IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-05-29
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00:45:50 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> FIRS has “market_tree_snow = 1793;" <-- that is technically not a constant, but a "parameter"
00:46:18 <Eddi|zuHause> it uses up one of the (limited) parameter slots
00:46:28 <Eddi|zuHause> and is then action6-ed into the properties
00:47:00 <Eddi|zuHause> (some limitations may apply where action6 cannot be used, but i don't know them)
00:47:18 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, this shortcoming of nml is one of the reasons why people use preprocessing
01:10:05 <supermop_home> i don't know how to pre-process yet
01:24:05 <supermop_home> if i can figure out how to composite sprites for cargos I should be able to save a lot of lines
01:24:32 <supermop_home> then I could recolor steel rolls to copper, wood crates to white crates, etc
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02:04:50 <supermop_home> cant find it in the docs tho
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05:06:39 <Vadtec> does anyone know which newgrf changes the behavior of industries closing from "poof they are gone" to "it actually takes some time before they poof"
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09:39:35 <andythenorth> paint is still shiny
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16:41:48 <supermop_home> more paper mills?
16:50:44 <supermop_home> advantage of lots of square footed buildings
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17:06:34 <Alberth> new industry peatlands looks very much under construction :p
17:07:14 <Alberth> same globally brown-ish colour :)
17:08:14 <andythenorth> irl they’re quite…boring
17:08:45 <andythenorth> I might get hit by inspiration some time
17:08:57 <Alberth> I saw the photo, very large, very flat
17:09:13 <andythenorth> the tiles should at least show a difference in front / behind the harvesters
17:09:23 <andythenorth> peat pile in front, bare ground behind
17:11:26 <andythenorth> yes I could draw the bricks
17:11:39 <andythenorth> and channels of water in the ground that drain the mire
17:14:52 <Alberth> looks like a very finite resource, unless you play for a few thousand years :p
17:15:19 <andythenorth> peat caused capitalism
17:17:07 <andythenorth> Dutch people dug the peat, then needed to keep the land drained
17:17:15 <andythenorth> so they bought shares in windmills
17:22:04 <Alberth> hmm, blaming us eh? :p
17:49:23 <supermop_home> now need to give all the new trucks better names
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17:54:35 <V453000> took me 2 years already to make 1 road type
17:54:42 <V453000> how many will it take to make all the new ones? :D
17:55:38 <Alberth> depends on how much you want to change with the current one :)
17:57:36 <Alberth> based on previous experience, I'd say 2 years
17:59:56 <supermop_home> do I need to use random_switch? can I just use switch with random_bits as the thing to test?
18:01:22 <Alberth> there was an important difference between them, not sure what it was, random_bits are more stable iirc
18:01:52 <supermop_home> i don't see a random_switch trigger for 'is built'
18:02:05 <supermop_home> I only want to randomize once, on vehicle purchase
18:03:40 <V453000> I always used random switch, frosch might have added some random bits when he was writing rainbow slugs though
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18:04:41 <Alberth> random_bits does point to random_switch
18:05:45 <supermop_home> bendy busses next
18:06:18 <andythenorth> ach, all the forums action is BR Set
18:06:26 <andythenorth> good luck to it though :)
18:06:41 <supermop_home> go hype up mop generic road vehicles
18:07:10 <andythenorth> sets made by one person get low-traffic threads
18:07:20 <andythenorth> for obvious reasons, compared to a group collaborating
18:07:48 <andythenorth> also it’s impossible to produce much drama posts when working alone
18:08:09 <supermop_home> go shit talk my trucks then
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18:55:14 <Vadtec> when reserving land for later use near a town, is it necessary to purchase *all* the tiles you want to reserve, or can you just purchase the outline of the tiles you want to reserve to keep the town out?
