IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-04-15
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08:20:36 <quiznilo> if I find I have too many passengers piling up at a station, I collect them all up and take them out to a FIRS fishing ground drop them off
08:21:06 <quiznilo> you have a morbid sense of humor
08:25:08 <quiznilo> claims it accepts passengers... it does not... sad
08:26:49 <andythenorth> tile will, industry won’t
08:27:04 <quiznilo> I couldn't even force them off
08:27:41 <andythenorth> station says it accepts
08:28:14 <andythenorth> tile-accepts-but-industry-doesn’t is an edge case, might be odd behaviour there
08:28:16 <quiznilo> caveat, I'm using async cargodest, but I couldn't get passengers to leave the ship
08:28:36 <andythenorth> yeah, maybe it needs the industry acceptance in that case
08:28:45 <andythenorth> or the link isn’t established yet
08:29:48 <quiznilo> a sandbank is-a oil rig?
08:30:23 <andythenorth> station names are not my department :D
08:30:32 <andythenorth> other people did those
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08:49:09 <Alberth> so perhaps "extreme" advantage is freedom in choice?
08:49:20 <Alberth> ie not all industries aimed at asingle purpose
08:50:54 <Alberth> hmm, weather-forecast casts we get some sun and some clouds, but so far, clouds win :)
08:59:23 <andythenorth> Alberth: FIRS makefile now misses graphviz :)
09:03:19 <Alberth> needs a few more build rules :)
09:04:16 <Alberth> on the other hand, it protects you from the messy economies mess :p
09:07:35 <andythenorth> I’m not sure how frosch’s insane trick works :)
09:13:37 <Alberth> ifeq ($(DOT)$(GVPR),$(GVPR)$(DOT)) <-- this?
09:14:35 <Alberth> it tests 2 strings for equality, one string is the 'dot' path + the 'gvpr' path, and the other string does the same, but concatenates in reverse order
09:15:00 <Alberth> so if both paths are empty, you compare two empty strings -> equal
09:15:15 <Alberth> if one is empty, you compare the same path -> equal
09:15:27 <Alberth> if both are non-empty, -> not equal
09:15:50 <Alberth> unless 'dot' is the same executable as 'gvpr' :p
09:16:19 <Alberth> so yeah, quite clever way to check that both paths are non-empty
09:19:26 <Alberth> one path is empty is the tricky one. suppose DOT='dot', and GVPR='' (empty)
09:19:59 <Alberth> ifeq('dot' + '', '' + 'dot) ----> if ('dot','dot') ----> equal
09:20:24 <Alberth> ie you can concatenate the empty string on either side, the result is the same
09:22:08 <andythenorth> wondering if I can copy-paste it
09:23:34 <Alberth> I would probably make it a separate target, but it's not necessary, since you basically want to do it as part of the html-docs build anyway
09:59:01 <Alberth> does it make a difference if you put the ifeq/else/endig against the left margin?
09:59:48 <Alberth> it's not a shell command, you pick one of the sides while constructing the makefile, before it is executed (or rather, while it is executed)
10:00:38 <Alberth> must do some shopping biab
10:26:55 <Eddi|zuHause> there haven't been any new posts in the suggestions forum in a week. this game is officially done now.
10:35:29 <andythenorth> it’s pretty close
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12:41:27 <Wolf01> Wow, deep learning with R
12:41:45 <Wolf01> But I should first learn R
12:42:55 <andythenorth> do wagon speed limits suck?
12:44:17 <Wolf01> I like to attach a 80km/h limited wagon to a 140km/h engine
12:44:40 <Eddi|zuHause> no. just don't do the pikka thing where each wagon has a slightly different limit
12:45:41 <andythenorth> should engine and wagon generations arrive at the same time?
12:45:55 <andythenorth> (with wagon and engine speeds matched)
12:46:25 <Wolf01> Feel like something you must purchase in bundle
12:46:26 <andythenorth> I prefer not having them synchronised, but that’s for drawing reasons
12:46:43 <andythenorth> there are 4 or 5 generations of engine, only 3 of wagons
12:46:56 <andythenorth> I don’t want to draw more :P
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12:54:49 <andythenorth> bored of my test game after 15 years :|
13:05:51 <Wolf01> Mmmh stupid links with symbols
13:11:13 <andythenorth> need to drop the chinook from Iron Horse :P
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13:40:17 <andythenorth> wagon speed increase before engine speed increase?
