IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-02-20
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09:21:14 <V453000> do you even automate?
09:21:36 <Supercheese> Yes, Otto is my mate
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12:31:01 <__ln__> that would be more interesting if it was properly sourced
12:34:34 <Wolf01> Three laws of robotic needed as soon as possible
12:34:39 <__ln__> they should adapt it to be an openttd AI
12:35:28 <Wolf01> It's already pointing on starcraft, just to learn some warfare strategies
12:37:24 <Wolf01> Btw, it seem that intelligence brings to war, which is a nonsense
12:38:17 <crem> I hoped they finally they built a robor which can gather real apples from tree. But no, it's just some pixels on 8x16 screen.
12:39:03 <Wolf01> The principle is the same, we played with 320x200 games and even inferior resolution :P
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15:29:17 <Alkel_U3> in relation to that google's AI :-)
15:37:34 <Wolf01> It's too psychedelic, I can't follow it
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17:12:37 <dark_pingus> hi I'm looking for documentation on scenario file. I am interested to the structure of scenario file.
17:22:20 <dark_pingus> Wolf01, seems that the link had a lot of info! so probably you have really helped me! thank you again
17:23:09 <Alberth> not so much about the scenario file format
17:23:29 <Alberth> it's just a savegame, docs is the code, in src/saveload
17:23:43 <Wolf01> You should read it while looking at the code, at least it explains what are the numbers :P
17:24:43 <dark_pingus> yes ... these numbers was driving me mad ... I was trying somekind of reverse engineering ... using simple scenario and building a "road" at time...
17:25:42 <dark_pingus> I want to realize a tool to put a "city" in a given place in the scenario in an automatic way. BUT: proportionally to lat and long...
17:26:36 <LordAro> sounds like you want a gamescript
17:27:21 <Alberth> there is a patch "reproducable <something> generation" that also aims to create scenarios
17:28:31 <Alberth> unexpected qualities, just like that :)
17:32:22 <Alberth> ha, we didn't leave bugs, you are affected by cosmic rays, or energy fields :)
17:33:04 <Wolf01> Or "you are holding it with the wrong hand", that works too
17:36:00 <Alberth> I once read about error rates of cpus, I think, and while it was above 99.9<something>, given the high rate of these devices, you'd expect that errors do creep in sometimes
17:36:29 <Alberth> (likely it had more 9 figures :p )
17:37:44 <dark_pingus> LordAro I want to realize something that given a scenario with given lat e long, and a file of lat-long and name it puts the cities on the scenario ...
17:38:25 <LordAro> i think a GS should be able to do that
17:38:37 <LordAro> probably can't take an arbitrary file as input though
17:39:02 <Wolf01> As I studied electronics, and knowing that IRL nothing works like a charm, it's more like an over-voltage of any kind, maybe even a bad ground connection and the bit-shift was triggered with a static from a guy with a pullover/pile jacket
18:18:28 <dark_pingus> someone has other hints about the load/save code documentation ?
18:22:52 <Wolf01> The savegame/scenario might be compressed
18:23:49 <Wolf01> But if you don't need to use it outside the game...
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18:33:25 <dark_pingus> I have disabled compression to "none" in openttd.cfg
18:34:07 <dark_pingus> So, now I can use an hex editor to see save/scenario file contents
18:42:24 <Alberth> sounds a bit complicated if you can also read the source code
18:44:38 <dark_pingus> yeah I am just reading source code ...
18:44:47 <dark_pingus> (use the source luke! :-) )
18:45:16 <dark_pingus> but really I will love to have some nice documentation to read :-)
18:47:03 <dark_pingus> or maybe some nice comment embedded into the source code ! :-)
18:49:38 <Alberth> it's not a simple offset format
18:50:08 <Alberth> it's also not a fixed format, it changes every now and then
18:50:32 <Alberth> fields change or get added or get removed
18:50:53 <dark_pingus> Hi Alberth are you telling me that the scenario/save game format are unstable ?
18:51:12 <dark_pingus> are changing from a version to next one ?
