IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-03-02
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00:04:48 <Samu> Wolf01: what kind of formula
00:05:13 <Samu> or equation, or algebra, whatever the term is
00:05:44 <Samu> to make a high value return an exponentially higher value
00:05:58 <Samu> more wagons, exponential cost
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00:26:45 <supermop_> nmlc claims there is an unknown token "," at line 84
00:27:04 <supermop_> is it just me or is there no "," at line 84?
00:27:24 <Wolf01> Is the comment on top fully commented?
00:27:50 <Wolf01> You need to // every line
00:29:46 <supermop_> i forgot 'date' before the intro date
00:30:02 <supermop_> wolf its all one line in my nml file
00:31:12 <supermop_> ill /* */ it but nmlc hasn't complained about that yet
00:36:58 <supermop_> now its complaining abt ground tile templates, but those are the same as from my last grf
00:41:02 <supermop_> unexpected token: "ground_tile"
00:43:23 <Wolf01> Are you sure it doesn't need some ; or ,?
00:44:23 <supermop_> i didnt have any of those in docklands
00:46:04 <supermop_> i could not use those templates i guess
00:48:50 <supermop_> oooh oops. accidentally had half of the sprite stuff commented out for some reason
00:54:30 <Wolf01> Also you can't use /* */ comments to comment other /* */
00:55:00 <Wolf01> Like /* ...... /* text */ ..... */
00:57:07 <Wolf01> Oh, did you read my suggestion about minecarts? :P
01:00:13 <Wolf01> Let's see what you have done
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01:31:31 <Samu> i'm so bad with formulas
01:34:56 <supermop> Wolf01: does it work? I haven't tried it yet
01:35:49 <supermop> I need lots of thinking to figure out the ratio of costs, dates, speeds, etc
01:36:12 <Wolf01> It seem to work, I didn't try everything
01:36:46 <supermop> well I'm back at home now so maybe I can give it a try
01:36:57 <supermop> Samu: I am not good at math
01:37:03 <Wolf01> The only thing which is confusing is that you need to look at the available vehicles before building a roadtype
01:37:18 <Samu> how to create an exponential growth formula
01:37:54 <Wolf01> For example andy's HAUL is used only for wood and I keep using it for coal
01:38:59 <supermop> haul is weird because as I recall in early game it only has a wood truck, and in late years it only has a coal truck I think
01:39:19 <Wolf01> Oh, lol, that's really weird
01:39:34 <supermop> maybe more are to come, idk
01:39:35 <Samu> final_cost = cost_at_this_point + cost_at_this_point * length_of_parts_without_cost / (2 * max_train_length);
01:39:40 <Samu> this formula is linear :(
01:39:54 <Samu> how to turn it exponential
01:40:18 <supermop> I don't understand - why is the cost of any part of a train dependent on other parts of the train?
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01:40:35 <Wolf01> Because he thinks it's right
01:41:06 <supermop> the only things I can think of is stuff like if I couple 3 diesel locos together they use 3x the fuel, but still only need one crew
01:41:30 <supermop> but steam locos need 3x the crew and 3x the fuel
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01:42:57 <supermop> plus maybe someone to climb back between the locos to let the other crews know when to syop
01:43:32 <supermop> but that still is basically a linear growth
01:47:28 <supermop> is there enough visual difference between trolleywire types?
