IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-03-30
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00:05:00 <FLHerne> OPF does have the advantage of being actually readable
00:06:09 <Wolf01> I want to try to make an AI for OTTD... with every kind of problem, just to piss off Samu ;)
00:06:54 <Wolf01> Like "do well for 5 years then suddenly become stupid as a brick"
00:07:46 <Wolf01> Or try to get in all the weirdest situations, like blocked ships
00:08:57 <Eddi|zuHause> too bad i wouldn't read any of his complaints
00:15:00 <Wolf01> Speaking of ignore, I miss you on steam
00:17:37 <Eddi|zuHause> lets discuss that some other time
00:24:10 <peter1138> my mountain bike would be alright
00:24:21 <peter1138> it's about 20 years old and weighs a bit more than modern bikes :p
00:29:48 <Wolf01> At least it should be more durable ;)
00:46:25 <Samu> we need an ai that makes use of rivers, canals, aqueducts
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10:49:31 <Wolf01> Oh hi, long time no see
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12:43:33 <Wolf01> I didn't notice that we had the Prince of Madness in this chan :D
12:45:07 <peter1138> we fork & exec the extmidi process, which is nice
12:45:45 <peter1138> but one process i use doesn't cleanly shutdown on SIGTERM, but does with SIGINT
12:48:08 <Wolf01> Internet didn't gave you any suitable solution?
12:48:34 <peter1138> well i know i can send whatever signal i like
12:48:39 <peter1138> but i don't know what is appropriate
12:48:56 <peter1138> i mean, is it just a bug in this other program that it doesn't cleanly shutdown on SIGTERM?
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12:52:06 <peter1138> orudge fix your shitty connection young man
12:52:42 <Wolf01> Maybe I should donate 5€
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13:42:13 <Samu> shouldn't 'the_dir' be TrackdirBits?
13:45:01 <peter1138> 100 tpf->the_dir = TrackEnterdirToTrackdir(track, direction);
13:45:11 <peter1138> ^ trackdir, not trackdirbits
13:45:52 <Wolf01> Oh, Eddi|zuHause they seem to have fixed the blasting sound volume in the menu of transport fever :D
13:46:37 <Samu> it gets trackdir but stores as trackdirbyte
13:46:49 <Wolf01> Now it would be cool if it gets fixed in OTTD too :>
13:47:01 <peter1138> Wolf01, the intro game?
13:47:10 <Wolf01> Nah, BMG in the entire game
13:47:36 <peter1138> what's wrong with it?
13:47:45 <Wolf01> Every time I launch the game I get the music at 100% while it is at 15%
13:48:25 <Wolf01> I need to move the volume slider to make it work right
13:48:43 <peter1138> don't see it on flyspray
13:48:59 <Wolf01> I was sure I reported it a lot of time ago...
13:52:47 <Wolf01> Wow... rail speed layer, this is really a good addition
13:53:32 <Wolf01> Ha! There is a stupid slowdown from 120 to 87
13:54:15 <peter1138> well, music volume is set on start up
13:55:31 <peter1138> does it stay the same volume when the track changes?
13:55:50 <Wolf01> I don't know, never gave it time
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13:59:24 <Wolf01> It seem to do it only the first time I run the game, if I quit and run it again the volume is right
14:00:27 <Wolf01> *after changing the volume, if I don't change the volume I bet it stays at 100% every time
14:00:42 <Wolf01> But I might have to reboot to check it
14:01:12 <peter1138> is it dmusic or win32 driver?
14:02:09 <peter1138> (run in a terminal)
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14:03:42 <Wolf01> Oh ok, I had to start the music
14:07:20 <Samu> peter1138: if it's Trackdir, why is it using TrackdirByte, any special reason?
14:11:32 <peter1138> + TrackdirByte track;
14:11:45 <peter1138> r8038: merge cpp branch
14:12:55 <Samu> gonna try Trackdir, see if it crashes or something
14:20:11 <Wolf01> Do you know about variable types?