18:56:08 <Alberth> outline seems to work last time I tried
18:56:30 <Alberth> unless you have AI that thinks "eh, free space for my new airport" :p
18:56:46 <Vadtec> heh, true, had that happen once
18:57:09 <Alberth> one bought tile in the middle solves that problem :p
18:58:07 <Alberth> maybe even just near roads is sufficient, but not sure
18:58:14 <Vadtec> i feel like a moron for not having thought of that
18:58:18 <Alberth> I hardly ever play near a city
18:58:35 <Vadtec> i use planes to feed my rail habbit
18:58:57 <Vadtec> few good routes of valuables and i can build whatever rail network i want
18:59:36 <Alberth> I do industries only, mostly
18:59:54 <Alberth> and when sufficiently bored, I may move some goods to the towns
19:00:32 <andythenorth> 15 years, 120,000t per cargo
19:01:02 <Alberth> I might want to try NCG some more, never played much with it, tbh
19:01:19 <andythenorth> it’s fun, but it forces a very linear play-style
19:01:30 <andythenorth> especially in a short game, all choices have to support only the goal
19:01:44 <andythenorth> so nice-looking stations etc are strictly wasting time and money
19:02:12 <andythenorth> if the goal numbers are set well, it also has a frantic late-game stage, manic last 2 years
19:04:11 <andythenorth> it might be interesting to have a variant of NCG with ‘all cargos'
19:04:25 <andythenorth> although ‘more’ is not always better :P
19:19:25 <LordAro> ooh, lots of pretty warnings with gcc7.1
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19:25:37 <Alberth> andythenorth: 5572 is latest? build date suggests it is, but I have firses with higher numbers
19:26:17 <andythenorth> 5626 is my local rev
19:26:29 <andythenorth> dunno what bundles does with version numbers
19:26:48 <andythenorth> that looks like a bug though
19:33:45 <andythenorth> Alberth: that’s interesting, not sure where those come from
19:33:51 <andythenorth> mine matches hg revs
19:34:07 <Alberth> inside it's again 5572
19:34:23 <frosch123> LordAro: some look legit
19:34:31 <andythenorth> I guess I haven’t finished patching the makefile then :P
19:35:13 <frosch123> LordAro: is there a "fallthrough" attribute meanwhile?
19:35:27 <LordAro> /* FALLTHROUGH */ i think is "standard"
19:35:38 <frosch123> i mean something the compiler knows
19:35:43 <LordAro> other than that, there are "actual" attributes, with varying amounts of support
19:35:45 <frosch123> like __attribute__(__fallthrough__)
19:36:18 <frosch123> we should add that to stdafx.h
19:36:39 <LordAro> preferring to use [[fallthrough]], ofc ;)
19:38:24 <frosch123> more #ifdef in stdafx.h
19:38:27 * andythenorth ponders a roadstop spec that could show cargo
19:38:43 <andythenorth> bored of building a train station tile to show waiting cargo at roadstops :)
19:39:13 <frosch123> they added attribute namespaces... oh dear
19:42:30 <Vadtec> -_- thats like the 4th time in about 3 years ive had a stupid industry that ive been servicing for 10+ years close right out from under me...with good raitings and decent production...wtf
19:43:53 <andythenorth> code says that can’t happen
19:44:52 <Vadtec> i just lost a factory that ive been suppling with 300+ grain and livestock close
19:45:30 <Vadtec> lost a coal mine about 10 minutes ago that was supplying 258 coal
19:45:44 <andythenorth> in default game, no industry grfs?
19:45:44 <Vadtec> this game has been weird
19:46:00 <andythenorth> it’s not a patchpack?
19:46:04 <Vadtec> pretty sure its default, lemme check
19:46:19 <glx> same for all primary industries
19:46:31 <Vadtec> nope, no industry grfs
19:46:57 <Vadtec> glx... can disappear even with excellent supply and transport?
19:46:58 <glx> but secondary industries like factory should stay if you provide cargo
19:47:38 <glx> coal is a "finite" ressource :)
19:48:08 <Vadtec> well that was the smallest coal mine ever then
19:48:29 <Vadtec> ive had games where ive had coal mines producing 1000+ for 100+ years
19:48:38 <Vadtec> this one lasted barely 20
19:48:40 <andythenorth> default coal mine cannot close if station rating is > x%
19:49:02 <Vadtec> not sure what the rating was
19:49:06 <andythenorth> eh, actually there might be a case where production multiplier falls enough times on random chance
19:49:21 <Vadtec> it should have had a high rating
19:49:36 <andythenorth> which economy setting?
