IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-03-25
⏴ go to previous day
00:09:55 *** Maarten has joined #openttd
00:23:58 <Samu_> well, think i'm done, have to clean up the code mess I've made, too experimental, but i kinda like the outcome of this
00:24:38 <Samu_> it's not perfect though, it just disguises part of the weirdness just so that rivers are connectable with locks from start to end
00:25:26 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 has joined #openttd
00:30:22 *** Hiddenfunstuff has quit IRC
00:39:41 <Samu_> i have many stuff repeating, how can I make it better? halp
00:41:46 <Samu_> what i want to do is... how do I append TileIndexes so that I don't repeat MakeRiver and CircularTileSearch every time
00:46:11 <Samu_> line 25 should be t = path->node.tile - delta;
01:18:18 <supermop_home> alright peter1138, now its yamazaki and soda time
01:21:02 *** Maarten has joined #openttd
01:34:23 <Samu_> or are you in bed already
01:35:16 <peter1138> looks like flood plains everywhere
01:38:07 <Samu_> those town bridges can still ruin placement of locks
01:39:39 <Samu_> flood plains, hmm, i see that it makes many lakes now
01:40:12 <Samu_> rivers that don't go to ocean
01:40:25 <peter1138> that's why you want carving
01:40:39 <peter1138> preferably with sweeping curves
01:40:54 <peter1138> if it was easy someone else would've already done it
01:45:47 <supermop_home> rainfall river generator
01:52:27 <supermop_home> Samu_ the rivers look bad to us, but my wife just walked in here and said "well that's what rivers do" so I think it is a matter of expectation
01:54:40 <Samu_> i can disable lakes, but this would make mountainous terran quite impossible to generate rivers
01:55:18 <Samu_> without lakes, all rivers that get generates will lead to ocean
01:56:14 <Samu_> or, i can make lakes larger, but they look like big squares
01:56:33 <Samu_> flood plains would become more flooded
01:57:06 <Samu_> or leave it like it is right now, rivers leading to nowhere
01:57:53 <Samu_> part of the problem is still the issue of compatibility with locks
02:46:15 *** Supercheese has joined #openttd
03:01:16 <DorpsGek> Supercheese: Commit by peter1138 :: r27822 /trunk/src (6 files in 4 dirs) (2017-03-24 08:33:31 +0100 )
03:01:17 <DorpsGek> Supercheese: -Feature: Vehicle Group Info: Add profits and occupancy display to group vehicle list (mtm, JGR)
03:01:38 <Supercheese> "occupancy display"
03:02:07 <Supercheese> Is that "percentage of the total vehicles of this type that belong to this group"?
03:04:13 <Supercheese> Still slightly confused, but ok
03:05:28 *** a_sad_dude has joined #openttd
03:08:01 *** Ethereal_Whisper has joined #openttd
04:12:01 <dlite> if I have a wagon full of goods and I set it to refit at certain station to some other cargo type, will it unload the goods or will the goods be destroyed?
04:14:35 <Supercheese> you'd best unload the goods before you refit
04:19:20 <dlite> getting a vehicle to "transfer and take cargo with refit" was a bit unintuitive
04:19:27 <dlite> but seems to do what I want
05:21:56 *** Maarten has joined #openttd
05:42:58 *** Ethereal_Whisper has quit IRC
05:44:28 *** Maarten has joined #openttd
06:07:23 *** SimYouLater has joined #openttd
06:09:46 <SimYouLater> Hey, I'm still having trouble with the specs of ships for blueFISH. I'll start with the speed. My test vehicle is supposed to have an ocean top speed of 18 km/h. Instead it has an ocean speed of 20 km/h. ocean_speed_fraction is set to 1.
06:10:04 <SimYouLater> Could I get some assistance?
06:42:21 *** Alberth has joined #openttd
06:42:21 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
07:18:13 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
07:37:07 <Alberth> great IH, I started upgrading to diesel (Chinooks) with 55t wagons, number of trains isn't decreasing much, but they get shorter
07:37:31 <andythenorth> it doesn’t quite match up though :)
07:37:44 <andythenorth> the chinook is longer than the steam engine it replaces
07:38:18 <Alberth> ah, yes, could be, I remove the existing trains completely, as I change the wagons too
07:38:35 <andythenorth> IH will be having a few tweaks ;)
07:38:39 <andythenorth> is shorter better?
07:38:52 <Alberth> also, I "discovered" refit at station :p
07:40:01 <Alberth> not sure if shorter is better or not, my stations are way too long for my trains, so it doesn't make any difference
07:40:17 <Alberth> platforms are 5 or 6, trains around 4
07:40:44 <andythenorth> yeah I get about the same
07:41:08 <Alberth> I had more 30t wagons, but they are shorter, so total length isn't that much different
07:41:26 <andythenorth> ‘refit at station’ is a winning tactic
07:41:49 <andythenorth> I almost think that that the old refit button should be removed, although it’s more obvious to players
07:42:00 <Alberth> power is a bit less, I think, chinook is a bit slower, but it carries more cargo, at 6x freight multiply
07:43:14 *** sim-al2 is now known as Guest1240
07:43:16 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd
07:43:55 <Alberth> depends perhaps, you can limit refit capabilities heavily if you want
07:44:23 <andythenorth> also station refit can’t do subtypes
07:44:38 <Alberth> some more realistic sets likely have very limited refit capabilities, or eg nuts has none
07:44:55 <Alberth> nor does default set :)
07:46:37 <Alberth> I am not used to having refit available :)
07:47:28 <Alberth> orders with refit are a bit magic though, took a few attempts before I got it right
07:48:32 <andythenorth> occasionally they are buggy
07:49:01 <andythenorth> sometimes first time a train arrives at station, it just doesn’t refit
07:49:17 <andythenorth> all vehicles on same shared orders will do same thing
07:53:59 *** Progman has joined #openttd
07:56:18 <Alberth> indeed, I had to force it at first with "full load" :)
07:59:17 <andythenorth> sometimes running the route does it
07:59:30 <andythenorth> I suspect it’s an interaction with cdist and vehicle reservations
08:02:48 <peter1138> Supercheese, "how full they are"
08:03:25 <Supercheese> yeah, looks like it
08:07:25 <peter1138> More useful for passengers/mail than other cargo
08:23:29 <andythenorth> 9 trees, like default forest? Instead of 4?
08:57:23 <Alberth> dense looks better imho
09:04:25 <andythenorth> now I have to have two lots of magic :)
09:13:26 * andythenorth wonders about other industries with trees
09:25:42 <Alberth> vineyard doesn't have many tress, does it?
09:26:10 <peter1138> Only if it's mismanaged
09:26:18 <andythenorth> I should probably draw vines
09:26:32 <andythenorth> I have never drawn any trees or organic stuff :P
09:26:42 <Alberth> lines of smaller bushes, mostly
09:26:48 <andythenorth> grapes don’t come from cows :P
09:27:51 <Alberth> it does look pretty, if you ignore its function, though
09:28:37 <Alberth> :o textile mill only in extreme?
09:28:57 <andythenorth> vineyard would be better as farm fields
09:29:03 <andythenorth> newgrf fields anyone? o_O
09:29:37 <Alberth> there are more industries for extreme-only :o
09:30:16 <Alberth> newgrf fields would be really nice, wouldn't it
09:30:41 <Alberth> they do tend to get slaughtered by crossing rail-tracks though
09:32:29 <andythenorth> but somehow it probably doesn’t matter
09:32:37 <andythenorth> never bothers me for farms at least
09:33:13 <andythenorth> sheep farm, for example, would be much better if surrounded by fields of sheep
09:35:30 <peter1138> is newgrf fields not a thing?
09:39:53 <peter1138> what was wrong with it 7 years ago?
09:40:01 <andythenorth> can’t remember :P
09:40:06 <andythenorth> frosch might remember
09:40:24 <andythenorth> also chores, biab
09:46:52 *** Hiddenfunstuff has joined #openttd
10:23:06 *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd
10:23:06 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir
10:23:45 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd
10:57:51 *** Biolunar has joined #openttd
11:05:46 *** gelignite has joined #openttd
11:17:07 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
11:18:13 <andythenorth> uniform forest trees, or 2 tiles, mixed up?
11:18:19 <andythenorth> and should I put more machinery or tracks in?
11:19:00 <andythenorth> and should I spend the next 2 days animating tree cutting and growth, with random triggers :P
11:24:22 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the repeating pattern is too strong, you should only use one type of tree
11:25:25 <Eddi|zuHause> or have a lot mmore randomness
11:28:09 <Samu> there is no single ai prepared to build routes on rivers
11:28:37 <Samu> there's also a bug with getting the closest ship depot
11:28:54 <Wolf01> Let him sleep, is saturday
11:29:05 *** Biolunar has joined #openttd
11:29:08 <Samu> he went to bed earlier than me
11:31:24 <Samu> dictator ai doesn't know that it has to build locks to move ships on inclined slopes
11:31:40 <Samu> shipai doesn't build on rivers at all, only at sea
11:33:17 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: one tree might be better, like default game
11:34:35 <andythenorth> or the whole thing has to be much more random
11:34:45 <andythenorth> with paths and machines and so on
11:34:59 <Wolf01> Can't you just randomize tree bits?