14:22:09 <Samu> line 141 is also confusing
14:22:26 <Samu> why not Direction ship_dir
14:24:43 <Samu> i don't understand this stuff
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14:37:59 <peter1138> hello dragonhorseboy
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15:32:50 <Samu> alright, i might be able to do something for opf after all, but it requires some struct changes
15:33:10 <Samu> i need to have ship owner in the pfs
15:33:49 <Samu> TrackPathFinder { bla; bla; Owner ship_owner; };
15:36:01 <Samu> now i can detect a ship depot tile of the owner of the ship
15:36:45 <Samu> now, all i have to do is... pathfind to something that is a ship depot tile
15:37:14 <Samu> whatever it finds first, use it as the destination
15:55:30 <Wolf01> Nice, double slip switches, let me see if I can fix some stations now
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19:00:37 <Samu> yay, for the first time, I made opf locate a ship depot on its own
19:00:57 <Samu> but it fails most of the time
19:01:04 <Samu> hmm wondering how i can improve this
19:01:24 <Alberth> improve the heuristic
19:03:37 <Samu> i'm not really sure how it checks the tiles
19:03:58 <Alberth> it might not even do that
19:04:13 <Alberth> it's not a proper path-finder like yapf or npf
19:04:19 <Samu> when it doesn't have the destination tile, i had to fake a "bird_dist"
19:04:46 <Samu> keeps on decreasing bird_dist-- every check
19:04:56 <Samu> just so it can keep searching
19:05:32 <Alberth> ok, I never read the code of opf
19:05:36 <Samu> how to fake this bird_dist better?
19:05:48 <Samu> the destination tile is unknown
19:06:02 <Samu> but it requires some distance, to see if it's closer to the target
19:07:02 <Alberth> do you know about bisection?
19:10:05 <Alberth> say you want to find a word in a dictionary
19:10:37 <Alberth> basically it can be anywhere, but the book is ordered alphabetically
19:11:23 <Alberth> bisection say that you have a first place where it can be and a last place where it can be, and it's anywhere inbetween
19:11:51 <Alberth> you pick the page in the middle between both places, and check an entry there
19:12:36 <Alberth> if that entry is smaller than what you're looking for, you know the word you're looking for is not in the first half
19:12:49 <Alberth> if it's bigger, the word is not in the second half
19:13:20 <Alberth> so you're reducing the number of pages to look by 50%
19:13:50 <Alberth> you can of course play this game again with the remaining pages
19:14:03 <Alberth> until you found the word, or concluded it's not in it
19:14:06 <Samu> i can retrieve the location of all depots
19:14:21 <Samu> and then send it to the pathfinder as destination
19:14:27 <Samu> see if it can find for each?
19:14:44 <Alberth> is a depot at the other side of the map useful to try?
19:15:40 <Samu> there is a max_distance of about 12 tiles for automatic service, and an unlimited distance for forced service
19:16:05 <Samu> it's 12 for opf for some reason, the other 2 it's about 20
19:18:40 <Samu> hmm i see what you mean, i attempt to locate a depot within x tiles radius from the location of the ship
19:19:00 <Samu> send it to pathfinder to see if it can find a way to it
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19:19:54 <Alberth> not sure, but you're trying to decide a bird-distance, I thought bisection may be useful
19:23:49 <Samu> hmm i might try a different approach indeed
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19:45:46 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27836 trunk/src/lang/catalan.txt (2017-03-30 19:45:36 +0200 )
19:45:48 <DorpsGek> catalan: 2 changes by juanjo
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20:34:14 <DorpsGek> Wolf01: andythenorth was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 21 hours, 43 minutes, and 32 seconds ago: <andythenorth> ascii shrug
20:34:25 <Wolf01> Mmmh, brexit negative effect?
20:44:46 <peter1138> so apparently we have timetable stuff and it works
20:45:02 <peter1138> and apparently it can do separation? though i've never had it working
20:45:08 <peter1138> what do i do wrong?
20:45:27 <Samu> i got a problem with the loop
20:45:48 <Samu> i want it to sort before searching with the pathfinder
20:46:06 <Samu> else it can jump from depot to depot everytime is advances a tile
20:46:09 <Wolf01> Did you timetabled the entire trip with the first vehicle, them ctrl+started the vehicles from the depot?
20:46:33 <peter1138> i usually have 1 vehicle
20:46:36 <peter1138> then add others later
20:46:56 <Wolf01> Btw, I always find my vehicles clump together also when timetabled and started separate
20:47:47 <Samu> how to sort a list of depots based on distance manhattan and then have the pathfinder search in order of closest to distant?
20:48:16 <Wolf01> If you add them later you must stop the entire line and separate them again
20:48:31 <peter1138> is it this ctrl-start that does the magic?