01:47:39 <supermop> i still need to add modern catenary
01:50:12 <Wolf01> Trolleywire is broken on half tile roads, btw
01:52:25 <supermop> well thats the point of testing
01:52:47 <supermop> mine carts could be viable
01:54:08 <Wolf01> Also with very long names I found another UI bug to fix
01:54:20 <supermop> hm I worried about that
01:54:31 <supermop> i need to make the names more concise
01:58:00 <supermop> whoa these offsets are really bad
02:00:46 <Wolf01> Mmmh, I can't understand why those fillers work in SE but not in normal game
02:04:07 <supermop> a few road types are missing
02:04:51 <supermop> and towns are somehow building asphalt paved road with speedlimit of 200kmh
02:05:38 <supermop> I don't even have a 200kmh road listed in game
02:06:10 <supermop> in nml HWAY is unlimited, but nothing is 200
02:06:49 <supermop> but asphalt road should be limited to 100
02:07:17 <supermop> time to do some investigating
02:07:30 <supermop> as to why ROAD didn't show up
02:08:34 <supermop> also the menu says 99 km/h
02:08:44 <supermop> but ? tool says 200 km/h
02:10:07 <supermop> well the people on forums asking for road speedlimts can be happy now
02:10:41 <supermop> no buses over 200km/h allowed in town centers
02:12:10 <supermop> maybe I should make ROAD type 0
02:15:15 <supermop> dirt road also has a speedlimit of 99 kmh
02:15:24 <Wolf01> If you need to reorder them there's the right flag
02:15:41 <Wolf01> Dirt worked for me, 49km/h
02:16:11 <supermop> dirt says 49 in the menu
02:16:25 <supermop> but using ? tool it says 99
02:16:35 <Wolf01> It might be a problem with the tool
02:16:52 <Wolf01> The buses I tried slowed down from 64 to 49
02:19:42 <supermop> bus works correct with speedlimits
02:20:11 <supermop> tool just seems to show like double the sppedlimit
02:20:19 <Wolf01> Mmmh, I can't understand what the UI doesn't like... for roads it works, for trams no
02:22:35 <supermop> tram test track also works with speedlimits
02:23:19 <supermop> my problem is that the first tram type is missing - rough tram without electric wire
02:24:20 <supermop> so i need to re order so that ROAD and ELRD, and RAIL and ELRL are always 0 and 1?
02:30:39 <Wolf01> Btw, it's really 199 the speed for road
02:32:11 <Wolf01> The weird thing is that you set 99, debug says 199 and UI says 200
02:36:16 <Wolf01> Which property is the max speed?
02:42:28 <Wolf01> Yup, it's somewhat scrambled the loading of roadtypes
02:42:50 <Wolf01> It seem to load ROAD twice
02:45:41 <Flygon> Wait, we have Roadtypes now?
02:45:49 * Flygon out of the loop for a few months @_@
02:46:21 <Wolf01> We are just talking, no roadtypes are even coded
02:46:36 <Flygon> Right. Sorry, figured something was up. :D
02:46:38 <Wolf01> All screenshots you might find are photoshop enhanced
02:47:18 <Wolf01> But we have NotRoadTypes
02:48:01 <Wolf01> And this one seem to work :P
02:50:59 <Wolf01> Just declare them in the right order and reorder with the property
02:51:06 <Wolf01> It should fix everything
02:54:38 <Wolf01> Fucking oneway button in tramway toolbar... now it works!
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03:13:50 <supermop> what happened to tram toolbar?
03:14:27 <Wolf01> The filler didn't work because there was a one way widget defined
03:14:36 <Wolf01> Tramway doesn't have "one way"
03:15:46 <supermop> the template for the trolley wire sprites was all wrong
03:17:17 <Wolf01> Single track won't happen, there are problems telling curves that they are one way
03:17:44 <supermop> was not really being serious
03:18:04 <Wolf01> But it could be a good pony
03:18:18 <Wolf01> Also, I think I should go to sleep now
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11:53:44 <Samu> bah, the suggestion of "use a NewGRF" seriously bothers me :o
11:56:30 <Samu> perhaps it's only me, who doesn't like of the idea of NewGRF
11:56:39 <Samu> when working with vanilla
12:03:03 <Samu> why is there no option to delete newgrfs in-game
12:21:34 <Samu> cargo type 0 means passengers, right?
12:45:59 <peter1138> But it's right. NewGRF is specifically there to change these features.
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13:10:00 <Samu> darn, nars is changing what is obvious
13:12:49 <Samu> nevermind, I was right, after all
13:13:04 <Samu> something * 0 is still 0 after all
13:13:18 <Samu> no matter if the factor changes
13:16:05 <Samu> imagine that there is some weird NewGRF that bases running costs on speed, like nars
13:16:23 <Samu> if the speed is 0, the running cost is /4
13:17:00 <Samu> the cost_factor is = whatever cost it is / 4
13:17:35 <Samu> now i got to imagine a wagon with no running cost assigned
13:17:44 <Samu> or imagine that nars has wagons with £0
13:18:03 <Samu> no no, that doesn't work
13:18:12 <Samu> i got to imagine a wagon with no running cost assigned
13:18:36 <Samu> this cost_factor is totally ignored, and that's wrong, i still have to account for it
13:25:41 <Samu> i must get the cost_factor first before checking if running_cost_class exists
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13:27:18 <Samu> as a matter of fact, OpenTTD order of evaluation doesn't matter, but for what I'm trying to do, it does matter
13:29:02 <Samu> I'm making so that non existant running_cost_classes will exist, and thus I need to take cost_factor into account
13:40:33 <Samu> how do I simulate a running_cost_class
13:45:00 <Samu> /* Wagons always have engine type 0, i.e. steam. */
13:53:31 <Samu> is this valid for all wagons, be them vanilla or newgrf?