11:35:22 <andythenorth> it’s base set trees
11:36:09 <Wolf01> IMO, all the forests should work like tropical ones
11:36:17 <Wolf01> With actual trees on the map
11:36:52 <Wolf01> So they will be randomized by the game itself, and you can even plant more to "fix" the production
11:40:31 <andythenorth> I have considered it many timews
11:40:35 <andythenorth> but planting trees is boring
11:40:56 <Wolf01> Make the forest plant them by itself
11:41:38 <Wolf01> As soon as the sawmill cuts a tile, it should already prepare the new saplings
11:43:49 <andythenorth> animated fields would be better for that ;)
11:44:12 <Wolf01> Yeah, make a sawmill like a farm :P
11:44:38 <andythenorth> newgrf fields...
11:44:42 <Wolf01> Also, do farms decrease production if I remove fields?
11:45:24 <Wolf01> Samu, go and implement that XD
11:45:34 <Eddi|zuHause> the fields know which industry they belong to, but the industry does not know about fields
11:45:51 <andythenorth> ah maybe that was why the patch failed
11:46:04 <andythenorth> I think frosch got stuck removing fields from closed industries
11:47:05 <Eddi|zuHause> that already works, but it is done in the tileloop, so there is a short timeframe where the fields still exist, but do not know what to draw because the industry is gone
11:48:33 <andythenorth> so they lose their reference?
11:48:45 <andythenorth> which means fields would need to be a type of tile, with their own storage?
11:49:03 <andythenorth> I think the patch relied on them being able to make a callback against the industry
11:49:19 <Eddi|zuHause> they have storage
11:49:27 <Eddi|zuHause> but not enough, probably
11:49:51 <Wolf01> Also industries should have a tile_field_counter to use in production calculation, and when a tile gets destroyed or created should increment or decrement the counter
11:49:53 <andythenorth> and in default game, it’s just a flag, and the game knows what to draw?
11:50:16 <Eddi|zuHause> the default fields have only like 4 states
11:50:35 <Eddi|zuHause> the states are stored in the tile
11:51:23 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe it could be "solved" by just demanding the newgrf coder to prepare for this case
11:52:49 <Eddi|zuHause> field tiles would get their own newgrf type independent from industry (tile), and then you declare that their PARENT (industry) might not always exist (i.e. industry shut down)
11:53:20 <Eddi|zuHause> they would then behave like objects
11:53:41 <Eddi|zuHause> just the industry places them instead of the player
11:54:57 <Eddi|zuHause> fields, plantations, forests, power lines, ...
12:01:12 <andythenorth> that seems the most viable route
12:01:39 <andythenorth> there would be a cb on the industry when objects are being built, and it would return layouts
12:01:58 <andythenorth> which are IDs of objects provided by the newgrf
12:02:29 <andythenorth> although it seems appealing to make the objects reflect things like industry production, I think it’s unhelpful and unnecessary
12:13:06 <Samu> hmm buoys can prevent oil rigs from spawning
12:14:51 <andythenorth> that’s correct, no?
12:16:11 <Samu> they're placed on water, but then it's no longer a water tile
12:17:02 <Samu> when it checks for water to place an oil rig, a single buoy can prevent it from spawning
12:17:21 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd
12:20:53 <Eddi|zuHause> well, there are a few corner cases to consider
12:21:10 <Eddi|zuHause> like what happens when the game builds a new industry that happens to get the old ID
12:21:26 <Samu> GFX_WATERTILE_SPECIALCHECK
12:22:40 <Samu> if (gfx == GFX_WATERTILE_SPECIALCHECK) { if (!IsTileType(cur_tile, MP_WATER) || !IsTileFlat(cur_tile)) { return_cmd_error(STR_ERROR_SITE_UNSUITABLE); }
12:23:06 <Samu> ah, it seems that it can build on depots after all
12:23:19 <Samu> buoys are station tile type
12:23:53 * andythenorth wonders if there’s any way to create virtual industry, off the map, run the cb chain, then destroy it
12:24:02 <andythenorth> then just the type is needed, not the instance ID
12:24:28 <andythenorth> fields should behave generically, per the industry type, not per the instance
12:25:38 <andythenorth> hmm, where is the tree stump sprite
12:26:30 <andythenorth> maybe pikka drew that
12:33:20 *** chomwitt has joined #openttd
12:34:56 <Samu> t.t no single ai making good use of rivers
12:35:11 <Samu> some try, but fail miserably :(, they don't know they got to build locks
12:46:40 <andythenorth> ach, needs animated tree cutting + regrowth
12:46:57 <andythenorth> so not minded to do that :P
12:47:22 <andythenorth> also I think it needs 2 tiles for the equipment, one of them featuring logs
12:52:28 <andythenorth> why did I include forests that are just 3x3?
12:52:33 <andythenorth> they look daft :P
12:52:59 <Eddi|zuHause> because last time you were worried that industries have too large footprint and can't be placed properly
12:56:31 <andythenorth> I think I overshot :P
12:57:15 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd
13:11:52 <frosch123> the old one had some quirks, and when newobjects were added, this new spec was started on top of that
13:21:24 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27827 trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp (2017-03-25 13:21:17 +0100 )
13:21:25 <DorpsGek> -Codechange (r27819): Deduplicate code. (adf88)
13:30:42 <Wolf01> I need to discover that truck chassis to make a road train :(
13:32:33 <andythenorth> frosch123: is influence on cargo production needed / wise? o_O
13:34:50 <andythenorth> OS X thinks one of FIRS pngs is an app
13:34:56 <andythenorth> maybe it is? o_O
13:35:35 <Eddi|zuHause> sounds like phishing mail trojans...
13:36:51 <andythenorth> maybe it’s a binary masquerading as a png
13:46:39 <Wolf01> HA! Got lost again, managed to find the way home, along the trip I found another researchable object and... it unlocked the truck \o/
13:48:32 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd
14:09:43 <supermop_home> damn I had a dream that andy redrew all my roadtype sprites to make them look better
14:10:26 <andythenorth> I had a dream that newest photoshop isn’t broken
14:13:11 *** Alberth has joined #openttd
14:13:11 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
14:13:45 <andythenorth> crashes, all the defaults are wrong, seems to not embed palette for 8bpp save for web
14:14:04 <LordAro> hmm. `bool a; int b; a != (b < 0);` vs `bool a; int b; a ? b < 0 : b >= 0;` ?
14:14:44 <frosch123> i usually do the former
14:14:55 <andythenorth> so is there a tree stump in the base set?
14:14:58 <andythenorth> or did I imagine it?
14:15:12 <supermop_home> sure there was in tto
14:15:12 <frosch123> default forest has growth stages
14:16:31 <andythenorth> ah maybe it’s in the forest sprites
14:16:56 <frosch123> there are also dead trees
14:17:06 <frosch123> maybe one of them looks like a stump
14:17:28 <andythenorth> I used some of them already :)
14:17:46 <Samu> crap, i posted a patch that fails
14:19:25 <Samu> i don't understand bools yet
14:21:15 <andythenorth> peter1138: fields such ^^^^^^^^^
14:22:19 <frosch123> "should be planted at the end of spring only" <- i forgot my last test included ecs wood vector
14:23:03 <supermop_home> kept up with the talisker huh?
14:23:15 <peter1138> no just got back from 64 miles
14:23:38 <peter1138> 64 miles, 2500 feet and 16.1mph avg
14:23:42 <supermop_home> hopefully on bike, not foot]
14:23:58 <peter1138> one of those headwinds that seems to follow :S
14:24:42 <andythenorth> nice day though eh?
14:26:14 <Alberth> clearly you're biking too fast :)
14:26:22 <frosch123> hmm, no stumps, just small trees
14:26:40 <Samu> !IsTileType(cur_tile, MP_WATER) && !IsBuoyTile(cur_tile)
14:26:40 <Alberth> retina screen, close enough :p
14:27:15 <LordAro> peter1138: ooh, very nice
14:27:50 <LordAro> frosch123: how about a line like return _engine_sort_direction != !(va < vb);
14:28:09 <andythenorth> stumps are in the forest sprite, they are in a 3x3 grid
14:29:33 <peter1138> that's always useful :p
14:29:35 <Samu> it was not a ||, but a &&
14:30:55 <frosch123> LordAro: in C sometimes i have to write "!(a) != !(b)", where the "!" are used to convert integers to bools
14:31:17 <frosch123> i add a comment about that though :p
14:31:17 <Wolf01> Samu, also pay attention to parenthesis when doing boolean operations
14:31:40 <peter1138> I often see "if (!(a == b))" in patches
14:32:18 <Milek7> frosch123: cast to bool?
14:32:32 <frosch123> "if (a) { return true; } else { return false; }" is another classic :)
14:32:39 <frosch123> Milek7: C does not have bools
14:32:42 <frosch123> it only has integers
14:32:52 <Samu> if (!IsTileType(cur_tile, MP_WATER) && !IsBuoyTile(cur_tile) || !IsTileFlat(cur_tile)) { return_cmd_error(STR_ERROR_SITE_UNSUITABLE); }
14:33:14 <frosch123> and various fancy things may use other values than 1 for true
14:33:15 <Wolf01> Depends on the result tou want
14:33:31 <frosch123> so, comparing "bools" in C is dangerious, since "true == true" may not hold
14:34:09 <andythenorth> forests with gaps in - delete that layout?
