IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-07-14
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17:13:11 <frosch123> is that a unicode codepoint?
17:26:55 <Alberth> it"s bau" shifted one key to start with "h", but it fails on making "hoi"
17:34:08 <Eddi|zuHause> you know wolves don't actually "woof"
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17:39:25 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: juvenile wolf puppies do sometimes
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19:54:05 <Wolf01> An usual reply to that question between my friends is "disgust", but it's because "what to do" and "what we are" it's the same in italian :P
19:54:28 <andythenorth> we are what we do eh?
19:56:53 <andythenorth> fricking FIRS :)
19:57:08 <andythenorth> takes 80% of the effort
19:57:39 <andythenorth> ‘overlapping cargo payment curves’ :P
19:58:01 <Wolf01> Lucky, usually is last 10% takes 90% effort
20:02:19 <andythenorth> I just have 3 industries to draw
20:02:23 <andythenorth> a few bugs to fix
20:02:31 <andythenorth> and a complete rework of all economies :P
20:12:08 <Eddi|zuHause> it's the 90-90 rule
20:12:19 <Eddi|zuHause> the first 90% of the work takes 90% of the time
20:12:28 <Eddi|zuHause> and the other 10% of the work take the other 90% of the time
20:13:27 <frosch123> there are also some fancy 90-10 rules :p
20:13:52 <frosch123> use 10% of your time to solve 90% of the problems
20:14:05 <Wolf01> I follow the 10% rule, do 10% of the work in 10% of the time and stop
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20:16:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i like that rule, i followed that through to the point where i reduced it by 1% every year
20:16:15 <Eddi|zuHause> and after 10 years i did basically 0 work
20:17:56 <frosch123> get 90% of the money for 10% of the work
20:27:39 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i also did that. i went back to 10% of the work, but upped the money from 10% to 90% :p
20:29:55 <andythenorth> should I render the payment curve in docs?
20:29:59 <andythenorth> with pil or something?
20:30:20 <andythenorth> can I automate payment curves? :P
20:31:11 <frosch123> if you add up the time of every ottd player since they last looked at the payment curves, will you get more than the age of the universe?
20:38:23 <Eddi|zuHause> does that algorithm terminate?
20:38:53 <andythenorth> BUT PAYMENT CURVES ARE VERY SERIOUS
20:39:08 <andythenorth> THERE ARE MANY FINE THREADS ABOUT THEM
20:39:47 <Alberth> point to them instead :p
20:40:15 <andythenorth> mostly I just need to prevent 1:1 overlap
20:40:24 <andythenorth> which happens due to copy-paste of the cargo definitions
20:44:01 <frosch123> then fill them with random numbers
20:44:37 <frosch123> or use the industry id :p
20:47:47 <Wolf01> Mmmh, the simyoulater post on NRT...
20:51:23 <andythenorth> you just finished reading it? o_O
20:51:28 <andythenorth> did it take several days?
20:55:58 <DorpsGek> __ln__: glx was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 1 day, 21 hours, 22 minutes, and 51 seconds ago: <glx> ievan for me
20:56:30 <Wolf01> <andythenorth> did it take several days? <- yes
20:58:10 <Wolf01> I think he is just trying to tell us to plan carefully the feature to not change it later
20:58:42 <Eddi|zuHause> he does realize he's talking to andy?
21:01:02 <andythenorth> because somehow I am God of NRT
21:01:37 <andythenorth> I found the post quite interesting
21:01:59 <andythenorth> somehow it both groks significant issues, whilst also missing them
21:05:54 <andythenorth> do we have different number of railtypes for i386 and x64?
21:05:58 * andythenorth didn’t know that
21:06:15 <andythenorth> the map has different bits available for different architectures?
21:06:18 <andythenorth> that is fricking insane
21:08:19 <Eddi|zuHause> that's probably gone through a fractal of half-knowledge
21:08:29 <frosch123> yes, that's why i386 and x64 always desync when playing together :p
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21:09:41 <frosch123> andythenorth: the only issue that we have with i386 support is that we do not support bigger sprite caches than 2gb
21:10:15 <Eddi|zuHause> that's discrimination!
21:10:24 <Eddi|zuHause> check your privileges!
21:10:37 <frosch123> i bought a bigger graphics card only for factorio
21:10:44 <frosch123> i.e. only because of V
21:10:55 <frosch123> i hope he gets a share from the manufacturer
21:14:46 <Wolf01> I'm still thinking about changing catenary to a flag (for railtypes too)
21:15:18 <andythenorth> that’s how this all started :P
21:15:27 <andythenorth> Wolf01: I just can’t face the barrage of shit
21:15:54 <andythenorth> catenary SIMPLY MUST be able to distinguish 25KV AC, 1500V DC, etc
21:16:00 <andythenorth> AND WHAT ABOUT THIRD RAIL!!!!!
