:56 <andythenorth> I used all fingers & thumbs trivially
23:29:08 <andythenorth> not even counting people who’ve rage quit
23:29:31 <andythenorth> I think there are 20 or 30 people creating credible work, and releasing
23:30:46 <supermop_> one day i will join them to make it 21
23:30:58 <andythenorth> basically if roads grew an eye candy option, then authors could add all the extra crap like parking lots, trees, fountains,
23:31:15 <Wolf01> You can already use objects for that
23:31:32 <andythenorth> yeah, but these would be in the 8px or so at the edge of the road
23:31:55 <andythenorth> concrete median (dividers)
23:32:31 <andythenorth> Wolf01: if you do figure out vehicle code, can you add a switch for ‘drift mode’?
23:32:38 * andythenorth has been watching Ken Block videos again
23:32:56 <andythenorth> drift is quite easy to simulate, I’ve done it in flash games
23:33:13 <andythenorth> but ideally the rotation point is moved towards the vehicle front
23:34:05 <andythenorth> how many bits are left in the map then?
23:34:42 <andythenorth> and what’s the idea about making tram and road both provided by same grf?
23:34:52 <andythenorth> what is spec for that?
23:35:10 <supermop_> seems like there is no need to enforcethat
23:35:15 <Wolf01> It might be difficult in cities
23:35:38 <supermop_> ok im going to try to go to the airport now
23:36:00 <supermop_> expect NRT to be in stable when i get back
23:36:50 <andythenorth> objects waste a lot of tiles Wolf01 ;)
23:37:09 <andythenorth> have you tried the docklands grf?
23:37:39 <andythenorth> did he fork it from NRT? o_O
23:37:56 <Wolf01> <andythenorth> have you tried the docklands grf? <- yes, it's nice, finally got rid of the fake roads made with the non-track tiles stations
23:38:19 <andythenorth> I think it’s docklands that most shows weakness of curent spec
23:38:40 <andythenorth> all types there are equivalent, it’s just eye candy
23:39:01 <Wolf01> That's the reason behind groundtypes
23:39:27 <Wolf01> And the same reason behind my suggestion to make NRT types dynamic
23:40:45 <Wolf01> The only downside is that you have unified labels then, you can't make a HAUL road and a HAUL tramway
23:40:58 <andythenorth> we need a UI mockup for groundtypes
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23:41:15 <andythenorth> it’s something like objects, but more compact
23:42:15 <andythenorth> I don’t think it’s significant whether labels are unique or unified
23:42:38 <andythenorth> either is fine, it should be chosen to fit other more important constraints
23:43:13 <andythenorth> what’s the benefit of unifying?
23:44:33 <Wolf01> Both kind of vehicles see the same list
23:45:28 <Wolf01> Maybe you can even check if there's a tramway catenary from a trolleybus
23:46:10 <Wolf01> Just query the tile types and OR the properties
23:46:26 <Wolf01> If one of the two has catenary, then win
23:46:34 <andythenorth> any other benefits? o_O
23:47:00 <Wolf01> But I think we can already do that now, just change some stuff
23:47:24 <Wolf01> Like cycle the types instead of getting the vehicle roadtype
23:47:48 <Wolf01> I don't think there are many benefits
23:49:20 <andythenorth> the catenary thing seems to be an outsized problem :P
23:49:41 <Wolf01> BTW, the data structure will stay the same, is only the array in which are loaded the gfrs to change
23:50:14 <Wolf01> Yes, it's just the "CompatibleRoadType()" to change
23:50:18 <andythenorth> what’s the current set up, one catenary?
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23:50:35 <Wolf01> Yes, road catenary wins
23:50:36 <andythenorth> no, the spec says both types can define catenary
23:50:56 <Wolf01> But only road's one will be drawn, if present
23:51:23 <andythenorth> spec page mentions that
23:51:34 <andythenorth> maybe just draw both :P
23:52:04 <andythenorth> or leave it as is and [shrug]
23:52:45 <andythenorth> I guess the problem remains knowing if trams have a valid route or not
23:53:43 <Wolf01> The game knows already what to do, the user has a hard way to tell if the route is valid
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23:54:14 <andythenorth> and in 8bpp, drawing both catenaries will always be hard
23:55:37 <andythenorth> hmm, well there will be a simplification somewhere
23:55:43 * andythenorth will sleep on it
23:56:36 <andythenorth> I considered overlapping
23:56:46 <andythenorth> but that doesn’t solve the player routing knowledge :)
23:56:55 <Wolf01> But back in time I made the transparent catenary options, so...
23:57:22 <andythenorth> it comes down to either
23:57:30 <andythenorth> (1) distinct graphics or visual cue
23:57:58 <andythenorth> or (2) a specific ‘needs catenary on tile’ flag for vehicles
23:58:33 <andythenorth> requiring catenary limits potential for newgrf hax for weird stuff
23:59:02 <andythenorth> and means vehicle author has to duplicate information (tramtype label and flag)
23:59:18 <andythenorth> or having labels for electrified types is pointless
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