14:34:20 <frosch123> andythenorth: pikka would be sad :p
14:34:29 <andythenorth> he can tell me by DM :P
14:34:35 <Samu> is not water and is not buoy or is not flat
14:34:35 <andythenorth> he’s busy with ideas
14:34:54 <Samu> (is not water and is not buoy) or is not flat
14:35:13 <LordAro> frosch123: this patch is getting to be rather bigger than i expected
14:35:50 <LordAro> no, i decided i'd try getting rid of [QG]SortT
14:36:02 <Alberth> Samu: (not water and not buoy) or not flat vs not water and (not buoy or not flat) ?
14:36:36 <Samu> i want it to do "(is not water and is not buoy) or is not flat"
14:36:46 <Samu> does it require parentesis?
14:36:47 <frosch123> LordAro: would you like to learn about docker?
14:36:54 <peter1138> always use parenthesis if you mix && and ||
14:37:08 <Alberth> Samu: for the compiler no, for human beings yes
14:37:10 <peter1138> or, as we call them, brackets
14:37:12 <Samu> bah, i didn't use, because... it was working
14:37:14 <Wolf01> Samu, no, it doesn't, but for better uderstandability
14:37:38 <Wolf01> Samu, it's like "a * b + c"
14:37:50 <LordAro> frosch123: i have some knowledge of what docker is, never used it myself though. why?
14:38:16 <frosch123> so you can finish TrueBrain starts of a compile farm with compilers which are not older than 10 years
14:38:55 <LordAro> i can think of worse things to do
14:39:17 <LordAro> you'd have to wait a few months before i actually graduate and have "some" spare time
14:39:26 <frosch123> unless we get a new compile farm, all attempts to move to c++11/14/17 are meaningless
14:39:49 <frosch123> LordAro: sad, you do not have free time after graduation
14:40:15 <frosch123> i started on ottd during my graduation, because it was too boring to do graduation stuff all day
14:42:07 <andythenorth> I spent most of my degree learning fun things, nothing to do with the degree
14:44:15 <LordAro> program that long predates me :)
14:44:33 <Milek7> some people write code like "if (2 == something)", it drives me crazy
14:45:09 <peter1138> and i am aware of the good reason for it
14:45:25 <LordAro> peter1138: "i don't turn on my compiler warning flags" ?
14:47:14 <Wolf01> <Milek7> some people write code like "if (2 == something)", it drives me crazy <- that's to avoid to do "if (something = 2)"
14:47:29 <frosch123> andythenorth: looks nice :)
14:47:43 <Wolf01> The result of that condition is "yes"
14:48:56 * andythenorth doing the snow now
14:49:14 <andythenorth> snow under trees?
14:49:41 <peter1138> they are quite dense
14:50:01 <peter1138> mind you it could drift there
14:50:33 <frosch123> Milek7: there are secure coding guidelines like CERT. they have a particular section about "portability", which is essentially a collection of compiler bugs from compilers of the past 40 years
14:51:31 <supermop_home> needs at least some snow on the dirt
14:51:32 <Samu> how do i avoid repetition
14:51:51 <Samu> MakeRiver and CircularTileSearch is being repeated
14:51:53 <Alberth> andythenorth: looks nice, south trees are best for cutting obviously :p
14:52:41 <andythenorth> supermop: I can’t find a partial-snow dirt tile
14:52:45 <andythenorth> and I cba to draw one
14:52:56 <frosch123> if you want to make it realistic, add big piles of small branches
14:53:06 <Samu> I want to collect all the tiles that need to do MakeRiver + CircularTileSearch
14:53:17 <Samu> then send them all into a for loop
14:53:56 <frosch123> (that's a trap comment, noone would want to make it realisitic)
14:54:28 <Alberth> cutting a few trees once every 50 years :p
14:55:14 * andythenorth might have the wrong sprite number
14:55:51 <frosch123> deliver wood, plant trees in the desert, desert kills trees, repeat?
14:56:28 <Alberth> I thought lumber mills killed trees
14:57:08 <andythenorth> ‘failing plantation’
15:04:14 <Samu> isn't it possible to avoid repetition?
15:04:20 *** FLHerne_ has joined #openttd
15:08:51 <peter1138> yeah i mean who'll even see it
15:09:24 <andythenorth> if a tree falls in a FIRS forest....
15:10:12 <peter1138> industries have sound effects right?
15:10:38 <Wolf01> Eddi, wtf are you on steam?
15:11:50 <argoneus> good afternoon train friends
15:12:15 <Wolf01> Oh, you got the time right :D
15:13:48 <andythenorth> peter1138: I never got as far as sound effects :P
15:15:09 <andythenorth> is the tropic forest too uniform?
15:15:20 <andythenorth> I could piss around making it more varied
15:16:47 <Wolf01> I figured out the most worrying image
15:22:02 <Wolf01> Big cat pissing around the forest to make yellow trees variant
15:26:32 <Samu> who's the pathfinder expert? was it Alberth
15:26:41 <Samu> or alberth is gui expert
15:26:48 <Alberth> tropic doesn't strike me as a good idea for planting forests :p
15:27:14 <Samu> there are no forests on that tileset
15:27:21 <andythenorth> it is what it is :P
15:29:09 <Samu> need help on sending ships to the closest (but reachable) ship depot, peter1138 did you do something about it? i'd like to solve this
15:29:21 <Alberth> samu isn't trying to change a found path too late in the process? I'd expect you want to influence how it finds a path
15:30:23 <supermop_home> a lot of lumber - legal and otherwise - comes from tropic areas
15:31:23 <supermop_home> if you want a more morally acceptable alternative, a bamboo plantation in tropic would be equivalent
15:32:13 <supermop_home> drawing a bamboo stalk as a tree would be a pain though
15:32:35 <Samu> oh, about the rivers patch, well, i like it how it is right now, it's not perfect though, but at least it's something acceptable in my eyes
15:33:08 <Samu> the coding is probably crap
15:33:18 <Samu> could be improved, but meh... it works
15:35:10 <Samu> my current issues with water that I'm still trying to deal with is... sending ships to the closest ship depot, probably locks under bridges, especially town bridges
15:35:36 <supermop_home> Samu, have you looked at the rainfall river generator patch?
15:36:21 <supermop_home> it a hydrological model based terrain/river generator
15:36:52 <supermop_home> it seeks to make the hills and valleys based on the flow of water rather than the other way around
15:40:04 <Samu> oh, those look quite realistic
15:40:53 <supermop_home> tbh that's less important to me than non-stupid looking rivers and valleys
15:42:10 <supermop_home> bowl shaped craters and depressions with no exit are fairly rare, but seem to comprise the majority of valleys in openttd
15:42:49 <Samu> i rather have locks connect
15:43:10 <supermop_home> beyond annoying me from a geological perspective, it makes building rail, river or road transit that follows valleys a pain
15:43:41 <supermop_home> Samu if the downstream areas are wide, its is plenty easy to build locks
15:44:06 <supermop_home> rather I see no need to enforce easy lock placement in high alpine streams near the source
15:44:52 <Alberth> but those skiing tourists!
15:44:59 <Samu> i downloaded rivers_v11.zip, this thing is made of 50 patches? ugh, how do i patch them
15:45:11 <Samu> i thought there would be 1 file
15:45:39 <supermop_home> even at St. Louis, the historic center of barge shipping on the Mississippi, they had to build a length of canal to get around the rapids
15:46:23 <supermop_home> (that's what made St. louis important, besides the confluence - before the canal, all goods had to be transshipped there)
15:47:00 <Alberth> likely it got that position as they were the first to make a canal :)
15:47:46 <supermop_home> see canal and lock just 'below' the river
15:48:37 <frosch123> andythenorth: +1 to making forest not as rectangular as plantations
15:48:58 <andythenorth> hmm, I made them more rectangular earlier :)
15:50:03 <frosch123> i guess V would put the whole forest on a belt: trees are planted in the front, grow along the moving belt, and are cut at the end
15:50:18 <andythenorth> that is a good idea
15:50:21 <Wolf01> Put the camp in the middle and a muddy path towards one side?
15:50:42 <andythenorth> Wolf01: it probably would look better with a path through it
15:50:58 <Alberth> supermop_home: ah, right, I see it now
15:51:41 <Samu> screw this, i don't know how to patch
15:51:45 <Alberth> that needs nrt, so you can drive a tram through the woods :)
15:51:50 <Samu> why didn't he make 1 single patch file
15:52:22 <Alberth> because there are a lot of small steps involved in making something as big as that
15:52:52 <Alberth> you saw how many commits I made from your aircraft display patch?
15:52:59 <supermop_home> before that was built in the 40s, shipping was either transfered at st. louis, or had to wait for a lot of rain to raise the water level over the rocks
15:53:09 <Samu> yes, i dunno why it has to be done like that
15:53:27 <Alberth> one elementary change in one commit
15:53:46 <Alberth> makes it simpler to find an error if one is made
15:54:37 <Alberth> likely the rainfall patch was made with mercurial MQ, a system to manage a stack of patches
15:54:44 <supermop_home> Samu you'd never get something huge that changes rivers, mountains, and town placement, and adds many more settings into trunk
15:55:21 <supermop_home> probably each change would have to be reviewed and added on its own
15:56:21 <Samu> for me it makes it more complex
15:56:21 <Alberth> throwing it all on one big heap makes that nobody is going to understand how it changed the code
15:56:58 <supermop_home> Samumore than one person has to read and understand it
15:57:36 <supermop_home> if it is in small bits, it is easier for a stranger to check that each piece does not cause a problem
15:58:59 <Samu> i dont know which order i have to apply them
15:59:19 <Samu> i dont even know if they can be patched in a given order
15:59:42 <Samu> some features don't make sense alone, so i just end up doing both
16:02:27 <Samu> those screenshots look awesome
16:02:35 <Samu> but i notice they're not lock-friendly
16:03:07 <supermop_home> how do you mean?