19:50:02 <andythenorth> (smooth economy on or off?)
19:51:16 <Vadtec> this game has been weird
19:51:39 <Vadtec> it took the cargodist almost a full game year to balance in a new route for goods i added
19:52:34 <Vadtec> i probably need to nuke the game folder and start over, ive been screwing with grfs alot with this version
19:52:53 <andythenorth> have you changed the grfs while the game is running?
19:53:33 <andythenorth> probably fine then
19:55:13 <Vadtec> meh, if it keeps up ill shutdown and nuke the game folder, not like im loosing some huge ass empire or anything lol
20:06:49 <Vadtec> has anyone ever played a game where their trains were 64 tiles long? was it any fun?
20:08:12 <andythenorth> but the novelty wears off fast
20:08:33 <Vadtec> ive gone as long as 12 tiles before
20:08:40 <andythenorth> you need a bunch of very high production industries, mines or so
20:08:53 <Vadtec> i just dont see how you're supposed to keep the raiting up with a 64 tile long train
20:09:45 <Alberth> don't do full load :p
20:09:45 <andythenorth> there’s a grf that adjusts station ratings, for this purpose
20:13:22 <andythenorth> used to be in FIRS, but I deleted it
20:13:33 <andythenorth> so 3iff copied it to a new grf
20:14:54 <Vadtec> omg...lost another oil well
20:15:28 <LordAro> Alberth: interesting, where did you find that? :p
20:16:02 <Alberth> g++ (GCC) 6.3.1 20161221 (Red Hat 6.3.1-1)
20:16:16 <LordAro> wonder why it's disappeared with 7.1.1 then
20:17:51 <Alberth> it's a false positive, so likely fixed
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21:04:17 <Snail> I’m going through your new cargo list, just to have an idea of all the new labels you introduced...
21:04:32 <Snail> but I seem I can’t find the explanation of “vehicle bodies” in the FIRS docs
21:05:01 <Snail> I can see “vehicle parts”, not “vehicle bodies”. I’d like to have an idea before drawing them on my wagons
21:06:53 <andythenorth> BUT they change often :P
21:07:03 <andythenorth> after play-testing I often remove new cargos
21:07:35 <Snail> sounds so lovely… from a set developer’s POV :D
21:08:06 <Snail> especially because I would clearly see “vehicle bodies” as a subcargo of “vehicle parts"
21:10:18 <andythenorth> it’s not a classification system :)
21:10:28 <andythenorth> cargos are designed to make industry chains work
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21:11:29 <andythenorth> so in this case it gives a connection from metal to vehicles
21:11:54 <Snail> can’t you use vehicle parts to make that connection?
