IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-04-27
⏴ go to previous day
00:32:03 *** Biolunar has joined #openttd
01:12:06 *** Lokimaros has joined #openttd
01:28:04 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 has joined #openttd
04:50:44 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
05:26:14 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd
05:30:18 *** nekomaster has joined #openttd
05:34:55 *** supermop has joined #openttd
06:31:38 *** cosmobird has joined #openttd
07:17:26 *** chomwitt has joined #openttd
07:30:31 *** nekomaster has joined #openttd
07:37:29 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
07:38:54 *** andythenorth has left #openttd
07:45:05 *** Supercheese has joined #openttd
07:45:22 *** chomwitt has joined #openttd
08:05:24 *** sim-al2 is now known as Guest1259
08:05:28 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd
08:10:31 *** sim-al2 is now known as Guest1260
08:10:32 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd
08:25:07 *** Biolunar has joined #openttd
09:14:41 *** berndj is now known as Guest1267
09:27:39 *** Alberth has joined #openttd
09:27:39 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
09:31:17 *** nekomaster has joined #openttd
09:35:33 *** Biolunar has joined #openttd
10:08:27 *** smoke_fumus has joined #openttd
10:55:30 <__ln__> i wasn't expecting you for another 27 minutes
10:56:29 <Wolf01> Eh salesman of worwerk from hell decided is a good thing to awake the wolf
11:03:27 *** TrueBrain has joined #openttd
11:24:35 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
11:32:02 *** nekomaster has joined #openttd
12:00:32 *** andythenorth has left #openttd
13:31:08 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd
14:01:25 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd
14:39:48 *** nekomaster has joined #openttd
14:42:33 *** chomwitt has joined #openttd
15:15:06 *** cosmobird has joined #openttd
15:32:15 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd
16:12:41 *** nekomaster has left #openttd
16:34:29 *** Guest1267 is now known as berndj
16:55:10 *** TrueBrain has joined #openttd
16:55:33 *** TrueBrain-Bot has joined #openttd
17:41:55 *** kiwitree has joined #openttd
17:46:43 *** Progman has joined #openttd
18:40:24 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd
18:49:39 *** gelignite has joined #openttd
19:00:51 *** Hiddenfunstuff has joined #openttd
19:27:03 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd
20:16:41 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd
20:24:42 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
21:05:05 *** Stimrol has joined #openttd
21:09:49 *** Arveen2 has joined #openttd
21:42:51 *** Hiddenfunstuff has quit IRC
22:01:19 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd
22:36:21 *** sim-al2 is now known as Guest1295
22:36:23 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd
23:19:51 *** nekomaster has joined #openttd
23:20:08 <nekomaster> So I have my Canada heightmap done, sorta
23:20:15 <nekomaster> but its at 8192x8192 resolution
23:20:45 <nekomaster> and while at that resolution I have nice shore lines, if I downsize it I loose the shore lines and end up with two tile high cliff's
23:23:46 <Cubey> You mean if you pick 4096x4096 in game, or if you downscale it in GIMP or whatever?
23:24:13 <nekomaster> Yeah, is there some way to downsize in GIMP or some other program and keep the shore lines. I can give you examples of what I mean
23:24:41 <Cubey> I mean, if you think about a heightmap as a 3D surface
23:24:57 <Cubey> Then it makes sense that your coasts become steeper when you shrink the image
23:25:24 <nekomaster> yeah but at 8K I have long coasts which I dont really want either, but at 4K the shores become too steep with no step
23:25:29 <Cubey> Like let's say your map has x, y, and z dimensions, where the brightness of the pixel denotes the z value
23:25:39 <nekomaster> though I could always just turn down the brightness I would like a bit of a shoreline
23:25:43 <Cubey> If you shrink the x and y coordinates by 50%, you also have to shrink the z by 50%
23:26:22 <Cubey> When you generate a game from a heightmap, you have to pick the maximum map height...the default is 16 I think? I'm not sure
23:26:35 <nekomaster> I believe the default is 16
23:26:57 <Cubey> Have you experimented with smoothing the image? For example applying a gaussian blur to the whole thing
23:27:19 <Cubey> If you have weird artifacts on the coasts that you don't like
23:27:32 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd
23:27:37 <nekomaster> No, but I was using Lanzcos resizing in irfan view
23:28:17 <Cubey> Lanczos might induce ringing artifacts
23:29:02 <Cubey> Sharper filters like lanczos are best for upscaling, because they make a less blurry image
23:29:23 <Cubey> But for downscaling that isn't necessarily the case
23:30:13 <Cubey> When you are upscaling, you wish you had more detail in the image than you actually do, so you use a filter that makes more complex decisions to trick the viewer's eye into thinking the upscaled image is still sharp
23:30:23 <Cubey> When you are downscaling you have more detail than you need, and you need to throw away some
23:30:43 <Cubey> But also heightmaps are different from images and they also get mangled by OpenTTD, because it can only depict one type of slope
23:31:00 <nekomaster> btw I can give you a dropbox link to show the map I have, maybe someone with better skills then I do can figure out how to keep some of hte shore line
23:31:28 <Cubey> Ok let's take a look at this
23:31:41 <nekomaster> Though if its not possible, then I'll just have the map at 1 tile above sea level
23:33:04 <Cubey> What do you mean by "long" coasts?