16:03:31 <Samu> double inclined slopes for example
16:04:38 <Alberth> the 'series' file gives the order
16:04:55 <supermop_home> not every river, or every part of a given river, is easy to engineer for navigation
16:07:16 <andythenorth> should be for gameplay though
16:07:33 <supermop_home> i'm not sure about that
16:07:51 <supermop_home> i agree that some rivers should, and that downstream areas should
16:08:42 <supermop_home> but players sending panamax ships to mountain tops without placing a single tile of canal seems a little dumb to me
16:11:16 <supermop_home> I think their is value in a map having a mix of 1) navigable rivers 2)rivers that are easy to make navigable, & 3) rivers probably not worth making navigable
16:12:16 <supermop_home> but if you already have code for making rivers more lock friendly Samu, you should try to integrate it with RRG if you want
16:12:42 <Samu> i'd have to understand his code
16:12:52 <Samu> don't even know how to patch
16:12:52 *** nekomaster has joined #openttd
16:13:28 <nekomaster> I dunno how to patch stuff in Windows
16:13:49 <Samu> i use tortoise svn, right click - apply patch, select trunk folder
16:14:25 <supermop_home> not saying you have to use it, just you've been talking about river code, and making them more 'flowy' fore lack of better word, so i thought that fork might be helpful to you
16:15:22 <Samu> when i have multiple patches selected, tortoisesvn doesn't list Apply Patch...
16:16:56 <Samu> oh well, i kinda like what i've done though, it's not realistic at all though
16:17:59 <Samu> for gameplay intentions, it's wide
16:18:20 <Samu> might allow 90 degree at times
16:18:23 <supermop_home> you might want to look at having your rivers carve the land a bit though
16:18:42 <supermop_home> so they don't get stuck by landscape at times
16:19:07 <Samu> that's something I don't know how
16:19:20 <supermop_home> rrg does it though
16:19:35 <nekomaster> I'm thinking of maybe trying to make a North American road vehicle set, but I dunno how I should go about things
16:20:22 <supermop_home> nekomaster: find a gpl rv set and steal its code
16:20:34 <Samu> there is no terraforming involved at all :(
16:20:38 <nekomaster> I know, but the other part is how I should go about doing things with vehicles
16:20:55 <supermop_home> build them in depot and give them orders?
16:21:12 <nekomaster> I mean what to include and what not
16:21:28 <Samu> pathfinder finds a route, and contours the terrain to reach the destination, never terraforms
16:22:05 <Samu> once found, it starts building the river. It plans it in 1-tile-wide
16:22:20 <Samu> i enlarged it to become 3-tile-wides while constructing it
16:22:51 <supermop_home> nekomaster: being too comprehensive if probably boring
16:23:07 *** Darksecond has joined #openttd
16:23:15 <nekomaster> I don't want to add every single truck from North America
16:24:03 <nekomaster> I'm thinking of going a Semi-Generic route where capacities and specs will benifit gameplay but designs of vehicles will be based on real life american vehicles
16:24:06 <nekomaster> or stuff used in America
16:25:07 <Samu> dont know how the river is generated in rainfall river gen, does it take an image and then convert it into a heightmap with extra water tiles?
16:28:50 <nekomaster> Though if I go with a Semi-Generic route then I'll also have to make up fictional names/companies and set up generations of vehicles
16:30:53 *** silentcontrib has joined #openttd
16:32:15 <andythenorth> nekomaster: did you get a compile working?
16:32:24 <nekomaster> Nope, still the same error as before
16:32:37 <Samu> it really is computer generated
16:32:46 <nekomaster> As I said before I'm on Windows 10 using Subsystem for Linux way of compiling NML
16:32:57 *** Darkfirst has joined #openttd
16:33:52 <andythenorth> there must be a way to install python packages on windows
16:33:57 <andythenorth> it can’t be that cripplied
16:34:21 <nekomaster> Well Subsystem for linux basically downloads a copy of ubuntu
16:34:32 <nekomaster> and provides terminal/bash from Ubuntu
16:34:58 <nekomaster> thats how I had to install python and gcc
16:35:19 <nekomaster> Thats what I'm working with
16:36:09 <Alberth> so what's failing, still cpp?
16:36:37 <andythenorth> needs the python deps
16:36:51 <andythenorth> optionally, graphviz
16:37:05 <nekomaster> it says I have chameleon but then says it can't find the module chameleon
16:37:18 <Alberth> there are several chameleons :p
16:38:22 <Alberth> yeah, something like that :p
16:38:51 <nekomaster> Mind you, anything that works in terminal for linux should work with what i have
16:39:08 <nekomaster> Or I should say, anything that works in Ubuntu's Terminal/bash shell
16:40:48 <Alberth> I am just not that good with package stuff in debian/ubuntu, so it's a puzzle what to use
16:41:19 <nekomaster> I would set things up for Windows again with stuff like mingw, but that was a lot of work getting that all set up last time
16:41:38 <nekomaster> why can't things be easy
16:43:50 <Alberth> mingw is a mess too, more than bash shell, imho
16:44:03 <Alberth> it is easy, you just need to know how it works
16:44:30 <nekomaster> I'm just not use to dealing with complicated things
16:44:48 <nekomaster> maybe its my ADHD or something else but sometimes complex things just go over my head
16:45:06 <nekomaster> thats why for the longest time I avoided even trying to learn NML because I couldn't understand anything
16:49:15 <Alberth> andythenorth: what python does it need?
16:49:51 <nekomaster> i have no idea whats going on here
16:50:27 <Alberth> indeed, that's the other chameleon
16:51:06 <nekomaster> my brain is overheating trying to understand that
16:52:35 <Alberth> there are 2 packages with "chameleon" in the name, and they're not related at all, other than both being a template expand engine :)
16:53:13 <Alberth> I guess the simple test would be to install the other chameleon too, and see what happens
16:53:49 <Alberth> only problem is that firs may use python3, and that other chameleon is for python2, so it may fail
16:54:04 <nekomaster> Yeah, andy said I need Python 3 which I do have
16:54:28 <Alberth> ah, ok, no point in installing the python2 package thus, ok
16:54:49 <Alberth> do you know the name of the ubuntu version? trusty, or xenial, or ?
16:57:26 <nekomaster> is that a good great or a sarcastic great?
16:59:19 <andythenorth> Alberth: needs 3.4 or 3.5 or so
17:00:45 <Alberth> good great, it narrows the search
17:00:57 <andythenorth> whatever happened to “virtualenv -p=python3”, the “pip install [module]”
17:01:03 <andythenorth> is that not a thing on windows?
17:01:26 <Alberth> nekomaster is basically on ubuntu (ie linux)
17:01:43 <Alberth> but with a 'stable' distribution
17:02:03 <Alberth> there is no python3 pyramid chameleon for trusty, it seems
17:02:25 <Alberth> so you must install from source, I guess
17:03:57 <nekomaster> i wouldn't know how to do that
17:04:48 <Alberth> pypi has the sourcecode, now to find the install command :)
17:06:26 <Alberth> likely something along the lines of installing ply
17:06:54 <nekomaster> i already have ply
17:07:05 <nekomaster> did I mention my head hurts?
17:07:30 <nekomaster> I litterally mean that, I dont understand anything here
17:07:50 <Alberth> the procedure is mostly the same, I mean
17:08:30 <nekomaster> I dunno where to put it
17:09:02 <Alberth> we need to unpack and install it, so some temporary directory is fine
17:09:31 <Alberth> in your home directory, for example
17:09:47 <nekomaster> I just put it in C:\Tempo
17:09:56 <nekomaster> where I put the source for NML and Ply as well
17:10:09 <Alberth> you can run linux commands there?
17:10:27 <nekomaster> already have commandline open and i'm in bash
17:10:43 <nekomaster> cd /c/tempo/chameleon
17:10:51 <Alberth> in that directory, enter tar xzf pyramid_chameleon-0.3.tar.gz
17:11:02 <nekomaster> its already unpacked
17:11:12 <nekomaster> chameleon is the directory I unpacked it to
17:11:36 <Alberth> there is a setup.py file there?