13:53:46 <Samu> or can newgrf make diesel wagons and so?
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13:54:26 <aeor> 9 11 attacks, Did USA do it itself or it just let it happen?
13:54:26 <aeor> Did USA administration murder 3000 American citizen in 9 11 attacks to justify starting a war against iraq?
13:54:26 <aeor> If al-qaeda did it, why go to kill 2 million Iraqi?
13:54:28 <aeor> Some of the benefits Americans say they achieved after 9 11 attacks include:
13:54:28 <aeor> *constant flow of oil, which price is in continuous decline. Trump said he will simply take the Iraqi oil, and when he was told that Iraqi oil belongs to iraq he said there is no iraq(after usa destroyed it ).
13:54:30 <aeor> *Invasion of afghanstan with construction of not less than 14 american military base which give a close eye on china.
13:54:30 <aeor> *Removal of potential threat to isreal represented in iraq which throw isreal with more than 30 rocket after American assault on iraq during 2nd gulf war.
13:54:32 <aeor> So oil was the motive of the crime….
13:54:32 <aeor> Did Usa ambassador at iraq implicitly encourage Saddam Hussien to invade kwuit?
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14:32:40 <peter1138> Samu, to get a "real" running cost figure, keep a running total of the running costs and divide it by an appropriate length of time.
14:44:09 <crem> @calc 100000000000000000-1
14:44:09 <DorpsGek> crem: 100000000000000000
14:44:17 <Samu> what time is it, peter1138
14:45:16 <Samu> the time it took to transport the cargo from a to b?~
14:47:40 <Samu> crem, it mean I was able to turn the costs higher, based on the number of wagons
14:47:59 <Samu> it grows when there's more and more wagons
14:48:07 <Samu> i think exponential growth
14:50:26 <Samu> 246 per wagon for 1 wagon to 255 per wagon for 2 wagons
14:57:06 <Samu> the implementation is error prone
14:57:50 <Samu> bah... it was looking good, but it errors
14:59:21 <Samu> the order which I put the engines would dictate the final running cost
14:59:50 <Samu> an engine at the last would make it cheapest than an engine attached right after the front one
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16:34:39 <supermop_home_> pink one must be special
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17:08:02 <supermop_home_> base set road seems to still show up below tram
17:08:26 <supermop_home_> rough tramway underlay I erased some pixels to make the ballast look overgrown
17:08:50 <supermop_home_> but where a stripe occurs on baseset roads there is a big white spot there
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17:10:56 <supermop_home_> pylons for wires on bridges still kind of too wide
17:11:25 <supermop_home_> tunnels ok but not broken anymore
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18:27:03 <supermop> maybe ill just release as is
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18:44:08 <Eddi|zuHause> "it's somewhat not-broken, let's release it"... modern software development
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18:51:02 <supermop> once the glaringly obvious broken parts are gone, its too hard to decide what to fix next
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19:45:47 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27764 /trunk/src/lang (french.txt russian.txt) (2017-03-02 19:45:38 +0100 )
19:45:49 <DorpsGek> russian: 3 changes by Lone_Wolf
19:45:50 <DorpsGek> french: 6 changes by glx
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19:59:44 <frosch123> you may now have more grfs than i do
20:00:38 <Wolf01> supermop, I'll try it, now :P
20:01:59 <Wolf01> Oh, this night I mangled... ehm, I meant fixed the road_gui, there was a rogue "one way" button which broke the tramway building toolbar
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20:03:37 <Wolf01> I would like to change it so it wont place a single empty space in the middle of the toolbar when the title is too large, does it have problems with multiple resizing panels?