23:33:05 <nekomaster> Oh and another problem I've had while trying to resize, is that some rivers end up closing up
23:33:27 <Cubey> Yeah, you are probably going to have to manually clean those up
23:33:34 <Cubey> Because of that slope problem I'm talking about
23:34:04 <nekomaster> I wonder if its even worth the trouble to make a shoreline
23:35:48 <Cubey> Hey this looks pretty good
23:36:16 <nekomaster> I tried to add most of the major lakes and rivers and put some in area's where water is sparse
23:36:21 <nekomaster> to keep things interesting
23:37:07 <Cubey> The west coast is really messy (because the heightmap is so noisy around there with all the mountains), so some smoothing might help that
23:37:30 <Cubey> And I think you can fix the coastal flats being one step too high by playing with the levels tool or curves tool a little more
23:38:17 <nekomaster> thing is I already set the levels, the brightness goes up by 5 steps from 0 for each tile
23:38:21 <Cubey> Smoothing and leveling will probably close off some of the rivers, but you can prevent that to some extent by making a layer on top of the image of just the water
23:38:26 <Cubey> And leaving the water alone
23:38:34 <nekomaster> Oh yeah, I totally forgot about htat
23:38:55 <nekomaster> just use the color select tool before I smooth out things and then fill the selection with black for the water
23:39:02 <Cubey> Like once you have the water the way you want it, select all the solid black pixels and paste them into a new layer that you don't change anymore
23:39:04 <nekomaster> that way it'll keep all of the water ways open
23:39:21 <Cubey> But some of them may still get closed off when the game generates the map, because of the slopes
23:39:35 <Cubey> So you will still have to check it and manually dig them out in the scenario editor
23:39:50 <nekomaster> Thing is though theres so many water ways
23:40:28 <Cubey> Surprisingly they all seem to be OK as it is right now, so keeping the water layer static might just work
23:40:45 <Cubey> I can even see little islands in like the hudson river and st lawrence river that are properly surrounded by water
23:41:15 <nekomaster> yeah, I'm not too too worried about loosing tiny islands
23:42:04 <Cubey> I'm just saying that islands would be a place you'd expect to see the waterways closing up when the map generates
23:42:38 <Cubey> Because the transition from sea-level to ground level might be too steep for the openttd grid
23:42:52 <Cubey> But that seems not to be the case here, so that's a good sign
23:46:54 *** andythenorth has left #openttd
23:46:55 <nekomaster> if anything though, I wonder what people prefer, having a bit of a shore line/beach, or just having the lowest ground across the map at 1 tile above the sea
23:47:56 <Cubey> The random map generator and most scenarios I've seen tend to have like, coastal plains at height level 1
23:48:15 <nekomaster> maybe I should do that to make things simpler for people
23:48:26 <nekomaster> I did say before I wanted this to be fun, not super realistic
23:48:37 <Cubey> I finally got GIMP open and I can see what you mean about the color steps
23:48:52 <Cubey> Like the darkest shade is 5 steps darker than the second darkest
23:49:21 <Cubey> It looks like you only have about 13 or 14 shades in use
23:49:54 <Cubey> So you should generate the map with max height 14 I guess. Or maybe someone knows if that is zero indexed or whatever
23:50:50 <nekomaster> its been stretched
23:51:02 <Cubey> Smoothing will just blend all these distinct shades together, so maybe that will make things worse... I'm gonna mess around with it and see
23:51:42 <nekomaster> also I would like to make an even smaller version at 2048x2048 while keeping the water ways
23:52:13 <nekomaster> I'd like to make two scenarios, one at 2048x2048 for most peole, and at 4092x4092 for the crazy people that want to try and make a realistic railroad
23:52:19 <Cubey> Putting the waterways in a separate layer will probably help with that
23:57:09 <Cubey> Wait on a closer look I just realized you specifically defined two brightness layers between the plains and the water
23:57:42 <Cubey> Like your 8192x8192 image has coasts two or three pixels wide around the entire landmass
23:58:09 <nekomaster> thats what I was talking about but I might scrap that idea
23:58:32 <Cubey> I thought it was like a mystery why that was happening
23:58:51 <nekomaster> For example, I believe each level is 50 meters
23:59:19 <nekomaster> and Toronto, Ontario, is only 76 meters above sea level
23:59:54 <Cubey> Most of the densely populated places on Earth would be at lvl1 in openttd maps
continue to next day ⏵