13:40:24 <andythenorth> or engine speed increase before wagon speed increase?
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13:43:05 <Wolf01> Random? Like E-W-W-E-W-E?
13:44:38 <frosch123> andythenorth: the important part is that trains with different cargo have the same top-speed most of the time
13:44:45 <andythenorth> Wolf01: so it’s not a repeating pattern?
13:44:51 <frosch123> so they can share tracks without waiting on each other all the time
13:45:26 <frosch123> it's somewhat accepted that they are different
13:46:59 * andythenorth trying to find right cadence for introducing trains
13:47:05 <andythenorth> trucks work well at 29 years
13:47:24 <andythenorth> trams at 40 years
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13:52:41 <andythenorth> problem #1 is that I know too much about UK trains :(
13:52:53 <andythenorth> I could really do with lobotomising that bit of my brain
14:04:05 <andythenorth> reset of dates, stats
14:04:15 <andythenorth> might be worse afterwards, not sure :P
14:04:56 <Alberth> it seemed to work mostly, imho
14:05:16 <Alberth> a bit early-ish for me, but fair enough
14:05:38 <Alberth> it's all just a number anyway
14:08:19 <andythenorth> 1860-1960 is pretty good
14:08:22 <andythenorth> then it gets a bit lost
14:09:23 <andythenorth> it goes to about 2000 or so
14:11:51 <andythenorth> also lengths are bothering me
14:11:59 <andythenorth> I want neat 0.5 length multiples
14:14:44 <Alberth> there is no simple list, is there?
14:17:28 <Alberth> oh, dear, it has rosters too, I must be missing so much :)
14:26:37 <andythenorth> there’s only one working roster
14:26:59 <andythenorth> frosch123: I broke the FIRS graphviz with new makefile :P
14:27:33 <andythenorth> but I am clearly doing it wrong
14:40:57 <frosch123> anything specific that does not work?
14:41:19 <frosch123> are you hinting at "graphviz not found" with your L90 comment?
14:42:48 <frosch123> the target $HTML_DOCS looks weird
14:42:51 <frosch123> is that a directory?
14:42:54 <andythenorth> “Makefile:95: *** missing separator. Stop.”
14:44:34 <frosch123> remove the empty line at 90?
14:45:09 <frosch123> also you are not using tabs in that pbyx paste
14:45:41 <frosch123> 93, 95, 96, 97 need tab
14:45:56 <frosch123> the "directory is target" makes little sens
14:46:19 <frosch123> but you seem to do that all over the place :p
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15:47:50 <andythenorth> wish I could stop focus-follows-mouse :(
15:47:56 <andythenorth> it’s making OpenTTD unusable
15:48:54 <Wolf01> Ha, on windows we have to enable it if we need it :P
15:49:50 <andythenorth> it’s irritatingly intermittent
15:50:13 <Wolf01> Useful when doing some things and irritating with other things
15:50:27 <andythenorth> it’s somehow related to scroll
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15:51:34 <Wolf01> On windows just scrolling doesn't change focus
15:52:57 <andythenorth> must be some OS X specific bug
15:53:08 <Wolf01> It's irritating with multi monitor when you don't look where the pointer is and when you scroll the chat window you boost up/down the volume of the video you are watching in the other monitor :P
15:53:16 <andythenorth> it wasn’t present in OpenTTD on previous OS X versions
15:53:33 <andythenorth> and it’s present in older binaries
15:54:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i like focus follows mouse
15:54:24 <Eddi|zuHause> but it doesn't properly follow the mouse on drag&drop
15:54:53 <Eddi|zuHause> and focus under mouse is too strict, because that makes alt+tab unusable
15:55:36 <Wolf01> You should be able to set the timeout
15:56:48 <Wolf01> I set it to 2 seconds so it won't focuses every single window when I move the mouse rapidly
15:56:59 <andythenorth> there’s no setting for it in OpenTTD, right? o_O
15:57:08 <Eddi|zuHause> drag&drop basically disables following the mouse
15:57:18 <Eddi|zuHause> so whatever window i drop on, will not have focus
15:57:26 <Eddi|zuHause> i have to either leave the window and come back, or click
15:57:32 <Eddi|zuHause> it's mighty annoying
15:57:37 <Eddi|zuHause> and there's no setting
15:57:51 <Alberth> kde has a range of different notions on focus following mouse
15:58:03 <Eddi|zuHause> and all of them are "wrong" in some way
15:59:05 <Alberth> andythenorth: nope, it mostly uses whatever the display library provides (eg SDL, but don't know what OSX uses)
15:59:24 <andythenorth> OS X has no follow-focus built in afaik
15:59:32 <Alberth> the fact that it is broken for older openttds suggests it's not caused by openttd
15:59:48 <andythenorth> I was hoping I was overlooking a setting
16:00:07 <andythenorth> but it’s unreliable behaviour, so unlikely to be due to a setting
16:00:49 <Alberth> no focus follows mouse setting??? people like getting RSI apparently
16:01:23 <andythenorth> I guess I am used to clicking a lot
16:01:40 <Alberth> let me guess, it also does auto-raise :p
16:03:04 <Alberth> gnome does it too, and no way to get sane behavior there; it has no other way to raise a window with the mouse
16:03:59 * andythenorth trying to debug it
16:04:51 <andythenorth> it’s particularly annoying when opening a new window
16:05:00 <andythenorth> as the one that is being opened goes behind the opener
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16:05:48 <andythenorth> OpenTTD has no problems on recent Windows?