18:51:28 <planetmaker> yes. Even more often
18:51:44 <Wolf01> We are at version 195 actually iirc :P
18:51:52 <planetmaker> ^^ around that, yes
18:52:09 <Alberth> extern const uint16 SAVEGAME_VERSION = 195; ///< Current savegame version of OpenTTD. <-- dark_pingus we're at version 195
18:52:10 <planetmaker> but it's all documented in the source. And also how it changes
18:52:16 <Alberth> see saveload.cpp, line 267
18:52:32 <dark_pingus> Can I ask why you/they are changing format so often ?
18:53:23 <dark_pingus> ok but I have seen "object" hooks into the code ... I was figuring that in a such way you can stabilize the format...
18:53:28 <Alberth> not to mention it's a save game, so it follows the internal storage format of openttd
18:53:44 <Alberth> so you pretty much have to rebuild a lot of openttd
18:54:04 <dark_pingus> And now are three hour that I am reading code to look for the internal format! :-)
18:54:11 <planetmaker> why? A stable format itself is no gain
18:54:37 <planetmaker> What we have is the 'promise' that we load savegames from all older versions
18:54:39 <Alberth> a loader and saver routine exists, it's openttd
18:54:56 <dark_pingus> planetmaker, why are you telling me so'? I am customed to have developing version and stable version ...
18:55:06 <planetmaker> yes, of the programme
18:55:29 <dark_pingus> if you can't port your data from a version to the next one
18:55:43 <dark_pingus> this seems to me a bad thing
18:56:02 <dark_pingus> a really bad one.
18:56:12 <planetmaker> you fail to explain why :)
18:56:14 <Alberth> old versions get loaded and converted in afterload
18:56:32 <planetmaker> what's bad about changing savegame format if we can load any version we ever created?
18:57:07 <Alberth> it's not simple, probably :)
18:57:12 <dark_pingus> planetmaker: nothing if you maintain compatibility with the data previuosly saved
18:57:28 <planetmaker> we do. And even beyond the start of this project into prehistoric age
18:57:41 <Alberth> all the way back to 200<something>
18:58:03 <dark_pingus> ok this is good... I have misunderstood your words .
18:58:10 <Alberth> as well as the original game
18:58:36 <dark_pingus> I can start to read the initial version...
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18:58:49 <dark_pingus> probably is more simple
18:59:08 <Alberth> my guess is, it's more confusing
18:59:40 <Alberth> dark_pingus: look at a few commits that change the line I indicated
18:59:53 <Alberth> that should give you a good idea how changes are handled
19:05:43 <dark_pingus> I will google to look for external tools to manage the scenarios :-(
19:13:34 <Alberth> but basically, there is only openttd that reads/writes save games and scenarios
19:13:50 <Alberth> there are patches for openttd, and probably a few game scripts
19:20:45 <dark_pingus> se seems that to have an object automatically placed on map, I have to :
19:21:14 <dark_pingus> get the loadsave ccp
19:21:44 <dark_pingus> then understand the resulting data structure
19:22:05 <dark_pingus> and you have told me that these things change frequently ...
19:22:41 <dark_pingus> I would daresay that I am unfortunate! :-)
19:24:07 <frosch123> openttd savegame are not self-descriptive
19:24:31 <frosch123> you cannot make a tool that can process all savegames there may ever be
19:24:42 <frosch123> only openttd can read its savegames, noone else
19:25:04 <planetmaker> it's an idea which frequently surfaces, though
19:25:06 <dark_pingus> yes I want it but I have found really few docs ...
19:25:07 <frosch123> a rare planetmaker :)
19:25:45 <dark_pingus> well now I have some other things to do ... but thank you all!
19:28:05 <dark_pingus> thank you frosch123
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19:36:26 <frosch123> damn... now there is a second submission for the title game
19:36:34 <frosch123> i hopes we could get away without having to vote
19:37:27 <frosch123> meh, and it's close to the troll submission :/
19:43:22 <frosch123> well, forum poll it is then
19:43:51 <frosch123> no secret vote, but good enough
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20:29:46 <Alberth> 0800-0CFF looks like an off-by 100, shouldn't that be 0800-0BFF ?