17:13:25 <Alberth> python3.4 setup,py install
17:14:11 <nekomaster> its doing things now
17:14:26 <Alberth> hopefully the right things :p
17:14:54 <Alberth> it's a pity there is no ubuntu package for it, would have been cleaner and simpler
17:15:22 <nekomaster> and road hog still errors
17:15:32 <nekomaster> ImportError : no module named 'markdown"
17:15:56 <Alberth> let me see what I have installed here
17:16:19 <nekomaster> hopefully I don't have to download every library for ubuntu just to compile road hog
17:17:09 <Alberth> every library is a few thousand packages :p
17:18:11 <andythenorth> oh it was markdown not docutils :)
17:18:29 <andythenorth> I work on multiple projects, some use one, some use the other
17:19:21 <nekomaster> though the thing is, roadhog also looks very complicated
17:20:25 <Alberth> sudo apt-get install python3-markdown should do the trick, I think
17:20:38 <andythenorth> nekomaster : Road Hog is complicated because you have to draw the graphics precisely
17:20:51 <andythenorth> on the other hand, it automates all the cargos /\o/\
17:21:09 <nekomaster> the code for everything looks complicated
17:21:32 <Alberth> iron horse isn't exactly consistent with cargo graphics, slag gets different colours in different wagons :p
17:21:51 <andythenorth> Alberth: yeah, that needs fixed :)
17:22:32 <nekomaster> when things get too much for me like right now, I just feel like going back to bed
17:22:33 <Alberth> steel random graphics are great, keep those :)
17:22:53 <nekomaster> I'm use to things being like how I did with 2cc Trains or NARS Addon
17:23:58 <nekomaster> in the mean time, I can see a road-hog.tar now
17:24:04 <andythenorth> ach, trees need really compressed together on a steep slope
17:24:11 <andythenorth> nekomaster: anything in ‘docs’?
17:25:13 <andythenorth> when you run make, the docs folder should be automatically built
17:25:25 <nekomaster> and so is the grf and tar now
17:25:30 <nekomaster> make ran fine this time
17:25:41 <andythenorth> graphics are all in src/graphics
17:25:56 <andythenorth> as long as you don’t want to change *anything* about how RH works, it’s easy :)
17:25:57 <nekomaster> I saw that, but I'm still confused by how everything is set up
17:26:16 <andythenorth> there is a python source file for each vehicle
17:26:55 <nekomaster> Well for an American Road vehicle set, I'd like to at some point have Horses, Steam wagons/trucks, Early Buses/Trucks, Rigid trucks, Tractor-Trailer 18wheelers, and Doubles
17:27:29 <andythenorth> they’re all possible, except horses
17:27:35 <andythenorth> horses would need animation, which isn’t provided
17:27:46 <andythenorth> let’s make a ‘neko’ truck
17:27:49 <nekomaster> thats fine for now
17:27:57 <andythenorth> go to src/vehicles
17:28:20 <nekomaster> (btw I still have bash open jsut incase)
17:28:28 <andythenorth> copy ‘yeoman.py’ and rename the copy to ‘neko.py'
17:28:54 <nekomaster> ok done, then what, open it in Notepad++?
17:29:06 <andythenorth> you’ll also need to open the docs in a browser
17:29:14 <andythenorth> explorer should do it
17:29:28 <nekomaster> Yeah, thats all i have for a file explorer
17:29:31 <andythenorth> (open index.html)
17:29:48 <andythenorth> or chrome or firefox
17:30:17 <andythenorth> anyway open index.html, then go to ‘code reference’ and scroll to the end
17:30:48 <andythenorth> you need to find the last used ID
17:31:28 <nekomaster> I'm on the code reference page and the last id is the Nutbrook ID 960
17:31:42 <andythenorth> ok so we’ll use 970 for ‘neko'
17:31:45 <andythenorth> they go up in 10s
17:31:52 <andythenorth> so go to neko.py in notepad
17:32:03 <nekomaster> neko.py is still open in notepad++
17:32:10 <andythenorth> change the numeric ID to 970
17:32:28 <andythenorth> change the id to ‘neko’ (lower case)
17:32:37 <andythenorth> change the title to ‘Neko'
17:32:48 <nekomaster> Neko [Open Truck]?
17:33:06 <andythenorth> then go to src/rosters/brit.py
17:34:50 <nekomaster> ok, im back, and I have the brit roster open in notepad now
17:35:01 <nekomaster> nice that notepad++ has a tab feature
17:35:52 <andythenorth> find ‘merrivale’
17:35:54 <dlite> I have both iron and coal mine next to station, however, all of my engineering supplies seem to go only to the coal mine. is there any nice way of making something else happen aside of making a second station which only covers the iron mine and split the incoming trains evenly between stations?
17:36:04 <andythenorth> and add neko on a line after it, with a ,
17:36:28 <nekomaster> ok, thats done and done
17:36:38 <nekomaster> merrivale, neko, nettlebridge
17:36:52 <andythenorth> ok, scroll down, around line 110 or so, there’s the buy menu list
17:36:57 <andythenorth> you need to add neko there as
17:37:08 <andythenorth> you can choose where it goes in the order
17:37:27 <nekomaster> because line 110 is glenmore,
17:38:17 <andythenorth> I was guessing, my code is a bit different, because I have changes not in the main repo
17:38:31 <andythenorth> anyway, same thing, add it lower case, with a ,
17:38:45 <andythenorth> then one more step
17:38:58 <nekomaster> well I decided to go down to merrivale in the list there and then add "neko,"
17:39:06 <andythenorth> now src/graphics/vehicles
17:39:19 <andythenorth> find yeoman_template.png, copy it, rename copy to neko_template.png
17:39:30 <andythenorth> then check all files are saved, try make
17:40:56 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd
17:42:54 <nekomaster> I wonder though, can road hog do small early trucks/buses, and long 18-wheeler trucks?
17:43:59 <nekomaster> Because gotta consider that American stuff tends to be bigger then british stuff
17:44:07 <nekomaster> partially because of the long nose trucks
17:44:20 <andythenorth> look in the docs - ‘road vehicles’ page
17:44:48 <andythenorth> max length of any single unit is 8/8
17:45:13 <nekomaster> I think 8/8 would only be needed for long 3 axle trailers
17:45:18 <andythenorth> min length is probably 3/8 or so
17:45:30 <andythenorth> I can’t remember what lengths I made the offsets for
17:45:57 <nekomaster> well I imagine that if I stay in the same places as the templates things should be fine
17:47:15 <andythenorth> I made a truck with 4 trailers :P
17:47:26 <nekomaster> that would belong in the outback
17:47:30 <nekomaster> not in North america
17:47:30 <andythenorth> go back to neko.py
17:47:38 <dlite> andythenorth: I can't seem to figure out, keywords to search help from wiki?
17:47:41 <nekomaster> just have to open notepad++
17:47:56 <andythenorth> add a , to ‘cargo_length = 4'
17:48:53 <andythenorth> replace lines 16-19 with that
17:50:18 <nekomaster> ok so now bash -c "make -b -r -R"
17:50:42 <nekomaster> I love that I can call linux commands with 'bash -c "commandhere" '
17:52:02 <nekomaster> I added flashing pixles to the Neko_template and I found it quickly ingame
17:53:07 <nekomaster> and I have a 4 trailer neko truck
17:54:58 <Alberth> hmm, 30 lines error message for an unknown variable :p
17:55:06 <nekomaster> Lol, the Neko truck with 4 trailers takes so long to speed up with 100 tons of coal
17:55:15 <nekomaster> even with a 450 HP engine
17:55:27 <Alberth> decrease freight multiplier :)
17:55:42 <nekomaster> that only applies to rail vehicles
17:55:55 <nekomaster> I'm not seeing a weight multipler like x2 on my trucks
17:56:29 <nekomaster> what settings? openttd settings or road hog parameters?
17:56:56 <nekomaster> Yeah, it says Weight multiplier for frieght to simulate HEAVY TRAINS
17:56:57 <Alberth> or do freight multiplier settings only apply to trains? I hope not
17:57:15 <peter1138> there's a separate setting for trucks
17:57:15 <Alberth> :o sorry for the noise
17:57:35 <peter1138> or at least i thought there was :p
17:57:38 <nekomaster> but no, the trucks have a 100 ton capacity thanks to andy's shinadigans
17:57:48 <peter1138> ah no, i was thinking of the slope
17:58:39 <nekomaster> I wonder how I should procced from here, because I'd rather work with a clean slate rather then say, adding stuff to road hog at the moment
17:59:29 <nekomaster> PLus another issue is that if I make a Semi-Generic American Road Vehicle set, now i have to make graphics... blargh
17:59:35 <nekomaster> i hate doing sprites
18:01:05 <nekomaster> nope, its your imagination
18:01:08 <nekomaster> there is no cat there
18:07:43 <andythenorth> nekomaster: to start again, you’d need a new roster
18:08:10 <andythenorth> you don’t have to use Road Hog, I just wanted to show you the option :)
18:08:30 <nekomaster> well if roadhog can easily deal with all kinds of sizes, it might be nice
18:08:43 <andythenorth> dlite: you have to make a second station
18:08:53 <andythenorth> it’s one of the annoying things about supplies
18:11:47 <nekomaster> Hmm, I wonder when the Semi-Trailer generations should start, techincally Mack started selling Articulated trucks in the 30's and 40s, but 18-wheeler culture didn't start until the 70's
18:12:10 <nekomaster> having Semi-trailers start in the 70's could keep them from overlapping with the Rigid trucks as well
18:12:39 <Samu> what does it mean Identifier not found... damn it
18:13:00 <Samu> Severity Code Description Project File Line Suppression State Error C3861 'GetAvailShipTracks': identifier not found openttd D:\OpenTTD\trunk\src\ship_cmd.cpp 155
18:13:15 <andythenorth> nekomaster: all articulated, all the way...
18:13:41 <nekomaster> andythenorth: Remember, not all trucks in North America are 18-wheelers
18:14:01 <nekomaster> most of the trucks I see in the city are things like 5-ton trucks/rigid trucks
18:14:16 <nekomaster> Its only on the major roads that I see the majority of 18-wheelers passing through oshawa
18:14:56 <Alberth> Samu, perhaps GetAvailShipTracks does not exist?