20:05:27 <Wolf01> supermop, it still has some double pass on loading ROAD
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20:07:04 <Wolf01> Also asphalt and highway look really the same, the only difference is the boundary line which is brighter in the highway
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20:10:12 <Wolf01> About the catenary for trolleybus, I think the highlight area should be moved to the point where the wire is attached, it seem to bow upside 'cause of the lightning
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20:11:02 <supermop> yeah i havent drawn separate highway/asphalt except for curbs
20:11:27 <Wolf01> BTW, it's really cool, congrats
20:11:53 <supermop> the idea for the wire is that it hangs down, so the parts closer to the attachment ar more diagonal and less flat
20:12:05 <supermop> and would reflect more light to the viewer
20:12:12 <Wolf01> Maybe too many pylons in the curves
20:12:53 <supermop> i kind of want the mess that you get at trolley wire curves, but i need to balance it
20:13:19 <supermop> the modern catenary doesn't yet have any wires holding the curves in shape
20:13:31 <Samu> i found SimYouLater agreeing with me, that is hard
20:13:36 <Samu> "It's easier to provide a toggleable feature to automatically apply it than to convince a NewGRF creator to add the feature by hand."
20:14:05 <supermop> highway certainly needs more pixel work
20:14:57 <Alberth> SimYouLater desperately wants your feature
20:15:39 <Samu> well, my patch doesn't have it toggleable, but it's something that I wanted to do
20:15:39 <andythenorth> it’s a bad feature
20:16:12 <supermop> isn't the point of trains in game that longer trains are more efficient?
20:16:24 <andythenorth> it increases code surface, increases settings complexity, and provides facets that will catch people out at some point
20:16:47 <andythenorth> it’s also highly prone to attracting foamers who will argue about the rate at which the additional cost is applied
20:16:54 <andythenorth> and will then want further settings for it
20:17:03 <supermop> if running costs scale with each unit of capacity same or greater rate as trucks
20:17:09 <Alberth> we have that, it's called C++ :p
20:17:32 <supermop> then trains just become stupid trucks
20:18:00 <Alberth> efficiency is a no-op in the land where you get more money than you can spend
20:18:19 <supermop> andythenorth: try my mess of poles and wire
20:18:40 <supermop> you'll need some trolleybuses
20:21:42 <Samu> "it increases code surface" what does this mean?
20:25:23 <Samu> oh, JGR is actually a guy
20:25:54 <NGC3982> i need a sas programmer.
20:26:34 <Samu> "niche feature" - that typo
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20:26:52 <frosch123> sounds like you only have ass programmers
20:31:59 <Alberth> Samu: "niche" is not a typo, I think
20:34:10 <supermop> now we just need trucks which can drive on dirt and gravel, but not road
20:42:17 <andythenorth> increased code surface = more crap to check if we want to change anything, plus more sources of bugs
20:47:33 <supermop> frosch123: is it possible to avoid drawing baseset roads under tram tracks?
20:48:11 <supermop> the white stripes of the road show through the ballast of my 'rough' tramway which i want to look overgrown
20:48:38 <frosch123> no, we need the baseset road for the roadside
20:48:56 <frosch123> you have to draw grass yourself
20:49:20 <supermop> can i replace the base set sprites?
20:49:36 <frosch123> sure, but it will affect the default roads :)
20:50:26 <supermop> like what if i keep the sidewalks but lose the road in the middle. i am already defining ROAD with its own underlay and overlay
20:51:34 <frosch123> if you replaced road, it should be fine
20:51:45 <andythenorth> only 97 CPP #defines left in FIRS :P
20:52:58 <supermop> otherwise i guess i just draw pixels and switch to change them from grass to sand
20:53:03 <andythenorth> on the upside, global CPP defines are really blunt and simple to use
20:53:15 <andythenorth> on the downside, having a python + CPP compile is bonkers
20:54:53 <Wolf01> frosch123, could you please have a look at supermop's grf code? It seem to be loading ROAD twice summing the max speed
20:58:45 <supermop> speedlimit is a bit high there :)
20:59:08 <frosch123> landinfo shows incorrect speed?
20:59:47 <supermop> landinfo is too high iirc
20:59:48 <Wolf01> Yup, but not only landinfo, even debugging RoadTypeInfo and newgrf loading code
21:00:06 <frosch123> Wolf01: there are different units for speed in ottd
21:00:30 <frosch123> for train speed 1 means 1 km-ish/h. for rv speed 1 means 0.5 km-ish/h
21:00:41 <Wolf01> No, it really pass 2 times for basetype 0 and subtype 0
21:01:03 <supermop> forexample, its show 200kmh for a 100 kmh road
21:01:04 <frosch123> i have no idea what you mean with that
21:01:35 <supermop> none of my buses are fast enough to take advantage
21:03:15 <Wolf01> RoadTypeChangeInfo in newgrf.cpp, if you put a breakpoint for property 14 and check the value and roadtype, it does some strange things with the first roadtype
21:04:10 <frosch123> Wolf01: those functions are always called twice
21:04:16 <frosch123> reservation stage and activation state
21:04:33 <Wolf01> With different values?