16:05:53 <Alberth> with an apple? nah, can't be :p
16:05:56 * andythenorth wonders if it’s time to switch
16:09:15 <Wolf01> Why should it have problems?
16:09:18 <Alberth> there is this zoom problem thingie, but that can apparently be solved
16:09:49 <andythenorth> “Function of scrollwheel:” setting that to “zoom map” or “off” seems to cure the issue
16:09:58 <andythenorth> testing intermittent issues is hard :P
16:10:08 <Alberth> and w10 is designed as spyware, which may or may not be a problem
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16:25:13 <andythenorth> diligently increasing the OS X bug count
16:33:21 <peter1138> i don't even know what it means
16:42:07 <andythenorth> I considered making a video
16:47:20 <andythenorth> ach 35MB limit on FS
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17:16:03 <Wolf01> On windows the scrolling of the map with the scrollwheel doesn't seem to work
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17:18:24 <supermop_home> Wolf01is that even a feature?
17:19:13 <Wolf01> Why not? All my mice have 2 axis scrollwheels
17:21:07 <Wolf01> BTW I think the 1st problem (newgrf parameters window) is a bug, since it should be modal
17:25:38 <Wolf01> All the other windows come to front when they have focus, I think is a standard feature, ok the fact they get the scrollwheel as focus might be strange
17:25:58 <andythenorth> they shouldn’t focus on hover
17:28:41 <Wolf01> In the game is really weird
17:33:19 <Wolf01> Does OS X recognize game windows? Or maybe the mouse constantly send some input to focus stuff
17:33:32 <Wolf01> Like a sort of "button 4"
17:33:50 <Wolf01> I bet the game reacts even to my button 4 and 5
17:35:33 <frosch123> there is a setting to control the behaviour of the scrollwheel
17:35:37 <frosch123> its zoom by default iirc
17:35:52 <frosch123> but i also think the two-wheel scrolling is bjarni only
17:36:08 <Wolf01> That doesn't seem to work on windows and does strange stuff to andy
17:36:48 <Wolf01> I should try with the other mouse which has the touch wheel
17:36:51 <andythenorth> it’s only ‘scroll map’ that’s borked
17:36:55 * andythenorth suspects a patch
17:37:05 <andythenorth> iirc, I tested one some time when
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17:38:12 <andythenorth> this one is too old I think
17:38:12 <frosch123> how can wolf close andys windows?
17:38:55 * andythenorth has to go read git
17:39:00 <frosch123> take the first two degits, and put a 20 in front
17:40:31 <Wolf01> Ok, back in r27358 it didn't work too even with the other mouse
17:40:36 <andythenorth> ach dunno, can’t see any post-2013 commits referencing scrolling on OS X
17:40:41 <Wolf01> It never worked I think
19:00:29 <_dp_> I fucking hate microsoft
19:00:38 <_dp_> why can't they make programs that just work
19:00:56 <argoneus> good evening train friends
19:01:10 <_dp_> takes me several hours to get through some stupid crap every time I go to windows to compile new release :(
19:15:07 <Alberth> compilers don't make money :)
19:15:24 <Alberth> in particular, anything non-.NET :p
19:21:50 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: so did the refund thing go anywhere?