18:15:20 <Samu> Severity Code Description Project File Line Suppression State Error (active) argument of type "const Ship *" is incompatible with parameter of type "Ship *" openttd d:\OpenTTD\trunk\src\ship_cmd.cpp 159
18:16:40 <Alberth> const Ship and Ship are different, the former has an additional promise you won't change the content of Ship
18:17:24 <Alberth> so you cannot use a const Ship as substitute for a Ship, since the code using the latter may make a modification
18:18:38 <peter1138> "Dear uploader, your heightmap is broken"
18:18:43 <Samu> i see, it seems i can't use these then
18:18:55 <Samu> i don't want to change ship
18:22:27 <Alberth> either find a pointer that is not const, or change the code of the sub-routine to take a const Ship pointer
18:22:44 <Alberth> latter is likely non-trivial
18:23:30 <Alberth> (adding "const" is easy, but making it compile again can be difficult)
18:25:59 <Samu> i'm not really sure what I want though
18:26:00 *** FLHerne_ has joined #openttd
18:26:01 <nekomaster> Another thing that will be difficult with making an American style Road vehicle set is what to add without being too much for me to handle
18:26:31 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd
18:26:49 <nekomaster> but I really want to add things like Cargo Vans and Delivery Trucks/Cube Vans for town cargo stuff, as well as seperate Mail and Armored Trucks
18:27:13 <nekomaster> on top of the Steam, Early Petrol, Rigid, Semi-Trailer, and Double's Truck's
18:33:35 <nekomaster> hmm, is andy still around?
18:36:01 <nekomaster> I wonder if Road hog's code can also handle stuff like Light Rail Transit and metro stuff
18:36:14 <nekomaster> Then again not like theres too much LRT stuff in north america
18:36:32 <Alberth> but he may be busy, if you're in no hurry, just type "andy" and the words you want to say, and wait
18:37:02 <Alberth> if you need him specifically, and now, then mention his username, and he'll get highlighted
18:37:15 <nekomaster> I've been around on IRC since 2008
18:37:21 <nekomaster> mostly on FurAffinity though
18:37:44 <Alberth> andy tends to leave and join again multiple times during the day :)
18:38:29 <andythenorth> I tend to go away and placate screaming children
18:38:36 <Alberth> so when he's not available, a feasible strategy is to wait until he joins again
18:38:36 <andythenorth> or rescue them from disasters
18:38:45 <andythenorth> at least 1, not more than 2
18:39:03 <Alberth> excluding firs, roadhog, ironhorse, and squid :p
18:39:04 <nekomaster> andythenorth: Hey Andy, if your there can Roadhog Handle Subways/metro stuff? I've already seen that we can have many trailers added to trucks/trams, but can we have length refits like in HEQS?
18:39:29 <andythenorth> no, I think they’re weird :)
18:40:05 <andythenorth> refits using cargo subtype are usually a bad idea
18:40:13 <andythenorth> although they’re in unsinkable sam :(
18:40:20 <andythenorth> and I don’t like it, but eh
18:41:10 <nekomaster> I would like to have Metro stuff on tramlines, that way in the future if someone makes an elevated rail hack for RATT's then I'll have something
18:41:20 <nekomaster> plus I always wanted american style blocky subways
18:41:29 <nekomaster> great for local metro stuff
18:41:59 <andythenorth> if you want metro as trams, just use the trams ;)
18:42:57 <nekomaster> I do plan on having american styled Streetcars
18:43:15 <andythenorth> it took a long time to do Road Hog, I’d set a limited goal ;)
18:43:48 <andythenorth> first commit was 2013, and released last year, so ~3 years
18:43:51 <andythenorth> with Dan helping
18:44:05 <nekomaster> Well at the moment I'd at least like to get the Early, Rigid, Semi-Trailers and maybe Doubles going
18:44:12 <andythenorth> I would do buses or trucks
18:44:24 <nekomaster> oh yes, I keep forgetting about he busses
18:44:35 <andythenorth> buses are quite forgetable
18:44:38 <nekomaster> only thing is though about early stuff is they're so weird
18:44:53 <nekomaster> tiny hoods and curvy blocky bodies
18:44:56 *** gelignite has joined #openttd
18:45:05 <nekomaster> like 1910's or 1920's trucks/buses
18:45:35 <nekomaster> funny thing is that in the past I was able to do sprites but not code
18:45:40 <nekomaster> but now I loath doing sprites
18:45:54 <andythenorth> the Honister dump truck would give you a basic 6 axle rigid bonnet truck from 1940s-1960s
18:45:57 <andythenorth> looks like a GMC
18:47:12 <nekomaster> Yeah, probably more 60's style
18:47:21 <andythenorth> or more like a mack even
18:47:25 <nekomaster> Trucks from the 40's and 50's where more curvy
18:52:37 <nekomaster> Looks like the current best Mercedes Sprinter (the 3500 Super-high roof) can haul up to 2.5 tons of goods IRL, though I wonder how much I could fudge that number to make it worth while for a light route ingame
18:52:56 <nekomaster> Being a current generation Cargo Van, perhaps 4-8 Tons?
18:57:36 *** smoke_fumus has joined #openttd
19:03:04 <andythenorth> I wouldn’t do less than 15
19:04:07 <andythenorth> there’s a capacity parameter for people who want more realistic
19:04:08 <nekomaster> Heres some stuff I was thinking of doing over time
19:04:39 <nekomaster> I'd rather keep cargo vans and delievery trucks as small light duty stuff, perhaps for serving small towns or low output industry
19:05:05 <nekomaster> But for anything more you'll want to go for Rigid or Semi-Trailer trucks
19:05:24 <andythenorth> the trade off I see is this
19:05:32 <andythenorth> 1. small vehicles don’t get used
19:05:43 <andythenorth> 2. drawing vehicles is boring
19:05:50 <andythenorth> conclusion: don’t draw any that won’t be used
19:06:06 <nekomaster> well for now thats why I just want to focus on the regular trucks
19:06:09 <andythenorth> but I had to learn the hard way :P
19:06:19 <andythenorth> so many deleted sprites :P
19:08:12 <nekomaster> I'm the kind of person that likes to add lots of things, even if they wont always be used
19:08:35 <nekomaster> Thats kind of why I made the NARS addon set to add more north american locomotives
19:15:17 <nekomaster> Well thats why for now I'll just be focusing on the more important stuff that players will probably use
19:17:19 <peter1138> 4096x4096, such embigness
19:17:31 <andythenorth> nekomaster: if you draw a sleeper behind the neko truck, you pretty much have a peterbilt or kenworth
19:17:36 <andythenorth> peter1138: how silly
19:17:54 <andythenorth> are you testing how improved rivers work on big maps? o_O
19:18:18 <nekomaster> well i guess its "go big or go home"
19:19:43 * andythenorth goes back to yak-shaving forests
19:23:11 <peter1138> "very low" towns is still far too much on this size
19:23:18 <peter1138> maybe due to the amount of water, i dunno
19:23:38 <peter1138> does that scale? i guess not
19:24:36 <andythenorth> doesn’t scale with water
19:24:56 <andythenorth> I sometimes use bigger map and lots of water to get industry density I want
19:26:27 * andythenorth has a solution for that, it’s just tedious to test
19:26:29 <nekomaster> what are you trying to do?
19:26:37 <nekomaster> slope aware forests?
19:26:47 <andythenorth> slope aware forests with the trees in the right place
19:26:52 <andythenorth> it’s been buggy in FIRS for years
19:27:09 <andythenorth> it’s just offsets
19:27:37 <nekomaster> Another thing is with a North american vehicle set, I wonder which generations/decades I should go with for each type of vehicle
19:27:57 <andythenorth> nekomaster: new generation about 30 years
19:28:05 <andythenorth> I never solved that tbh though
19:28:28 <andythenorth> every grf is either too long to wait, or too many new vehicles in a short time
19:28:55 <nekomaster> I was thinking for Internal combustion engine busses, it would be maybe 1890, 1900, 1915, and 1930
19:29:21 <nekomaster> After which busses start taking on the shapes we know in america today
19:31:06 <nekomaster> But after the "early" generation, I dunno which decade to really start with, be it 1940 or 1950, I was thinking that the First generation of rear engined busses would start with something like the GMC Old looks
19:31:25 <nekomaster> And the last would be something from today
19:33:39 <Alberth> andy, have you ever tried replacing 1 engine every decade or so, so you have a new generation for all train types in 30 or so years?
19:34:29 <peter1138> andythenorth, "maximum coastal distance" in firs, is that actually from the coast, or from the edge of the map?
19:34:42 <andythenorth> probably the coast, but eh
19:35:38 <nekomaster> Hmm... can Road Hog do Articulated busses?
19:35:49 <andythenorth> hmm is that the right check for FIRS?
19:38:09 <andythenorth> not sure what that check does
19:38:41 <andythenorth> I didn’t write it
19:38:51 <andythenorth> I suppose I could read nml docs eh
19:39:31 <andythenorth> "If the industry is built on water, this variable gives the distance of the closest dry land tile, otherwise it gives the distance of the closest water tile."