20:50:11 * andythenorth will count on fingers :P
20:56:36 <Alberth> :o lots of fingers andy
20:59:16 <planetmaker> millipede or so ;)
20:59:29 <frosch123> Alberth: that was an accident when forking
21:00:06 <frosch123> parallelized pixel pushing
21:04:09 <Alberth> Even milllipede isn't enough, only 750 legs
21:07:16 <planetmaker> too bad :) But I learnt something new :)
21:09:23 <andythenorth> it’s planetmaker :)
21:10:31 <andythenorth> that title game needs diagonal corners
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21:10:39 <andythenorth> pixel N glyphs are poor :P
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21:16:09 <Alberth> tempted to write func(void) instead of func(), written too much C lately :p
21:28:29 <frosch123> maybe try k&r c for once
21:29:09 <Alberth> ha, not old enough :p
21:29:54 <Alberth> ANSI had already taken over C when I learned it
21:30:21 <frosch123> i also only learned it when encounting it in production, and i wondered, why does this even compile :p
21:31:01 <frosch123> i never learned fortran either, but somehow it reminded me about it
21:31:53 * andythenorth is still learning python :P
21:32:19 * andythenorth wishes PHP_CEO was his twitter account :P
21:33:26 <planetmaker> is func(void) not good in C++? or talking about python, Alberth ?
21:33:30 <frosch123> andythenorth: anything that writes reserved words in all-uppercase, you can safely ignore
21:34:13 <frosch123> planetmaker: only if you put "extern C" in front :)
21:34:42 * andythenorth should knuckle down and refactor some FIRSes
21:35:50 <frosch123> he, when comparing a fortran77 tutorial with a fortran95 tutorial.. it mostly seems to differ in upper/lowercase
21:36:01 <__ln__> func(void) is valid in C++ but Stroustrup considers it ugly
21:37:41 <Alberth> planetmaker: I think it's deprecated
21:37:59 <Alberth> Python has no void type :)
21:38:26 <andythenorth> seems FIRS needs incompatible checks for “Preindustrial era houses” and “Oil rig layout"
21:39:37 <Alberth> the former makes sense, presence of FIRS would break the set :)
21:41:14 <andythenorth> definitionally :)
21:41:26 <andythenorth> I probably have to look up the grfids or something
21:41:29 <andythenorth> and put them in a templae
21:47:33 <planetmaker> I see :) So we did bad stuff when we recently hacked around Arduinos and stuff :P
21:52:33 <Alberth> there are enough C++ versions to choose from :)
21:53:01 <Alberth> iirc one of the earlier did do that, to stay compatible with C
21:53:18 <Alberth> fine V, thanks, how are you?
21:54:12 <planetmaker> fine as well :) And you? Still drawing factori(o)es
21:57:14 <V453000> drawing factorioes like mad, it's amazing
21:57:39 <V453000> learning new things every day, can't complain at all
21:58:00 <V453000> I feel fully utilized, we're planning some seriously crazy things visually
21:58:44 <Alberth> V is slowly turning into a programmer :)
21:59:02 <frosch123> Alberth: i just tried. --std=c++14 still compiles func(void)
21:59:40 <V453000> yeah, learning a lot of python, mainly blender python but normal python as well, is great
22:00:21 <frosch123> do pythons count as slugs?
22:00:41 <frosch123> or does english have a third term next to snail/slug?
22:01:45 <frosch123> meh, i am too tired or so
22:02:03 <frosch123> they seemed similar :p
22:02:33 <V453000> guess they should yeah
22:02:40 <V453000> it's just longer slug
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23:16:22 <DorpsGek> __ln__: I have not seen Gonozal_VIII.
23:21:51 <Eddi|zuHause> today's episode of "we dig up a name from 5 years ago"?
23:23:17 <__ln__> more or less, except DorpsGek was supposed to tell how many years.
23:25:26 <Eddi|zuHause> my logs say 2008
23:25:35 <Eddi|zuHause> and in 2010 DorpsGek already didn't know him
23:27:36 <__ln__> DorpsGek's clearly not an elephant then
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23:46:04 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: TrueBrain was last seen in #openttd 7 weeks, 1 day, 10 hours, 13 minutes, and 28 seconds ago: <TrueBrain> LordAro: it is working for me now (tm) :P
23:46:37 <Eddi|zuHause> he was superceded by the bot...
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