21:16:04 <frosch123> i wondered about splitting of the ground+sideways, which may include catenary
21:16:34 <frosch123> i.e. catenary would be on the level of lamps and parking lots
21:16:42 <Wolf01> Also 4 railtypes with the same exact graphic with only different speed limit...
21:17:14 <andythenorth> if I add catenary to a tile, is it available for both road and tram?
21:17:38 <frosch123> but when moving to sideways, it would
21:17:57 <andythenorth> so does that transform the type?
21:18:36 <Wolf01> We could do a facade style thing, the problem will be on the grf side
21:18:54 <frosch123> no idea, does building track change the sidewalks?
21:19:47 <Wolf01> Grfs should provide both with and without catenary, if both versions are present, the one with catenary is masked and you have a button to convert it to electrified
21:20:57 <Wolf01> If only electrified is present then there is no "remove catenary" button, and same happens for when the grf defines only standard type
21:21:05 <Wolf01> This is all about UI work
21:21:29 <Wolf01> But still limits the number of roadtypes
21:21:48 <Wolf01> You see 8 and instead you have 15 of them
21:22:48 <Wolf01> The user doesn't have to choose between 15 types which are really 8
21:23:24 <andythenorth> can I electrify maglev?
21:23:44 <Wolf01> If it defines the catenary feature, why not?
21:24:35 <andythenorth> can I electrify ELRD?
21:24:56 <Wolf01> ELRD should not exist, is ROAD+catenary
21:25:02 <Eddi|zuHause> electrified wetrail
21:26:59 <Wolf01> The best thing to do instead is to have just the *types you need, place infrastructures like catenary and speed limits
21:27:02 <andythenorth> Wolf01: want to patch? :P
21:27:28 <Eddi|zuHause> remove roadtypes, make speedlimit signs
21:27:43 <Wolf01> The problems is where to find enough bits
21:27:58 <Eddi|zuHause> but haven't we already discussed a separate "with catenary" flag?
21:28:09 <Wolf01> Catenary should have number of *types in tile * types of electrification
21:28:42 <Eddi|zuHause> have a "subnet mask"-style mapping of bits towards roadtypes and catenary types :p
21:28:51 <Wolf01> OR! Just one electrification for all, with a single bit
21:29:25 <andythenorth> that was my preference :P
21:29:34 <andythenorth> fucks about catenary types I don’t give
21:29:43 <Wolf01> And the graphic is composed depending of which *types are present
21:30:03 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: problem with that is that it'll eventually clash with some random newgrf developer's idea about what it should do vs. what you originally intended it to mean
21:30:20 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that’s the case for all the newgrf spec :)
21:30:25 <andythenorth> so it’s 100% true, but for all cases
21:30:29 <andythenorth> so non-significant :)
21:30:44 <Eddi|zuHause> there's different layers to this
21:30:49 <andythenorth> it’s only a matter of which developer, when, and how wrong they are :D
21:31:11 <Eddi|zuHause> it's like saying "whether science is 50% right or 99.9% right is irrelevant, it's still 100% wrong"
21:31:42 <Eddi|zuHause> which is how we ended up with a president trump and a brexit, and ...
21:32:18 <andythenorth> what’s the problem with the current implementation?
21:32:24 <andythenorth> it’s clunky, but it works
21:32:34 <FLHerne> Doesn't the Dutch set already have different catenary sprites by railtype or something?
21:33:12 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: that's a problem, because with roadtypes, you can have two roadtypes with clashing catenary sprites
21:33:26 <Eddi|zuHause> on the same trackbits
21:34:11 <Wolf01> There's sprite composition
21:34:19 <FLHerne> Does notroadtypes also allow newgrfs to set their own sprites?
21:34:47 <Eddi|zuHause> would be weird if it didn't
21:34:51 <frosch123> that's kind of the main point
21:35:19 <andythenorth> isn’t the problem solely that town roads can’t be electrified?
21:35:21 <frosch123> Wolf01: i think if there is a separate ground type to bui,d we can greatly reduce the number of road and tram types
21:35:25 <andythenorth> are there other issues?
21:35:48 <frosch123> taking the current example grfs, we have like 100 ground types, 3 road types, 3 tram types
21:35:59 <Wolf01> frosch123: yes, that could be a good idea
21:36:13 * andythenorth fails to understand :)
21:36:54 <frosch123> andythenorth: sidewalks vs parking lots vs cobble stone vs asphalt does not change the type of vehicles which drive on them
21:36:58 <Wolf01> Grass, dirt, cobbles, pavement, asphalt
21:37:11 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: imagine CHIPS but for roads
21:37:16 <frosch123> yellow lines vs white lines does not either
21:37:25 <andythenorth> so more like building stations
21:37:39 <andythenorth> we have no bits for this though?