19:39:51 <andythenorth> so it’s a flip-flop check, depending on current tile type
19:39:56 <andythenorth> I love that crap :|
19:40:19 <nekomaster> You seem to hate a lot of things you've had a hand in making
19:41:23 <peter1138> stuck on industry generation now ;(
19:42:41 <andythenorth> so yeah, that is a max distance check
19:42:56 <andythenorth> nekomaster: articulated buses, you just add more units
19:43:09 <andythenorth> consist.add_unit() adds an articulated part
19:43:51 <nekomaster> Because I was thinking perhaps maybe having Single Unit Local Busses and Articulated Local buses, and dropping the regional busses because it seems like most transit companies in North america use the same kind of bus for regional and local routes
19:44:08 <andythenorth> try it with one of the buses, like the glenmore
19:44:20 <andythenorth> oh you’d have to modify the spritesheet actually
19:44:35 <andythenorth> if you do add_unit() you have to give it sprites
19:44:55 <andythenorth> if you do ‘repeat = x’ then it will repeat the unit with same sprites
19:45:16 <andythenorth> there are no docs or anything for this though, just the code :P
19:45:51 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: Commit by translators :: r27828 /trunk/src/lang (4 files) (2017-03-25 19:45:40 +0100 )
19:45:52 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: -Update from Eints:
19:45:53 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: croatian: 2 changes by VoyagerOne
19:45:54 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: italian: 6 changes by lorenzodv
19:45:55 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: english (us): 15 changes by Supercheese
19:46:47 <Alberth> and andy, as walking documentation :)
19:47:31 <nekomaster> Also I probably wont be adding double decker buses, except maybe for the last (current day) generation of Coaches
19:47:34 <Alberth> or perhaps more appropriate, as walking oracle :p
19:47:54 <nekomaster> Where I live I've noticed more and more Double Decker GO Buses (regional/intercity bus company)
19:47:56 <peter1138> maybe 4096x4096 firs is not a good idea :p
19:49:28 <andythenorth> what did you do to it? :(
19:50:13 <andythenorth> 20k industries is totally ridiculous
19:50:20 <andythenorth> even AI won’t build 20k stations
19:50:46 <andythenorth> and map-gen is so slow
19:51:46 <nekomaster> Hmm... I guess if I can't find any "early" american buses, perhaps I have to make some fake american looking ones?
19:51:46 <peter1138> i think what i actually want is a crop of the heightmap
19:57:28 <peter1138> i guess autorefit only works if the station already has cargo waiting
19:58:20 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd
20:01:13 <andythenorth> to fixed cargo, or ‘any available’?
20:05:44 <peter1138> Samu, is a buoy a suitable site for an industry?
20:14:15 <nekomaster> I wonder how I should go about selecting busses to base designs and generations off of
20:14:35 <nekomaster> I know that for Coach busses, they should start in 1955 with something that looks like a GMC Scenicruiser
20:17:33 <andythenorth> nekomaster: I would select them by finding existing sprites :P
20:17:55 <nekomaster> well I want my sprites to match the size and "style" of Road Hog
20:18:13 <nekomaster> Though the Coach busses might end up having to be say, 8/8
20:18:20 <nekomaster> they tend to be rather long
20:18:32 <nekomaster> and usually have tandem axels
20:20:44 <nekomaster> It'd be nice if there where some "Bus" fans around that I could ask about popular/note worthy transit and coach buses
20:24:23 *** Progman has joined #openttd
20:35:36 <Samu> peter1138: are you talking about the bug i reported?
20:36:10 <Samu> it's the special water tile check
20:36:51 <Samu> the oil rig isn't built on them, but it requires checking if the nearby tiles are water
20:37:26 <Samu> buoys, for this case, are water
20:37:48 <Samu> but since the tile type of buoys is not water, it denies oil rig from spawning there
20:38:04 <Wolf01> The problem is that OTTD is very inconsistent in many cases, this is one of them: you can't spawn an oilrig next to a buoy but you can place a buoy next to an oilrig
20:38:34 <Wolf01> I found problems with docks too, where you can remove all the water after building the dock
20:41:23 <nekomaster> Heres an interesting thing for a North American commuter transit company
20:41:27 <Wolf01> I think the building condition should persist even after the building, but it's really tricky in some situations
20:41:40 <nekomaster> its interesting seeing these green GO Transit double deckers zooming along at 60-80 Km\h
20:41:58 <nekomaster> My dad likes the top front view
20:50:54 <andythenorth> 15 years is close
20:51:27 <nekomaster> Yeah but Coaches as we know it today didn't really start happening in USA until the 40's with the ACF-Brill
20:52:02 <nekomaster> I basically picked what was a fast and comfy coach style bus
20:52:14 <nekomaster> rather then some "fancy spruced up" Transit bus
20:58:14 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd
21:09:35 <peter1138> Samu, but I can build an oilrig next to a buoy without the patch?
21:34:01 *** Supercheese has joined #openttd
21:36:45 <Samu> you need to look at the layout
21:43:14 <Samu> this is the layout for oil ring, xx is where it checks for water
21:43:49 <peter1138> but not all the intermediate tiles? odd
21:44:19 <nekomaster> Wheres the link for the Road and Tram Types build?
21:44:24 <Samu> yeah it's a strange layout
21:45:31 <Samu> this layout was in some wiki page, i can't remember where
21:45:45 <peter1138> It's in src/table/build_industry.h
21:46:07 <peter1138> Wonder if it should all the tiles...
21:47:36 <peter1138> Also would be funny to have the check when terraforming
21:51:34 <andythenorth> so why is there malware in the FIRS pngs?
21:51:38 <supermop_home> need a cool sort of metabolist image to have printed on my phone case
21:52:02 <andythenorth> my OS must be smoking crack
21:52:12 <supermop_home> I feel like best way to acheive is to create a town set of abstract vector inspired houses
21:52:41 <supermop_home> and then try to get a neat town to grow
21:53:26 <supermop_home> andy - if openttd is a gpl'd program
21:53:43 <supermop_home> does any image created by the game become gpl itself?
21:55:04 <supermop_home> also the tower is only really brutalist under construction - at least in it's current state with all the verandas enclosed it just looks generic
21:55:47 <andythenorth> supermop: no absolutely not
21:56:00 <andythenorth> does anything created on linux become GPL?
21:56:11 <supermop_home> ok lets split some more hairs then:
21:56:33 <supermop_home> can a newgrf have gpl code and non gpl sprites?
21:56:45 <supermop_home> the resulting grf becoming gpl
21:57:04 <supermop_home> does that retroactively require the sprites to become gpl?
21:57:48 <andythenorth> newgrf is compiled
21:57:58 <andythenorth> it’s not quite an executable binary, but it’s a compiled package
21:58:03 <supermop_home> or can I as holder of copywrite on sprites grant a specific license to them to be used in a gpl project without releasig the sprites under gpl
21:58:55 <supermop_home> so it is not just derivative work, but also constituent work?
22:00:10 <andythenorth> you can release the sprites under other licenses, but you can’t escape GPL if it’s a GPL newgrf
22:00:27 <eekee_> gpl is not intended to (and i believe cannot) restrict the rights of the person who placed them under the gpl
22:01:48 <supermop_home> so releasing a later derivative work under gpl would retroactively force all prior contributive works to also take a GPL license?
22:02:43 <eekee_> i've heard that even the gpl's linking clause may be unenforcable, although that may be different in different US states
22:03:19 <eekee_> in general though, once you've released something, you can't retroactively specify a licence
22:03:41 <supermop_home> in the past I have, and in the future I plan to, created abstracted giclee prints of various metabolist and brutalist architectural inspiration
22:04:35 <supermop_home> none of which have been GPL, - in fact they have been in editions of 10 or 50, and sold when possible
22:05:07 <eekee_> i doubt there's any legal system anywhere on earth which says someone else applying the gpl to your work could restrict yuour rights
22:05:27 <supermop_home> I would like to create similar art, but at the scale and constraints of an openttd spritesheet
22:05:43 <eekee_> and i'm sure i've read richard stallman saying the gpl is not intended to restrict the author's rights
22:06:42 <eekee_> some propaganda might imply it does, but that's just the fsf being overly aggressive
22:06:49 <supermop_home> and use the mechanism of a town newgrf to aggregate such sprites into urban looking groups
22:07:15 <supermop_home> being able to re use town newgrf code would greatly help
22:07:46 <supermop_home> additionally, releasing the resultant grf would be nice
22:07:48 <eekee_> so it's your art, you hold the copyright. you can release it under gpl and under another licence, however you like
22:08:38 <eekee_> there are programs and whole operating systems which you can get under the gpl or a commercial license :)
22:08:47 <supermop_home> but if my goal is to use sprite->newgrf->game->town->screenshot-> print/other artwork
22:09:17 <supermop_home> do I maintain any copywrite control of that final artwork?
22:09:42 <eekee_> ah... screenshots i don't know about :)
22:11:01 <supermop_home> I can write new nml from the specs if I must
22:11:23 <Samu> I'm working on a "FindClosestReachableShipDepot"
22:11:31 <andythenorth> supermop: if you want to control it, don’t use a GPL newgrf
22:11:38 <andythenorth> make a private one
22:11:41 <Samu> i'm failing at the ship pathfinder, there's even 3 pathfinders
22:11:54 <eekee_> the worst thing about teh gpl is it scares people like this
22:12:00 <supermop_home> can I still release that under a more restrictive license?