20:48:44 <peter1138> cos i've never heard of it
20:48:51 <Wolf01> The separation seem to be done only when starting from the depot
20:49:01 <peter1138> what if they're all in different depots :S
20:49:12 <peter1138> what is the autoseparation patch?
20:49:46 <Wolf01> I think that tries to keep track on when the last vehicle of a "line" visited a station
20:49:54 <frosch123> the trunk separation is a one time thing
20:50:03 <Samu> u talking to me? i'm a bit lost
20:50:09 <frosch123> the patch is a continuous thing
20:50:25 <peter1138> are there issues with the patch?
20:50:50 <frosch123> it's kind of the opposite of timetabling
20:50:51 <Wolf01> No clue, never tried it and get tired of timetables too as they don't seem to work
20:51:23 <Wolf01> I usually set "load for 2 days"
20:51:41 <frosch123> i have no idea how it is used, whether it is a global thing or similar
20:51:52 <Wolf01> Or in case of freight, load for 10 days
20:52:05 <frosch123> but if it is, it would break synchronisation of vehicles from other routes
20:52:08 <frosch123> if someone uses that
20:53:31 <peter1138> i've never managed to achieve any form of synchronisation with the current timetables
20:53:48 <Wolf01> I like the transport fever autoseparation, it's continuous but has the only downside to block the stations, so you get the red wave effect sometimes
20:54:20 <frosch123> peter1138: anyway, i think jgr made several modifications to the original patch
20:54:41 <peter1138> jgr's patch pack is what i'm looking through
20:55:42 <peter1138> i just wonder... is it an improvement worth having, and if it is, what has stopped it being included
20:56:25 <frosch123> i have never understood the point of any kind of timetables :)
20:56:31 <peter1138> (or of course maybe just nobody's looked at it)
20:56:43 <frosch123> i certainly did not look at it
20:56:59 <frosch123> rb may have, since he did the trunk version of the other thing
20:57:08 <peter1138> i think maybe they're more useful for passenger/mail traffic than cargo, certainly
20:57:35 <peter1138> if i set up multiple vehicles on the same route, they will nearly always end up with vehicles bunched together
20:57:53 <peter1138> timetimes can help a bit but once vehicles start getting late, they are basically ignored
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20:58:21 <frosch123> i always set vehicles to load for n days, and do not set any travel times
20:58:35 <frosch123> which is more or less a work-around for percentage load
20:59:33 <frosch123> the problem with vehicles bunching up is, the first vehicle loads everything, the other ones leave empty, right?
20:59:49 <frosch123> you do not want to full-load, you do not want to half-load
20:59:59 <frosch123> load-for-n-days is the only intermediate thing we have
21:00:43 <frosch123> in general i would prefer more conditional orders, which would allow setting percentage loads per cargo type and minimum/maximum loading times
21:00:59 <frosch123> i never found a use-case for travel times
21:01:20 <frosch123> but possibly this is a pbs<->presignal, cdist<->transfer argument
21:01:43 <frosch123> vehicle separation does everything automaticaly, the order system would allow manual construction
21:04:05 <Wolf01> Also, peter1138, I hope the vanilla autoseparation doesn't relies only on autofilled timetable
21:05:44 <Wolf01> And I would like a mixed full load order with timetable (load for 15 days but leave if full load)... as now it seem to work only for load if available
21:06:28 <frosch123> i think there was some forum discussion about more detailed orders
21:06:51 <frosch123> which split up the single-entry station load order into multiple lines, to specify cargo filters, and waiting conditions
21:07:27 <frosch123> but users of that would be distinct from those using auto separation :)
21:14:45 <Wolf01> Sure, autoseparation need continuous work to be effective
21:15:04 <peter1138> in trunk? so it's effectively useless
21:19:57 <Wolf01> The problem with timetables is that you don't have enough time to make it adapt to the network, you can set "I want at the factory a load of steel on 1st april, a load of grain on 3rd april and depart with canned food on 15th april to reach the city on 4th may"
21:21:09 <Wolf01> But it's weird with planning a week(s) long trips
21:31:54 <Eddi|zuHause> trunk-separation works by ctrl+click on "startdate" in the timetable window
21:32:09 <Eddi|zuHause> but you need at least one station that has extra-long waiting times to catch up lateness
21:32:26 <Eddi|zuHause> and that station should have the ability to overtake (bit tricky with trams)
21:35:10 <Wolf01> My calculator says: the sum of those does not work
21:35:19 <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise you permanently get a late vehicle stuck behind an on-time vehicle
21:36:29 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, there is nothing "auto" about that separation
21:37:12 <Eddi|zuHause> except for saving you the trouble of setting an individual start time for each vehicle
21:38:21 <Eddi|zuHause> what's maybe missing is the ability to skip a full round-trip if you're more than X days (or X%) late
21:39:17 <Eddi|zuHause> or possibly the ability for two vehicles to flip their start date position
21:40:29 <peter1138> is this stuff this patch resolves?