19:22:18 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: and sure, must certainly be a comma :p
19:35:57 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: DanMacK was last seen in #openttd 51 weeks, 0 days, 1 hour, and 53 seconds ago: <DanMacK> @seen andythenorth
19:36:05 <andythenorth> he might manage the year
19:36:34 * andythenorth back to drawing pixels
19:49:22 <V453000> slug world domination here yet?
19:57:07 <V453000> ultimately geometrically corret ship drawn?
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20:02:09 <Alberth> factorio in real-life :p
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20:26:16 <argoneus> "compilers don't make money"
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21:13:24 <supermop> andythenorth: that coke oven is new?
21:13:33 <supermop> looks like something out of the early 70s
21:13:44 <andythenorth> yeah, I’m doing a relatively modern one
21:13:49 <andythenorth> most people won’t know different
21:16:23 <supermop> there is something achingly beautiful about the last generation of truly dirty heavy industry
21:16:46 <supermop> chemical lants and refineries from late 60s japan or europe
21:17:23 <supermop> international orange strips on skinny guyed smokestacks
21:18:17 <supermop> i guess without the EPA we will be going back to that stuff, but the building are just going to look like boring pole barns
21:18:51 <supermop> most arc furnaces ive seen here just look like some generic shed with a pile of scrap metal out front
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21:40:37 <andythenorth> proportions of the coke battery aren’t right
21:40:46 <andythenorth> but I’ll stick some pipes and stuff on and see
21:53:53 <quiznilo> gonna see if I can test out FIRS tip, see if I can find some bugs
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22:25:26 <quiznilo> installing chameleon and markdown... for some reason, NML was already installed
22:26:44 <quiznilo> hmm... no config, so just hit 'make'?
22:42:45 <peter1138> hmm just found another old directory of patches...
23:00:29 <quiznilo> is firs.grf the only file I have to cp?
23:02:38 <quiznilo> and there it is... FIRS Industry Replacement Set r5510, just as advertised. Gonna try Steeltown
23:05:59 <Wolf01> <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: so did the refund thing go anywhere? <- they are working on it, a lot of people seem to have the problem
23:08:53 <quiznilo> "There were no suitable places for 'Basic Oxygen Furnace' industries. Change the map generation parameters to get a better map." ottd 1.7.0, subarctic 1840 start, FIRS r5510
23:09:14 <quiznilo> should I report bugs here or on a forum?
23:09:50 <quiznilo> I don't bash devs *indignant look*
23:10:08 <Wolf01> He is a devloloper, like me
23:12:27 <quiznilo> also, getting this error message for TTRS 1.2 "Loading TTRS bridges is useless, you should disable TTRS bridges if you lack free memory"
23:13:12 <Wolf01> Disable the bridges then, it's useless since they are part of the baseset
23:13:28 <andythenorth> interesting that BOF won’t build
23:13:36 <andythenorth> just once, or more often>
23:13:48 <quiznilo> 2 out of 2 times so far
23:14:25 <quiznilo> 3/3 times subactic, 1840
23:15:15 <quiznilo> nada temperate, 1840
23:15:18 <andythenorth> is it mountainous?
23:15:33 <andythenorth> shouldn’t but try it
23:15:42 <andythenorth> how many blast furnaces on the map?
23:16:27 <quiznilo> tried very flat, 1840, no good... a sec
23:17:07 <Wolf01> Could you do more tries to place industries? Maybe on last try you should force terraforming
23:17:09 <quiznilo> 1851, temperate flat works
23:17:23 <andythenorth> flat doesn’t matter, it’s a date bug
23:17:35 <quiznilo> I'm just reporting the results with all the params
23:17:36 <andythenorth> it checks for blast furnaces, which aren’t available until 1850
23:17:51 <andythenorth> try your preferred map style again :)
23:17:53 <peter1138> hmm, well, not found my old map generator :(
23:18:23 <quiznilo> 1851 subarctic works
23:19:37 <peter1138> it uses floats, YEAH
23:20:10 <quiznilo> I have 1.00000000028 trains
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23:30:23 <Wolf01> Clicking on the "exit" button in the video to close the game is priceless
23:30:56 <Wolf01> Like when one tries to scroll a screenshot
23:44:48 <quiznilo> there is actually a 'Limekiln Pike' near me
23:52:33 <quiznilo> andy was asking about station name ideas
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