21:12:02 <andythenorth> well yes, but then it makes no sense
21:12:14 <andythenorth> all things are possible :)
21:12:24 <andythenorth> not all things make a good cargo flow in game
21:12:51 <Snail> thinking about it, it would be fun to strip my cars out of wheels and glass… and have them as a new cargo
21:13:03 <Snail> but that would be hardly noticeable, given the small size
21:14:32 <Wolf01> <andythenorth> so in this case it gives a connection from metal to vehicles <- I always play metal on road trips
21:15:09 <Wolf01> Usually that too, but I prefer metal
21:16:07 <Snail> andythenorth: I love your truck cabs, but they’re too big to fit my trains
21:16:17 <Snail> I’d have to draw new ones… I’ll think about that
21:16:27 <Snail> also I like to draw realistic ones :D
21:16:40 <andythenorth> FIRS must be a nightmare for vehicle authors :P
21:16:54 <andythenorth> there are now 63 cargos
21:16:56 <Snail> well, at least you’re honest enough to accept it :D
21:17:16 <andythenorth> I make 3 active vehicle sets and a station set :P
21:17:36 <andythenorth> I have skin in the game when I add cargos ;)
21:18:49 <Snail> let’s say bulk cargo is not that much of a problem (I usually deal with it using recoloring)
21:19:09 <Snail> it’s piece good cargo that’s a pain, because I need to draw new stuff
21:20:46 <andythenorth> there’s a reason I put a month or so into automating cargo placement on vehicles :)
21:21:02 <andythenorth> also, tarpaulins and crates solve a lot of problems
21:21:23 <Snail> but I can’t put “vehicle bodies” in crates :D
21:21:30 <planetmaker> crates, barrels, containers ftw ;)
21:22:15 <planetmaker> I totally understand the notion to draw nice fitting cargoes for the vehicles. It really adds to the flair and beauty
21:57:50 <andythenorth> going to be beaten by NCG
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22:16:28 <supermop_home> this steam truck looks ugly
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22:23:50 <rubenwardy_> Thought I knew OTTD, apparently not
22:23:57 <rubenwardy_> those are all one way paths
22:24:35 <rubenwardy_> there's two exits, one with three tracks which merges to one track (left) one with one track (bottom). The two trains shown are stuck
22:25:06 <frosch123> you probably have 90-degree turns disabled
22:25:24 <frosch123> so the train on the upper platform cannot reach the exit at the bottom
22:25:26 <rubenwardy_> it shouldn't need to take any 90-deg
22:25:57 <frosch123> anyway, also enable "show track reservation"
22:26:07 <rubenwardy_> the train on top wants to go left
22:26:52 <rubenwardy_> the only track that changed color is the one where the training is looping
22:26:53 <frosch123> another common issue is to forget electrification on some track pieces
22:27:04 <rubenwardy_> that is what I've done
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22:43:58 <andythenorth> supermop_home: stick a chimney on a normal truck, and paint the windows black (no glass)
22:44:01 <andythenorth> seems to work :P
22:44:58 <Vadtec> andythenorth: im playing FIRS for the first time, i really like the enhanced production levels and interdependency of all the industries
22:45:14 <Vadtec> makes train networks behave more normally
22:45:25 <andythenorth> which FIRS economy are you playing? :)
22:46:20 <andythenorth> yeah that’s a nice one, not too big
22:46:44 <andythenorth> quite a nice flow, the chart shows it
22:47:18 <Vadtec> the psycho in me wants to do extreme :P
22:47:55 <andythenorth> it isn’t crap, but I don’t like it very much
22:48:50 <andythenorth> In A Hot Country is pretty simplistic, quite relaxing usually, most things get exports
22:49:03 <Vadtec> im about to saturate this line trying to keep up with chemicals lol...
22:50:10 <Vadtec> i better redesign this station before i get boxed in, or its gonna crush itself lol
22:50:16 <Vadtec> i love problems like this
22:51:15 <Alkel_U3> I'd like to try heart of darkness but I'd like a train set in the spirit of troprs set with it. Sadly that one's quite old and incompatible with some of the new cargos.
22:51:32 <andythenorth> one day I’ll finish making one :P
22:52:48 <Alkel_U3> that's a new roster for iron Horse?
22:53:27 <andythenorth> but the graphics are unfinished
22:53:33 <supermop_home> it seems more or less done
22:53:41 <supermop_home> what sprites are needed?
22:53:48 <andythenorth> various steam engines
22:54:00 <andythenorth> can’t remember which
22:54:49 <Alkel_U3> can I get my hands on the developement version somwhere or are you just saying "soon"? :-)
22:55:04 <supermop_home> I cant draw steam for you
22:57:46 <andythenorth> the parameters might be buggy
22:58:22 <andythenorth> yeah it’s on roster 2, keep clicking the roster parameter until it shows up
22:58:32 <andythenorth> it needs Termite
22:58:38 <andythenorth> most of the trains are narrow gauge
22:59:09 <andythenorth> ach NCG beat me: 129% food, 39% explosives, 113% peat
22:59:39 <andythenorth> 120k tonnes goals, 16 years (actually 15 due to the NCG bug)
23:00:02 <Alkel_U3> then I better learn fast to code that dual-gauge track in nml :-)
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