21:40:51 <peter1138> i don't quite get "opposite of timetaabling"
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21:44:20 <Eddi|zuHause> "autoseparation" is more like "scheduling" rather than "realtime"
21:45:33 <Eddi|zuHause> basically, autoseparation takes over the timetable feature, so you cannot manually timetable anymore, but it constantly adjusts the times to (hopefully) keep your vehicles separated
21:46:23 <Eddi|zuHause> so you can set the times as a guideline for autoseparation, but basically they are ignored
21:46:48 <Eddi|zuHause> (except for the total roundtrip time, which gets used as the base for the separation)
21:48:51 <peter1138> so if it's there it definitely needs to be a per-order-list setting
21:52:47 <frosch123> with "opposite" i meant: timetables make vehicles always run the on the same schedule. the patch changes that to adjust the timetables all the time dependending on how the vehicles run
21:54:37 <peter1138> ideally you'd set the timetable and it would then just manage to keep them separated based on that
21:54:50 <peter1138> difficult if the timetable is too short
21:56:05 <frosch123> that's also a kind of a problem of the current auto-fill
21:56:15 <frosch123> it does not add extra time to loading timte
21:56:25 <Eddi|zuHause> in the "real" world you'd timetable with something like 80% of max speed, so you have the ability to go faster to catch up when late
21:57:42 <peter1138> overtaking would be possible if they weren't all going the same speed
21:58:04 <Wolf01> Articulated vehicles can't overtake
21:58:13 <Eddi|zuHause> trams can't overtake
21:58:26 <peter1138> but then in ottd you want your vehicles to go as fast as possible anyway
21:58:32 <Eddi|zuHause> in traffic jams you can't overtake
21:58:44 <Eddi|zuHause> vehicles don't balance over two lanes of a one-way road
21:58:51 <Eddi|zuHause> or over two parallel roads
21:58:58 <Eddi|zuHause> lots of things missing
21:59:12 <peter1138> meanwhile, clearly this patch is deemed useful as it's been around long enough
21:59:54 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i dislike autoseparation, but i can totally understand the demand for it
22:00:15 <Eddi|zuHause> afair the main problem has always been how to disable it
22:00:35 <Eddi|zuHause> there always seemed to be two settings which claimed to enable autoseparation
22:02:25 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: being able to timetable a target speed would be nice
22:02:54 <supermop> currently if i schedule a tram to drive at 80% speed over a segment, it will never go to 100 even if late
22:03:36 <Eddi|zuHause> exactly, but if you overload it too much it will be even more of a pain to set up
22:03:52 <Eddi|zuHause> there needs to be timetable macromanagement
22:04:15 <Eddi|zuHause> like instant autofilling
22:04:16 <peter1138> you can schedule speed limits?
22:05:13 <supermop> it would be nice to have a savegame wide company setting to schedule timbled vehicles to drive at x% max speed?
22:05:27 <supermop> to save figuring it out each time?
22:05:43 <supermop> non timetabled vehicles just drive at whatever they can
22:06:06 <supermop> but the skip a round would be a life saver for trams
22:06:19 <frosch123> sounds equivalent to "add x% time to all auto-filled timetable entries"
22:06:38 <supermop> frosch123: but for speed
22:06:58 <frosch123> why would you want to let vehicles drive slower?
22:07:09 <frosch123> if they could also load during that time
22:07:43 <Eddi|zuHause> to save energy on acceleration :p
22:08:07 <peter1138> frosch123, it seems you can, though
22:08:18 <frosch123> yes, michi_cc added that iirc
22:08:20 <peter1138> "Change Speed Limit" in timetables is there
22:08:27 <peter1138> so somebody thought it was useful
22:08:28 <supermop> if several lines share a tram stop, i might not want an early tram from line 1 to show up too soon and block a late tram from line 2?
22:08:41 <frosch123> i don't think i used it a single time :)
22:08:49 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: do you guys have a term for 'turns' like brits do in their rail parlance?