22:12:35 <supermop_home> eekee_ I am happy with gpl for 90+% of what I do
22:12:49 <peter1138> What was the concensus on 90 degree pathfinding for ships?
22:13:00 <peter1138> Concensus in ottd, hahah
22:13:02 <nekomaster> I'm ok with GPL so long as people are ok with what I do
22:13:04 <supermop_home> and it is reassuring knowing that work I do will not be useless if I get tired of it and abandon it
22:13:48 <eekee_> peter1138: last i saw, it was merged with the 90 degree train turning option
22:14:20 <frosch123> probably it was like that in ttdp, and someone just did the same
22:14:28 <supermop_home> i am not expecting to monetize any newgrf generative artwork, but for purposes of portfolio inclusion I feel it would be easier if it was clear cut
22:15:02 <andythenorth> peter1138: forbidding 90 degree pathfinding breaks the game
22:15:09 <andythenorth> apparently that’s 'fine'
22:15:31 <eekee_> who's going to make a fuss if you've got something which might by some stretch be gpl'd in your portfolio?
22:15:43 <frosch123> andythenorth: why does it?
22:15:43 <andythenorth> possibly we could rename the setting :D
22:15:58 <andythenorth> ships get lost on rivers frequently
22:16:41 <andythenorth> probably I am the only player in the world using ships on rivers :)
22:16:56 <frosch123> with 90 degree forbidden ships cannot reverse on two tile rivers, with 90 degree forbidden ships cannot reverse on one tile rivers
22:17:18 <eekee_> i use buoys, but often not as many as i expect to need
22:17:22 <frosch123> so it only makes a difference if you build two tile things instead of one or three tile things
22:18:04 <andythenorth> that might explain it
22:18:16 <andythenorth> only way to build docks on rivers is two widen them to 2 tiles
22:18:25 <eekee_> reverse? my experience is ships reverse anywhere they can't actually turn
22:18:41 <eekee_> but i usually make dock space 3x3 :)
22:18:43 <andythenorth> and the problem mostly occurs leaving docks and turning the wrong direction
22:19:01 <frosch123> same happens for one tile things
22:19:12 <frosch123> it just means that the ship will reverse
22:19:23 <frosch123> as in 180 degree reverse
22:19:26 <andythenorth> tropic doesn’t make rivers? o_O
22:19:30 * andythenorth never noticed that
22:19:42 <frosch123> it even removes desert around them
22:19:48 <andythenorth> the code says that
22:20:01 <frosch123> though ofc mhl may have broken it :p
22:20:07 <frosch123> mhl may have broken everything
22:20:12 <andythenorth> 512x512 map, 1 river :P
22:20:47 <andythenorth> it’s probably just too flat to locate any springs? o_O
22:22:07 <andythenorth> do I have some local bug? o_O
22:22:22 <frosch123> andythenorth: disable variety distribution
22:22:28 <frosch123> set max height to 16
22:22:34 <nekomaster> I wonder if I should add a school bus or two as a bit of a joke transit option
22:22:53 <eekee_> include a short bus :)
22:23:01 <nekomaster> A long bus a mini-bus
22:23:06 <andythenorth> frosch123: surprising difference eh
22:23:11 <andythenorth> try it on height 32
22:23:15 <nekomaster> 12 and 24 passenger capacity, provides increased incomes
22:23:26 <Samu> i like the idea of forbidden 90 degrees for ships, but only as a separate setting from trains
22:23:42 <eekee_> Samu: yeah, separating them is good
22:24:00 <Samu> sometimes i want 90 degrees for trains but not for ships
22:24:13 <Samu> i made a patch about it, posted in the forum the other day
22:26:24 <Samu> hmm, so i made the pathfinder do a FindPath to I have no idea where... I'm so bad at this
22:26:59 <Samu> the result however is that it couldn't find a path
22:28:17 *** andythenorth has left #openttd
22:46:12 *** chomwitt has joined #openttd
22:51:48 <peter1138> Was there ever a daylength patch that didn't screw up the economy?
22:54:03 <Wolf01> I was working on it, lost interest
22:54:17 <Supercheese> although it depends on what's considered a bug and what's considered a feature
22:54:30 <peter1138> Just trying out the one in JGR's pack.
22:56:11 <peter1138> I guess: payment rates will be higher as it takes less days to travel
22:56:41 <peter1138> But also, it takes longer to produce cargo in the first time
22:59:38 <Wolf01> Just see it based on real time: at 1x you produce 100t/month/1-minute, with 4x you produce 400t/month/4-minute -> 100t/minute won't change
23:00:22 <Wolf01> Same happen for cargo payment, running costs...
23:01:00 <Wolf01> The only real change is that new vehicles will be introduced 4 times late
23:01:48 <Wolf01> Also vehicle life in real time is 4 times longer
23:02:47 <Wolf01> But for game time is the same, 1x or 4x doesn't matter, ok, you will get rich early (game date) but you have played for the same time (real time)
23:07:09 <peter1138> Not with this patch.
23:07:38 <peter1138> This one basically suspends all but vehicle ticks.
23:07:42 <Wolf01> That's mine wanted-to-be implementation
23:07:54 <nekomaster> Ungh, sometimes I hate trying to research really old vehicles
23:08:10 <nekomaster> its like anything before 1920 is wiped off the face of the earth
23:08:39 <Wolf01> Eh, no internet back in those days ;)
23:09:04 <nekomaster> but you can't tell me that no pictures, books, documents, anything on paper didn't exist or survive?
23:09:14 <Wolf01> Maybe noone gave a fuck
23:09:53 <nekomaster> "righty o! lets just toss these schematics and specs into the fire ol chap!"
23:09:53 <nekomaster> -dumb ass bus designer cira 1910
23:11:02 <Wolf01> It was a time where new, better things were developed every odd day, so why keep useless schematics and pictures?
23:11:49 <Wolf01> It's at our day we have nostalgia of those things
23:12:04 <nekomaster> like all I wanted to do was try and find some evidance of any motor buses from 1890 to 1925
23:12:07 <peter1138> Clearly we have too much free time.
23:12:22 <nekomaster> basically what ever came before the Ford Model TT bus in 1917
23:12:46 <nekomaster> I should mention I'm looking for Motor Buses in America before 1925
23:13:05 <peter1138> Maybe there wasn't any!
23:13:07 <Wolf01> Maybe nothing... they used trams
23:13:17 <nekomaster> but it looks like that it was mostly tram or horse up until stuff like the Model TT Bus came out
23:13:59 <nekomaster> I guess for my Generic American Road Vehicle Set, I'll just have to make up some fictional ye olde 1900's style bus
23:14:55 <peter1138> Cool swedish bus with skis...
23:15:01 <peter1138> But that's 1920. And not American.
23:16:59 <nekomaster> I have not seen that
23:17:18 <nekomaster> and I know that Trams where a bit thing int he late 1800's across the world including USA and Canada
23:17:34 <nekomaster> Even Toronto had some early street car stuff before electrification
23:17:39 <Wolf01> It seem everyone used trams or own cars, cabs and bicycles
23:17:59 <Wolf01> There is no mention of buses in early 1900
23:18:02 <nekomaster> Yeah, I guess the idea of a Motor Bus/Coach wasn't big with Americans at the time
23:18:20 <nekomaster> I believe there are some early steam and petrol busses in the 1890's or 1900's
23:18:23 <nekomaster> but mostly in europe
23:19:10 <Wolf01> "Buses began replacing trolleys in the 1910s. "
23:19:49 <nekomaster> Hmm, yeah, seems like the first mass produced Motor buses where produced in 1910's, the B-type double decker
23:20:19 <nekomaster> but this is America! hell I didn't start seeing double decker buses in Canada until go transit started buying and running double decker coaches from 2008 onwards
23:25:22 <nekomaster> Perhaps I'll just have horses or steam wagons take up that 1900 spot for early buses
23:41:40 *** JacobD88 has joined #openttd
23:44:19 <nekomaster> or I could just steal the Daimler/Benz Omnibus
23:44:33 <nekomaster> for a 1900's bus, and I'll slap American flags across it!
23:49:27 <nekomaster> So heres a rough list of Bus Generations for my Generic American Road Vehicle Set
23:53:02 <Wolf01> Nice collection of buses... do you plan to add trucks and trams as well?
23:53:35 <nekomaster> I'm just getting stuff in order before I start trying to make some crappy sprites that I really don't want to draw because I'd rather be coding then drawing right now
23:53:47 *** Biolunar has joined #openttd
23:54:00 <nekomaster> Also I'm using those buses as references for designs, not using the actual buses themselves
23:54:26 <nekomaster> Kinda like how Road Hog's British roster might look like some things you know from the UK
23:54:29 <Wolf01> Use colour filled boxes as placeholders
23:54:58 <nekomaster> I'd rather have a crappily drawn sprite and the dates all set out
23:55:19 <nekomaster> thats another thing too, I'm setting up the generations based on when those buses where built/available
23:55:34 <nekomaster> so not all dates are their build dates, and some are a bit early
23:55:35 <Wolf01> It would be nice to have it compatible with NRT too
23:55:51 <Wolf01> Trolleybuses and steam trams
23:56:05 <nekomaster> I might not do trolly busses
23:56:26 <nekomaster> they're not a huge thing around the world, I mean only a couple cities in North AMerica use them
23:56:48 <nekomaster> And most places seem to keep the same trolly buses for a long time
continue to next day ⏵