21:05:24 <Wolf01> And magically the sum of the values is exactly what the landinfo shows
21:05:43 <frosch123> landinfo shows just double the value
21:09:31 <supermop> is there a reason why?
21:10:17 <frosch123> pushed a fix for the landinfo window
21:10:55 <frosch123> supermop: landinfo expected unified speed unit, roadtypes gave roadvehicle-speedunit
21:11:02 <frosch123> the units differ by factor 2
21:11:49 <supermop> so a 100 kmh bus is only as fast as a 50kmh train? i never noticed this before
21:12:24 <frosch123> no, a bus can have a top-speed of 50.5 km/h, while trains can only have either 50 or 51
21:14:54 <frosch123> in ttd the fastest train could go 255 km/h, the fastest rv and ship could go 127 km/h, aircraft could go 7344 km/h
21:15:28 <frosch123> but all these values were equal to 255 vehicle-specific-speed-unit
21:20:09 <supermop> so what should i fix now, other than graphics?
21:20:22 <supermop> i have no idea if the costs make any sense
21:21:06 <supermop> would be nice to have certain 'non-invasive' upgrades on non-owned road
21:21:32 <supermop> like i cant convert a town street to highway, but i can hang trolleybus wires over it
21:21:53 <supermop> as is building a trolleybus line in town get a bit expensive
21:22:13 <Wolf01> You can't even make them one way...
21:22:40 <supermop> i guess one wa could be abused to trap competitor vehicles
21:22:43 <frosch123> supermop: if you can add trolleybus, can you also remove trolleybus?
21:22:59 <Wolf01> You can't convert town roads
21:23:05 <supermop> maybe if town owns it?
21:23:22 <Wolf01> But you can remove the road and rebuild your own
21:23:35 <supermop> who owns bankrupt company tramway?
21:23:45 <frosch123> noone, everyone can remove them
21:24:11 <supermop> frosch123: my idea if for a road type to have flagged 'safe' or polite upgrades
21:24:28 <supermop> so ROAD can be set to be convertable to ELRD
21:24:46 <supermop> but ELRD cannot be set to convertable to ROAD
21:25:08 <supermop> so i can only convert my own ELRD to ROAD, not the towns
21:25:52 <andythenorth> that was proposed before, and I was fairly resistant
21:26:15 <andythenorth> just seems complicated
21:28:58 <supermop> otherwise ELRD only works for trolly trucks at mine
21:29:14 <supermop> although andy likely is ok with that!
21:29:33 <frosch123> how about allowing any conversion of town roads, which is compatible to ROAD?
21:29:51 <supermop> there is an electric gravel road in that set with your name on it andy
21:29:51 <frosch123> resp. has the allow-house flag
21:30:01 <frosch123> that would also allow ELRD->ROAD
21:30:06 <supermop> frosch123: sounds fair
21:45:30 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: when he speaks german, is he speaking it for a foreign audience?
21:45:42 * andythenorth can mostly understand it
21:45:53 <Eddi|zuHause> no, he speaks for a german audience
21:46:23 <andythenorth> ‘mostly’ is quite over-stated :P
21:49:09 <andythenorth> well that’s going to ruin my YT ‘recommended’ videos for days :P
21:51:33 <frosch123> the upper shelf contains 3 interesting items
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21:51:58 <frosch123> but i cannot identify whether the model figure represents someone
22:00:28 <Eddi|zuHause> it has definitely a... recognizable... mustache
22:01:44 <glx> andythenorth: it's so easy to ruin them
22:02:49 <Eddi|zuHause> that's why i only open videos in private browsing windows where i'm not logged into anything
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22:41:45 <andythenorth> supermop: I’ll have a look at spool tomorrow :)
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23:57:26 <Samu> AMD new cpus actually disappoint
23:57:37 <Samu> despite all the hype they built
continue to next day ⏵