22:09:04 <supermop> like 'this train is working this turn"?
22:09:18 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know what you mean
22:09:24 * frosch123 should make a list of unused ottd features to remove. then compare that list to andy's
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22:10:02 <supermop> like there is a concept of a 'working' or service or whatever - lets say Edinburgh - York - London
22:10:11 <supermop> that leaves at 14:00 or whatever
22:10:35 <peter1138> let's just play TTD
22:10:39 <supermop> that's kind of separate from the concept of a physical train - "train 1" or whatever
22:11:03 <supermop> if train 1 is all fucked, you could ask train 2 to work that service
22:11:19 <frosch123> we call it "linie" (line)
22:11:20 <supermop> even if every other day train 1 does it
22:11:37 <frosch123> it's like in simutrans
22:11:48 <frosch123> there you create "order lists" and assign vehicles to them
22:12:16 <supermop> so maybe tram 4 runs the 13:30 service to Wherever Heights
22:12:18 <peter1138> vehicles should use "i'm early" time to get serviced :p
22:12:54 <supermop> but its so late that it wont be able to start until 14:30, meanwhile tram 5 is sitting there with nothing to do
22:13:02 <Eddi|zuHause> there's usually an "Umlauf", meaning if you have a schedule that takes 3 hours one way, and goes every 2 hours, then you assign one train to take trips 1,4,7 one train takes 2,5,8 and one train takes 3,6
22:13:07 <supermop> then let tram 4 and 5 swap runs
22:14:19 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know any more details than that
22:16:08 <frosch123> i think the majority of trains just service the same route in both directions
22:16:30 <frosch123> it's obvious on regional trains
22:16:40 <frosch123> but it does not appear to be different for ice
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22:16:53 <Eddi|zuHause> in our local tram system, occasionally two lines are connected
22:17:07 <michi_cc> peter1138: There was an attempt to make a railtype GRF with like 10 mph speed limit increments, which I found a bit too silly.
22:17:21 <Eddi|zuHause> so if you have line 1 going A-B and line 2 going A-C, you have one tram going A-B-A-C-A-B-...
22:17:36 <peter1138> was that the guy asking the other day?
22:17:47 <peter1138> wanted 32 rail types...
22:17:47 <frosch123> can we add a weight limit to timetables?
22:18:36 <frosch123> why do you hate scrollable dropdowns?
22:19:07 <frosch123> peter1138: sorry, i just cannot imagine a gui for 32 railtypes
22:19:15 <frosch123> andy coimplains about the station gui all the time
22:19:41 <frosch123> i don't think a dropdown with 32 items fits on his screen
22:19:57 <peter1138> that's because he has a super retina display and runs at 4x * 2x * 8x or something
22:23:20 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, problem with ignoring the timetable speed limit is you don't know when you are back on schedule again until the next stop
22:23:51 <peter1138> then it ends up being early and hogs a station slot
22:24:03 <peter1138> (not that that doesn't happen anyway)
22:24:59 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that is a problem of the timetables being a bit crude
22:25:18 <Eddi|zuHause> you could work around that by placing more waypoints
22:26:26 <Eddi|zuHause> currently, waypoints are a bit useless for timetabling, because they only tell you how early/late you are, but can't be used to balance that out
22:27:11 <peter1138> can't stop at them i suppose
22:28:22 <Eddi|zuHause> allowing slowdown or speedup would help with that
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23:17:44 <supermop> new property for buses for probability of passengers getting sick
23:24:37 <Samu> gonna check if this is working as intended, brb
23:28:11 <peter1138> enhanced viewport looks cool... and bit... and probably buggy :p
23:29:31 <Samu> perhaps i don't need to compute the reversed distance, since I'm not gonna reverse
23:32:19 <Samu> gonna experiment without it
23:33:45 <DorpsGek> Commit by peter1138 :: r27837 trunk/src/blitter/8bpp_simple.cpp (2017-03-30 23:33:40 +0200 )
23:33:46 <DorpsGek> -Fix (r26969): Black remap did nothing in 8bpp-simple blitter.
23:37:33 <peter1138> too much in one patch though
23:37:43 <peter1138> industry tool tips etc
23:43:33 <Wolf01> It's the compatibility link between tram and water
23:48:23 <peter1138> ctrl-click... no separation hmm.
23:51:37 <Samu> damn it, i'm dealing with too many distances, grrr
continue to next day ⏵