21:38:01 <Eddi|zuHause> there's never enough bits, we should remove all bits
21:38:29 <frosch123> andythenorth: i would solve the gameplay issues first before worrying about bits :p
21:38:32 <Wolf01> We should remove stations and place them on a common array
21:39:24 <andythenorth> the problem for me is that NRT just works
21:39:34 <andythenorth> such simple needs for andythenorth
21:39:58 <andythenorth> the compatibility is…tedious
21:40:25 <andythenorth> w.r.t not being able to bridge incompatible types with a 3rd type
21:57:47 <andythenorth> so cobble road is just ROAD and so on?
22:02:32 <frosch123> it's like manual built town zones
22:05:36 <andythenorth> so that moves 80% of types out of the global toolbar, and into a construction toolbar? o_O
22:06:45 <andythenorth> it’s quite appealing
22:06:51 <andythenorth> what problem is solved?
22:07:14 <frosch123> that we do not invent roadtype compatibility for eye candy differences
22:07:47 <frosch123> which likely also removes problems with upgrading existing roads of towns
22:07:51 <andythenorth> ok so what if simyoulater is ~right?
22:07:56 <frosch123> because changing eye candy does not affect routing
22:08:05 <andythenorth> I can’t avoid implementation details, because they always matter
22:08:07 <frosch123> i have not read it :üp
22:08:21 <andythenorth> but what about options to turn on/off sidewalks, catenary etc when constructing
22:08:28 <andythenorth> rather than inherent to the type
22:08:32 <frosch123> that's too explicit
22:08:46 <andythenorth> so something not than that
22:08:52 <frosch123> when you select dirt roads, there is little point in selecting parking lots and sidewalks
22:09:34 <frosch123> when changing ground type of existing roads i am thinking about something like the object gui
22:09:42 <frosch123> i just have no idea how to build new road :p
22:09:46 * andythenorth never uses objects
22:10:06 <andythenorth> where are objects? :P
22:10:23 <frosch123> but just think of them like chips
22:10:47 <andythenorth> looking at GarryG’s fake roads
22:11:17 <andythenorth> lego road plates
22:11:41 <frosch123> including lego tram?
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22:14:15 <andythenorth> is catenary eye candy or no?
22:15:43 <frosch123> i wondered whether the eye-candy level should provide the graphics for the catenary, while road/tram type provide the requirement
22:16:31 <frosch123> which may imply that not all eye-candys allow catenary
22:17:15 <frosch123> anyway, independent of that, we should group road/tram types with/without catenary, so adding catenary upgrades both types
22:17:50 <frosch123> (i think wolf wrote that before)
22:18:52 <andythenorth> I have only played an hour or so with electric RVs
22:19:08 <andythenorth> so I likely didn’t get confused much about routing them on tram catenary
22:19:29 <frosch123> the issue with not being able to visually distinguish road from tram catenary will fall onto someones feet somewhen
22:19:37 <andythenorth> I can imagine the problem
22:19:45 <frosch123> so it makes sense to tie the electrifcation of both to each other
22:22:12 <andythenorth> does that demand that every road type is upgradeable to a different (electrified) label?
22:23:08 <frosch123> but if it is, building electric tram + removing tram will keep the now electrified road
22:23:34 <frosch123> may also depend on whether there are vehicles
22:24:03 <andythenorth> if this wasn’t OpenTTD, I’d propose just a flag on the tile
22:24:21 <andythenorth> which would work fine if it was a game, and not a reality simulator
22:24:24 <frosch123> you are thinking in bits again :p
22:24:46 <andythenorth> there are limited number of dimensions for interesting variety
22:24:59 <andythenorth> the dragon game my kids play has fish and wood, and runes
22:25:06 <andythenorth> not 25 kids of fish
22:25:27 <andythenorth> although there are 2 kinds of runes :P
22:26:33 <frosch123> sounds like rock-paper-scissor
22:26:47 <andythenorth> when designing train sets it’s already hard to provide difference between electric and other types
22:26:51 <frosch123> runes beat wood, wood beats fish, fish beats runes
22:27:10 <andythenorth> depends on what you need most right now
22:27:24 <andythenorth> usually you need fish to feed the dragons to get more wood so you can earn runes
22:27:31 <andythenorth> then the runes get you more fish
22:27:39 <andythenorth> casual gaming :P
22:27:48 <andythenorth> or £48.99 to just get the runes now
22:28:59 <andythenorth> my view is quite distorted probably
22:29:14 <andythenorth> I considered 2 kinds of electric rail in Iron Horse (catenary and 3rd rail)
22:29:21 <andythenorth> but it made no sense
22:29:26 <andythenorth> one type is enough
22:30:18 <andythenorth> newgrf authors make poor spec designers :P
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22:56:17 * andythenorth tries to figure out practicalities
22:56:33 <andythenorth> so I upgrade my tramway to 3rd rail tramway
22:58:58 <andythenorth> ha, problem solved ;)
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